Iraq

[Back]

Starting this new topic so the other one gets its proper respect.

Iraq is a major fuck up. Lets pretend we did go there because we were really concerned with how little Johnny Iraqi was going to grow up. What was that first attack called? Awe and Splendor? Do you realize how sick and twisted that is? Awe and Splendor? Try Charred human flesh and Devestation. Whoops! Bombs hit residential neighborhoods. There goes Johnny!

How are you helping people when you kill them, their cities and their economy?

Imminent threat. WMDs. 9-11. None of these things are, were, or ever have been true. Our administration has admitted as much so you can’t tell me I’m wrong on this one.

After listening to all that bullshit from so many people for so long I’m really starting to wonder if what they tell us about Saddam is even true since all the other stuff is bullshit.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Yeah, it's all a conspiracy. No doubt everything in the news is a total lie, unless it's about how Bush is a bad President or how the Democrats ROXOR. I'm with you man, it's 100% black and white and I'm certain that from reading the Washington post and watching some news programs, I know everything there is to know about this war. Clearly much more than say, anyone in the military or even the President.

[CrystalTears]

I'm so fucking sick of people calling the WMD incident a lie. People would rather call Bush evil than to consider that what was stated was a mistake. A mistake made by SEVERAL FUCKING PEOPLE AND COUNTRIES.

So what exactly wasn't true about 9/11?

[Edited on 1/27/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I'm so fucking sick of people calling the WMD incident a lie. People would rather call Bush evil than to consider that what was stated was a mistake. A mistake made by SEVERAL FUCKING PEOPLE AND COUNTRIES.

All of whom were led by the information presented to them by Bush

[CrystalTears]

Bush led us to war. Want to get mad at the way it was handled, how soon they went in, how it was structured? Fine. But to say that all of it was a lie is just naive since his information was given to him by intelligence agencies. The same information that was given to other people and countries. Where exactly is the lie? You really think he deceived people into believing that Iraq had WMD? How exactly? What information did he fabricate to the world to believe it?

[Parkbandit]

What pisses me off is that the US Government said there was billions in US currency that Saddam had in banks.. and when we got there, it was gone.

Well fuck.. that clearly means they never had the billions.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

What really pisses me off is those fake beheadings of US and allied captives. That pisses me off the most.

[Parkbandit]

What pisses me off is that the US keeps saying Saddam was a bad guy when we really haven't seen any REAL proof.

[Back]

What pisses me off is the needless death and devestation of innocent everyday people.

[CrystalTears]

You're right. The death of innocent people IS a tragedy. However, I personally feel that some death now is worth it for the better of millions of people of the future.

If it weren't for the innocent people who have died for us through history, we wouldn't have the freedoms we have now. You have to sacrifice sometimes to gain the better good.

[Edited on 1/27/2005 by CrystalTears]

[Tsa`ah]

This isn't about Sadam being a bad guy. This is about crappy intel that they knew was crappy. Other nations knew the intel provided was bull shit ... but you know ... Iraqi exiles are infallible and have nothing to gain.

So yes, the public and the military were lied to.

[Warriorbird]

If that was all that was involved here, CT, it would be a beautiful noble thing. Unfortunately, it isn't.

Sure, I think it's wonderful that the Baath Party (which we helped build up) is no longer in power. It will save lives. I accept that there's costs associated. It's just not that simple any way you look at it. There's elements there that go way beyond "making the world safe for democracy."

There's oil connections and construction connections and rebuilding connections to the President and Vice President, there's profiteering on many levels, there's an attempt to jumpstart the economy, there's theoretically lower fuel prices that aren't, there's rampant spending that threatens any notion of fiscal conservativeness, there's a fight against terror on one level... but also a snowjob on the American public because we haven't damn well caught Bin Laden, and notice I do mention some of these things as good, in addition to getting Saddam out've power...

...but it just isn't as simple as "saving lives at a sacrifice to our own." and to suggest it is belittles the situation, tries to sweep it under a rug. I generally disagree with TOJ on a lot of political issues, but in the other related topic at least he put it out there that there's a lot more involved in this than just saving lives.

[Parkbandit]

BUSH INVADED IRAQ SO THAT HIS FRIENDS COULD PROFIT FROM OIL AND CONSTRUCTION.

Why don't you just post that Warriorbird.. instead of pussyassfooting around? Come right out and say that is the reason.. that way I can tell you how full of shit you are.

[Warriorbird]

Because I don't think that's the only reason. Woah!

[Betheny]

It's kind of like cancer. You're okay with it, until it happens to someone you care about.

Sorry. If you think that this Iraq is worth it, I would urge you to speak with the family of someone who died over there, or a friend.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Because I don't think that's the only reason. Woah!

To even believe that it had shit to do with the decision makes you look stupid in my eyes.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Maimara
It's kind of like cancer. You're okay with it, until it happens to someone you care about.

Sorry. If you think that this Iraq is worth it, I would urge you to speak with the family of someone who died over there, or a friend.

You know what.. I like your analogy actually. Iraq was like cancer. You certainly can live with it for a while.. as it eats slowly at a small part of your insides. You can simply do nothing as it spreads from organ to organ.. or you can simply take it out and stop it from spreading.

We choose to take it out.

[Warriorbird]

"To even believe that it had shit to do with the decision makes you look stupid in my eyes."

To be completely fucking blind to anything but the hype makes me feel bad for you. So we're even.

Can we lay the smack down on North Korea yet?

Those fuckers make me more paranoid than any Bush administration propaganda.

[Warriorbird]

Of course not. It'd anger China. Neither party is willing to do that.

[Edited on 1-27-2005 by Warriorbird]

Oh yeah, and like China, Japan or South Korea are actually going to openly conform to a speck of justified imperialism.

I say the U.S. invades now, and cares about trade later. I mean, terrorism is #1! Even I've been brainwashed by that, so let's further put aside our economy, even further, with respect to the Asian Trade and commence another rightfully-called-for pre-emptive strike. C'mon!

Who's with me?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Of course not. It'd anger China. Neither party is willing to do that.

[Edited on 1-27-2005 by Warriorbird]

lol. You bitch because we invaded Iraq.. yet you bitch we aren't invading Korea or China?

Which is it?

[Warriorbird]

I actually think simply knocking off Saddam (preferably in the first war) and then concentrating on chasing Bin Laden to wherever the hell he lays his head would've been the superior course.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
I actually think simply knocking off Saddam (preferably in the first war) and then concentrating on chasing Bin Laden to wherever the hell he lays his head would've been the superior course.

I could not agree more!!!

I believe that we made a fundamental flaw in not going all the way into Iraq and forcing out the Government in the first Gulf War. We had every right to topple that government at that time. Instead we spent the next 12 years with that fucknut in power and playing games with him.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Backlash
What was that first attack called? Awe and Splendor?

It was "Shock and Awe".

And I guess it lived up to it's name.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Maimara
It's kind of like cancer. You're okay with it, until it happens to someone you care about.

Sorry. If you think that this Iraq is worth it, I would urge you to speak with the family of someone who died over there, or a friend.

You know what.. I like your analogy actually. Iraq was like cancer. You certainly can live with it for a while.. as it eats slowly at a small part of your insides. You can simply do nothing as it spreads from organ to organ.. or you can simply take it out and stop it from spreading.


I'm pretty sure when she says "it" she's referring to people dying. You can say that people dying isn't a huge deal until it's you or someone you know/care about is dying.

I doubt she is talking about Iraq as a country/power.

On the up side - Your application to the FoxNews team has been approved.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Wezas
On the up side - Your application to the FoxNews team has been approved.

[CrystalTears]

Yeah okay, I personally don't know anyone who has died there. And I'm fairly certain that even though I would be hurt and devastated that they died, I would know in my heart that they CHOSE to be in that war and died for their country. If that makes me a heartless bitch because I believe in fighting for the safety of your country which would mean the loss of lives, so be it.

[Warriorbird]

Still missing the point. Your classification of it as something simple boggles the mind.

[CrystalTears]

And I think some people are overcomplicating it.

[Warriorbird]

Of course. We live in a world of clear right and wrong. No one has any other agendas. Neither political party ever distorts the truth or has more than one reason for going through an action. Profiteering is unavoidable. No politician ever does anything to distract from anything else.

The Army cares deeply about the environment. Some of the first targets in the present war were Kellog, Brown, and Root built oil facilities because they care about the little seabirds.

[DeV]

Is it possible to overcomplicate war? I mean, its serious business and should be treated as such.

[Betheny]

Yeah, I was referring to people dying, and I'm sorry but I think it's really callous of anybody to justify someone's death with 'it had to be done'. If that was the case, Kevorkian should have his own hospital.

Most of the people in our military joined prior to 9/11. Most of them joined so they could go to college, or for one of many reasons. I guarantee you not one of them said, "I want to go die in Iraq."

Let's not be insensitive to some people on these boards who have lost loved ones in Iraq, huh?

[CrystalTears]

I'm not downplaying and rejoicing in anyone's death, so don't try to say that I'm overjoyed with it. What I'm saying is that war is hard but sometimes necessary. Regardless of when someone joined up to the service, they have to know that they should EXPECT that someday they could be called for war. If they don't like that possibility, then, oh shit, don't fucking enlist.

Obviously people who ARE in the war NOW don't have a problem with it. People who have lost people dear to them. Tell THEM how insensitive THEY are for being for the war still.

[Warriorbird]

I dunno. I think that group of soldiers who refused to go out and get slaughtered due to inadequate armor had a problem with it.

I imagine there's a fair percentage of soldiers who took an oath and intend to fulfill it, whether they agree with the war or not. That's at least what I've gotten from my enlisted relatives (several of whom did not vote for the President).

[Wezas]

I agree that if you enlist - you should be prepared to go to war. I just think the administration should pick it's battles better. If people are going to put their lives on the line - that's the least the administration can do.

So they thought there were WMD - that point aside, once we found none - we should have gotten the fuck out. "But we got Saddam" - so? Do you actually think there's going to be a legit democratic election there in a few days? With people scared to leave their houses - in fear of being shot?

If Bush is so hell-bent on forcing democracy down Iraq's throat - then he shouldn't have blown off the UN. We might have actually had some help in doing what he wants to do.

[Tsa`ah]

I don't believe the oath states anything about invading countries that pose no threat to the US.

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

[CrystalTears]

I felt that Iraq/Saddam was a threat to the U.S., but at this point I'll just agree to disagree and end it here. I should know better than to get involved in political debates.

[Tsa`ah]

In what way was Iraq a threat to the US?

They didn't have WMDs.

Extremist Muslims would sooner behead Sadam than work with him.

Simply put, Iraq's reach toward US soil was nothing near what most terrorist groups were/are capable of.

[DeV]

And was he a threat before or after the Bush administration claimed he was one? He was definitely a threat to his own people... but to us, how so?

We had been given a dose of shock and awe by Bin Laden and his cronies and before you know it Saddam is linked and thereafter becomes a direct threat to us even those we hadn't captured public enemy number one.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I should know better than to get involved in political debates.

:whistle:

:D

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Wezas

So they thought there were WMD - that point aside, once we found none - we should have gotten the fuck out.

What would that have done to the country had we just left at that point in time?

Sounds easy as hell Wezas.. until you think of the consequences.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
What would that have done to the country had we just left at that point in time?

Sounds easy as hell Wezas.. until you think of the consequences.

Well, if we had the help of the UN - we could have pulled out most of our troops and tried to stabalize the country with the help of our allies. Instead we have to do it all by ourselves.

[Edaarin]

Right action. Wrong reason. Wrong leader.

The UN is so good and powerful that it gets FUCKING PWNED in some horrible 3rd world African country. Ew.

- Arkans

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
In what way was Iraq a threat to the US?

They didn't have WMDs.

Extremist Muslims would sooner behead Sadam than work with him.

Simply put, Iraq's reach toward US soil was nothing near what most terrorist groups were/are capable of.

It was my understanding that Iraq/Sadam funded 9/11..and has been funding actions twords the US for a long time.

:shrug:

Alright, let's get down to brass tacks.

We're an Imperialism.

Now we just need to decide what kind of imperialism do we want to be.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Adredrin
It was my understanding that Iraq/Sadam funded 9/11..and has been funding actions twords the US for a long time.

:shrug:

Nope. No ties have been found - funding or otherwise. Closest thing to my knowledge is:


Yet, evidence of Saddam's involvement in the 9/11 attacks has always been sketchy at best. The most compelling case has always rested on a meeting between 9/11 planner Mohammed Atta and Iraqi case officer al-Ani. At least one expert went so far as to argue that Atta received $100,000 that "probably funded at least part of the September 11 operation." The commission, as detailed in a separate report, "Outline of the 9/11 Plot," now believes that meeting never took place.

[Tsa`ah]

Try as the administration has, they lack evidence.

For years Sadam offered cash to the families of suicide bombers for successful attempts on US targets but action against Sadam was never directly taken.

To Osama and his group, and many others, Sadam was an infidel. After Sadam had a ranking member of Al qaeda executed, it's probably safe to say that Sadam was on a list somewhere.

The attempts to link Iraq to 9-11 were more of a bad after thought when the WMD smoke screen proved ineffective.

[Back]

As many have pointed out, the real mastermind of 9/11 still runs free. It blows my mind how patently obvious of a fuck up this administration is.

[Brattt8525]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
I don't believe the oath states anything about invading countries that pose no threat to the US.

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

I do believe it states I will obey etc. Myself and my childrens father both were in the Navy, we both knew full well that at some point in our careers we could be deployed. He was I wasn't, he went to Iraq for 12 months, he still won't/can't talk about alot of what happened. He will say he was disillusioned by those that were above him, glory hounds/bad conduct from other units and forces. He still to this day almost a year later states he would go and do it again if called upon.

Those who say we didn't need to go/waste of our men are soon forgetting the terrorist attacks on our country. Also there seems to be alot of speculative things being said/proclaimed. I am glad that you <collective> are not the ones guarding my country so my children and I can enjoy all of the wonderful things in this country.

As far as the comment about those who joined for the education, tough shit, in this world there is give and take. I may have issues with my childrens father but I sure as hell can respect a man/woman who backs/stands for what he committed himself too.

Maybe if some of you had to live in the less fortunate countries for a little while you MIGHT appreciate what American soldiers stand for and provide us. But then again maybe you wouldn't.

The al-qaeda Perspective...

...NEWEST OSAMA VIDEO! (http://www.shagrat.net/Html/osama.htm)

[DeV]

I think the point you're missing is that this is not about the soldiers and the job they willingly signed up for. This is about the duty of our government to protect her citizens from threat, to not deliberately lie to us like we're a bunch of retards who can't grasp the concept of necessary and unnecessary reasons and motives behind going to war.

At least speaking for myslelf... I have nothing to say against the soldiers. They are doing a job that they signed up to do and are paid for their service and committment. Bravo to them. Our government is a completely different story. It's not easy for some people to not equate dissatisfaction with government actions to that of a soldiers duty but it really isn't that hard.

[Tsa`ah]

Oy, you assume too much.


Originally posted by Brattt8525
I do believe it states I will obey etc.

So in order to fulfill part 2 of the oath, you should forsake part 1? That doesn't fly.


Myself and my childrens father both were in the Navy, we both knew full well that at some point in our careers we could be deployed. He was I wasn't, he went to Iraq for 12 months, he still won't/can't talk about alot of what happened. He will say he was disillusioned by those that were above him, glory hounds/bad conduct from other units and forces. He still to this day almost a year later states he would go and do it again if called upon.

Good for him. Don't assume you are the only poster affected.

He was/is in the navy. The danger to him in comparison to those on the ground is like night and day. Was he still in danger? Absolutely. There exist a huge gap in the ratio however.


Those who say we didn't need to go/waste of our men are soon forgetting the terrorist attacks on our country.

That Iraq had nothing to do with.


Also there seems to be alot of speculative things being said/proclaimed. I am glad that you <collective> are not the ones guarding my country so my children and I can enjoy all of the wonderful things in this country.

That Iraq was not endangering.


As far as the comment about those who joined for the education, tough shit, in this world there is give and take. I may have issues with my childrens father but I sure as hell can respect a man/woman who backs/stands for what he committed himself too.

Again good for you. But those enlisting for the education singed up as defenders of this Nation and the Constitution that governs it; not as invaders.


Maybe if some of you had to live in the less fortunate countries for a little while you MIGHT appreciate what American soldiers stand for and provide us. But then again maybe you wouldn't.

God that reminds me of a web toon.

The point you are missing, and missing by miles it appears, is that Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11.

Let me repeat that.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11.

Iraq posed no threat to the US.

Let me repeat that as well.

Iraq posed no threat to the US.

Now, if we saddled up with the intent of toppling a stain on humanity that needed to be erased, and that was the reason given, along with an ass load of truths; most of the anti-war crowd would be behind the administration.

That didn't happen.

Instead we were lied to.
Instead we secured the oil first ... the people and weapons last.
We ignored the museums, we ignored the hospitals, we ignored many things (including the safety of our own troops), but our focus was on the oil first.

So let me recap for you.

We invaded on a lie.
Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11.
Iraq posed no threat to the US.
We went after the oil first and with all due ferocity.

[Edited on 1-27-2005 by Tsa`ah]

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by Backlash
As many have pointed out, the real mastermind of 9/11 still runs free. It blows my mind how patently obvious of a fuck up this administration is.

I wouldn't say "run's free". I'd say, is hunted worldwide.

However, confessed alcoholic drug abusers still run free too. My mind is blown. We should have a love in and hope it just gets better, right?

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Try as the administration has, they lack evidence.

For years Sadam offered cash to the families of suicide bombers for successful attempts on US targets but action against Sadam was never directly taken.

To Osama and his group, and many others, Sadam was an infidel. After Sadam had a ranking member of Al qaeda executed, it's probably safe to say that Sadam was on a list somewhere.

The attempts to link Iraq to 9-11 were more of a bad after thought when the WMD smoke screen proved ineffective.


Bolded area is enough for us to remove him from power, IMO.

What would the UN and world "powers" say if Bill Gates started offering up 1 million dollars to US suicide bombers families for each Middle East target? We'd get hosed.

[Warriorbird]

"However, confessed alcoholic drug abusers still run free too. "

Not many of them blew up a highly populated New York business complex.

[Back]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage

Originally posted by Backlash
As many have pointed out, the real mastermind of 9/11 still runs free. It blows my mind how patently obvious of a fuck up this administration is.

I wouldn't say "run's free". I'd say, is hunted worldwide.

However, confessed alcoholic drug abusers still run free too. My mind is blown. We should have a love in and hope it just gets better, right?

Sounds like you need a hug yourself.

But you have inadvertantly made a very good point. On top of agreeing that the real man responsible for 9/11 is still out there somewhere, you suggest we might want to step back a minute and take care of problems we have here at home and that it is hard to understand why we haven’t.

I agree. 100%. Lets take care of our problems here at home instead of going half way around the world so we can ensure the Iraqi of tomorrow can vote when we can’t even get our own process straight.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Nieninque
All of whom were led by the information presented to them by Bush

That's completely false.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

We could wall up all the borders and call it "Fortess America", I love it. Because ignoring the rest of the world will SURELY make the problems go away!

[Warriorbird]

That's been a conservative platform many times in the past. Shockingly, it actually IS financially conservative.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Adredrin
Bolded area is enough for us to remove him from power, IMO.

What would the UN and world "powers" say if Bill Gates started offering up 1 million dollars to US suicide bombers families for each Middle East target? We'd get hosed.

Oh I agree, yet action should have been taken much sooner that this, and the reasoning should never be masked.

Sadam should have been popped when he invaded Kuwait. He should have been popped when he made such an offer to any terrorist .... and post haste.

You'll not hear me argue differently. He is scum and not deserving of another living breath.

My beef is with the smoke our administration is blowing. Some people don't mind being lied to so long as they agree with the lie. Some don't mind defending a lie. When it involves the blood and life of fellow Americans, brothers, sisters, moms, dads, relatives and neighbors ... I want the fucking truth.

I don't want profiteering at the expense of our own. I don't want the fat cats cashing in on the lives of our soldiers.

Every dime flowing out of Iraq and into US coffers should be put back into Iraq and the soldiers risking their lives for a lie. For the soldiers that have died for a lie. For the families suffering, here and there, over a lie.

But what happened? A blank check was given over to Hali, and our soldiers go without.

Very nice job Dubya.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash
As many have pointed out, the real mastermind of 9/11 still runs free. It blows my mind how patently obvious of a fuck up this administration is.

Let me put a 50 million dollar bounty on your head.. dead or alive.. and you tell me how 'free' you are.

Also, I'll go hide out in California and or Nevada. I'll pay you a million dollars if you can find me if you give me plenty of notice you are looking for me. If you can't find me in a year, you owe me a million dollars.

Wanna bet I win?

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Hulkein

That's completely false.

No that's true. The administration had every opportunity to verify, but they went with it and placed the intel and the patriot act on the desks of the reps and senate while the ink was still wet ... literally.

[Warriorbird]

"Wanna bet I win?"

Not if you had America's full capabilities looking for you. But there's that critically important Iraq thing. So much more important than an attack on American soil.

[CrystalTears]

So are you saying that the intelligence reports stating the possibility of WMD in Iraq, which was referred to by the whole world, was all fabricated by Bush in order for him to go to war for oil? And I'M the simple one??!

CT are you Cuban?

Edited to Add: If I was Cuban, I'd :heart: Bush too, especially en Florida.

[Edited on 1-27-2005 by Stanley Burrell]

[CrystalTears]

Heh, yeah. I'm afraid to find out why you ask.

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Heh, yeah. I'm afraid to find out why you ask.

Nah, it just seemed like you were Bush fan, is all.

[Tsa`ah]

No, I'm saying that the Administration had every opportunity to verify the word of Iraqi exiles and chose to take them (ignorantly) as credible.

Now if you're referring to the "coalition of the willing" as all of the world ... then we have some speaking to do.

The UN, which represents most of the word, rejected the intel because it lacked credibility. Only GB and the US (along with the coalition of the willing ... snicker snicker ... ) accepted the intel.

Tony Blair even apologized for accepting the intel as justification of invasion.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
So are you saying that the intelligence reports stating the possibility of WMD in Iraq, which was referred to by the whole world, was all fabricated by Bush in order for him to go to war for oil? And I'M the simple one??!

CT, you didn't even get HALF of it right.

You completely forgot:

* PROFITS FOR HIS FRIENDS IN OIL INDUSTRY!

* PROFITS FOR HIS FRIENDS IN HALIBURTON!

* BECAUSE SADDAM THREATENED HIS DADDY!

* BECAUSE HE WANTED TO JUMP START THE ECONOMY AFTER 9-11 AND GOING TO WAR WAS THE BEST WAY.

If you are going to post all their bullshit.. get it all down.

[CrystalTears]

I am a Bush supporter, but I don't know what that has to do with being Cuban. I've been living in Connecticut during Bush's administration and my fiance, who is far from Cuban, is for Bush as well. Just not understanding the connection.

[Back]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Backlash
As many have pointed out, the real mastermind of 9/11 still runs free. It blows my mind how patently obvious of a fuck up this administration is.

Let me put a 50 million dollar bounty on your head.. dead or alive.. and you tell me how 'free' you are.

Also, I'll go hide out in California and or Nevada. I'll pay you a million dollars if you can find me if you give me plenty of notice you are looking for me. If you can't find me in a year, you owe me a million dollars.

Wanna bet I win?

You are working backwards from an illogical conclusion. In your analogy, I’m Bin Ladin. What if we change that small detail and instead I am Saddam.

Either way, your analogy makes absolutely no sense other than to defend huge mistakes that have been made.

Yikes. I thought you were a Bush supporter for Ethnic/Immigration reasons, my stereotypical bad. :blush:

[Warriorbird]

Forgot Kellog, Brown, and Root.
Getting our soldiers out from bases in Saudi Arabia.
The Carlyle Group
Because it makes him look good.
Lowering gas prices.
Working towards the eventual breakup of OPEC.
Promoting American hegemony.
A bunch of hawkish conservative Jewish advisers who hate Islam.
Iraq funding suicide bombers.
A stepping stone towards taking out Iran.

And, oh yeah, the innoncent Iraqis and all the Kurds we left to die.

[Edited on 1-27-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Edited on 1-27-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
No, I'm saying that the Administration had every opportunity to verify the word of Iraqi exiles and chose to take them (ignorantly) as credible.

Now if you're referring to the "coalition of the willing" as all of the world ... then we have some speaking to do.

The UN, which represents most of the word, rejected the intel because it lacked credibility. Only GB and the US (along with the coalition of the willing ... snicker snicker ... ) accepted the intel.

Tony Blair even apologized for accepting the intel as justification of invasion.

George W must be a god damn genius if he was able to pull the wool over the eyes of every member of Congress the way he did with the same Intel. People say he's slow, but he makes the Democrats look like fucking sheep for following him into Iraq like they did.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Backlash
As many have pointed out, the real mastermind of 9/11 still runs free. It blows my mind how patently obvious of a fuck up this administration is.

Let me put a 50 million dollar bounty on your head.. dead or alive.. and you tell me how 'free' you are.

Also, I'll go hide out in California and or Nevada. I'll pay you a million dollars if you can find me if you give me plenty of notice you are looking for me. If you can't find me in a year, you owe me a million dollars.

Wanna bet I win?

You are working backwards from an illogical conclusion. In your analogy, I’m Bin Ladin. What if we change that small detail and instead I am Saddam.

Either way, your analogy makes absolutely no sense other than to defend huge mistakes that have been made.

Us getting Saddam was a complete lucky break. We have yet to have that same lucky break with Bin Laden.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
George W must be a god damn genius if he was able to pull the wool over the eyes of every member of Congress the way he did with the same Intel. People say he's slow, but he makes the Democrats look like fucking sheep for following him into Iraq like they did.

On the heals of 9-11, in the wake of fear ... you don't have to be a genius, just opportunistic.

Keep them in fear and they'll agree to anything.

We know Dubya isn't a genius.

[Warriorbird]

"the Democrats look like fucking sheep"

The Democrats = fucking sheep
52% of America = Hmmm....

Us all = sheep.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Originally posted by Parkbandit
George W must be a god damn genius if he was able to pull the wool over the eyes of every member of Congress the way he did with the same Intel. People say he's slow, but he makes the Democrats look like fucking sheep for following him into Iraq like they did.

On the heals of 9-11, in the wake of fear ... you don't have to be a genius, just opportunistic.

Keep them in fear and they'll agree to anything.

We know Dubya isn't a genius. Exactly. Fear is one hell of a motivating force when it comes to government agenda. It worked wonders for Saddam.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Maimara
Yeah, I was referring to people dying, and I'm sorry but I think it's really callous of anybody to justify someone's death with 'it had to be done'.War is never justified. War is never good. I couldn't make the decision to have 200,000 people definitely die instead of 20,000,000 people maybe die. Could you?
Originally posted by Wezas
we could have pulled out most of our troopsThis line of thinking fucking sickens me.

[Warriorbird]

"Those who say we didn't need to go/waste of our men are soon forgetting the terrorist attacks on our country"

And this me. The Iraq war had little to do with those attacks. Waving them like a red flag is ridiculous. Sadly, it convinces a lot of weak minded people.

[CrystalTears]

Iraq harbored some terrorists that HAVE attacked us on our soil. Why is the 9/11 attack the only one that matters to some people?

[Warriorbird]

Some logic breakdowns there, CT.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by DeVExactly. Fear is one hell of a motivating force when it comes to government agenda. It worked wonders for Saddam.

Comparing Bush to Saddam makes you an idiot in my book. Chapter 1.

[DeV]

And Saudi Arabia hasn't harbored terrorists? Syria? Iran?

It matters because that was the excuse used to justify going to war.

[CrystalTears]

WTF? I'm being serious. Why is the 9/11 attack the only one people are concerned with when there have been others?

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by DeVExactly. Fear is one hell of a motivating force when it comes to government agenda. It worked wonders for Saddam.

Comparing Bush to Saddam makes you an idiot in my book. Chapter 1. :lol: Coming from you, that's quite alright. Too bad you consider it a comparison and not a simple anology using common sense. That's what makes it funny.

[Warriorbird]

"Why is the 9/11 attack the only one that matters to some people?"

Hmm...

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by DeVExactly. Fear is one hell of a motivating force when it comes to government agenda. It worked wonders for Saddam.

Comparing Bush to Saddam makes you an idiot in my book. Chapter 1. :lol: Coming from you, that's quite alright. Too bad you consider it a comparison and not a simple anology using common sense. That's what makes it funny.

It's the same song and dance everytime with you DeV. Bush is ruling us by fear.

Sorry, I simply don't buy into it.

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"Those who say we didn't need to go/waste of our men are soon forgetting the terrorist attacks on our country"

And this me. The Iraq war had little to do with those attacks. Waving them like a red flag is ridiculous. Sadly, it convinces a lot of weak minded people.

Which is why, I say, strap Bush with an AK-47, and parachute him into the middle of Baghdad. Let him fight his own war.

IN THE MEANTIME, let's actually expend our forces in Afghanistan where they are needed and get the terrorist (even though he's "not that important anymore as an inidividual") who did THIS to our country.

just don't damage the trans-Afghan pipeline while you're there.

[Edited on 1-27-2005 by Stanley Burrell]

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Wezas
we could have pulled out most of our troopsThis line of thinking fucking sickens me.

Well I guess that makes me a bad person.

I believe if we had more nations involved we could have better handled the problem. More nations = more troops = more coverage and hopefully a quicker resolution.

Instead, we have soldiers who are supposed to be going home having their stay extended because we gave the big middle finger to the UN. And I'm sure their cheery morale about that is going to help them do their job.

[CrystalTears]

Don't be so condescending. I understand the huge impact that 9/11 brought, but it's not the ONLY terrorist attack on this country and shouldn't be the ONLY reason to go after only CERTAIN terrorists. Terrorists are terrorists and slowing as many down as possible is a step in the right direction.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Wezas
I believe if we had more nations involved we could have better handled the problem. More nations = more troops = more coverage and hopefully a quicker resolution. Probably true. That's not what you said, though.

[Warriorbird]

I think the issue with that is we've funded so damn many of them. Leads to some unwillingness.

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Don't be so condescending. I understand the huge impact that 9/11 brought, but it's not the ONLY terrorist attack on this country and shouldn't be the ONLY reason to go after only CERTAIN terrorists. Terrorists are terrorists and slowing as many down as possible is a step in the right direction.

Darn skippy.

And in the words of the Great King George II, "We shall make no distinction between terrorists and the countries who harbor them."

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
It's the same song and dance everytime with you DeV. Bush is ruling us by fear.

Sorry, I simply don't buy into it. And your song and dance is new? ... enlighten me if not because you have been spewing the same old same old as long as I have.

At least I can debate politics without the use of insults... though that particular one-armed jab was extra funny coming from you.

I quoted Tsa'ah ... and don't recall the last time I said Bush was ruling us by fear. Do some research and refresh my memory if you'd like. If not, stfu and continue not buying into it.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Warriorbird
I actually think simply knocking off Saddam (preferably in the first war) and then concentrating on chasing Bin Laden to wherever the hell he lays his head would've been the superior course.

I could not agree more!!!

I believe that we made a fundamental flaw in not going all the way into Iraq and forcing out the Government in the first Gulf War. We had every right to topple that government at that time. Instead we spent the next 12 years with that fucknut in power and playing games with him.


I could be wrong but I believe they didn't "go all the way" in the first Gulf war because they believed it would be a long and protracted war, expensive, with no viable exit strategy.

But since then we have found better ways to do it......oh shit we haven't

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Parkbandit
It's the same song and dance everytime with you DeV. Bush is ruling us by fear.

Sorry, I simply don't buy into it. And your song and dance is new? ... enlighten me if not because you have been spewing the same old same old as long as I have.

At least I can debate politics without the use of insults... though that particular one-armed jab was extra funny coming from you.

I quoted Tsa'ah ... and don't recall the last time I said Bush was ruling us by fear. Do some research and refresh my memory if you'd like. If not, stfu and continue not buying into it.

I was like FINE BITCH.. All I have to do is do a search here for fear and DeV and I'll just post all your quotes. I'LL SHOW YOU.

Well, I didn't find one post that you posted about fear and Bush.. so I'll still give you chapter 1, just because you are a liberal.. but I'll add myself to a prelude.

Originally posted by Maimara
It's kind of like cancer. You're okay with it, until it happens to someone you care about.

Sorry. If you think that this Iraq is worth it, I would urge you to speak with the family of someone who died over there, or a friend.

The fact that many of those over that have died did so willingly does not make me feel sorry for them. It makes me proud that people cna still have convictions that they would put their life on the line for. I hope that if that if the worst happens to me, people wont feel sorry for me or my family, I hope they will be proud of what I have sent out to accomplish in life, proud of the things I had accomplished, and happy knowing that I am now in a better place.

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
I don't believe the oath states anything about invading countries that pose no threat to the US.

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

[Keller]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Bush led us to war. Want to get mad at the way it was handled, how soon they went in, how it was structured? Fine. But to say that all of it was a lie is just naive since his information was given to him by intelligence agencies. The same information that was given to other people and countries. Where exactly is the lie? You really think he deceived people into believing that Iraq had WMD? How exactly? What information did he fabricate to the world to believe it?

Rathergate, anyone?

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I was like FINE BITCH.. All I have to do is do a search here for fear and DeV and I'll just post all your quotes. I'LL SHOW YOU. Hehe... :lol:



Well, I didn't find one post that you posted about fear and Bush.. so I'll still give you chapter 1, just because you are a liberal.. but I'll add myself to a prelude. Moderate Independent, damnit... get it right! I'll give you your Chapter 1 and your prelude with your old senile ass.
Until next time...

[Keller]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Wezas

So they thought there were WMD - that point aside, once we found none - we should have gotten the fuck out.

What would that have done to the country had we just left at that point in time?

Sounds easy as hell Wezas.. until you think of the consequences.

The administration made it sound easy as hell. We'll only need a little money, a few troops, and we'll have Japan-II in a couple of months!

I wish you could have been at the anti-war lecture a couple of my friends put on in early '02 where a slavic/near-eastern prof gave a 30 minute lecture on the post-war meyhem that would ensue after their structure of power (be it tyrannical or otherwise) was removed. At the time, the war proponents at my school slandered him for being an intellectual left-wing snob. They said it was all a farce and that he had spent too much time in his ivory tower.




oops?

[Tsa`ah]

I knew I could count on your lack of comprehension Dave.

[Keller]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage

Originally posted by Backlash
As many have pointed out, the real mastermind of 9/11 still runs free. It blows my mind how patently obvious of a fuck up this administration is.

I wouldn't say "run's free". I'd say, is hunted worldwide.

However, confessed alcoholic drug abusers still run free too. My mind is blown. We should have a love in and hope it just gets better, right?

No, we should go to war with Anheiser-Busch. We should coup Coors. We need to fucking pwn that little bitch Sam Adams. After that we can put all those alcoholic drug-abusing criminals in jail where they belong. You and I can pay for it. It'll be the best few billion bucks we'll every spend. Hip-hip-hoo-ray!

PS - There is a confessed drug-abusing alcoholic who is leads the free world. Is this what you're refering to?

He gets a love-in everyday from his Bob-Jones U, Wheaton College, and Reagents Law School interns. And to think that Clinton was impeached for having an intern lay-hands on him. Hmmph!

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Keller
And to think that Clinton was impeached for having an intern lay-hands on him. Hmmph!

That wasn't why he was impeached.

[Warriorbird]

He was impeached because all the fat interns in D.C. wanted to be with him. The Republican Congress had no one to keep them company when they made claims about family values that they didn't really believe (at least Gingrich). ....

Seriously....

He was the last decent leader the Democrats have had, even if he couldn't keep his pants zipped. That was intensely frightening to the Republicans. Fortunately for them, the next decent one on the horizon is Barack Obama and they'll be able to use the religious right to spread all sorts of fallacious bile, Lee Atwater style, to keep him out of the White House even if he does run, which I doubt.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Seriously....

He was the last decent leader the Democrats have had, even if he couldn't keep his pants zipped.

How about "He was the last decent orator the Democrats have had."

[CrystalTears]

:rofl:

Damnit PB don't turn me into a groupie! I refuse! I see myself creating a horde hottie for you if you keep this up. Damn you.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
:rofl:

Damnit PB don't turn me into a groupie! I refuse! I see myself creating a horde hottie for you if you keep this up. Damn you.

There's plenty of room in my herd for you toots.

-Bayne the Tauren bull.

[Keller]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Keller
And to think that Clinton was impeached for having an intern lay-hands on him. Hmmph!

That wasn't why he was impeached.

My joke doesn't make sense if I include the whole lying thing. Why must you ruin everything?

[Back]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
We could wall up all the borders and call it "Fortess America", I love it. Because ignoring the rest of the world will SURELY make the problems go away!

We pretty much did ignore the rest of the world when we invaded Iraq. You say coalition of the willing, I say coalition of the coaxed. It was no where near a majority of countries of the world, and, guess who has to deal with it now.

You’ve got it completely backwards. We’ve built a wall, but are LESS secure and LESS stable than when we started.

So you may ask, Backlash, WTF? Why bring up all this negativity? My answer. To talk about it, understand it, see what works and what dosen’t, and move forward with better plans. Thats all.

Because despite what the fascists will tell you, I am not your enemy and I love this country as much as you do.

[Alarke]

The thing that makes me sick is all this talk of imposing Democracy in Iraq. Listen to me before you jump my ass about being a communist, because I am all for the current situation of our government, but as Aristotle put it, democracy is mob rule, and what we have is a Liberal Constitutionalism, I suggest reading some short articles by Fareed Zakaria and you'll see an amazing view of the whole Iraq situation. It is, in my opinion, the best view while completely avoiding all the media hype and rumors. Those of you that call others on only following hype are doing the same yourself, step back, try reading one of his articles on Iraq and tell me what you think.

[Warriorbird]

Zakaria's one've the sources I really respect on the whole matter, especially considering how darn centrist he is. One of my other sources is Paul Wolfowitz's writings, which bothers the conservatives because he's a huge source of influence on our policy on Iraq, and reading him is pretty distressing.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Keller

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Keller
And to think that Clinton was impeached for having an intern lay-hands on him. Hmmph!

That wasn't why he was impeached.

My joke doesn't make sense if I include the whole lying thing. Why must you ruin everything?

Because I don't want the ignorance to spread. You wouldn't believe all the people that really believe that was the reason.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
We could wall up all the borders and call it "Fortess America", I love it. Because ignoring the rest of the world will SURELY make the problems go away!


You’ve got it completely backwards. We’ve built a wall, but are LESS secure and LESS stable than when we started.

Because despite what the fascists will tell you, I am not your enemy and I love this country as much as you do.

Backlash.. you really need to find another word. You make me snicker when you use "FASCIST" or "FASCISM" in all your posts.

And if the "wall" has become less secure and less stable... why was it that the best attack Bin Laden could do prior to our elections a little video tape?

Things are certainly not perfect.. things still have gaping holes in them.. but we are more secure today than at any other time in history.

[Back]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
We could wall up all the borders and call it "Fortess America", I love it. Because ignoring the rest of the world will SURELY make the problems go away!


You’ve got it completely backwards. We’ve built a wall, but are LESS secure and LESS stable than when we started.

Because despite what the fascists will tell you, I am not your enemy and I love this country as much as you do.

Backlash.. you really need to find another word. You make me snicker when you use "FASCIST" or "FASCISM" in all your posts.

And if the "wall" has become less secure and less stable... why was it that the best attack Bin Laden could do prior to our elections a little video tape?

Things are certainly not perfect.. things still have gaping holes in them.. but we are more secure today than at any other time in history.

I’ll keep using it as I see it, PB. But I’ll make you a deal. As soon as necons stop using liberal as a dirty word, I’ll suspend my use of the term fascist.

About the wall... I find SHM’s statement highly ironic. Because we built a wall as soon as we jumped into Iraq without the UN. Yes yes you are going to argue the same old tired bullshit about not needing a permission slip. And I agree but when it is warranted. I don’t feel it was in this particular case. Afganistan, yeah, Iraq no.