UAC empath

[wetsand]

Is this going to be viable past level 20? My plan right now is to continue 1x brawling, 1x cman, 2x PF, 1x HP, 1x SMC, 1x perception, 2x FA. I might taper off cman to get more spells. Stopping at 203 and 107, and dumping any extra TPs into empath. I will pick up 200's and 100's later on. I will add in lore(s) when I can afford them. My CS is terrible right now, mostly due to my stat placement but wisdom will grow quickly. Once I have the mana/CS, I plan to open hand channel 1106 and follow up with UAC.


Tiny (at level 6), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 5 1
Combat Maneuvers...................| 40 8
Brawling...........................| 40 8
Physical Fitness...................| 58 12
Harness Power......................| 30 6
Spirit Mana Control................| 30 6
Perception.........................| 30 6
First Aid..........................| 58 12

Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 3

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 7

Spell Lists
Empath.............................| 7

Stats set for cap:

Level 0 Stats for Tiny, Halfling Empath

Strength (STR): 94
Constitution (CON): 49
Dexterity (DEX): 70
Agility (AGI): 73
Discipline (DIS): 68
Aura (AUR): 73
Logic (LOG): 68
Intuition (INT): 73
Wisdom (WIS): 30
Influence (INF): 62

[Tenser]

Change your stat placement to get higher logic and wisdom and dump stats you don't need (intuition/influence...maybe discipline). Then at 19th level move all your stats back to where you want to be for the long haul.

I'm not sure of the viability past 20th, but there is a thread in the cleric folder regarding a brawling cleric some guy is leveling. Sounds like he is doing ok so far. Last time he posted he was fighting tree spirits and they are level 26. If a cleric can do it, an empath seems like it would work even better.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?109146-New-Brawling-UAC-Cleric

[khorpulent]

Sounds dull, but I'd bet it's viable past 20. Between 211, 215, 1109 and 1130, empaths are a viable melee class for quite a while. My halfling empath used a naginata till 30 or so, and then THW until 50. I've always found that UAC is an especially good option for halflings, though, because the -15 STR doesn't matter as much. Only problem with UAC is that empaths don't get any of the good CMs to go with it, especially the punch/kick mastery.

I'd guess that DS might be a bit of a problem eventually, since you have no dodging and no ability to parry. You can always use 102 if you have DS troubles. Empaths, at least, can take a hit better than most. To that end, I'd consider going at least 2.5x PF, or 3x if you can. You might want to delay that until you get the spells you need, of course.

Eventually you'll want some MMC ranks for extra 1117 targets, since you can't mstrike.

[Orthin]

If you want your UAC to be viable getting 211 and 215 sooner than later will be important for there UC boosts. And although minimal I would keep Cman 1x until you transition to open hand casting since every UC point will be critical.

We actually have the same training path while I am mastering GoS and it is effective I'm dumping it later for ranged but with selective hunting and society/self spells I could see this lasting until 40s

[kutter]

My brawling empath is late 20's and still doing good, I normally open with boneshatter and then go UAC, it may be my imagination but it seems to put me at a better multiplier than just opening with brawling, but I have no evidence to support that, just my perception.

[Dintarl]

CMAN is definitely where I would take the extra TPs from, if I needed to get something to fit. Between 1109, 211 and 215, you have +55 UAF from spells that you should have by 15th level. A couple points of CMAN is not going to make a difference at early levels. I would suggest having this fully 1x by 50.

1130 is another 20+ UAF, and scales as you level. You should have empath spells at least equal to your level by 30.

Empaths can certainly maintain a great degree of success with physical attacks all the way through cap. Specifically concerning UAC, you have one of my favorite tricks available in your arsenal at somewhat higher levels: web. If you web a critter, you will automatically have excellent positioning against it.

[wetsand]

Thanks for the all the great suggestions.

I'm going to try this layout for a bit:

Tiny (at level 8), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 5 1
Armor Use..........................| 35 7 Stopping at doubles
Brawling...........................| 50 10
Physical Fitness...................| 74 16
Harness Power......................| 40 8
Spirit Mana Control................| 40 8
Perception.........................| 40 8
First Aid..........................| 74 16

Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 8

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 7

Spell Lists
Empath.............................| 9

Dropped cman for more spells. Going to bump up Major to get 211/215 faster.

*edit I forgot to mention I'm running a full wizard spellup as well. So shouldn't really have any DS issues.

[kutter]

Just a suggestion but, as a UAC empath, you might want to go the bit extra to 15 ranks armor and get into breastplate, yes their is hindrance but casting is you secondary attack method not first and the extra protection helps. The one caveat I will say is my UAC wizard is going from doubles to reinforced, but he hunts with celerity on all the time so reducing spell failure by 50% is a big deal for him.

[wetsand]

Just a suggestion but, as a UAC empath, you might want to go the bit extra to 15 ranks armor and get into breastplate, yes their is hindrance but casting is you secondary attack method not first and the extra protection helps. The one caveat I will say is my UAC wizard is going from doubles to reinforced, but he hunts with celerity on all the time so reducing spell failure by 50% is a big deal for him.

I'll push for more armor later on. I think brig would be my goal armor. But thats a ways off.

[Dintarl]

I would suggest going to chain mail, if you intend to go as far as brigandine already. Brig will give you a 7% hindrance when fully trained, and a crit divisor of 7 everywhere. Chain mail is 8%, but increases the crit divisor to the chest/abdomen/back to 9, and most weapons/attacks will have lower damage factors against it, too.

[khorpulent]

I think you people are crazy for wearing anything past double. Not only is spell hindrance intolerable, it’s also dangerous. There’s nothing like a failed cast of 1120 to get yourself killed in a hurry.

Honestly, I’ve never felt any need for heavy armor with my empath. Half of the appeal of playing an empath is that you can take a hit. Between 3x PF, Sunfist padding, and hcp doubles, it takes a pretty high endroll with a big weapon to give me anything other than a minor. And even then I can just, you know, heal myself. And of course, 1120 and 1150 make empaths even more durable.

Considering you’re 3x in spells, I’d call this a pure spellcasting build. There’s not really anything wrong with that – in fact, it’s probably a good bone shatter build since it might help you with open-handed channeling. I guess the brawling ranks will give you a little extra parry DS. At low levels, the only way you’re gonna be able to hunt with 1106 is open-handed offensive channeling – you need that extra +40 on the endroll with such a mana-intensive spell.

If you want to actually do the melee empath thing, you’re gonna need CM. You can probably get away without CM for a little while, but you’ll want to 1x eventually if you want to actually use UAC. I’d also recommend squeezing in some transformation lore. While you may not plan on sitting around TSC healing people, being able to heal yourself quickly is still a valuable combat skill for an empath.

Obviously you can’t just add CM or transformation lore without cutting from somewhere. That would probably have to be minor spirit ranks, since you can get those spells from other characters until you can pick them up on your own. It’s nice to have 120, but you can probably live without it for a while. You could probably also afford more PF ranks if you ditch some of your minor spirit ranks.

[wetsand]

Here's a little update. Still chugging along fine. Moved him to Ta'Vaalor to try out some hunting there. Regarding CM, I think with the addition of 4x gear, strength, 1109, and soon bravery I shouldn't have any real issues with UAF for the time being. I also have some 6x gloves for him once he hits 15. I decided to pick Voln for society because of the mechanical benefits (blessing, seeking, and return). I might readdress the society choice later on. I also decided to pickup 3x FA because I'd like him to be an excellent skinner.


Tiny (at level 10), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Brawling...........................| 58 12
Physical Fitness...................| 96 22
Harness Power......................| 54 11
Spirit Mana Control................| 54 11
Perception.........................| 54 11
Climbing...........................| 50 10
First Aid..........................| 126 33

Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 11

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 7

Spell Lists
Empath.............................| 11

[khorpulent]

Voln is cool, but from Sunfist is much better for empaths from a mechanical standpoint. Here are some reasons:

1. Empaths have a ton of stamina and nothing else to use it on. This means they can actually afford to use Sunfist sigils, unlike other professions. While sigils do also take mana, sigil of power helps to balance that out considerably.
2. Free HCP from major protection (not all of my characters can afford to keep it up constantly, but my empath certainly can). The free weighting against hated foes is nice, too.
3. Sigil of determination is incredibly useful for empaths, as they often tend to be wounded and don’t always have time to heal down (especially with no transformation lore). Yeah, you can still cast empath circle spells with injuries, but I still find myself using it quite often.
4. Sigil of power: even without blessing lore, it will still yield more mana than symbol of mana. With 65 blessing ranks (expensive, but worth it), you can eventually produce a ton of extra mana, but this is definitely a higher-level consideration.

With my capped empath, I have 190 stamina and can use Power 4 times, blow my nerves, use 1107, use it 3 more times, yielding 168 mana. After the 5 minute cooldown, I can do it again. In the meantime, I still get 129 stamina per pulse (with enhancives up – it’s only about 50 without), which translates into 40-50 extra mana a minute. This is obviously irrelevant to you at level 10, but it’s something to keep in mind for the future. It also weakens your 1115 by cutting into your summoning lore, but it’s worth it to me.

5. Sigils of intimidation and distraction are pretty handy for melee/bolt attacks, but they’re probably too mana/stamina intensive for lower levels. I use Distraction all the time with bolts.
6. Sigil of mending is helpful at lower levels, but won’t be for long if you 3x in FA. I still keep it up all the time for the health regeneration bonus.
7. Warcamps are fun. Empaths are good at warcamps.
8. And finally, empaths kind of suck at hunting undead. Your options with 1106 are pretty limited and you won’t be able to afford 1115 for quite a while. Even then, 1115 isn’t terribly impressive against noncorp stuff. You can’t 1120 undead without absurd amounts of telepathy lore, and 1110 is just a mediocre bolt against undead.

I’ll admit, I’m really jealous of symbol of seeking. I’m a bit jealous of symbol of sleep too, but mostly just because it doesn’t affect warcamp shrouds. I guess Smite might be okay if you’re gonna stick with UAC. Transcendence is cool, but I’d rather have HCP. I have 130/225, so I don’t really care about fogging. Sunfist gives me +35 AS/DS against everything, and weighting against hated stuff.

I will also admit that Voln might be a better choice for early levels, simply because of the mana requirements of the sigils. But in the long run, I think Sunfist is the better choice.

Sorry for the unsolicited treatise on the marvels of Sunfist. I’m really just trying to avoid grading papers right now.

[kutter]

khorpulent makes some real good sense with Sunfist, my paladin is sunfist and it is a very powerful society for a melee alt. Having said that, it is without question the most difficult of the 3 to master, and not by a little. Warcamps are death on a stick, maybe they would have been better at an older train, but my paladin did not start being able to manage them halfway well until he had abut 25 ranks of MoC, and that would be a tough nut to crack for a melee empath, especially at lower levels.

Armor is a compromise, his point is valid, IMHO, for a pure casting build, but not nearly so much for a melee empath, but that is just my opinion.

The fact of the matter is that a melee empath is a hybrid build, it is not what would be considered a 'normal' build, so the way forward is not as clear as it is for a caster, have fun with it, that is after all what it is supposed to be, fun.

[khorpulent]

Sunfist is perhaps the biggest pain in the ass to master because of the world tour and trips to Zul. Although I actually just converted my pure wizard from COL at level 97, and it took me about two days. I had enough realms boosts saved up that I just took the chronomage everywhere for free. I honestly find COL the hardest to master because of the goddamn time limits -- last time I attempted to master an alt, I kept getting demoted before I could get my rank.

The warcamp requirement really gives people trouble, but the secret is to do all of your razes before you hit 20 (or even sooner, if possible). If you go into camps under level 15 or so (and under 10 is even easier), the grim basically have no substantial maneuvers or spells. With a full wizard spellup, you're nearly invincible and can just stand there and hack away. That being said, I still find low-level warcamping easiest with squares and hardest with pures. I took my monk through Sunfist a few months ago, and up until level 15 or so, I could literally just stand there and punch stuff, regardless of how many grim came in.

It's a little harder with pures, simply because you don't have the AS/UAF that squares and semis do at lower levels. But warcamping definitely gets significantly harder at the low-mid levels, once they start getting maneuvers and AoE spells. Well, unless you're a warrior who can just berserk.

You can also bring a couple level 0 alts into a warcamp with you if you prefer to warcamp in easy mode.

[wetsand]

Time for a little update incase anyone cares or wants to follow this training path. Doing great in Ta'Vaalor but always thinking about different areas to try. Might move to Zul in a level or two. I'm still undecided about switching societies but leaning towards GoS at this point. I'm going to stop major/minor spiritual spells and put anything extra into empath. I'm not planning on adding any lores until I hit +21 spells in the empath circle. I found some 5x realm flaring UAC gear with T1 ensorcelling on another alt.

Tiny (at level 15), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Brawling...........................| 78 17
Physical Fitness...................| 120 30
Harness Power......................| 70 15
Spirit Mana Control................| 70 15
Perception.........................| 70 15
Climbing...........................| 50 10
First Aid..........................| 145 45

Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 15

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 7

Spell Lists
Empath.............................| 19

You channel at a great stag.
You concentrate intently on a great stag, and a pulse of pearlescent energy ripples toward him!
CS: +68 - TD: +17 + CvA: +25 + d100: +28 == +104
Warding failed!
The great stag shudders with moderate convulsions as pearlescent ripples envelop his body.
The great stag is smashed for 47 points of damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Good blow to right arm!
The great stag is stunned!
... 15 points of damage!
Nice blow to right leg!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

You attempt to jab a great stag!
You have decent positioning against a great stag.
UAF: 144 vs UDF: 131 = 1.099 * MM: 111 + d100: 25 = 147
... and hit for 4 points of damage!
Low jab glances off the left thigh.
Strike leaves foe vulnerable to a followup kick attack!

** Necrotic energy from your padded suede gloves overflows into you! **

You feel energized!

** Your padded suede gloves release a spray of acid! **

... 50 points of damage!
Acid causing a gaping hole in the back can't be healthy!
The great stag collapses to the ground, emits a final sigh, and dies.
Roundtime: 2 sec.

[Maerit]

Sunfist mastery is best done prior to level 10. If you start at level 3, you can be mastered by level 12 just doing warcamp tasks. It's incredibly easy with a wizard spellup to master this society early. Once you get past level 20-25 though, it becomes 10x harder as the critters start using very nasty attacks and have considerably stronger AS/DS.

[khorpulent]

It's definitely easier to raze warcamps before 20, but it's not impossible. You'll probably just need some help if you wanna do it. It's tough to do them solo for most professions for quite a while after 20, though I've found that my warrior and monk could still solo camps at any level.

If you do decide to do Sunfist at some point, hit me up and I can help you with the razes. You only have to hit 5 grim to get credit for the raze, so I can go in and clear out the camp after you hit 5.

You can also cheat and bring in 2-5 level 0 alts with you and clear it out easy peasy. Although that method may not work as well for your UAC empath, since you can't mstrike or even cast 111 or anything. Even if you can just throw fireballs at everything, the splash damage will kill most of the level 0 stuff.

[kutter]

The easiest way to raze a camp is to bring a wizard in with you, get grim to swarm and have him cast meteor shower in several rooms them run out, you can clear a camp fast like that. When I was mastering my paladin, someone razed the last camp he was working on so had to find a new one, it took me about an hour to raze a fresh camp solo with my wizard first then finish off the last 50 or so with my paladin.

[khorpulent]

I've never seen 525 actually work in a warcamp.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Meteor Swarm...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a Grimswarm giant guard.
You throw your arms skyward!
Nothing happens.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You intone a phrase of elemental power while raising your hands, invoking Meteor Swarm...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a Grimswarm giant wizard.
You throw your arms skyward!
Nothing happens.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

[Viekn]

I've never seen 525 actually work in a warcamp...

I found this old post as well stating this...

http://forum.gsplayers.com/archive/index.php/t-43670.html

[khorpulent]

Kinda lame that they block 525 in camps. They ought to just make it automatically set off the shroud so that you get stunned and put in RT and then killed by your own meteors. But at least you'd take some Grim down with you!

[Erous]

I mastered sunfist in my 60's or 70's if I recall. it's not impossible, just much harder. Implode tends to be the kicker and swarms get tight if you don't manage them.

[kutter]

I could be mistaken, I mastered some years back, but pretty sure it was Meteor Storm, unless it was Cone of Lightning before it got nerfed. I have killed a lot of brain cells since then so it is very possible I do not remember it correctly. I could have sworn though once the camp was stirred up like a hive of hornets he started in the farthest north room and then went south to the middle and east and west one then to the exit and cast in those 4 and ran out. I would have to get my desktop out of storage but I thought I even had a little script for it.

Either way, not sure I would go Sunfist again unless I did as someone suggested and did it fast and dirty before making 10, then it would likely be a lot easier. I keep thinking about switching my rogue from CoL to Sunfst but the thought of it is just too much.

[khorpulent]

Yeah, I think squares are best off switching to Sunfist much later in life (not that this has any bearing on this discussion in the Empath forum). My warrior did Voln until about level 90, and then I switched him over to Sunfist. Of course, then they released the Voln update like a month later.

But before 90+, it's hard to have enough stamina and mana to keep all the sigils up as a square. Even at cap with 3x PF, my warrior still needed stamina regen enhancives to be able to keep up major protection/bane and still be able to berserk and use maneuvers.