George W. Bush

[GSLeloo]

After watching the Democratic debate and their rather accurate (and hysterical) description of Bush and his policy and how his presidency has gone... I was just wondering what other people thought about him and how he's been at running our country.

[Warriorbird]

He's a highly efficient pawn who sometimes gets allowed to run rampant. I wish there was some way that someone who's a social liberal and a fiscal conservative could really be satisfied with a politician in this country, but under the current system there really isn't.

[GS4Gurl]

I voted for Gore. However, I am generally pleased with Bush. I am also glad we went to war. Pushing Sadaam out was long overdue. Glad they got his sons too. YAY!
The next Presidential election I most likely will be voting for Bush.

...is stupid.

[Tendarian]

I think if he could take a lesson from Tony Blair in public speaking he would be fantastic. As is i like him a lot and will be voting for him again come 2004.

[GSLeloo]

Wow... scary thing is I actually just this ONCE agree with Klaive. Bush is stupid. And what made it so funny was that the democrats just kept pointing out how stupid he was. It's something good to see, if any of you get a chance.

[StrayRogue]

Oh, please don't get me started...

Basically, I am not a Bush fan. While Clinton wasn't much better (he got more work done in the last month of office than the rest of his years combined), he atleast had some charisma beyond asking Daddy to do all the work.

Bush has done some very under-handed things in his time, as well as mis-represent your country on many others. Here is a brilliant quote from George "dubbya"...

"Its amazing I won. I was running against peace, prosperity and incumbency"

He was speaking to the Swedish Prime Minister Goran Perrson, June 14th, 2001, unaware that the cameras were still rolling.

Added to the fact of him allowing oil drilling in Alaskan nature reserves, and the whole Iraq situation, Farce might best describe Bush II's reign in my eyes.

[GS4Gurl]

Well, so he isn't the best speaker in the world, but I hardly think he is stupid. No one becomes the President of the United States by being stupid. He's just a good 'ole Texas boy. He has a pleasantly normal way about him and he doesn't come off trying to ACT like a know it all jerkoff. He's just a regular person like you and I and doesn't seem like the typical politician.

[StrayRogue]

I'm not wanting to get into an argument or discussion here, but yeah he may seem the normal guy, but with one difference; he is rich, and his Daddy is or was one of the most powerful men on the planet. Do you think any "normal, everyman" could even become President these days?

[Tendarian]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
Wow... scary thing is I actually just this ONCE agree with Klaive. Bush is stupid. And what made it so funny was that the democrats just kept pointing out how stupid he was. It's something good to see, if any of you get a chance.

Well gee if a democrat said something bad about a republican it must be true! And by that standard vice versa as well so we should all vote for a third party candidate or something.

By the way agreeing with Klaive should give you a second thought about the subject at hand :) Whenever i agree with him,i have to relook at what im thinking.

[GS4Gurl]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
I'm not wanting to get into an argument or discussion here, but yeah he may seem the normal guy, but with one difference; he is rich, and his Daddy is or was one of the most powerful men on the planet. Do you think any "normal, everyman" could even become President these days?

True true... and probably not.

[Tendarian]

I think a normal everyman could become president. Maybe not just go right to president thought. Maybe run for small time local politics and then slowly move up. I bet it could be done and assume it does happen sometimes.

[StrayRogue]

Maybe, but Mr. Bush doesn't strike me as the most educated person. I'd like to think, and I do hope any man could become president if they worked their assess off for it. But money talks these days, I am afraid.

[Ilvane]

I'm curious Tendarian..What has Bush done for you since he's been in office, aside from going to war?

I'm just sincerely curious as to why someone would vote for him. I've been watching, and I certainly won't be voting for him next time.

-A

[Tendarian]

I would vote for him again because his views coincide with my own views as what is best for my country. I dont vote for someone for what they can *do* for me.

[GSLeloo]

The great thing about watching the Democrats is that they're like the enemy party and have the balls to point out all the stupid thing Bush has done. He wants $87 billion dollars to rebuild Iraq when there are fire stations being closed here, thousands of people losing their jobs every day, schools being closed down, teachers laid off. What is he trying to do? Put america into a depression while he makes Iraq a great country? Plus he screwed us all by ignoring the UN, not getting their support and now he has to try to beg for them. At least his father tried to get some Allies first.

[StrayRogue]

Why not vote for someone who *Does* do something for you though?

[Artha]

If I could vote, I'd vote for him in 2004. It's funny that democrats keep telling me how stupid he is, yet also how many conspiracies he's leading. He got bad luck by being given the shit economy, and worse luck when terrorists attacked 2 years ago.

The running democrats are all tools, and not one of them other than Lieberman is electable. And Lieberman won't make it out of the primaries, because the base is largely batshit crazy. I hope Kucinich wins...but Dean might be a good opponent too.

[GSLeloo]

I vote for John Edwards! Free college!!!

[StrayRogue]

Go third party candidate!

[GSLeloo]

Bushed USED 9/11... he used the fact that the entire nation was in pain and angry and he used that anger and focused it on Iraq. He wanted a war cause his daddy lost it the first time. Like father like son, both losers.

[GSLeloo]

I don't like the look of Lieberman... don't remember how the other guy was. I really like John edwards and Carol Braun. In fact, just take them all and wrap them up in a nice bow and I'll take them for president(s)!!!

I vote for Chris Rock.

[Artha]

Bushed USED 9/11...

You know...because democrats waited a whole day to blame him.


he used the fact that the entire nation was in pain and angry and he used that anger and focused it on Iraq.

Afghanistan, not Iraq.


He wanted a war cause his daddy lost it the first time. Like father like son, both losers.

That's retarded. You do know that almost the entire Iraqi army was whiped out the first time, right? You also know that the goal was to get them out of Kuwait, and we did, right? And I suppose, knowing that, you know that the Bushes are 2-0 with Saddam.

[Tendarian]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Why not vote for someone who *Does* do something for you though?

Because i believe in doing things for myself. I believe the role of gov't isnt to make me happy,thats my job.

[StrayRogue]

Well Tendarian, its his job to give you that job, to give you low taxes, to give you a good economy etc. Its your choice if you think he is adequate enough to do that, just like it is any American able to vote. However, me, personally, feel it is not a good choice to vote for a warmonger.

[Tendarian]

I totally agree with Artha.

[GSLeloo]

But have either Bush actually got Saddam yet?

[Tendarian]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Well Tendarian, its his job to give you that job, to give you low taxes, to give you a good economy etc. Its your choice if you think he is adequate enough to do that, just like it is any American able to vote. However, me, personally, feel it is not a good choice to vote for a warmonger.

I disagree,it is my job to find a job or get educated enough to find a job that suits me. And if you want to talk low taxes Dubya wins that too. He gave us a tax cut and pissed off all the democrats to do it. Ill let the warmonger comment slide just because you're a pacifist or it appears to be so.

[GSLeloo]

And ignore the war for a second... what about his domestic policy? Tax cuts for the rich but how many people on this board will actually benefit from that? His "No child left behind" plan has been left on the back burner and our economy is getting worse and worse. And now he wants $87 billion. I know wars are supposed to stimulate the economy, but maybe those are wars where we actually have some allies.

[Tendarian]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
But have either Bush actually got Saddam yet?

Whether he lives or dies does it really matter if we made it so he has no more power to cause more harm?

[Back]

After watching the Democratic debate and their rather accurate (and hysterical) description of Bush and his policy and how his presidency has gone... I was just wondering what other people thought about him and how he's been at running our country.

George Jr. was groomed for his position by a team of select republicans when Sr. was in office. The 2000 election was decided by Supreme Court justices Bush Sr. appointed during his term over a discrepency in the state Jeb Bush is Gorvernor of. George Sr. used to be Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, not to mention working in the oil industry, which explains why now everything is run by the CIA for the interests of oil. George Jr. is nothing more than what they call him in Mexico, Topo Gigo, a puppet. How else can a coke head who says the stupidest shit get into office? Jr. is a rich party boy they can use to control things.

[StrayRogue]

Personally, I think he is bad for the country. He strip mines in nature reserves for oil, is not well recieved over-seas, has ludicrous laws involving gun-ownership, among other things. But again, its your choice if you wish to follow the guy.

[Tendarian]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
And ignore the war for a second... what about his domestic policy? Tax cuts for the rich but how many people on this board will actually benefit from that?

I didnt write this but....


by Joe Watkins

President Bush’s proposal to create jobs and stimulate economic growth is the perfect remedy to create jobs and fix the ailing economy. Contrary to what the Democrat mythmakers continue to say the President’s tax cut benefits lower income families the most. Don’t believe it? Check out the facts.

A recent report by the Treasury Department noted that workers earning under $30,000 a year will see an average 17% cut in their taxes. In contrast, those making over $100,000 a year would see their taxes cut an average 11%. Lower income workers will see a larger percentage of their wages returned to them than higher wage earners.

There is more good news, who benefits the most from President Bush’s proposal to eliminate the dividend tax cut - seniors living on fixed incomes. Roughly half of the money put back into taxpayers’ pockets by the dividend tax cut will go to seniors who rely on dividend income as a steady source of retirement income. Again, contrary to the Democrat mythmakers’ claims, these are not rich Americans. Over 40% of the taxpayers that will benefit from eliminating the double tax on dividends earn less than $50,000 a year.

Under President Bush’s jobs and growth plan, families with income under $50,000 will pay a smaller share of the nation’s total income tax burden than they do today, while those making over $100,000 a year will see their share increase to over 73% of the total income tax burden. While higher wage earners will see their taxes cut they will continue to carry the greatest tax burden for our nation.

If you all had your way only the rich would be taxed at all or what?

[GSLeloo]

I think Bush expected to get the oil in Iraq and since they're burning the oil fields... isn't going too well.

[StrayRogue]

The foot-hold in Iraq is going to take a few years to fully establish, IF that is his game. I'll tell you next year, if the troops haven't left by then.

[Back]

GSLeloo, you are right on the mark with everything.

Its always the Republicans who scream first. That should be enough in and of itself.

Tendarian, you pulled a quote by an obviously biased source. How about this?


Taken from http://www.whitehouse.gov/president/gwbbio.html
George W. Bush is the 43rd President of the United States. He was sworn into office January 20, 2001, after a campaign in which he outlined sweeping proposals to reform America's public schools, transform our national defense, provide tax relief, modernize Social Security and Medicare, and encourage faith-based and community organizations to work with government to help Americans in need. President Bush served for six years as the 46th Governor of the State of Texas, where he earned a reputation as a compassionate conservative who shaped public policy based on the principles of limited government, personal responsibility, strong families, and local control.

I guess his decision to go to war without UN sanction is going to cost our kid's educations because he has not increased spending on this country's education system.

Everyone knows that America has asked for a delay on our destruction of chemical weapons, right? We signed a treaty where we and other countries were supposed to have destroyed a certain percentage of our chemical weapons by 2004, and now we are asking that be delayed.

And I couldn't believe this when I heard it, but appearantly the republicans have put out a commercial on the school voucher program where a black lady talks about how good it is, then you cut to scenes of Ted Kennedy opposing it, followed with scenes of the KKK burning crosses. Is this real? Someone please tell me its not? Anyone see it or have a link? Its just too crazy to believe.

[Tendarian]

Yeah cause a president who didnt accomplish every single one of his campaign promises is news. 9/11 happened he actually has an excuse unlike most presidents. A president cant just wave his magic wand and get things done,they need to get congress to agree and if they dont,they dont.

[StrayRogue]

Ignoring the UN and decreasing funds to schools and libraries are all reasons why I wouldn't vote for Bush.

[Ilvane]

The rich just need to be taxed equally to the rest of us, that would help.:grin:

-A

[GS4Gurl]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Ignoring the UN and decreasing funds to schools and libraries are all reasons why I wouldn't vote for Bush.

I think it is worth every penny if it deters even one terrorist in anyway. No one likes war, but sometimes it is necessary to weed out bad people. Coming from a military type family myself. I can easily understand this.

I get offended when people diss the cause our brave men are fighting for. :(

This war has given us leads to other terrorist activity. Some horrible catastrophe's have been stopped in the process. If we sat like pussies and did nothing no telling how many more people would be killed cus of terrorists.

[StrayRogue]

You have every right to think that. Just as I have every right to disagree with it.

[GSLeloo]

But in attacking Iraq, we created even more terrorists. Now we've started a Holy war (what do they call it...) in which all the Arabs are supposed to attack us for religion, right? But here's my question, Bush said there would be more terrorist attacks after 9/11 but where are they?

[StrayRogue]

Very true Leloo. Before the American invasion, the Al queda had no group or foothold in Iraq. They do now simply because the Iraqi's are welcoming anyone to get these people out of their country.

[Back]

I get offended when people diss the cause our brave men are fighting for.

This war has given us leads to other terrorist activity. Some horrible catastrophe's have been stopped in the process. If we sat like pussies and did nothing no telling how many more people would be killed cus of terrorists.

Believe it or not, I agree with your statement. And my best friend, amongst others, is in the military. (We've agreed not to talk about this stuff.) I was 100% behind taking out the Taliban. Remember them? They used to rule Afganistan. And I was proud when we broke it up in a few months after the Russians tried for years. Iraq is different and has not been linked to 9/11.

[GSLeloo]

I just hate that every speech Bush makes connects right to 9/11. That was two years ago, and now we're in a war totally unrelated, our economy is sinking, schools are closing, people are being fired every day, and our president is asking for more and more money to help his war in a place we don't belong rather than help his own people.

[Ravenstorm]

I used to be fairly apathetic about politics. George has changed all of that. I believe him to be one of the worst president's in US history. But since I can't say for certain just how bad Taft or Harrison was, I'll limit it to the last century.

Raven

[imported_Kranar]

I think the quality of U.S. politicians in general has declined since President Reagan. Listen to their speeches, they lack the imagery and intellect they once had, the passion and the promise, and now their policies are dull formulas. It's as if there exists some master template that all policies stem from.

This trend will break, it always does, and a president will step in who innovates the way the people look at government. George Bush, however, is not that president.

[StrayRogue]

Good to see you back here Kranar.

[HarmNone]

George Dubya Bush is, to put it bluntly, a flaming idiot.

HarmNone

[Rowi]

hmm, interesting conversation between most and nice opinions from others. hmm, opinions?? odd must be nice to live somewhere where you can make them.

Ask me all govt is screwed it is so far in the crapper noone can pull it out. They all lie and cheat and raise tax all of them. Bush isnt to bad either was clinton when he was paying attention to things. Bush has made bad moves but who hasnt.

BUSH vs the world bahh just the left side of things. if it was a democrat in the house it would be the right saying the same. 9/11 hurt the nation, from jobs to schools to the budget, blame who you want, blame them all but most most important blame who did it from the start US and our views on how important a fucking tree is or a perserve in alaska but to hell with the kid in Arkansas who is starving to death but save nature save the world buncha arses couldnt save yourselves so arrogant so un-americian so today.

Bitch about jobs not being there then bitch when someone opens a pipeline up that serves 500 jobs and have green peace close it down hipocrits all of them.

If you were a 5 year old kid and lived in Iraq and a plane flew over when you was in the outhouse taking a piss and blew up your mother, dad, sister and 4 brothers grandpa and your favorite sheep and when you looked up and saw a americian flag on that plane. would you go up loving the USA! hell no you wouldnt youd plot revenge, another place where we have buried ourselves the middle east.

only solution kill em all then we'd be safe but that isnt going to happen either and i dont agree with it but would solve it all.

stop bitching and whinnin it isnt the presidents job to find you a job or what degree you have you must like the welfare system to think that way another crapper hole.

its all messed up and its all goin to hell in a handbasket so hold on folks and enjoy the ride while you can.

And always keep that blind eye closed that way the next time it happens you wont see it coming.

[Edited on 9-12-2003 by Rowi]:?:

[Edited on 9-12-2003 by Rowi]

[StrayRogue]

I would try and read and take that last post seriously. But It hurts my late night eyes. Learn to use paragraph. Oh and stop being ignorant.

[HarmNone]

Gotta agree, Rowi. Paragraphs, please! It is really difficult to read a wall of text, and most would like to hear what you might have to say.

HarmNone waves to Kranar

[imported_Kranar]

I think it is the role of a president to give the people initiative. Maybe not hand them a job, but to inspire them to get one and ensure that one exists.

The most influential leaders of the world have all been so not because they had some genious theory that looked good on paper, but because they could inspire their nation into taking the next grand step.

[Rowi]

Well i never said i was smart! thank god im not president youd really be pissed.

[HarmNone]

Heh. Nah, Rowi. We have George Dubya. You might be an improvement!

I understand most of what you were saying. I may not always agree, but I hear your concerns.

Balance is difficult to find in any situation, government included. There will always be dissenting voices to be heard. Although we may see things differently, most of us are concerned about that hungry kid in Arkansas, too.
:)

HarmNone is admittedly a liberal

[Rowi]

Well where i work 56 people have been laid off due to lack of work because of a tax that was put into affect by the lovely Gray Davis himself the great democratic leader of California the labor lover, bahh.

Sorry, about the no paragraphs first time i have typed alot here.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Kranar
I think it is the role of a president to give the people initiative. Maybe not hand them a job, but to inspire them to get one and ensure that one exists.

The most influential leaders of the world have all been so not because they had some genious theory that looked good on paper, but because they could inspire their nation into taking the next grand step.

Agreed, Kranar. What any people needs is inspiration, and a leader with the gift of foresight. I only wish I could see any of that in the leader with whom we are presently encumbered.

HarmNone

[HarmNone]

Ouch, Rowi. That has to hurt those families. How did the tax result in these layoffs?

HarmNone

[StrayRogue]

A cross-post from the ".". Just some facts on what Bush has done for you guys since he was employed:

I hope your kids enjoy the crappier schools they're getting, plus the crappier libraries. Multi-million cuts here.

Or if you don't have kids, pray you don't anytime soon. He cut $35 mil from advanced pediatric training facilities.

He also cut funding for research into renewable energy sources by half.

Delayed rules that would reduce acceptable levels of arsenic in drinking water.

Cut funding into cleaner, more efficient cars and trucks by 28%

Allowed secretary of the Interior Gale Norton to request suggestions for opening up National Monuments for foresting, coal mining, and oil and gas drilling.

Broken his promise to invest $100 mil per year into rain forest conservation.

Reduced by 86% the communtiy access program, which coordinated care for people without health insurance among public hospitals, clinics and such.

Cut funding for the Girls and Boys Clubs of America programs in public housing by $60 million.

Pulled out of the 1997 Kyoto Protocol agreement on global warming, ultimately signed by 178 other countries.

Rejected an international accord to enforce the 1972 treaty banning germ warfare.

Cut $200 mil from Childcare and Development grant; a program that provides child care to low-income families as they are forced from welfare to work.

Cut $700 million in funds for public housing repairs.

Cut half a billion dollars from the Environmental Protection Agency budget.

Overturned workplace ergonomic rules designed to protect worker's health and safety.

Need I go on?

[Rowi]

The tax is a bunker fuel tax, which affected the sale of bunker fuel in California by 50% so far this year compared to last year at same time. 8.75% on each ton of fuel sold is alot when a ship buys 5000 tons at 212 dollars a ton.

[Rowi]

1) I hope your kids enjoy the crappier schools they're getting, plus the crappier libraries. Multi-million cuts here.

I have three kids in school it all seems fine and public libraries look ok to me where i stand.

2) He also cut funding for research into renewable energy sources by half.

Do you understand why we dont use those new energy sources?. It cost to much to make it still, when more ways are around to make it then it would be good money to throw into more research. i mean how much cheaper is a hole in the ground seeping oil?.

3) Delayed rules that would reduce acceptable levels of arsenic in drinking water.

Reason, I feel better that the state by state laws are all higher then the federal laws thats why the delay because it would cost each state millions to change to lesser laws.

4) Cut funding into cleaner, more efficient cars and trucks by 28%

I dont have an answer for that seems wrong to do that though. But like I said before we all have our flaws.

5) Allowed secretary of the Interior Gale Norton to request suggestions for opening up National Monuments for foresting, coal mining, and oil and gas drilling.

For creating new jobs once again, wow who wants good paying jobs in Idaho or west virgina.

6) Broken his promise to invest $100 mil per year into rain forest conservation.

—August 2, 2001—The United States Government, with a significant assist from The Nature Conservancy, today will sign a landmark debt-for-nature swap to reduce approximately one-half of the debt obligation of the Government of Belize to the United States in exchange for the protection of 23,000 acres of vulnerable forest land in Belize's Maya Mountain Marine Corridor, an area 1½ times larger than the island of Manhattan. This area includes 16 miles of pristine Caribbean coastline.

6) Reduced by 86% the communtiy access program, which coordinated care for people without health insurance among public hospitals, clinics and such.

I thought this was a from Canada i might be wrong though.

7) Cut funding for the Girls and Boys Clubs of America programs in public housing by $60 million.

I have no answer

8) Cut $200 mil from Childcare and Development grant; a program that provides child care to low-income families as they are forced from welfare to work.


If true i dont agree with it at all.

9) Cut half a billion dollars from the Environmental Protection Agency budget.

Thank god someone did, they fine people out the butt ask me they shouldnt need funding at all.

10) You forgot he invorced the Taft hartley act on the longshoreman in California.

[StrayRogue]

It depends what part of the country your kids are in school.

The libraries are being shut down across the board.

Alt. Energy costs so much because it needs more research. He has increased the amount of time and money it will take to get it to a cheap standard.

He is destroying monuments. Please don't complain when your local park is torn to pieces.

The EPA is required and fine people for good reasons, ie, destroying the world you live on, and making it shittier for your kids.

[Rowi]

Oil Companies provide more back to nature then any other GOVT or person or company in the world they build Islands for birds and make reefs.

Name one park torn apart for drilling? just one thats a national monument. I mean i dont see a drill bit sticking outta washingtons nose.

EPA is good for making fines that are unreal they dont need funding all im saying. The rest they are good for and needed.

Research doesnt make it cheaper, demand does. None want to make it.

[StrayRogue]

Believe me, when Fossil Fuels run out (50 years?) there will be demand for it. Please see my other post.

[Betheny]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
It depends what part of the country your kids are in school.

The libraries are being shut down across the board.

Alt. Energy costs so much because it needs more research. He has increased the amount of time and money it will take to get it to a cheap standard.

He is destroying monuments. Please don't complain when your local park is torn to pieces.

The EPA is required and fine people for good reasons, ie, destroying the world you live on, and making it shittier for your kids.

I would rather be able to live my life as I want, and be able to live without fear of some asshole with a grudge plowing a train into my house... than hang out at a park, thx.

[StrayRogue]

Ever heard of photosynthesis?

[Rowi]

LOL.............................ok i think the park isnt goin to effect it.

[StrayRogue]

I warned you *gives Rowi breathing aparatus*

[Betheny]

Photosynthesis makes oxygen.

I don't need no stinking oxygen! I need guns! GIVE ME GUNS! GUNS WILL SAVE US!

w00t, sometimes playing the idiot makes me feel smrt.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Rowi
The tax is a bunker fuel tax, which affected the sale of bunker fuel in California by 50% so far this year compared to last year at same time. 8.75% on each ton of fuel sold is alot when a ship buys 5000 tons at 212 dollars a ton.

Interesting. I am not up on California politics. Why was this bunker fuel tax initiated, and how is it affecting the company of which you speak?

Also, how is it affecting the salaries of those in the top positions in said company?

HarmNone is interested

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Believe me, when Fossil Fuels run out (50 years?) there will be demand for it. Please see my other post.

Heh. Just a little snippit of info here:

Saudi Arabia has been pumping seawater into their oilfields for over 30 years now in an effort to bring the rapidly disappearing oil to the surface.

This tidbit brought to you by

HarmNone

[Neildo]

Very true Leloo. Before the American invasion, the Al queda had no group or foothold in Iraq. They do now simply because the Iraqi's are welcoming anyone to get these people out of their country.

And thank goodness Iraq is a terrorist magnet right now! You make it sound as if it's a bad thing.

I don't know about you, but what would you rather have? Al Quaida and other terrorist groups scattered all over causing their trouble on various civilian targets in numerous countries, or have them all concentrated in one area where we have military force that can actually do something about it? It's much easier to take care of that type of warfare over there than it would be to have them here on our, or your, homeland.

The things people don't think about..


I think the quality of U.S. politicians in general has declined since President Reagan. Listen to their speeches, they lack the imagery and intellect they once had, the passion and the promise, and now their policies are dull formulas.

Thank goodness for actors. They really DO make the best public speakers and icons. Presidents are just pawns with some power. The real power are the people in their cabinet that run the show. So long as that head hauncho has charisma, it doesn't matter what kind of screw ups may happen during office, it'll all seem okay because it's the vision of them that will stick in people's heads the most. Too bad it's the president that takes the most flak and not the others working for him.

Hehe, if Davis gets recalled, say hello to Swartznegger! I just can't wait until actors become so common that another becomes president. I hope Britney Spears becomes the first female president and she has a Clinton/Lewinsky-type run-in with someone. Then it'll be so far into the future there will be amazing age restoration procedures where she'll retain her current look and figure. There will also be such crazy laws that when she does have that Clinton/Lewinksky scandal, the law will require photographs to be released to the public as proof. Mmm, yeah.

Or hey, better yet, since we want image, I'm sure the entertainment industry will now be in charge to select a president. We can turn it all into an Americal Idol or Miss America contest. All sorts of fine hunies and beefy studs running for president. Where's the bikini contest?

Okay, it's late. I'll let the mind stop wandering. :P

- N

[Rowi]

The tax which i must say isnt in any other port in the world, So ships can get fuel elsewhere they dont have to buy it in LA or San Francisco they will buy it in Singapore or elsewhere.

The tax was put into effect in 1992 and it destroyed jobs, people that worked for the barge transportation services and since 40% of the ships that entered the port only came for fuel and supplies they stopped coming which affected the supplies companies the people that deliever it the fueling companies the people that go out and take waste everyone was affected.

The Govt. saw the decrease in buisness and overturned the tax with a sunset ruling in 1993 and it took 8 years to get back to the way it was before the tax.

The assembly in california and the senate passed a bill that would repeal the tax forever by 100% vote to yes.
when the bill reached the governors desk he vetoed it.

http://www.marinedigest.com/aprOT1.html a link to some stories on it. or web browse for "California Bunker Tax"

Since the company I work for is a transportation service contracted by a oil company we are getting hit since ships are fueling elsewhere. We are down from 78 employees to 22 in last 6 months business is down over 50%.

the company has cut fat not only at the union membership level but also in high paying positions of management. Out of 12 office positions 4 remain in the LA area. The company has other operations outside California as well Oregon and Washington.

[StrayRogue]

I'd much rather there be cause for no terrorist actions, where-as Iraq is merely fueling the fire, and the Al queda's cause. But if you want their numbers to grow, please, feel free to stay in the Middle East.

[HarmNone]

I can certainly see the reason for your concern, Rowi. I will read what I can find on the subject, as it is an interesting one. The fact that only one port is charging this tax seems...well, a little stupid from my point of view. The ships can certainly go elsewhere.

I will be interested to see the rationale behind the governor's decision.

*Edited to turn interesting to interested.*

HarmNone

[Edited on 9-12-2003 by HarmNone]

[Neildo]

Oh hey, don't get me wrong, I'd love for terrorism to cease completely too. However, where there's differences, mainly the civilized world vs more primitive, there will be terrorism used by those people. So since it's not going to go away anytime soon, I'd rather it stay on their home turf than ours.

And while Iraq may be fueling the fire, don't forget that while those people may have not been in the fire, they were already fuel.. and a bad fuel at that. The terrorists joining in this Jihad aren't normal Islamics (or I sure as hell hope not, heh), they are the zealot ones or else they wouldn't have joined in the first place. They've had their views and mentality about all this before we went to war with Iraq. The war was just the straw that broke the camel's back. At least with them joining in the Jihad, it allows us to know who they are so they can die rather than them being some unknown with their anti-civilized world views. It's the quiet ones you have to watch out for. At least now they're putting their cards on the table so we can flush them out. Hell, I hope every single extremist joins in the fray so we can get rid of em once and for all.

- N

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Neildo
I hope every single extremist joins in the fray so we can get rid of em once and for all.

- N

That is wishful thinking my friend ;)

[HarmNone]

The terrorists joining in this Jihad aren't normal Islamics (or I sure as hell hope not, heh), they are the zealot ones or else they wouldn't have joined in the first place. They've had their views and mentality about all this before we went to war with Iraq. - N

You can bet your bippy on that one, Nieldo. :D

HarmNone

[longshot]

StrayRogue, you sound like a lot of the Brits I encounter over here. I will say that you do a much better job than they do in presenting your arguments.

There is nothing worse than listening to some pasty white Brit chic slam your country if she's getting everything all mixed up.

I don't agree with everything you say, but thank you for actually using facts. It's actually refreshing.

Anti-Americanism is pretty strong here with Canadians, Brits, and Aussies. It's also pretty strong with the pussy ass Americans that qualify as freaks who will not be going home.

Bush is not an intelligent person. But when he admits he doesn't know the capital of Canada, it gives average Joe American great pride that we really don't have to give a shit. Joe Nascar readily identifies with this, because as a proud American, he feels he shouldn't have to care. In his mind, being at the top entitles us to look down.

This disturbs me greatly. However...

At the same time, I respect his ability to not bow down to international pressure on certain issues.

The one that is frequently mentioned is the Kyoto Protocal.

The Kyoto Protocal is fatally flawed. No U.S. president would cripple the country by signing such a deal. How could you limit the energy demands of the U.S. while leaving developing countries like China and India, where 2 Billion people live, unchecked?

Fact: If China used the same energy per-capita as the U.S., they would use more power than all countries in the world combined. And you're going to let them off the hook with the Kyoto Protocal? I don't think that's very wise.

Al Gore, self described Mr. Environment, did not plan to attend the meeting in Kyoto. He was pressured into going, and did not attend the conference until the very final day. He knew it was a failure too. There was a documentary on this... it was either HBO or PBS, but it's been awhile.

It is a good thing the US turned rejected the Kyoto Protocal. It sucks that such a nice city has now become synonymous with a fatally flawed agreement.

[Tsa`ah]

To many posts to comment on and any comment I would make on Iraq would just be the skipping record that is me.

So, on to the posts that made my eyes cross.


Originally posted by GS4Gurl
I think it is worth every penny if it deters even one terrorist in anyway. No one likes war, but sometimes it is necessary to weed out bad people. Coming from a military type family myself. I can easily understand this.

I'm an Army brat myself. I lived in just about every state in this union before the age of 12. I'm also a child of a Viet Nam vet.

I do not for one instance believe the war effort is worth a fraction of a penny from our educational resources. Such a statement lacks any foresight. Do you not realize the ramification to be had 10 years from now?

Education is the most vital of our resources. When we willingly allow legislation to cut into those funds, you willingly sacrifice the future of children. You willingly give up your quality of life in the future. I honestly don't believe people fully understand these things.


I get offended when people diss the cause our brave men are fighting for. :(

Were we hunting down Al Queda, I would agree. However, this is not the case.

I have relatives in Iraq, siblings, and I'll will tell you that my thoughts aren't much different than theirs.

We are lacking any "cause" in our war with Iraq. No real cause that the public will stand behind. We're not defending our country. We're not fighting terrorist. We're not, no have we, fighting a threat to our nation. There are no WMDs, nor were there. We certainly are not fighting for the liberation of the people of Iraq.

What exactly are we doing over there again?


This war has given us leads to other terrorist activity. Some horrible catastrophe's have been stopped in the process.

Name them please.


If we sat like pussies and did nothing no telling how many more people would be killed cus of terrorists.

No terrorist activity has been linked to Iraq.


Originally posted by Rowi
I have three kids in school it all seems fine and public libraries look ok to me where i stand.

For now. Give it another year or so.


2) He also cut funding for research into renewable energy sources by half.

Do you understand why we dont use those new energy sources?. It cost to much to make it still, when more ways are around to make it then it would be good money to throw into more research. i mean how much cheaper is a hole in the ground seeping oil?.

Bzzzzzttt!!!

Wrong answer.

Diesel prices are averaging 1.50 per gallon in the U.S. 43% of this is the cost of the crude, 9% is the cost of refining, 11... what? 11 percent is the cost of marketing and distribution, and finally a whopping 34% is in taxes. Holy crap... that's like 51 cents! Here's where it gets interesting, and points out the flaw in your reasoning.

I can go to any, and I do mean any, fast food restaurant and get all of the used vegi oil I want. Hell, most if not all of these places have to pay to have this stuff disposed of anyway. I can purchase one gallon of ethanol (that's grain alcohol) or Isopropyl (rubbing alcohol) for about 1 U.S. dollar. I can heat the solid waste oil to liquid and filter it at the cost of 20 cents per 10 gallons, and that's using good filtration methods. For every 10 gallons of waste oil I add one gallon of alcohol. The cost per gallon (barring misc. expenses) is 12 cents a gallon. We now have bio-diesel that burns cleaner than traditional diesel and is just as efficient. We can make it more efficient by using turbo/super chargers or any other sort of forced induction system and adding water injection. By using forced induction and water injection, we can increase the mileage, therefore efficiency by no less than 8%. Why isn't bio-diesel used world wide today? Because farmers don't have the financial resources that the oil companies do.

It may be cheaper to find that hole in the ground that oozes crude. It is not cheaper for the consumer by the time that crude is refined and hits the pumps.

By cutting research funds into fuel alternatives, Bush has probably single handedly ushered in the next generation of warmongers. These guys will have the backing of the public to go burn down a country for their crude.


3) Delayed rules that would reduce acceptable levels of arsenic in drinking water.

Reason, I feel better that the state by state laws are all higher then the federal laws thats why the delay because it would cost each state millions to change to lesser laws.

Very nice... very nice. You do realize that you are justifying saving each state money over the well being of millions of infants? Arsenic and Cadmium are the leading suspects in most birth defect related studies. Because Uncle Sam wasn't concerned with water purity until the early 80s, hundreds of thousands of children were born with defects. I was born with a defective liver thanks to contaminated water supplied by (then) Ft Lagune, and I was lucky. Saving money is fine, but not at the expense of children. 1 in 33 babies will be born with a major birth defect. 70% of those can only be partially explained by drinking water.


5) Allowed secretary of the Interior Gale Norton to request suggestions for opening up National Monuments for foresting, coal mining, and oil and gas drilling.

For creating new jobs once again, wow who wants good paying jobs in Idaho or west virgina.

Exactly how many new jobs will be created? 10-12 after construction maybe? The work, if any, will be performed by existing contractors, i.e.; those who are already employed. Last I checked, finished monuments don't require heavy staffing. Should these monuments be built on national parks, no new jobs will be created. Their care will fall under the responsibility of existing staff.


6) Broken his promise to invest $100 mil per year into rain forest conservation.

—August 2, 2001—The United States Government, with a significant assist from The Nature Conservancy

Please note the date line. Anything more recent?


9) Cut half a billion dollars from the Environmental Protection Agency budget.

Thank god someone did, they fine people out the butt ask me they shouldnt need funding at all.

Well we agree on something. The EPA is a joke. I don't think cutting their funding was the way to go however.

I agree the sentiment, Bush is an idiot of the highest order. He doesn't rank up there with a puppet, those actually have some history. Bush, my friends, is a Muppet. Daddy bush and the cabinet are the real power of the executive office.

No, I won't be voting for Bush, and no, I won't be voting democrat. I haven't voted either in the last 12 years and I see no reason to start now. Bi-partisan politics have been destroying this country since its founding. That's the irony. This country has grown so much, has contributed so much, and has succeeded so much, despite the governing political parties in constant opposition of themselves.

I have nerve damage now. :P

[Edited on 9-12-2003 by Tsa`ah]

[Tendarian]

Tsa'ah you should at least throw your vote away by voting a third party you can agree with :)

[StrayRogue]

Nice to see you agree with me Tsa'ah. Thanks for the support, the cause is not lost it seems ;)

[Tsa`ah]

I've voted Libertarian for the last two presidential elections. I voted Clinton the first time, and regretted it soon after I realized I bought into the media hype and Gen X campaigning. In hindsight, I would have voted Perot.

I'll continue to vote for whatever candidate seems to be truly for the people and not for the money. So far, that's only been a quack and the Libertarians.

[Ilvane]

If you don't vote you might as well put Bush back in office..:grin:

;)

-A

[Tendarian]

I change my mind then,my advice is not to vote.

[StrayRogue]

Yay Tendarian!

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Tendarian
I change my mind then,my advice is not to vote.

Why exactly is that?

[Tendarian]

Originally posted by Ilvane
If you don't vote you might as well put Bush back in office..:grin:

;)

-A

Cause Ilvane said if people dont vote Bush will get put back in office.

[imported_Kranar]

Kinda sucks that the only two parties to vote for in the U.S. are republican and democrat or else your vote is pretty much wasted.

[Tsa`ah]

It's only a waste if you feel it's a waste.

I personally feel that people using that attitude are not voting with their heads, they're voting the way they are told to.

If more people would actually investigate the choices, they would realize that there are better parties that better suit the way the want to vote.

Unfortunately, people tend to think and do what the media tells them to do. I would much rather politics and media be handled in the same manner Israel does.

[imported_Kranar]

There is nothing in the Constitution that states that null votes go to the president currently in office.

If you don't vote, then your vote doesn't count one bit. It's not like if you vote for the Green Party, you're somehow helping Bush not get re-elected.

The way the U.S. elections work, it's either you vote for a party that has some chance of winning, or your vote won't really count.

[imported_Kranar]

It's a waste because the only votes that matter in the end are the ones that went to the guy who wins.

It's not like if Gore gets 40 percent of the vote, and Bush gets 59 percent, and the libertarians get 1 percent, that they all represent that amount of power in the federal government. It's just Bush, with the 59 percent, gets the White House and the other candidates go home empty handed.

[imported_Kranar]

<< I would much rather politics and media be handled in the same manner Israel does. >>

I don't know how the media is handled there, but I think Israel's government system is the same as Canada's and Britain's. You don't vote for a person, you vote for an idea, and the federal government is essentially a collection of ideas.

I know in Britain and Canada, if legislation ever fails to pass in the House, then the leading party must call for a new election since it represents a lack of leadership on the part of that party. Like if Tony Blair failed to pass the vote to go to war in Iraq, then there would have been an election in Britain.

[StrayRogue]

Now, not to be big headed, but here our system works. Each sector constituent's can vote for a representative who can sit in the house of commons. Of course, the numbers are pretty much usually mass majority Labour, Conservative, there are still seats taken up by the Liberals. Losing out on votes for the Number 1 job doesn't exclude that party from being involved to a great extent.

Either way, I am with Tsa'ah; if everyone thinks the third party candidate can't win, no one will vote. So why not think everyone is going to vote for him. If everyone who said "I'd vote for him, but I think is a waste", actually did vote for them, they might be surpised.

[Tsa`ah]

That would be correct. You vote for a party, the party chooses a head.

In relation to the media. They are not allowed to campaign in any fashion. You can interview a candidate about any issue outside of politics. The moment the conversation turns to politics, it's pulled.

I don't believe they put up gala polls, nor do they give any candidate more airtime than the rest.

Pretty much, the media is not allowed into politics during times of election.

It is the responsibility of the people to vote, not the media's

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Either way, I am with Tsa'ah; if everyone thinks the third party candidate can't win, no one will vote. So why not think everyone is going to vote for him. If everyone who said "I'd vote for him, but I think is a waste", actually did vote for them, they might be surpised.

That is part of the reason Perot did not win in 92. The other part being he could not decide if he was in or out.

[imported_Kranar]

Wow, I'd have to do some serious reflecting on that. On the surface I can see some upsides and downsides to such a system.

[imported_Kranar]

<< If everyone who said "I'd vote for him, but I think is a waste", actually did vote for them, they might be surpised. >>

I think that's actually dangerous, because in the U.S. there is only one President who is elected and the rest of the guys go home empty handed. Now if everyone voted for parties who didn't stand a chance of winning, then the party that does win would only do so with possibly 25-30 percent of the vote.

So that one guy, with 25-30 percent of the vote takes it all, and the rest of the guys even though they constitute 75-70 percent of the vote, go home empty handed. A president should NEVER be elected based on such a small percentage of people, infact I think 50 percent is pretty low to get elected on.

For that reason, I state go with a party that actually has a chance of winning, and in a country like the U.S. there can only be two choices. If there were 5-6 choices that actually had a chance of winning, well the problem I just described gets magnified like crazy.

[Edited on 9-12-2003 by Kranar]

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
That would be correct. You vote for a party, the party chooses a head.

In relation to the media. They are not allowed to campaign in any fashion. You can interview a candidate about any issue outside of politics. The moment the conversation turns to politics, it's pulled.

I don't believe they put up gala polls, nor do they give any candidate more airtime than the rest.

Pretty much, the media is not allowed into politics during times of election.

It is the responsibility of the people to vote, not the media's

Yep, you get the odd "This is a party political broadcast concerning the Conservatives..." shite come election time, but nothing to the extent of American showmanship. It says Millions as well. Wasn't Bush's campaign billed at over $30 or something?

[Tsa`ah]

I'm not privy to the dollar amounts that went into campaigning.

It is almost a fact that the leading dollar getter for each party (barring encumbancy) gets the nomination. Normally that equates to who ever puts up the most cash can be president.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
I'm not privy to the dollar amounts that went into campaigning.

It is almost a fact that the leading dollar getter for each party (barring encumbancy) gets the nomination. Normally that equates to who ever puts up the most cash can be president.

Well, its funny, but the people who put up the money, in sponsorships etc, are usually the ones who benefit AFTER the election in someway. Bush elected some of his family and contributors to positions of incredible power, even though they weren't the right "man for the job". Money talks...

[Tendarian]

And so did Clinton and So did George H and Reagan and Carter and .....

[imported_Kranar]

<< And so did Clinton and So did George H and Reagan and Carter and ..... >>

And that doesn't worry you?

[Tendarian]

I assume every human who gets power will try to share it with people they consider allies.

[GSLeloo]

Actually I heard somewhere that Bush I think it was got us into the worst defecit in American history.

[draconis nematoda]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
I'm not wanting to get into an argument or discussion here, but yeah he may seem the normal guy, but with one difference; he is rich, and his Daddy is or was one of the most powerful men on the planet. Do you think any "normal, everyman" could even become President these days?

And herein lies the rub. A truly unfortunate but true fact.

[GSLeloo]

Being in the Middle east isn't good for anyone. For those in the Iraq that accepted our help? Well all the groups against us that are moving in would want to kill them first, right? Make an example of them? I just think that our presence there is only going to make things worse for everyone. Want to start WWIII? He had almost been heading their the first time. I stand behind my belief that war is never needed and neither is loss of life.

[StrayRogue]

Right on sista!

[Tsa`ah]

And so did Clinton and So did George H and Reagan and Carter and .....

I'm sure each of our 43 (?) presidents have done the exact thing. Presidents set precedents, even bad ones.

In all honesty, I don't think the U.S. as a union will stand on it's own in the next 50 years. Not without some massive reform across the board. Bush, unfortunately has been very counter productive in every aspect of his presidency. Should we see another president for the next term, that person is likely to spend 4 years trying to undo the damage Bush Jr has done.

[GSLeloo]

If I was president, I could never say to my country "Guess what, now I'm gonna send your relatives, friends, lovers off to this country you know nothing about so they can be killed in a foreign land." It'd be one thing if Bush was willing to risk his own ass, stand there in the fields with our soldiers at the risk that he too would die. But no, he makes the decision and he's the last one that will ever be hurt. I can just hope it kills his career.
And no, I don't believe I am going against my country. In fact, I am using the rights I have in this country. The rights to see that my president is being an idiot and the right to speak out against it. But what is Bush doing? Trying to get the Patriot act back up so that they can monitor us. Screw them! I'll go buy "Steal this book" and let them arrest me with no charges.