All Hail WarriorStone 4!!!

[StrayRogue]

I have just been reading claims by Uliq that the DS system is balanced across the board. So, knowing how our beloved GMs chat shit, I went had a play around. These are my findings:

Generic Sorc, 1x shield and Edged (baseline here is meant to be .5x in both these skills, also bearing in mind the Staves give even less DS than this baseline training), who is doubled in spells, maximized for DS.

His DS at 100 with 5x equipment is...437 (or 537 with walls, or 412 in his guarded, hunting stance)

Stay, who, for all intents and purposes is already Uber, has downgraded his gear to a simple 4x axe, shield and his FGB, he is also losing maybe 30+ spells. 2x shield and dodge.

His DS at 100 with less than 4x equipment is...631 in defensive, or 390 in Offensive, his hunting stance. Bump up to 5x gear, and his DS in offensive is as good as a sorcerer in guarded.

Plus he has the chance to dodge, block, as well as redux and his FGB to absorb the blow (he could wear plate).

His attack strength you say? Oh, only 457. Yes, only enough to hit a incredibly well trained sorcerer IN DEFENSIVE.

ALL HAIL WARRIORSTONE 4

[StrayRogue]

More numbers...

Generic Dark Elf Sorcerer, 1x shield and Edged (baseline here is meant to be .5x in both these skills, also bearing in mind the Staves give even less DS than this baseline training), who is doubled in spells, maximized for DS in regards to has 430 maxed, +90 DS from CoS and has access to WoF and the +50 Airwall.

His DS at 20 with 5x equipment is...228 (or 217 in guarded)
His DS at 50 with 5x equipment is...340 (or 324 in guarded)
His DS at 100 with 5x equipment is...437 (or 537 with walls, or 412 in his guarded, hunting stance)

Generic Dark Elf Rogue, 2x shield, dodge and edged. Has limited access to basic spells up to 406 (self-cast).

His DS at 20 with 4x equipment is...264 (or 188 in offensive) Please note his AS is 221. 226 if he uses a 5x weapon like the Sorcerer. The AS is enough to hit a sorcerer in guarded.
His DS at 50 with 4x equipment is...403 (or 265 in offensive).
His DS at 100 with 4x equipment is...631 (or 390 in offensive). Please note his AS is 457, enough to easily hit a sorcerer in Guarded stance.

Please also take into consideration, my rogue, unlike my sorcerer, can block twice as well, dodge, plus has the benefit of being able to absorb any shot with his redux and ability to wear medium to heavy armor. Plus he can further reduce the rediculous difference between AS and DS with his ambush skill.

Now, these are two hardly amazingly trained characters. Imagine a warrior fully 2xed in CM, 3x in Shield, and 2x Dodge in the same situation?

Now, please, point me to the "Balance"?

[Ilvane]

Hey, we all have our weaknesses. I'm an elven warrior. I'm going to have some changes to the way things work for me too.

They are going to be downtweaking a lot of things, I wouldn't get upset about it quite yet.

-A

[StrayRogue]

Oh hell no! I am a rogue, Stay is going to be able to own Sorcerer's his own age in guarded stance. Not to mention Wizards, Clerics and Empaths. I am positively effected by this. I still do think its a pile of shit however.

[Edaarin]

prep 720
cast warrior

prep 719
cast warrior

chant 719

prep 705
cast warrior

I still can't ward worth shit converted to level 60.

[GSTamral]

well for one, warriors and rogues, even fully spelled, cannot even hope to ward a similar age caster. An 85 train caster can kill me in one shot roughly 100% of the time with estrike.

People aren't meant to be constantly hunting other adventurers. With the new combat system in place, it will put all the classes on even ground. Redux didnt exist until I was well over 50. The armor changes (which were needed for years since the loss of heavy hide) didn't come until I was 40.

Squares have been playing the uphill game for years, and still do. If GS4 evens that out a bit, well thats great. It's about time.

Next step towards redemption is elimination of multi-accounter zombies who use spellbots. Make people earn their spells.

The easiest way to accomplish this is to make more spells self cast, or by making the spells wear off shorter and with less effect when you leave the casters group.

That sucks. :/ I'm thinking of imploding a GM.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by GSTamral
well for one, warriors and rogues, even fully spelled, cannot even hope to ward a similar age caster. An 85 train caster can kill me in one shot roughly 100% of the time with estrike.

People aren't meant to be constantly hunting other adventurers. With the new combat system in place, it will put all the classes on even ground. Redux didnt exist until I was well over 50. The armor changes (which were needed for years since the loss of heavy hide) didn't come until I was 40.

Squares have been playing the uphill game for years, and still do. If GS4 evens that out a bit, well thats great. It's about time.

Next step towards redemption is elimination of multi-accounter zombies who use spellbots. Make people earn their spells.

The easiest way to accomplish this is to make more spells self cast, or by making the spells wear off shorter and with less effect when you leave the casters group.

Um, how can you balance any hunting area where my Offensive DS is equal to that of a Guarded Sorcerer? Its impossible to make it a challenge for me, while making it unhuntable by the sorcerer. PvP is only a tiny fraction of this problem.

[Artha]

Spell casting critters (own squares) and weapon swinging critters (own casters).

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Artha
Spell casting critters (own squares) and weapon swinging critters (own casters).

They haven't yet :cool:

I don't see any real problems I'll be having as a giantman wizard of 56 (47 in GSIV).

[Warriorbird]

It'd all mean something, Stray...cept every warrior that doesn't use ranged or thrown missing 30% of their attacks in GS4...and every ambusher missing 35%

[Neildo]

Any idea how much redux has been dropped? I hope it's darned near non-existant. There should be no semi-dux and the redux for squares should be very minimal only to have it be a slight bonus for them being pure arms-users. With all the dodging, evading, blocking, extra DS from dodging, new CM manuever lists, they should be on par with semi's and the like.

- N

[Edaarin]

It's hard to gauge how much redux you have, because DF's may have been changed, but my test warriors redux went from 75%ish to just under 50% using xygon's calculator (drop from lvl 80 to lvl 60)

[Edaarin]

Keeping in mind that's with slightly better redux training than before (no hiding, bumped PT from 1.7x to 2x, 1x dodge (dunno if that's a redux skill), no mana share, fully 1x'ed in ambush instead of .8x)

[StrayRogue]

As someone said, PvP is not the issue. Please someone tell me how critters can be balanced with the above numbers? Anyone?

[Artha]

Alright, we're assuming your average caster can ward wonderfully, and your average square can't. We're also assuming your average square has a bit more DS than the square.

So: Creatures that cast have enough of a CS to pose a challenge to casters, and completely destroy any square who gives them a chance to cast.

Creatures that do not cast have enough of an AS to pose a challenge to squares, and completely destroy casters.

[StrayRogue]

Average caster is just that. Average. Remember the sorcerers cannot dodge. My Rogue can. You just proved my point. Squares will not be able to hunt casting crittes. Pures cannot hunt anything a like leveled square can hunt. Unbalanced. But hey, it means I can fuck up pretty much any sorc within 20 lvls of me.

[Artha]

Alright, since apparently you missed it.

Critters that cast get to be hunted by casters.
Critters that swing get to be hunted by squares.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Artha
Alright, since apparently you missed it.

Critters that cast get to be hunted by casters.
Critters that swing get to be hunted by squares.

Do me a favour, and never become a GM. The above is, 1, boring, 2, impossible unless all critters are moved and swapped about to make areas of "only critters that swing/cast", and 3, utterly idiotic. Its NOT balanced. Or do you need my lvl 15 rogue to cut the head off your lvl 30 sorc to open your eyes?

[Artha]

I'd ward you before you could :)

[StrayRogue]

Can't ward what you can't see. So, I could sweep, swift kick, or just hit you, and you'd be dead.

[Artha]

Doesn't take too long to type

prep 706
cast rogue

Assuming you weren't bugging me from hiding, that is.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Artha
Doesn't take too long to type

prep 706
cast rogue

Assuming you weren't bugging me from hiding, that is.

Didn't I just say I was in hiding? You wouldn't even know I was there until after the You seem to have died my friend.

Gotta love these ass-kissing pures. Making it much easier for us squares.

[Artha]

Meh, just complain on the official boards, where important people read stuff.

[StrayRogue]

I emailed a comprehensive study to Melissa and Warden a few days ago. No reply. I doubt I'd get one on the offical boards beyond them picking on my spelling or something. Anything so that they don't have to answer the questions I ask.

[Warriorbird]

Study ain't comprehensive because everything isn't out and the creatures aren't all adjusted. Just keep posting in the testing area with your unranting observations and things might shift a bit. As it is, though? I think hunting pures in GS4 will be a lot more fun than weapon swingers.

[StrayRogue]

Hey, its just the numbers from the mechanics they've posted. If you think there is nothing wrong with huge differentials betweem Pure and Square DS, good for you.

[Warriorbird]

Not if hunts go 5 times faster for a pure. That's worth a little run and gun. In addition, did you calculate in the dodge DS increases/spells that increase in bonus? Are all those even in?

[Edited on 9-14-2003 by Warriorbird]

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Not if hunts go 5 times faster for a pure. That's worth a little run and gun. In addition, did you calculate in the dodge DS increases/spells that increase in bonus? Are all those even in?

[Edited on 9-14-2003 by Warriorbird]

Yep, I did. The sorc and rogue in each example were both self-spelled. Own ranks of dodge were taken into consideration in the DS as well.

[Edaarin]

Okay...let's try this again...

Well, for one thing, level 15 rogue can't know swiftkick. Level 15 rogue likely won't be able to sweep like leveled sorc for more than 3-4 seconds more than 30% of the time. Level 30 sorc can e-wave rogue out of hiding. Level 15 rogue gets to see what happens when trying to attack something twice its level (blocking, parrying, evading go up). Conclusion? It's not as overpowering as you think.

I got my ass handed to me messing around with a like leveled sorceror, because again, its whoever attacks first in GSIV, and there's simply nothing you can do when it takes 3 seconds to hide and it takes them about 1 second to major e-wave.

Again, I don't know what hunting will be like for pures or squares, but reserve judgement until we've had a chance to test it. And if you think I'm an ass kissing GM lover, you obviously have never read my posts on the official boards. Civilty costs nothing.

EDIT: Yes, I realize that sweeping in my case would have done the trick, but I'm assuming that not all rogues have the benefit of having mastered guild skills.

[Edited on 9-14-2003 by Edaarin]

[Artha]

I did make a post on the official boards.

read it here if you care (http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=30&category=101&topic=3)

[StrayRogue]

...One last time. IT IS NOT ABOUT PVP. It is about balance of critters.