Racism and personal experiences

[Edaarin]

I was reading the HOT 97 thread and I had a response all typed out, but I realized that so much of it digressed that it would probably be best to start a new thread. Bear with me, this is going to be a rather long post.

The general attitude today is that people in this country more or less treat everyone equally and ethically, regardless of race, gender, or sexuality. We have legislation (hypothetically) ensuring equal opportunity. However, as of now, people are inherently raised with different perceptions of and attitudes toward those different from them.

I was at Kroger's a few days ago with Brandon, one of my residents. He's articulate, polite, dresses better than I do, and also happens to be black. He made an offhand remark that it's funny to see how many people act like they don't see him, and it was true. People pushing their carts more often than not never made eye contact with him. They looked past me, but at least I got a look.

I've been on the receiving end more times than I count myself, retarded comments/generalizations from peons on the internet aside. Obviously there's the situation with things like college admissions and employment, where I have to be three times as impressive as a black colleague or twice as impressive as a white one. If you don't think that's the case, you're either completely naive or have had the fortune of living in a very enlightened community. It's not always intentional; it might be something as small as someone commenting on my unusual height or the fact that I'm good with numbers. It always falls back on my ethnicity.

It works both ways; no matter how hard I try I will always have preconceived notions of people of other races. Back near the end of August, when I was meeting all of my residents the first thing that popped out of my mouth when I shook Brandon's hand was, "So do you play basketball?" He was used to it; he told me later that that's one of the first questions everyone asks when they meet him the first time (parents included). It's one of those things that he has to struggle with, proving to people that he belongs at this university because he's smart, not because he has a 36" vertical.

One of the things that used to really puzzle me is how all black people acknowledge each other even though they might not know each other. No other race does this that I know of; I'm not talking about just making small talk while waiting for a bus or in line at a store. Without fail, whenever I was going somewhere with my ex roommate or with Brandon and we pass another black person while walking, they would give each other a nod or a "what's up man." Both have told me that black people do it because they feel one another. Brandon went even further and said that it's because in general a stranger of another race would never acknowledge him without him doing it first. I guess that's true too, as far as I know.

Similarly, in my current setting, I make some assumptions about groups of white people subconsciously. I take it for granted that the vast majority of my Caucasian friends come from privileged backgrounds. It honestly surprises me when I meet a white person here who can come close to understanding what it's like to grow up without a silver spoon in their mouth.

The only thing that has kept me from turning completely bitter and cynical about race is joking about it. I've accepted that I'm going to be held to a higher standard than a lot of people. I've also learned to take jokes with a grain of salt; hell I make more racist jokes than anyone I know now.

But for those of you that don't think racism is still rampant, take a moment and reflect. The next time you meet someone whose skin isn't the same color as yours, remember what runs through your mind that instant.

Wow, you're a normal, ethical person, congratulations.

As for me I'm camped out in this infectious hippy-hole we call college and I'm actually thankful for a roomate who can see past all these early-20 Ad Council political-correctness mindsets and from time-to-time call me a "fucking jew" or me him "a drunken mick."

It livens up my day to know that by accepting racial stigma in what actually IS a comedic and positive sense, it makes me well wise beyond my years.

[Parkbandit]

Edaarin's just mad because he's a horrible driver and is good at math.

[Skeeter]

You want oppression?
You want to see people being treated horribly?

Do some work with the mentally retarded. It's socially acceptable to make fun of them to their face, or ignore them, or just be downright mean. Nobody has a problem with making fun of them on prime time sit-coms and it's a popular catch phrase in the internet community. How many people call someone retarded on a daily basis? It's heartbreaking to see a class of people hidden away and treated so horribly by society.

No matter how "enlightened" society becomes, people will always find someone to hate.

[Edaarin]

I tutor Special Education 4th graders Mondays and Thursdays from 3:30-5:00.

I agree with you completely.

[Tsa`ah]

I find most of it is due to baggage handed down rather than from personal experience.

Coming from a small town, I had a great deal of baggage to dispose of in college.

Gay folk freaked me out, black people intimidated me, I had an unrealistic loathing of Asians, a completely retarded hate of Arabs, and too many preconceived notions about everyone.

Despite what most people would think, it had nothing to do with my parents. Mom and Dad taught me to believe less than half of what I hear and only what I could see with my own two eyes. I was constantly lectured whenever they over heard me mention "fag" or some racial slur and it wasn't until college that the lectures actually took hold.

I think most of it had to do with the community. We only experienced different cultures through 4 channels on television. Hispanics were nothing more than migrant workers. Black people were only seen in the worst parts of any larger city. Asians were all lumped together as bad simply because most of the 30+ men in town were veterans of Korea or Viet Nam.

It wasn't meeting and talking to people of differing ethnicities that opened my eyes, it was the assumption of white people I would meet. "So you're dad is a lawyer/doctor/accountant?" "Do you think your mother could hook me up with a nice Jewish girl that puts out?" It was how I was perceived because I didn't fit the "Jewish" perception. I was the son of poor farmers that had full time jobs outside of farming to make ends meet.

[Warriorbird]

Working with the developmentally disabled was very eye opening. Probably the most moving volunteer work I ever did.

I got told in an office at a recent interview that the person was, "Glad I was white." I left.

[Nakiro]

I tend to feel most (mainly) uncomfortable around people of an non-caucasion ethnicity when I sense they dislike my presence.

Otherwise I just treat people as I would like to be treated.

Originally posted by Nakiro
I tend to feel most (mainly) uncomfortable around people of an non-caucasion ethnicity when I sense they dislike my presence.

Otherwise I just treat people as I would like to be treated.

Yeah...

So this non-caucasian looked at me the other day, I felt rightfully uncomfortable because I could *sense* they didn't like me. :lol2:

[Tsa`ah]

Shame Stan ... shame.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Edaarin's just mad because he's a horrible driver and is good at math.

You forgot his affinity to cameras around his neck.

[Hulkein]

I guess I was lucky going to a school with a lot of diversity.

Of my four best friends in 1st grade two were asians, one was white, and one was black.

And I agree, joking around about it is all you can do sometimes.

[Warriorbird]

I went to a fairly diverse school system as far as black/white goes. We didn't have many other groups until I was in high school and more hispanic folks started moving in.

[Nakiro]

If I walk up to two talking black guys while waiting in line to get a burritto at Chipotle and they stop talking for the rest of the time and act completely silent I can bet its because I'm standing next to them.

This doesn't happen all the time, but I'm pretty sure when it does its because they are uncomfortable with me standing right next to them.

[Warriorbird]

Either that or your fly was open.

[Latrinsorm]

Maybe they didn't dig your Halloween ghost costume, Nakiro.

[Talben]

nakiro, are you 8 feet tall? have an extra eye on your forehead?

The fact is, blacks, whites, asians, and hispanics have a different culture here in the US. We don't all behave the same way, we don't live (generally) in the same areas, and we are as heck usually have different dialects. It's just people sticking to their own, as far as I'm concerned. Most geeks arn't going to be hanging out with a group of frat boys, for instance.

- Arkans

[Tsa`ah]

Sticking up for your "own"?

Last I checked the only real difference was in the skin color. Who cares about who's hanging out with who. It's about respect and over looking the differences.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Arkans
The fact is, blacks, whites, asians, and hispanics have a different culture here in the US.The fact that some blacks have a different culture from some whites is not at all necessarily indicative of the whole. Faulty generalization. I fit in with a number of latinos much better than I do with some of my own relatives (who happen to be white).

[Jolena]

After reading through all of these posts, I'm sitting here not quite sure what to say because everyone forgot to mention the mixed races, such as myself. I'm half hispanic and half white and my children are indian/black/hispanic and white. There's a lot of times that people look at me and then my children and there is a certain distaste in their eyes or their demeanor towards us and then again, when they see me alone as I'm pretty pale for a hispanic, they don't seem to give me any issues at all. At those times, I sit back and wonder what they would feel had they known I was half hispanic or seen me with my kids.

[Skeeter]

Originally posted by Nakiro
If I walk up to two talking black guys while waiting in line to get a burritto at Chipotle and they stop talking for the rest of the time and act completely silent I can bet its because I'm standing next to them.

This doesn't happen all the time, but I'm pretty sure when it does its because they are uncomfortable with me standing right next to them.


They were clearly making fun of you. Were you dancing? :lol:

[Nakiro]

I think black/white children are very beautiful personally.

[Jolena]

Oh I agree they are beautiful, and I envy my children's skin complexion/color and their eyes and hair. They are gorgeous. However in all honesty, people who are of mixed heritage get it from both sides of the spectrum. If a mixed black person is being discriminated against, they get it from the whites and the blacks hehe.

[Jazuela]

I grew up with a mixed bag. The majority of my neighborhood was Jewish, with a bunch of Protestants and an Italian-Catholic family tossed in for fun. Halfway through my childhood, a black family moved in, down at the bottom half of the development. It was a very white-collar middle-class neighborhood, with no Asians or Hispanics that I can remember at all.

Then I went to High School where we were mixed up with an almost even balance of black/white, with again - very few Asians or Hispanics. I remember there was a Cuban guy in my spanish class. He was a hoot - used to correct the teacher on her accent.

In College I had all that, plus Asians, Hispanics, and the *majority* of the college population was gay/lesbian, including faculty.

My grandparents were old-fashioned Jewish bigots. One quote will never leave my memory: "I have no problem with coloreds. I even had one as a maid once."

My mom was one of those types who'd go out of her way to prove she had no prejudices, which only proved that she had more than most.

I dated a black guy for years, and a Puerto-Rican, and a hodge-podge of various other ethnicities.

And yet...when I get into an elevator alone, and it stops on a floor and a black guy wearing baggies and a hairnet gets on with me, I get nervous. I'll still make an attempt to behave civilly - nod my recognition of his existence, which is only the polite thing to do...but my heart will be thumping and inside, I'll be wondering if he's gonna slit my throat before I can walk out of the elevator.

I can't blame it on conditioning, because I wasn't conditioned to be that way. I guess the only excuse for it is, that black guy with a hairnet is different from me. He's not wearing clothes indicitive of a middle-class upbringing, he's obviously not white (though he could be Jewish), and because hairnets are just damned tacky as hell, no matter what color you are :)

Part of it is the media - since we all know that baggies and hairnets are a "sure sign" of gang involvement. (at least that's what the media tries to tell us) Or - involvement with peer pressure to LOOK like you're into the gang scene. But that doesn't help your reputation when you're trying to get trust and kindness from other people.

I treat people mostly how I want to be treated. Or at least, I try to. I'm sure I miss the mark on occasion. At least I have the guts to admit it though. Some people don't (like my mom, for instance).

[Bobmuhthol]

<<I can't blame it on conditioning, because I wasn't conditioned to be that way. I guess the only excuse for it is, that black guy with a hairnet is different from me. He's not wearing clothes indicitive of a middle-class upbringing, he's obviously not white>>

[TheRoseLady]

I think that people fall back on cliches at times to try and find some common ground with someone. A person who loathes you or has no interest *at all* would not ask if you played basketball, or tease you about being smart in math. It's what they know and it's usually just a way to make a connection. There are a myriad of flaws, faults and circumstances that people have that put them in any number of scenarios in which they are on the negative end of an interaction. It goes well beyond race and encompasses gender and appearance as well.

I know that I work with a lot of blacks and we joke often about differences and similiarities. I was very surprised to learn that many blacks are conditioned to assume that a caucasian is prejudiced toward them, and only after they get to know that person do they learn that the person is not that way.

Personally I have to check myself when it comes to those with whom I think are hispanic. I don't think there was one single solitary hispanic person in my entire town when I grew up, and if there were I sure didn't know them. My lack of exposure to their culture leaves me automatically assuming that they all live piled 20 people to a house, all have relatives that they are trying to get over into the US and none are taller than 5'5". It's preposterous to actually believe those things, but it honestly is a gut level reaction. I don't show any disrespect, but I do completely get what Edaarin is saying. (Please, if you are hispanic - do not take offense - none is meant.)

[Jolena]

I'm not offended and I'm hispanic. However, from my experience with hispanics, they tend to live in houses with that many people in them because they have low-paying jobs and can share utilities and expenses this way. MANY MANY of the hispanic men are sending home money to their wives and children in Mexico, in fact they tend to send more then 50% of their pay which leaves them in very meager conditions. Hence, they share living quarters to try and counteract that effect. :shrug:

[Sean]

Originally posted by Arkans
The fact is, blacks, whites, asians, and hispanics have a different culture here in the US. We don't all behave the same way, we don't live (generally) in the same areas, and we are as heck usually have different dialects. It's just people sticking to their own, as far as I'm concerned. Most geeks arn't going to be hanging out with a group of frat boys, for instance.

- Arkans

Culture is one thing, race is another. Me personally I'm half Dutch and half Jamaican. Where does that leave me in how I'm supposed to behave? The belief that a certain person should act a certain way because of their race just perpetuates stereotypes. Culture is a bit iffier.

You say we all have different cultures here in the US? What is US black culture? What is US white culture? US culture? Since we don't all behave the same way how do we behave differently?

The fact that when I meet people they tend to be surprised by my ability to articulate my points, the manner in which I conduct business, the way I act, etc. and that I don't conform to some 'style' says a lot about the way society views me. I'm not talking about people eating kosher meals, or wearing traditional garb, or fitting into a religious/cultural choice that they made to follow, I'm talking about people assuming I listen to a certain style of music, or dress and act a certain way, or can't speak my mind without lowering myself to slang terminology. These types of stereotypes are just stupid in my opinion. Things aren't so black and white. You might look at me and assume I should act 'black' but what is acting 'black'? Should I act Jamaican? Should I act Guyanese? Should I act Haitian? South African? There is no such thing as acting black, at least in my mind, all that exists is some preconceived notion that all black people should act like you see on TV or in the movies which applies to some notion of being “inner city”, and even then it's still a dumb assumption because again what is acting inner city. You can apply this to any concept race. What is acting White? Asian? Hispanic? etc.

A lot of these questions are things I've faced in everyday life. Things I had to deal with growing up. As someone who was biracial during my teenage years it was a big internal debate, an identity crisis of sorts that I went through. Being half 'black' (Jamaican) and half 'white' (Dutch-Polish) where do I fall? Since to the common eye people 1st assume I'm just black how am I supposed to act? Should I change my musical tastes from classic rock to rap to conform to some preconceived notion of what I should do? Should I wear my pants real low? Should I degrade my speech patterns to fit some slang? In the end after evaluating myself and the society around me I came to the conclusion that these things are just notions that other people might have, some mold that I don't fit to. And the only mold I fit is that of human. I am who I am not based on my race. I am who I am based on my life experiences and decisions I've made.

I'm not a supporter of a homogeneous society. I am a supporter of judging people based on who they are and the merits of what they've done not on some mold they should fit based on their race.

Basically judging people based on stereotypes instead of who that person is, in my opinion, is a fairly foolish thing to do. Geeks and Frat Boys? You have some idea of what you think a Frat Boy is but I can attest especially at a technical school that there are a lot of Frat Boys who fit the ‘Geek’ mold. So yes Geek and Frat Boy can mesh.

[Warriorbird]

That was really evocative. It never really is simple, deep down.

[Ben]

oh geez.

[AnticorRifling]

You want oppression? Be a straight white male in the work force.

Edit to add: I'm not kidding, if I need to expound I will but I'll start with the above.

[Edited on 1-28-2005 by AnticorRifling]

[Ben]

its so horrible people ask if he plays basketball, look at people who are born crippled. is this a brag cuz you're brown topic? poverty is a bigger oppressor than race. if you dress in a suit and tie no ones going to be afraid of you on the elevator, if you wear a bandana and no shirt and baggy jeans then people will get nervous. and rightly so.

[Ben]

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
You want oppression? Be a straight white male in the work force.

Edit to add: I'm not kidding, if I need to expound I will but I'll start with the above.

[Edited on 1-28-2005 by AnticorRifling]





true.

Excellent response, Tijay. I've known a few bi-racial people growing up and they were pretty much in the same situation. They didn't know whether to act "black" or to act "white" and they felt unwelcome in both groups. Now, that being said, I'll jump to the main point of this post.

Black, White, Asian, and Hispanic cultures do differe here in America. Put aside the traditional behaviors of the native countries that they may come from and just look at the "Americans" (with no real relatives coming from the Old Country.) In general, you will see that blacks talk differently, have different mannerisms, dress differently, and have different preferences in entertainment. The same goes for Hispanics and Whites.

Sure, the two bleed over from time to time, but in general, they all have what they call their "own." This goes on further. You'll notice that a neighborhood is generally "white", "black", "hispanic", or "asian." Exceptions do exist, but are rarer than one would think.

- Arkans

[HarmNone]

I live in the south, yet I don't notice that much prejudice amongst my peer group. The family that lives next door to me is black. They had a magnificent Christmas party last year, and I've rarely seen such a mixed bag of nationalities in my life. There were Hispanics, Europeans, blacks, mutts like me, Asians, and all manner of folk. The guest list ranged from large company CEOs to janitors. Bill, my neighbor, is just that kind of guy. He makes friends wherever he goes and gives no consideration to color, creed, nationality, or employment status.

We had a wonderful time, and I saw no sign of rejection from anyone, toward anyone. It can be done.

[Edaarin]

Originally posted by Ben
is this a brag cuz you're brown topic?

No, read the title. It was intended to share personal experiences.

Wayne, we've talked about workplace discrimination before, and on the whole I agree with you. However, look at corporate America toda. The vast majority of CEOs, CFOs, and BOD Chairmen are 50+ white men. Look at annual reports for most any F500 company; they'll go out of their way to highlight minorities in management positions, but when it goes to introducing senior directors, it might as well be a scene out of the 50s.

Unfortunately, this is most definatly not the norm.

- Arkans

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Edaarin

Originally posted by Ben
is this a brag cuz you're brown topic?

No, read the title. It was intended to share personal experiences.

Wayne, we've talked about workplace discrimination before, and on the whole I agree with you. However, look at corporate America toda. The vast majority of CEOs, CFOs, and BOD Chairmen are 50+ white men. Look at annual reports for most any F500 company; they'll go out of their way to highlight minorities in management positions, but when it goes to introducing senior directors, it might as well be a scene out of the 50s.

I agree with that but I've got some 30 years before I'm in a position where I'm at the age to be in the inner circle of executive management. I was talking more along the lines of workers and middle management which is my next probably 5-10yr future.