Auschwitz 60 anniversary

[xtc]

I believe today marks the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the notorious concentration camp, Auschwitz. I just wanted to take a moment here to acknowledge and remember it.

There seems to be a few posts on racism here today. It is important to remember what racism leads to.

[Ben]

I'm bakin up a fresh batch of swasticookies to remember it

[Nieninque]

Remember your pinny, Ben. Dont want to get your frock covered in flour

On Topic Content: The BBC's Auschwitz (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/games/auschwitz_map/index.shtml) site is gives a flash tour of the camps at Oswieçim.

[Edited on 28-1-05 by Nieninque]

My Grandfather had to go through hell in a camp. Luckily, the Soviets managed to liberate the camp on the day of execution. Fun for him, huh?

- Arkans

[HarmNone]

My family and I went there years ago. My grandfather really wanted to go, as he had fought in WWII. I tried, but was unable to accompany them on the tour. There was such a profound feeling of...I don't really know how to explain what I felt, but it was truly overwhelming...that I just couldn't go in. For me, the horror was still palpable.

[CrystalTears]

I don't think I could ever visit the site. I'm not Jewish and don't know anyone directly affected by it, but it hurts my soul to hear and see what they did to so many people.

I remember in high school we went on a field trip to the museum to see a memorial exhibit on the holocaust and I cried so hard reading and seeing everything that happened that I had to walk out. I just can't take that kind of abuse.

Dear People,

More than just Jews suffered in concentration camps.


Love,

Sturmbanfuherer Arkans

[HarmNone]

Most of us are well aware of that, Arkans. Your point?:moon2:

[CrystalTears]

Yes I realize it wasn't just Jewish people. They were, however, the majority of the ones thrown into Auschwitz.

Oh were they? I believe that it was Polish citizens that suffered the most under Nazi occupation.

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

OMFG.

http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl/html/eng/start/index.php


At first, Poles were imprisoned and died in the camp. Afterwards, Soviet prisoners of war, Gypsies, and prisoners of other nationalities were also incarcerated there. Beginning in 1942, the camp became the site of the greatest mass murder in the history of humanity, which was committed against the European Jews as part of Hitler's plan for the complete destruction of that people. The majority of the Jewish men, women and children deported to Auschwitz were sent to their deaths in the Birkenau gas chambers immediately after arrival. At the end of the war, in an effort to remove the traces of the crimes they had committed, the SS began dismantling and razing the gas chambers, crematoria, and other buildings, as well as burning documents.

[Tsa`ah]

Can I get a pwnd?

[Back]

Been to the Holocost museum in Tel Aviv. It was hard to walk through. Very humbling. But at the end was a very large garden with a tree planted for every goyim who directly helped a jewish person or family escape the horror.

As depressing as the museum was, the garden outside was that uplifting. At least to me, not being jewish.

[StrayRogue]

Jesus Christ, who cares which people died more? The fact that huge amounts of people were murdered should be enough for us all to realize the tragedy that happened 60 years ago, be they Jewish, Polish, Russian, American, English or anyone.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Can I get a pwnd?

FUCKING PWND!!!11oneoneONE

Courtesy of your friendly neighborhood Pagan :D

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Backlash
Been to the Holocost museum in Tel Aviv. It was hard to walk through. Very humbling. But at the end was a very large garden with a tree planted for every goyim who directly helped a jewish person or family escape the horror.

As depressing as the museum was, the garden outside was that uplifting. At least to me, not being jewish.

You'll find a similar experience at the war memorial in St. Petersburg, Russia (what was once Leningrad). It's really very moving.

Woah, woah, woah. These Jews were what? Just there? What citizenship did they hold? Are they special in some way? Could have sworn people were labelled by their nationality, but I guess they are special. Wait.. I'm Catholic, not American!

Then again, if you want real suffering, look how many Russians were slaughtered by the Germans on the East Front. Either way, I'm just tired of "It was Jews that suffered the most", please, have some loyalty to the country you are a citizen of.

- Arkans

[StrayRogue]

I'll give Arkans a fucking PWNED for that, as he's bloody right.

[HarmNone]

I never read the post in which someone claimed that ONLY Jewish people suffered. Anybody care to point me to it?

Not, but every post likes to focus on the Jews that suffered when they did not even suffer the most.

- Arkans

[DianaBanana]

Originally posted by Arkans
Woah, woah, woah. These Jews were what? Just there? What citizenship did they hold? Are they special in some way? Could have sworn people were labelled by their nationality, but I guess they are special. Wait.. I'm Catholic, not American!

Then again, if you want real suffering, look how many Russians were slaughtered by the Germans on the East Front. Either way, I'm just tired of "It was Jews that suffered the most", please, have some loyalty to the country you are a citizen of.

- Arkans

Actually in Poland it's different. If you are jewish you are seen as a jew, not polish. Even the jews themselves in poland for the most part dont consider themselves polish, but instead, jews. How do I know this? I have many polish immigrant friends. Having a difficult polish last name attracts polish friends it seems. :P

I'm Polish myself, born there, came over here, and all my relatives are Polish. To an extent, you are correct. Jews do not assimilate to the Polish culture, even though they live in that country and hold that countries citizenship. Fine, but they still are "Polish" no matter how you cut it. Just because you refuse to associate with the people that allowed you into the country, gave you citizenship and benifits does not mean you are expempt from being "Polish" officially.

It's like saying that the Korean family in New York that speaks no English whatsoever, but gained citizenship is not American or the Catholic family wants to be considered Catholic. They are American and will be.

- Arkans

[HarmNone]

Like I said, Arkans, nobody here said the Jewish people "suffered the most". You're putting words in peoples' mouths, and adding your own spin to what people are saying. That does not make an effective argument, one way or the other.

Then are Jews special in some way to always mention their suffering? Why not just generalize since just about everyone suffered under Hitler's regime. It's this way that facts get lost in history, unfortunately.

- Arkans

[Tsa`ah]

I would call gassing, starvation, disease, execution, slave labor, succumbing to the elements ... the long list as it is, suffering just as much as anyone else.

No where did I claim that Jews were the only people suffering at the hands of the Nazis, it was you claiming, and falsely, that the Polish were more in number.

All said and done, it doesn't matter. People were murdered, tortured, and forced into suffering over some bull shit notion that survives today.

I look at the tragedy without lines of separation. People in the camps were people in the camps. I reserve a place in my soul for the Jews as those were my ancestors, just as you probably and justifiably reserve room for the Polish. I’m jut not going to attempt the dropping of bull shit “facts”.

[HarmNone]

I think the point being made is that it doesn't matter who these people were, any more than it matters what creed to which they adhered, or what country in which they were born. What matters is, atrocities were committed against innocents. Mucking up the works with "these folks had it worse than those folks when it comes to being in concentration camps" is ludicrous in the extreme.

[StrayRogue]

I would imagine, Arkans, it has everything to do with location. Being that you guys are prediominantly American, you get the American perspective. How many Americans died in Aushwitz? Not many. But many Jews did escape to the US, and of course your country has a massive Jewish community. So perhaps your media presents such news and history to appeal to such an audience that can sympathize more easily.

In the European countries, believe me, the Jews are not the ONLY ones considered when it comes to Auschwitz and WW2 atrocities.

Once again, they were Polish citizens and believe they should be considered Polish, but I guess it is a special case for them. Fine.

Regardless, it is just not the fault of people here on the PC, but just about everywhere and every document that I have read on the topic of WWII that seems to focus on the loss of life caused by Hitler on the Jews. It begins to get tiring after a while.

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Like I said, Arkans, nobody here said the Jewish people "suffered the most". You're putting words in peoples' mouths, and adding your own spin to what people are saying. That does not make an effective argument, one way or the other.

Actually I DID say that Jews suffered the most (in numbers), because I felt they were, based on information I posted. If I'm wrong, I'll say I'm wrong, so someone can show me where I was, I'll admit it. In the end, millions of people died and it was sad and unjust, regardless of who was involved.

I don't dismiss anyone else that died to that bastard, but that doesn't mean I won't mourn the fact that Jews were the objective of Hitler's regime. So yeah, yell at me because I did say it.

Same as if a building exploded which contained mostly lesbians, sure there were straight people in that building, but because the focus was to exterminate the lesbians, those are the ones I'll cry for the most.

Denying that it wasn't mostly Jews and saying they were Polish is just semantics and starting to instigate a conflict where there shouldn't be.

[Edited on 1/28/2005 by CrystalTears]

[StrayRogue]

Read Stalingradt Arkans ;)
That atleast focuses on the Russian sacrifices made during the War. Sacrifices that won the war for the Allies, something that most Americans are either too proud or too ignorant to admit.

[Tsa`ah]

Oh get off the ignorant American kick already Stay, it's old, it's lame, and it's so you.

[DeV]

And they aren't the only ones in America who are recognized for their suffering, Stray. I guess it also depends on the type of cirriculum a school system teaches about WWII and the Nazi regime in particular as well as the media and a personal interest as a whole. When it all comes down it doesn't matter who suffered the most as horrific attrocities like that should actually bring all who were affected together instead of infighting as to who suffered more than who and so on.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
I would imagine, Arkans, it has everything to do with location. Being that you guys are prediominantly American, you get the American perspective. How many Americans died in Aushwitz? Not many. But many Jews did escape to the US, and of course your country has a massive Jewish community. So perhaps your media presents such news and history to appeal to such an audience that can sympathize more easily.

In the European countries, believe me, the Jews are not the ONLY ones considered when it comes to Auschwitz and WW2 atrocities.

While certain factions in this country do emphasize the Jewish losses during that time, Stay, any well-read American is well aware that the loss of life was felt by many, many people who were not Jewish. While some may like to dwell upon a single element, most educated Americans do not.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Read Stalingradt Arkans ;)
That atleast focuses on the Russian sacrifices made during the War. Sacrifices that won the war for the Allies, something that most Americans are either too proud or too ignorant to admit.

The Russian peoples' suffering was horrendous. I have been there, and have seen the evidence of what they went through. Please, Stay, do not group Americans into one, hermetically sealed group of fools. We are not. Believe me, we are not.

[Miss X]

My heart breaks for every single human being that suffered during WW2 regardless of who they are, who cares what label we give them, each life is as important as the next.

[CrystalTears]

I agree, Miss X. I completely agree. My argument was about the NUMBERS, not the suffering itself. I apologize for starting this fiasco as it was never my intent to single out a group when the whole ordeal was horrific. My bad.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Oh get off the ignorant American kick already Stay, it's old, it's lame, and it's so you.

Sorry, I watched a Michael Moore film last night. Just makes me laugh the shit you have to endure over there. And how much and how many of you buy into it...

Unfortuntely, you do need a personal interest or a better than average education to understand the suffering on the Russian Front. Take a look at the History Channel. When they talk about WWII it is always focused on Western Europe, North Africa, or the Pacific Theater. Public schools do focus more heavily on the Pacific Theater and the invasion of Normandy while merely glossing over the Russian Front.

Not all Americans are ignorant of the facts though. Unfortunately though, it is my deep interest in WWII that has brought me along in understand what happened in Russia, not any eductional institution here.

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

Just like you buying anything that fatass Moore has to say in his bullshitumentary? Yeah okay.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Arkans
Unfortuntely, you do need a personal interest or a better than average education to understand the suffering on the Russian Front. Take a look at the History Channel. When they talk about WWII it is always focused on Western Europe, North Africa, or the Pacific Theater. Public schools do focus more heavily on the Pacific Theater and the invasion of Normandy while merely glossing over the Russian Front.

Not all Americans are ignorant of the facts though. Unfortunately though, it is my deep interest in WWII that has brought me along in understand what happened in Russia, not any eductional institution here.

- Arkans

My point exactly.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Just like you buying anything that fatass Moore has to say in his bullshitumentary? Yeah okay.

LOL, and you say you're not ignorant.

[HarmNone]

Oddly enough, I saw something on the Russian involvement in WWII, which included the horrors inflicted on the Russian people, including the siege of Leningrad, on the History channel just recently. The truth is out there, and it is being disseminated.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by StrayRogue

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Just like you buying anything that fatass Moore has to say in his bullshitumentary? Yeah okay.

LOL, and you say you're not ignorant.

Don't be stupid. Moore twists around events and information to make it work in his favor, to benefit his point of view. His films are pure fiction. If you believe otherwise, you're the ignorant one.

[Ben]

work liberates.

[StrayRogue]

Why don't you apply the above to your media and government?

[HarmNone]

I think most thinking people do, Stay, just as you must do with the British media and government.

I thought it was "Work makes Freedom"

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Oh get off the ignorant American kick already Stay, it's old, it's lame, and it's so you.

As is the BS from (some) Americans about how they, and only they defeated the Nazis

In terms of the way that the impact on the Jews is presented, lets not forget that the "Final Solution" was a program aimed at killing every Jew in Europe.

Of course there were other people killed during the war, but as in Iraq, rightly or wrongly, people killed in a war tend to become collateral damage, rather than murders.

The killing of the Jews (who were the predominant casualties of the extermination camps) can only be presented as murder.

Anyone with half a braincell can see that a single life lost in a war is a tragedy, but a program solely targeting a race of people and endorsing genocide of said people, is something else and needs remembering in its own right.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Arkans
I thought it was "Work makes Freedom"

- Arkans

It is pretty much. Work makes you free.

The mentally retarded, physically disabled, gays, gypsies, and crazies were to be completely exterminated too. They are never mentioned either.

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

Yeah they were.
Click on the Auschwitz link I posted.

The final solution was devised to exterminate Jews. Others were added along the way for convenience. Doesnt make those victims any less important, but thats how it is.

I could have sworn that Jews were not the first targets. The mentally retarded were one of the first, beat only by Communists and other political prisoners.

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

Read Mein Kampf

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Arkans
The mentally retarded, physically disabled, gays, gypsies, and crazies were to be completely exterminated too. They are never mentioned either.

- Arkans

Yes, Arkans, they are mentioned. To say they are never mentioned is hyperbole, and hyperbole tends to invalidate arguments.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Oh get off the ignorant American kick already Stay, it's old, it's lame, and it's so you.

As is the BS from (some) Americans about how they, and only they defeated the Nazis



<3 Nien.

PS, seeing Team America tonight. Should be a giggle.

[Back]

Its good to be aware that many people from many different walks were involved in this. It was, after all, World War II.

And while my thoughts do turn to the jews when this is mentioned, I am aware that there were many others in the camps, and those who fought to free them. The only people I have known who were involved in this war in any way are my jewish friends.

If any war was just, it was this one. The lessons learned from it have to be remembered so it dosen’t happen again. Especially in today’s political climate.

[HarmNone]

Ya know, I'm going to say something here that I may regret; however, I'd love (just every now and then) to see some recognition given to those Americans who don't prance around like the second coming instead of being constantly bombarded by how obnoxious, repulsive, and downright ignorant Americans are.

I've been to Britain, and to many other countries. I've met the people, stayed in their homes (or huts, in some cases), eaten their food, and enjoyed their company. I find it repellent to imagine myself putting these people down just because they aren't from the same place I'm from, or because they don't have the same culture that I have.

People are people. There are great people everywhere. There are idjits everywhere. Can we please, please, please stop pointing fingers at everyone who isn't like, and where, we happen to be?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by StrayRogue

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Oh get off the ignorant American kick already Stay, it's old, it's lame, and it's so you.

Sorry, I watched a Michael Moore film last night. Just makes me laugh the shit you have to endure over there. And how much and how many of you buy into it...

I couldn't agree more. I just hope you didn't buy the DVD and got it for free. My opinion is that the more money people like Michael Moore get.. the more it encourages them to make more of these "documentaries" that are nothing but personal opinion and biased viewpoints.

It's amazing how many people buy into it.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Oh get off the ignorant American kick already Stay, it's old, it's lame, and it's so you.

As is the BS from (some) Americans about how they, and only they defeated the Nazis

As is the BS from (some) Brits about how they, and only they, defeated the Nazis.

What's your point again?

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Oh get off the ignorant American kick already Stay, it's old, it's lame, and it's so you.

As is the BS from (some) Americans about how they, and only they defeated the Nazis

As is the BS from (some) Brits about how they, and only they, defeated the Nazis.

What's your point again?

I don't think, on this board atleast, anyone has every claimed that the UK single-handely won the second world war.

[HarmNone]

Has anyone (who can be considered worth listening to) on this board ever claimed that the US single-handedly defeated the Nazis?

[StrayRogue]

I'm sure a few times actually. But theres plenty of "we saved your ass" or "if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German" sentiment everywhere.

[HarmNone]

I don't recall seeing that kind of post from anyone to whose opinion I would give one ounce of credence, Stay. I think that's the point I was trying to make.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
I'm sure a few times actually. But theres plenty of "we saved your ass" or "if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German" sentiment everywhere.

Then here is a thought for you. Focus on their ignorance and quit making blanket statements and assumption or I'll start digging into the "brit" stereo type bag.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Originally posted by StrayRogue
I'm sure a few times actually. But theres plenty of "we saved your ass" or "if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German" sentiment everywhere.

Then here is a thought for you. Focus on their ignorance and quit making blanket statements and assumption or I'll start digging into the "brit" stereo type bag.

Yea! You bad toothed, pasty white fuck!

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
I'm sure a few times actually. But theres plenty of "we saved your ass" or "if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German" sentiment everywhere.

But.. to a certain extent, isn't this kinda true though? While I certainly don't believe that the US was completely responsible for the defeat of the Nazis.. they certainly did change the tide of the war with their entry. How long do you believe Britain would be able to withstand their constant bombardments and air attacks?

What the British people did during the war was nothing short of heroic.. but it certainly doesn't negate the fact that without America's help, there was a very real possibility of defeat.

[HarmNone]

Saying that the US lent a hand in WWII is drastically different than saying the US defeated the Nazis single-handedly. There is really no correlation.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Originally posted by StrayRogue
I'm sure a few times actually. But theres plenty of "we saved your ass" or "if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German" sentiment everywhere.

Then here is a thought for you. Focus on their ignorance and quit making blanket statements and assumption or I'll start digging into the "brit" stereo type bag.

Yea! You bad toothed, pasty white fuck!

lol....PB you live in the south and self admittedly wear socks with sandals....not to mention the minivan.....people in glass houses ;)

[xtc]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by StrayRogue
I'm sure a few times actually. But theres plenty of "we saved your ass" or "if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German" sentiment everywhere.

But.. to a certain extent, isn't this kinda true though? While I certainly don't believe that the US was completely responsible for the defeat of the Nazis.. they certainly did change the tide of the war with their entry. How long do you believe Britain would be able to withstand their constant bombardments and air attacks?

What the British people did during the war was nothing short of heroic.. but it certainly doesn't negate the fact that without America's help, there was a very real possibility of defeat.

PB very true too bad it took so damn long for us to get involved.

[Miss X]

It makes me quite sad to see us arguing about who defeated who. My grandfather didn't join the RAF and risk his life flying planes (and lose his hearing as a restult of flying) so that all these years later we could argue about who did more to help. What matters is that eventually the allies did win and we are all here today living in as much freedom as our societies allow. We should just be thankful that so many men and women fought for that and show some respect for the millions of people that lost their lives so that we might live ours.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Miss X
It makes me quite sad to see us arguing about who defeated who. My grandfather didn't join the RAF and risk his life flying planes (and lose his hearing as a restult of flying) so that all these years later we could argue about who did more to help. What matters is that eventually the allies did win and we are all here today living in as much freedom as our societies allow. We should just be thankful that so many men and women fought for that and show some respect for the millions of people that lost their lives so that we might live ours.

True but there has always been a friendly rivalry between the Brits and Yanks. In England in WW2 Brits use to say the Americans were over sexed, over paid and over here...lol

I'm Jewish, whoopty fuck. Like 99.99999% of my white family were killed by the Nazis.

I just want to know why "60" is so important, it's not like, a nice round number, like 50, or 100, you know?

Eh, the US did help win WW2, but saying they are the most important players in the conflict is a bit of a stretch. Let's face it, the war was fought and lost for the Germans on the Eastern Front.

The American and British forces only faced about 30% of German froces, the rest were having a blast fighting in the Eastern Front. Also, the Operation Overlord might have been a smashing success, but saying that it was the turning point in the war is also false. People need to realize that the Red Army was already halfway through Poland before a single Allied boot touched French soil.

So, a fairer remark could be, "If it wasn't for us, you'd all be speaking Russian right now!"

- Arkans

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
I'm sure a few times actually. But theres plenty of "we saved your ass" or "if it weren't for us, you'd be speaking German" sentiment everywhere. Don't worry about that nasty "proof" business.

Nobody listened to me when I talked about the Russians in middle school. Doesn't matter. They're all still dead; Jews, Russians, gypsies, Slavs, French, British. :(

[Bobmuhthol]

And gays.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by xtc
PB very true too bad it took so damn long for us to get involved.

Thankfully, many have learned from history.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I've been to Auschwitz, and like a few of you have already stated, it's spooky. I don't know if it's just knowing how bad thing happened there, or the press or the gloomy way it's set up (when I went you walked through and they had huge black and white posterboards with pictures on metal wires, and text to accompany it). It was scary, somber, and when I was there, you were almost afraid to talk in more than a whisper. Everyone was talking like in church.

If you ever get the chance, I say go.