How would you like disarm handled?

[drauz]

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Discussions%20with%20Simutronics/The%20Bad,%20and%20the%20Ugly%20(general%20complai nts)/view/15385


Several people in this thread have identified the key point: the intent of DISARM is combat disadvantage, not permanent item loss. The same thing applies to several related abilities like Vibration Chant, waern bites, and the like. The permanent item loss potential of those abilities is/was only incidental to their main purpose. Item loss was a lot more common with droppage on death, gear leave-behind on decay, and breakage. Whether or not permanent item loss is a good idea in today's game is now beside the point -- since it isn't implemented anywhere else anymore, then it should be removed from these abilities as well.

Therefore, the design goal is simple: retain the combat effect while removing the potential for permanent item loss. Its actual implementation needs to be a balancing act between "retain the exact same combat effect" and "avoid the nightmarish complexities that an exact duplicate would entail". And that portion is a backend matter for us to worry about, plus the actual recovery mechanism.

And finally, I'll note that Wyrom isn't just giving a canned response. I was the one who made the original proposal on how to rewrite disarm, and laid claim to the work. That was quite a while back now and the delay can be laid at my feet if you want to blame somebody



As I said, the chance for permanent item loss will be removed. Loss, in the sense that the equipment will leave your hands, is still going to be very much a part of the disarm ability (or it wouldn't be disarm anymore). You'll simply be able to get it back in a timely fashion by your own efforts, even if you die the second after it leaves your hands. As for the implementation mechanism, that's for us to handle. I never mind player speculation about that sort of thing, but a competent coding GM is always going to have much more knowledge of what needs to be handled.

Do you like this proposal or not? What, if anything, do you think needs to be changed?

[drauz]

I would like to work like you have your arm cut off, the weapon still appears in your hand but you gain no benefit from it.

[Ososis]

My biggest issue with snake disarm is it totally bones a berserked warrior who is mastered in disarm. Disarms should be warrior friendly if we want to maintain the same dynamics. Destroying the benefits of the disarm skill and/or weapon bonding 5 I would find disappointing.

[Gelston]

I think it should just be an RT thing where you lose benefit of the weapon, perhaps with flavor messaging that you scramble to recover your weapon or something when the RT wears off, although messaging while dead would be a tad different. I suppose if you die while disarmed you could fall on your weapon or something.

[Taernath]

I think it should just be an RT thing where you lose benefit of the weapon

Yep. Dunno why they want to make it more complicated.

[drauz]

Yep. Dunno why they want to make it more complicated.

RT and you are no longer holding the weapon as far as calculations are concerned during it.

[Gelston]

Well, they'd need to make rank 5 bonding have something special too. Perhaps halving(or more) the RT from disarm.

[drauz]

Well, they'd need to make rank 5 bonding have something special too. Perhaps halving(or more) the RT from disarm.

I'd be good with that.

Actually, I think thats probably too good. Maybe more like 25%.

[Gelston]

I'd be good with that.

Actually, I think thats probably too good. Maybe more like 25%.

Perhaps a max RT of 5 seconds for rank 5 bonds, that is when the weapon currently returns with the system right now. Disarm currently maxes out at 20 seconds of RT added.

[Astray]

Disarm should shatter your weapon and put you in hard RT. But during the RT you quickly reforge the blade but that also gives you RT. But fuck it, tedium typically wins out.

[nocturnix]

I think taking out the risk for item loss erodes at the risk<>reward equation. Gutting a game's risk can neuter it if you are not careful. As much as losing an item sucks, the adrenaline and dopamine you get from countering a disarm or getting your item back in time is real currently. That said, using an ebladed runestaff in areas where critters disarm kind of sucks hard. And now with all the cool runestaves risking losing a 20-70mil runestaff or a 100mil+ weapon by hunting in a certain area is not nice either.

This is a tough one. I'm not sure what the solution is, but simply removing the risk component from disarm entirely worries me. It could be a slippery slope.

What about making some kind of anti-disarm training more avaiilable to other classes? And changing slightly how it works? For example, maybe all other classes can train in Disarm, and as training increases your likeliehood of auto-recovering your item after disarm or death increases. I know thats similar to how it works now, but tweaking the numbers to where maxing out disarm is not THAT expensive TP-wise, and once reached item-loss disarm is like 1-5% possibility. The risk of being completely disarmed without recovery is low, but still exists, just to give some feeling of risk still. Plus disarm doesnt really come into the equation in most hunting areas until quite a bit later in the level curve anyways, so picking up an extra skill to hunt certain areas wont be as painful.

[Orthin]

I think it would be less practical to mold the new disarm mechanic around 1 CMAN only two classes get and instead fix disarm and then refashion bonding once that has been done.

I do like the idea of just shadowing the weapon mechanically, losing the DS benefits like being forced into offensive and then losing EBP is associated with a weapon, but still having it in your hand. Some kind of a spell duration function where the weapon arm is unusable for 20 seconds.

[nocturnix]

maybe separate out disarm cman into offensive and defensive versions, and let any class train in the defensive version. And squares likely would not need the defensive version since they have bonding. so bonding wouldnt need to be changed either.

In the end when it comes to this stuff, from the developer side, its all about fixing it with the minimum amount of big changes required.

[Hedrik]

I don't know if more anti disarm training is necessary. By design, it may be superfluous if they simply removed the possibility of open rolls. I can see where the gms are coming from, but their approach is going to land them more gm asssists than if they simply made disarmed weapons not hit the ground at all. If they want to preserve excitement, more excitement would be found in players finally being able to dust off their best weapons for usage in day to day hunting and invasions.

[Viekn]

Maybe you retain the risk by having some sort of open roll apply to the disarm and if it's a bad enough disarm, the weapon becomes unusable for a week or more. You could add some type of functionality, either by wizards using 405 or some other mechanic, where you could get a sense of how much time is left on the item's recovery period.

[Gelston]

Look, all they gotta do is just model it off of sunder shield. If your shield isn't magical it can be shattered, if it isn't, you still lose all effects of the shield for a set duration.

[drauz]

I think taking out the risk for item loss erodes at the risk<>reward equation. Gutting a game's risk can neuter it if you are not careful. As much as losing an item sucks, the adrenaline and dopamine you get from countering a disarm or getting your item back in time is real currently. That said, using an ebladed runestaff in areas where critters disarm kind of sucks hard. And now with all the cool runestaves risking losing a 20-70mil runestaff or a 100mil+ weapon by hunting in a certain area is not nice either.

This is a tough one. I'm not sure what the solution is, but simply removing the risk component from disarm entirely worries me. It could be a slippery slope.

What about making some kind of anti-disarm training more avaiilable to other classes? And changing slightly how it works? For example, maybe all other classes can train in Disarm, and as training increases your likeliehood of auto-recovering your item after disarm or death increases. I know thats similar to how it works now, but tweaking the numbers to where maxing out disarm is not THAT expensive TP-wise, and once reached item-loss disarm is like 1-5% possibility. The risk of being completely disarmed without recovery is low, but still exists, just to give some feeling of risk still. Plus disarm doesnt really come into the equation in most hunting areas until quite a bit later in the level curve anyways, so picking up an extra skill to hunt certain areas wont be as painful.

There is still risk and danger... It just isn't a loss of an item.

Give a defensive version to the pure guilds!

[Ososis]

I think the snake disarm is (almost) perfect. It adds some super OH SHIT! I THINK disarm skill helps resist it, and you don't lose your weapon. Just get it to where zerk (and maybe bonding?) is helpful on that too.

Maybe some don't attack you? Like fog/mist/ether you have to GRASP for an attempt to recover your weapon, let bonding force it back to you from the ether (or even snake?) AND LET GOD DAMN BERSERK TRY TO GET YER WEAPON!

[Fallen]

Look, all they gotta do is just model it off of sunder shield. If your shield isn't magical it can be shattered, if it isn't, you still lose all effects of the shield for a set duration.

This makes the most sense, but it seems they're hung up on the appearance of being disarmed. Making the revision far more complex than it needs to be for the sake of immersion seems stupid.

[0zymandius]

If you lose your weapon to a disarm, you should be able to go to the clerk in whatever city you're in and hire a band of mercenaries to go out and retrieve it for you. Costs XX,XXX silvers or something, and takes half an hour of logged-in time (can't just log off for half an hour). I'd think they could automate that on the coding end pretty simply? You miss out on a couple of rounds of bounties (if you're hammering them out), you're inconvenienced, but you also get your Boomstick of Doom back safe and sound.

[nocturnix]

If you lose your weapon to a disarm, you should be able to go to the clerk in whatever city you're in and hire a band of mercenaries to go out and retrieve it for you. Costs XX,XXX silvers or something, and takes half an hour of logged-in time (can't just log off for half an hour). I'd think they could automate that on the coding end pretty simply? You miss out on a couple of rounds of bounties (if you're hammering them out), you're inconvenienced, but you also get your Boomstick of Doom back safe and sound.

Something like this is kind of a cool idea. Meaning there is a guaranteed way to get your item back, that doesnt require an assist. With this idea, you dont have to change any existing mechanics, just add a disarmed weapons "lost and found". If the weapon is disarmed and not retreived before janitor, it is tagged with the character who was holding it when it was disarmed, and only that character can start the retreival process. Could apply to other disarm related mechanics like getting your arm chopped off, etc. as well.

IMO there are plenty of ideas in this thread that are more "fun" and exciting than just gutting disarm and making the weapon stay in your hand so you can never lose it, and no possibility of it ever hitting the ground. IMO that is making disarm kind of pointless. The shreaking terror one feels when seeing their weapon hit the ground while in hard RT is one of the scariest things that can happen in this game. Taking that away...well that means you removed the scariest thing in the game. In essence neutering it a bit, and making it more "world of warcraft" mass appealy, which i think none of us ultimately want.

[0zymandius]

Something like this is kind of a cool idea. Meaning there is a guaranteed way to get your item back, that doesnt require an assist. With this idea, you dont have to change any existing mechanics, just add a disarmed weapons "lost and found". If the weapon is disarmed and not retreived before janitor, it is tagged with the character who was holding it when it was disarmed, and only that character can start the retreival process. Could apply to other disarm related mechanics like getting your arm chopped off, etc. as well.

IMO there are plenty of ideas in this thread that are more "fun" and exciting than just gutting disarm and making the weapon stay in your hand so you can never lose it, and no possibility of it ever hitting the ground. IMO that is making disarm kind of pointless. The shreaking terror one feels when seeing their weapon hit the ground while in hard RT is one of the scariest things that can happen in this game. Taking that away...well that means you removed the scariest thing in the game. In essence neutering it a bit, and making it more "world of warcraft" mass appealy, which i think none of us ultimately want.

If you wanted to keep that moment of terror, under the suggestion I put forth, put in a 5% chance that the mercs couldn't find it. You spend half an hour chewing your nails, cussing the RNG gods and hoping you get it back. Of course, the first time someone loses their Pitchspoon of Heck to that 5%, they're going to ragesmash everything in sight, but it'd certainly up the adrenaline factor.

[nocturnix]

If you wanted to keep that moment of terror, under the suggestion I put forth, put in a 5% chance that the mercs couldn't find it. You spend half an hour chewing your nails, cussing the RNG gods and hoping you get it back. Of course, the first time someone loses their Pitchspoon of Heck to that 5%, they're going to ragesmash everything in sight, but it'd certainly up the adrenaline factor.

Yah I agree. One thing you could do is allow infinite re-hires of the recovery mercs and just increase the %age chance they wont find it with each rehire, and also increase the cost. Meaning if you are unlucky it could cost you alot of silver to recover, but you will get it eventually.


By the way how does it currently work with disarm? If you lose an item to disarm, lets say a pitschpoon of heck worth 200mil and you assist. Will a GM give it back? Or is it truly lost forever? My guess is, if you ahve a really really expensive crazy item, a GM will circumvent the rules and give it back regardless and if that one doesnt you just re-assist...?

[Viekn]

If you lose your weapon to a disarm, you should be able to go to the clerk in whatever city you're in and hire a band of mercenaries to go out and retrieve it for you.

This might be a harder option to code, but for even more fun, you could have the option of having you're next bounty assignment be to have to retrieve your weapon from a den of thieves or mercenaries.

[nocturnix]

This might be a harder option to code, but for even more fun, you could have the option of having you're next bounty assignment be to have to retrieve your weapon from a den of thieves or mercenaries.

Thats a cool idea. It may not be THAT bad, considering there are already heirloom tasks which are very similar. But it might be easier to have it as a separate bounty task or question at the advguild. like Ask about weapon retreival, and if you have a weapon in the "lost and found" he would give you the task.

Anyhow, i like these ideas better than the others so far.

[Wrathbringer]

I like disarm with item loss. Once in minotaurs, which disarm, I found a 3 slot fusion weapon on a minotaur. That never would have happened without minotaurs disarming.

[nocturnix]

I like disarm with item loss. Once in minotaurs, which disarm, I found a 3 slot fusion weapon on a minotaur. That never would have happened without minotaurs disarming.

True, finding something a critter would normally never ever drop is fun indeed.

[SashaFierce]

On one hand they say they're getting rid of item loss, and another another hand they say they're adding "recovery mechanism" which means it's still going to be dropped or something equally annoying.

This is the way I would prefer them to handle it:

Disarm: Becomes Disable.
Loss of all parry DS, unable to attack for X number of seconds/rounds.

Or:

Disarm stays in its current form, but when the item is knocked to the ground, it's placed in a "at feet" slot that is technically a worn location on your character. You become "entangled" in the weapon, so you're unable to leave the room, but creatures or another character cannot pick up the weapon.


Waern Bites:
Your hand is damaged upon being bitten, if bitten twice you have a rank 2 hand wound and are unable to attack.


Itchy Curse:
Upon being struck by the curse, the items in your hands are automatically stowed, or stored. You are unable to "GET" anything until the curse wears off.


We don't need a "recovery mechanism" which will end up tedious and annoying.

[Tenlaar]

I think taking out the risk for item loss erodes at the risk<>reward equation. Gutting a game's risk can neuter it if you are not careful. As much as losing an item sucks, the adrenaline and dopamine you get from countering a disarm or getting your item back in time is real currently.

If you want an adrenaline rush, go outside and do something for it instead of playing a text game. The chance of losing a weapon that you have spent literal years, and potentially a lot of real money, painstakingly crafting to be just the way that you want it is stupid and counter-intuitive. I can not think of any other game I've played where the higher level you are and the more powerful weapon you get, the more likely you are to NOT WANT TO USE IT.

Over and over again you can find examples of people talking about the awesome weapons that sit in their lockers. How anybody can see that as a good mechanic in any way is beyond me.

[Taernath]

There should be a Gemstone law that states any time there is a thread about disarm, someone will argue in favor of it due to the excitement and danger of permanent item loss.

[Maerit]

The solution to bonding / 1625 is to make it the return feature work like actual returner weapons, which then allows warriors and paladins to gain access to hurling without the ridiculous (and unnecessary) current cost of entry. I mean seriously, why is hurling exclusively for those who can afford 30mil + bandoliers or "returner" weapons? Paladins and Warriors should be able to access this form of combat by using their bond with the weapon, and it would make the game better.

That way the value of your weapon returning after being disarmed is not eliminated. Instead, the weapon will automatically return to your hand when you HURL it. Of course, the advantage will only really work with weapons that can be HURLed, but that's still an improvement (IMO) to the current return mechanic that accompanies bonding. Currently, bonded weapons can still be lost when hurled, or picked up before returning from a disarm. Neither of those problems would exist if disarm was changed and the returning aspect was changed.

Of course the next argument becomes "that will devalue returner weapons and bandoliers" - not really. Every rogue, ranger, and bard who wants to hurl weapons will still need one of those to do it well.

[Fallen]

There should be a Gemstone law that states any time there is a thread about disarm, someone will argue in favor of it due to the excitement and danger of permanent item loss.

You can expand that law to basically any mechanics change. There will be a group that wants it to stay the same, or be more tedious/punitive. In addition to fun/excitement, justifications include "because it was always that way".

[time4fun]

The solution to bonding / 1625 is to make it the return feature work like actual returner weapons, which then allows warriors and paladins to gain access to hurling without the ridiculous (and unnecessary) current cost of entry. I mean seriously, why is hurling exclusively for those who can afford 30mil + bandoliers or "returner" weapons? Paladins and Warriors should be able to access this form of combat by using their bond with the weapon, and it would make the game better.

That way the value of your weapon returning after being disarmed is not eliminated. Instead, the weapon will automatically return to your hand when you HURL it. Of course, the advantage will only really work with weapons that can be HURLed, but that's still an improvement (IMO) to the current return mechanic that accompanies bonding. Currently, bonded weapons can still be lost when hurled, or picked up before returning from a disarm. Neither of those problems would exist if disarm was changed and the returning aspect was changed.

Sort of.

I'm not sure that Paladins are the right profession to push hurling to.

I think the real solution is to bring back the sliver boxes and then to release smelting and mining. That way it's not tied to 2 specific professions (one of which, arguably, isn't the best thematic fit for it)

[time4fun]

The solution to bonding / 1625 is to make it the return feature work like actual returner weapons, which then allows warriors and paladins to gain access to hurling without the ridiculous (and unnecessary) current cost of entry. I mean seriously, why is hurling exclusively for those who can afford 30mil + bandoliers or "returner" weapons? Paladins and Warriors should be able to access this form of combat by using their bond with the weapon, and it would make the game better.

That way the value of your weapon returning after being disarmed is not eliminated. Instead, the weapon will automatically return to your hand when you HURL it. Of course, the advantage will only really work with weapons that can be HURLed, but that's still an improvement (IMO) to the current return mechanic that accompanies bonding. Currently, bonded weapons can still be lost when hurled, or picked up before returning from a disarm. Neither of those problems would exist if disarm was changed and the returning aspect was changed.

Sort of.

I'm not sure that Paladins are the right profession to push hurling to.

I think the real solution is to bring back the sliver boxes and then to release smelting and mining. That way it's not tied to 2 specific professions (one of which, arguably, isn't the best thematic fit for it) Hurling should work like ranged- you're expected to make your own ammo unless you have a high end item that does it for you.

The implementation of hurling is bad right now in the same way ranged would be bad if there were no way to make your own arrows. The solution isn't releasing more high end bows, or to build class-specific features around it. The solution is to introduce a way to make ammo.

[Maerit]

Sort of.

I'm not sure that Paladins are the right profession to push hurling to.

I think the real solution is to bring back the sliver boxes and then to release smelting and mining. That way it's not tied to 2 specific professions (one of which, arguably, isn't the best thematic fit for it)

It doesn't matter if paladins are the "right" profession for hurling. There will still be value in the bond. Or, you could make a case that paladin bond should have a different feature that replaces the "return" aspect.

I would agree that there should be some mechanic to access "vanilla" hurling weapons more easily. They should be pretty tame though - as in no flares. I do want high-end items that exist to still hold value to some degree, and the flaring or permablessed bandoliers along with returners that have special properties should continue to be valuable. Warriors (and potentially paladins) having the ability to hurl a bonded weapon without the cost of buying a high-end item to support their combat style would be a good perk for the bonding ability.

Disarm should be a sunder shield mechanic (weapon hangs loosely at your side). Curse should act like trying to swing an unblessed weapon at the undead (You swing your XXXX, but it has no effect). Being bitten in the hand should injure your hand until you're too injured to swing (and sigil of determination can overcome this injury?).

[nocturnix]

If you want an adrenaline rush, go outside and do something for it instead of playing a text game. The chance of losing a weapon that you have spent literal years, and potentially a lot of real money, painstakingly crafting to be just the way that you want it is stupid and counter-intuitive. I can not think of any other game I've played where the higher level you are and the more powerful weapon you get, the more likely you are to NOT WANT TO USE IT.

Over and over again you can find examples of people talking about the awesome weapons that sit in their lockers. How anybody can see that as a good mechanic in any way is beyond me.

Someone sounds bitter...

I definately agree permanent loss should be removed somehow, but taking away the risk completely ala causing items to stay on your character or go into phantom mode seems like it would remove alot of the excitement and feeling of risk. And fight or flight reactions and brain stimulation is what makes us play the game in the first place. It's what makes MMOs addictive, if you didnt have any dopamine rush on finding a cool item or the negative side of risk vs. reward the game would quickly lose it's appeal.

[Taernath]

And fight or flight reactions and brain stimulation is what makes us play the game in the first place. It's what makes MMOs addictive, if you didnt have any dopamine rush on finding a cool item or the negative side of risk vs. reward the game would quickly lose it's appeal.

Is it? I play the game to roleplay, explore, and dress up my barbies. A couple of those are negatively impacted by permanent item loss. It's fine if you enjoy dopamine rushes when you lose something valuable, or play for other reasons, but not everyone shares that sentiment.

[Eodus]

Agree that permanent item loss from either disarm or implosion is ridiculous. As it sounds like Simu isn't going to make any changes to disarm, how about having the option to pay X% of the programmatically-assigned value of the item in order to get it back in the case of creature disarm or getting sucked into a black hole, janitor, what have you... and to be provided 15-30 days to collect and pay that sum in the form of a fine, or tax, of sorts? It introduces a silver drain into the ecosystem based around liberty and freedom of choice rather than "sorry, you're fucked. buy another weapon."

[Ososis]

There is always the rush of "I might die!" when you are weaponless. That is enough for me.

[Fallen]

Agree that permanent item loss from either disarm or implosion is ridiculous. As it sounds like Simu isn't going to make any changes to disarm, how about having the option to pay X% of the programmatically-assigned value of the item in order to get it back in the case of creature disarm or getting sucked into a black hole, janitor, what have you... and to be provided 15-30 days to collect and pay that sum in the form of a fine, or tax, of sorts? It introduces a silver drain into the ecosystem based around liberty and freedom of choice rather than "sorry, you're fucked. buy another weapon."

Implosion no longer will swallow up registered items, so at least there's that.

[OMGWTFBBQ]

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Discussions%20with%20Simutronics/The%20Bad,%20and%20the%20Ugly%20(general%20complai nts)/view/15385






Do you like this proposal or not? What, if anything, do you think needs to be changed?

Finros should STFU and fix monks.

[Neveragain]

Implosion no longer will swallow up registered items, so at least there's that.

I will never forget the day Deathlore imploded Sakalav's butcher knife.

[Gelston]

I will forever remember when people used to open implode Tsin's massive box storage area by the OTF barrier.

[Tenlaar]

Someone sounds bitter...

Nah, just pointing out that you wanting some adrenaline rush from the risk of losing your weapon while playing GS isn't a compelling reason to keep a ridiculous mechanic that causes players to improve weapons until they are good enough that they won't use them any more.

[Methais]

The easy fix would be to just remove the benefit the weapon provides for the duration of the disarm.

The more interesting fix would be to tie weapon recovery to the Adventurer's Guild.

[Astray]

The more interesting fix would be to tie weapon recovery to the Adventurer's Guild.

Yes. But we require more tedium.

[Methais]

Yes. But we require more tedium.

>ask rhe about weapon

Rheteger says, "Nope, haven't found it yet. Feel free to ASK me again when you'd like an update though!"

>ask rhe about weapon

Rheteger says, "Nope, haven't found it yet. Feel free to ASK me again when you'd like an update though!"

>ask rhe about weapon

Rheteger says, "Nope, haven't found it yet. Feel free to ASK me again when you'd like an update though!"

x10000

>ask rhe about weapon

Rheteger says, "Ah yes, I almost forgot. Here you go!"
Rhetegar hands you your weapon.


Is that better?

[Taernath]

>ask rhe about weapon
Rheteger says, "Nope, haven't found it yet. Feel free to ASK me again when you'd like an update though!"
[ Weapon returns in: 0:90:00, 00:90:00 remaining. ]

>ask rhe about weapon
Rheteger says, "You don't seem to have any instant weapon returning vouchers, Methais."

[You may purchase instant weapon returning vouchers from the SimuCoins Store.]
http://store.play.net/store/purchase/GS

fixed

[Astray]

>ask rhe about weapon

Rheteger says, "Nope, haven't found it yet. Feel free to ASK me again when you'd like an update though!"

>ask rhe about weapon

Rheteger says, "Nope, haven't found it yet. Feel free to ASK me again when you'd like an update though!"

>ask rhe about weapon

Rheteger says, "Nope, haven't found it yet. Feel free to ASK me again when you'd like an update though!"

x10000

>ask rhe about weapon

Rheteger says, "Ah yes, I almost forgot. Here you go!"
Rhetegar hands you your weapon.


Is that better?

That's fucking awful. So yeah, it'll do. Wyrom quick!

[SashaFierce]

Someone sounds bitter...

I definately agree permanent loss should be removed somehow, but taking away the risk completely ala causing items to stay on your character or go into phantom mode seems like it would remove alot of the excitement and feeling of risk. And fight or flight reactions and brain stimulation is what makes us play the game in the first place. It's what makes MMOs addictive, if you didnt have any dopamine rush on finding a cool item or the negative side of risk vs. reward the game would quickly lose it's appeal.

[Old Ta'Faendryl, North - 12077]
You notice some acantha leaf, a heavy crystal-capped maul, a silver wand, a twisted crystal-tipped staff, a jagged steel flamberge, a twisted wand, a heavy steel maul, a twisted crystal-tipped staff, a jagged steel flamberge, a twisted crystal-tipped staff, a heavy crystal-capped maul, a heavy steel maul, the Dhairn disk, the Venruki disk, the Snutz disk, the Chulo disk, the Idiah disk, the Xyelin disk, a twisted crystal-tipped staff, a twisted crystal-tipped staff, a heavy steel maul, a twisted crystal-tipped staff, the Dragsho disk, the Dafixer disk, the earth brown Nadagast disk, the fiery red Astare disk and the Arasleaf disk.
Also here: Chulo, Dragsho, Xyelin, Dafixer, Idiah, Nadagast, Adredrin, Astare, Snutz, Dhairn, Venruki, Arasleaf
Obvious paths: east, southeast, south, southwest, west, northwest

[Old Ta'Faendryl, North - 12074]
You notice an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir champion, a war griffin (flying), an Ithzir champion, a war griffin (flying), an Ithzir adept, an Ithzir champion, a war griffin (flying), an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir champion, a greater construct, an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir adept and a greater construct.
Obvious paths: east, southeast, south, southwest, west, northwest

[Old Ta'Faendryl, Northeast - 12082]
You notice an Ithzir adept, an Ithzir seer, an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir champion, a war griffin (flying), an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir adept, an Ithzir adept and an Ithzir champion.
Obvious paths: east, south, west


When there is a large group in OTF using provoke, this is what it looks like. Good luck not getting disarmed and losing your weapon here.

Disarm has never provided excitement, only frustration and a "fuck this shit" feeling. Especially when you're max trained to defend against it and it still doesn't prevent you from being disarmed.

[SashaFierce]

Also, just food for thought.

I guess the way this came about is Finros made a proposal to fix disarm, and it was approved, so he's coding it. (slowly?)

Finros coded monks. Monks suck.

Prepare for the new disarm to be horrible.

You would think player feedback should be considered prior to "fixing" an issue as big as this.

[Methais]

[Old Ta'Faendryl, North - 12077]
You notice some acantha leaf, a heavy crystal-capped maul, a silver wand, a twisted crystal-tipped staff, a jagged steel flamberge, a twisted wand, a heavy steel maul, a twisted crystal-tipped staff, a jagged steel flamberge, a twisted crystal-tipped staff, a heavy crystal-capped maul, a heavy steel maul, the Dhairn disk, the Venruki disk, the Snutz disk, the Chulo disk, the Idiah disk, the Xyelin disk, a twisted crystal-tipped staff, a twisted crystal-tipped staff, a heavy steel maul, a twisted crystal-tipped staff, the Dragsho disk, the Dafixer disk, the earth brown Nadagast disk, the fiery red Astare disk and the Arasleaf disk.
Also here: Chulo, Dragsho, Xyelin, Dafixer, Idiah, Nadagast, Adredrin, Astare, Snutz, Dhairn, Venruki, Arasleaf
Obvious paths: east, southeast, south, southwest, west, northwest

[Old Ta'Faendryl, North - 12074]
You notice an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir champion, a war griffin (flying), an Ithzir champion, a war griffin (flying), an Ithzir adept, an Ithzir champion, a war griffin (flying), an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir champion, a greater construct, an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir adept and a greater construct.
Obvious paths: east, southeast, south, southwest, west, northwest

[Old Ta'Faendryl, Northeast - 12082]
You notice an Ithzir adept, an Ithzir seer, an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir champion, a war griffin (flying), an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir champion, an Ithzir adept, an Ithzir adept and an Ithzir champion.
Obvious paths: east, south, west


When there is a large group in OTF using provoke, this is what it looks like. Good luck not getting disarmed and losing your weapon here.

Disarm has never provided excitement, only frustration and a "fuck this shit" feeling. Especially when you're max trained to defend against it and it still doesn't prevent you from being disarmed.

That looks awesome as fuck.

WTB Self knowledge Provoke item.

[OMGWTFBBQ]

Also, just food for thought.

I guess the way this came about is Finros made a proposal to fix disarm, and it was approved, so he's coding it. (slowly?)

Finros coded monks. Monks suck.

Prepare for the new disarm to be horrible.

You would think player feedback should be considered prior to "fixing" an issue as big as this.

Finros thinks monks are just fine.

Apparently he wanted the class to only be played by like 10 people at any time with absolutely no value to add to the community.

[zingzang]

Implosion no longer will swallow up registered items, so at least there's that.


Yes and no for implode.

If it's Registered and on the ground, it's safe and shouldn't be sucked up. If a critter has it and is imploded/no searchable corpse (billions and billions of bits!), then it still gets sucked up, or at least it did ~1 month ago when I tested it with just a basic "registered" dyed claidhmore.

I did kill some other critters to see if it was in the hopper, but it never spit back out. I can try it again with a DR throw-away weapon that's a bit more special, but registered should be registered. I'd operate on the assumption that when a critter is holding a weapon, it also goes poof when the critter does.


So... that'd be a good one to "fix" too if the GMs are looking at this. Namely, if a critter is holding a weapon when it's vaporized, please make it drop the damn thing. As it is right now in places like OTF and Nelemar I LOOK at things to make sure they're not packing for fear of vaporizing someone's toy.

[Donquix]

Finros thinks monks are just fine.

Apparently he wanted the class to only be played by like 10 people at any time with absolutely no value to add to the community.

Spicey memes about monks from before the HSN changes.

[Drew]

When I cancelled my account a few weeks ago this was my main reason I put for leaving. I've done a lot of work (like other people) getting my weapons upgraded and pretty and to not really have a way to use them near cap is annoying.

[Viekn]

When I cancelled my account a few weeks ago this was my main reason I put for leaving. I've done a lot of work (like other people) getting my weapons upgraded and pretty and to not really have a way to use them near cap is annoying.

Does this mean you'll be back once they fix it?

[gilchristr]

I would like to work like you have your arm cut off, the weapon still appears in your hand but you gain no benefit from it.

[SashaFierce]

I would like to work like you have your arm cut off, the weapon still appears in your hand but you gain no benefit from it.

They have specifically stated that they don't want it to become sunder weapon. Unfortunately it looks like the weapon is still going to hit the ground, will still be able to be stolen, and will require the use of some type of new system if it's stolen.

If that sounds like no fun to you, now is the time to post stating so on the officials. Once it's been completed the chances of getting something better are far less likely.

[Tgo01]

The solution to disarming is simple; have the disarmed weapons teleported to my cloak.

[Taernath]

If that sounds like no fun to you, now is the time to post stating so on the officials. Once it's been completed the chances of getting something better are far less likely.

Finros/Estild's posts make it seem like they've already decided what's going to happen.

[Fallen]

I hope it's something simple, like the weapon flips out of your hand and stabs into the ground (yes, blunts and runestaves too). No one can grab it but you, but it's out of your hands and all that junk.

[Khariz]

because it will

[Gelston]

I'm sure it'll be Less Tedium, More Fun™.

[Astray]

I'm sure it'll be Less Tedium, More Fun™.

Yep. Totally how it'll go down. Then cue Simu waffle stomping the shit down the drain.

[Methais]

why do i get the uneasy feeling that the disarm update is going to have more drama than the wizard updates?

Because Estild hates listening to feedback.

[Khariz]

In this case it'll be Finros not listening to feedback.

[Mogonis]

Every hunting area with disarm mechanics has a critter-run pawnshop that holds player weapons for high ransom. Good chance for RP and for critters to feed their little babies while mocking players.

[Neveragain]

Disarm should notify on duty staff so they can take over the critter and proceed to beat your ass to a pulp with your own weapon then leave it buried in your heart with a killing blow.

[Stunseed]

I'd like to see disarm handled in the following :

Utilize sunder shield with "enhancements". Endrolls over 150 should leave the weapon hand numbed and hinder your DF utilizing an effect. Randomized effect time with an absolute minimum, the remainder can be mitigated with a strength/constitution bonus check. Say 3% DF reduction per rank CM-wise, with a master in the warrior guild capping at a 20% DF reduction to those they disarm.

Just RT is boring, and since using the same mechanic of Sunder Shield gives zero chance of item droppage, this factor will provide the negative effect.

[Neovik1]

I'd like to see disarm handled in the following :

Utilize sunder shield with "enhancements". Endrolls over 150 should leave the weapon hand numbed and hinder your DF utilizing an effect. Randomized effect time with an absolute minimum, the remainder can be mitigated with a strength/constitution bonus check. Say 3% DF reduction per rank CM-wise, with a master in the warrior guild capping at a 20% DF reduction to those they disarm.

Just RT is boring, and since using the same mechanic of Sunder Shield gives zero chance of item droppage, this factor will provide the negative effect.

Sunder shield is probably one of the most annoying things I deal with in the Scatter. With that being said, I would rather have something similar occur to a weapon instead of an out right disarm.

[Drew]

Does this mean you'll be back once they fix it?

I'd at least come back and cap my character after 20 years.

[Barble]

I really like this idea mostly because it keeps things IC while creating a minor coin sink but making it a lot simpler to not lose a valuable item. Make it so the item must be registered and marked as well or the mercenary will charge you even more (since he could otherwise just sell it himself :D)


If you lose your weapon to a disarm, you should be able to go to the clerk in whatever city you're in and hire a band of mercenaries to go out and retrieve it for you. Costs XX,XXX silvers or something, and takes half an hour of logged-in time (can't just log off for half an hour). I'd think they could automate that on the coding end pretty simply? You miss out on a couple of rounds of bounties (if you're hammering them out), you're inconvenienced, but you also get your Boomstick of Doom back safe and sound.

[Destrier]

I would like to consider, the item to be transferred to a grizzled creature of the type. Next time you get a kill grizzled creature task from Adventurers guild, it has it in hand. Or perhaps it is given to a bandit leader, and next bandit patrol you get some uber bandit leader with said item in hand.

Aurach

[Fallen]

I would like to consider, the item to be transferred to a grizzled creature of the type. Next time you get a kill grizzled creature task from Adventurers guild, it has it in hand. Or perhaps it is given to a bandit leader, and next bandit patrol you get some uber bandit leader with said item in hand.

Aurach

Interesting idea. I like it. Dangerous, though, if Implosion wasn't fixed to not take items with the target if they are blown to bits.

[nocturnix]

So far the best idea IMO is a combination of several ideas posted here.

1. Change disarm CMAN (maybe consider changing costs a little bit too, since for pures its a TON of TP)
2. With no disarm training you can be disarmed and lose your weapon.
3. More ranks means less chance of being completely disarmed.
4. At rank 4 the weapon will never leave your hand...hand becomes numbed and cant use weapon for xx RT, but you wont lose it.
5. Rank 5 has least chance/best defensive chance of defending against disarm, again 0 chance of dropping weapon, but now affects of disarm are lessened as well.

So you have to invest TP to protect against disarm. If you dont, you can lose your weap. From rank 3 or 4 on, you have 0 chance of losing your weap, and affects are lessened. Maybe scale the length of the effect higher ranks of defensive vs. offensive ranks.

I believe this is similar to how it works now, but with the added tweaks of higher ranks changing chance of losing weap to 0 and reducing TP investment costs for classes training in it for defensive purposes.

I like this the best imo, and it doesnt require a massive overhaul. Just some modification of existing CM. I think its a bit too expensive now for pures anyways. Maybe pures only get a defensive version without the verb to use as an offensive attack, in exchange for cheaper TP investment? I doubt there are many casters who are using disarm offensively now anyways...

[Gelston]

They've already decided on disarm though. At 101 roll, the janitor comes out and takes the weapon from your hand.

[zhetswai]

Another idea is the ability to hire squires to retrieve an item dropped.



If you lose your weapon to a disarm, you should be able to go to the clerk in whatever city you're in and hire a band of mercenaries to go out and retrieve it for you. Costs XX,XXX silvers or something, and takes half an hour of logged-in time (can't just log off for half an hour). I'd think they could automate that on the coding end pretty simply? You miss out on a couple of rounds of bounties (if you're hammering them out), you're inconvenienced, but you also get your Boomstick of Doom back safe and sound.

[Tamarin]

I will never forget the day Deathlore imploded Sakalav's butcher knife.

Here I was creeping the boards as I do every couple of years and I run into one of my most awkward moments in Gemstone IV that I still remember randomly.

I still mostly remember it. A party of 4, Sakalav (rogue), another Rogue whose name started with an N, a cleric and myself (the stupid sorcerer) went out for a group hunt in the Hisskra in Rivers Rest. As the hunting was going very slow due to the melee weapons being disarmed by their tough skin, I decided to wait for both the melee to attack any threats before making any hasty implosions. Well this sorcerer who wanted to show off his new power in competition to other sorcerers like Dighn grew rather impatient.

So not only did I implode the mans treasured merchant purchased 12lb 4x dagger into the abyss, I was at the time courting the mans girlfriend who would eventually become my in game wife, Jinii. It was quite the talk of Rivers Rest for a week or two. It did take me years to finally understand that the blade was just more than a 12 shank of glaes, it personified his character.

So just like Mogonis trying to find his Krodera long blade, It took me 3-4 guilt laden years trying to find a replacement. I was very close to having a merchant alter a weapon to look exactly like it. Eventually, I found a replacement and had it delivered and we both shook hands.

Not just anyone could remember an event such as this, and I'd be lying if I wasn't curious as to who you are. If it's you though Sakalav, a million pardons again, I still haven't forgotten.

Deathlore

[Neveragain]

Here I was creeping the boards as I do every couple of years and I run into one of my most awkward moments in Gemstone IV that I still remember randomly.

I still mostly remember it. A party of 4, Sakalav (rogue), another Rogue whose name started with an N, a cleric and myself (the stupid sorcerer) went out for a group hunt in the Hisskra in Rivers Rest. As the hunting was going very slow due to the melee weapons being disarmed by their tough skin, I decided to wait for both the melee to attack any threats before making any hasty implosions. Well this sorcerer who wanted to show off his new power in competition to other sorcerers like Dighn grew rather impatient.

So not only did I implode the mans treasured merchant purchased 12lb 4x dagger into the abyss, I was at the time courting the mans girlfriend who would eventually become my in game wife, Jinii. It was quite the talk of Rivers Rest for a week or two. It did take me years to finally understand that the blade was just more than a 12 shank of glaes, it personified his character.

So just like Mogonis trying to find his Krodera long blade, It took me 3-4 guilt laden years trying to find a replacement. I was very close to having a merchant alter a weapon to look exactly like it. Eventually, I found a replacement and had it delivered and we both shook hands.

Not just anyone could remember an event such as this, and I'd be lying if I wasn't curious as to who you are. If it's you though Sakalav, a million pardons again, I still haven't forgotten.

Deathlore

I was the rogue that started with N who is not Neovik and the Cleric was a reeree and a Deeva. :lol:

What ever happened to Jinii, she was a keeper?

[Fallen]

Here I was creeping the boards as I do every couple of years and I run into one of my most awkward moments in Gemstone IV that I still remember randomly.

I still mostly remember it. A party of 4, Sakalav (rogue), another Rogue whose name started with an N, a cleric and myself (the stupid sorcerer) went out for a group hunt in the Hisskra in Rivers Rest. As the hunting was going very slow due to the melee weapons being disarmed by their tough skin, I decided to wait for both the melee to attack any threats before making any hasty implosions. Well this sorcerer who wanted to show off his new power in competition to other sorcerers like Dighn grew rather impatient.

So not only did I implode the mans treasured merchant purchased 12lb 4x dagger into the abyss, I was at the time courting the mans girlfriend who would eventually become my in game wife, Jinii. It was quite the talk of Rivers Rest for a week or two. It did take me years to finally understand that the blade was just more than a 12 shank of glaes, it personified his character.

So just like Mogonis trying to find his Krodera long blade, It took me 3-4 guilt laden years trying to find a replacement. I was very close to having a merchant alter a weapon to look exactly like it. Eventually, I found a replacement and had it delivered and we both shook hands.

Not just anyone could remember an event such as this, and I'd be lying if I wasn't curious as to who you are. If it's you though Sakalav, a million pardons again, I still haven't forgotten.

Deathlore

I remember Deathlore! Good times back on RR.

- Dighn

[Gelston]

It took years to replace an overweight 4x dagger? I mean, I played during AOL days... 4x was never hard to get.

[Neveragain]

It took years to replace an overweight 4x dagger? I mean, I played during AOL days... 4x was never hard to get.

To be honest Sakalav blew it waaaaaay out of proportion, I kind of hate saying that as Sakalav may as well have been my brother. It was probably difficult to get them to make a meat cleaver is all I can think. Deathlore is also the guy that would cast call lightning on our crossbow bolts when we were experimenting, which lead to Turban of doom and in turn lead to gem of fate. Honestly Turban of doom is sooo much more fun.

[Gelston]

To be honest Sakalav blew it waaaaaay out of proportion, I kind of hate saying that as Sakalav may as well have been my brother. It was probably difficult to get them to make a meat cleaver is all I can think. Deathlore is also the guy that would cast call lightning on our crossbow bolts when we were experimenting, which lead to Turban of doom and in turn lead to gem of fate. Honestly Turban of doom is sooo much more fun.

We played lethal loaf of legends, not your n00b RR version.

[Wrathbringer]

We played lethal loaf of legends, not your n00b RR version.

Lethal loaf of legends? Is that a story about a turd?

[Gelston]

Lethal loaf of legends? Is that a story about a turd?

No.

[Neveragain]

We played lethal loaf of legends, not your n00b RR version.

Never heard of it.

[Gelston]

Never heard of it.

You weren't cool enough to hang out on the boulder I guess.

[Neveragain]

You weren't cool enough to hang out on the boulder I guess.

I was busy releasing the Aletoes from bondage and exploring uncharted islands.

[Gelston]

I was busy releasing the Aletoes from bondage and exploring uncharted islands.

Sounds incredibly dull.

[Neveragain]

Sounds incredibly dull.

I assure you it wasn't.

[Gelston]

I assure you it wasn't.

Your assurances mean very little to me, so I say adieu and goodbye!

[Neveragain]

Your assurances mean very little to me, so I say adieu and goodbye!

Just remember every time you're banging an Aletoe it's because I was there first.

8806

[Gelston]

Just remember every time your banging an Aletoe it's because I was there first.

8806

WTF is an aletoe?

[Wrathbringer]

WTF is an aletoe?

It's what shit the lethal loaf of legend.

[Gelston]

It's what shit the lethal loaf of legend.

Actually, the loaf is just manna bread.

[Neveragain]

WTF is an aletoe?

You're not cool enough to be in on that one.

[Gelston]

You're not cool enough to be in on that one.

You probably mean those winged idiots with their broken common. They can go back into slavery. Dumbest race ever.

[Methais]

Actually, the loaf is just manna bread.

Until it's digested, so both are correct.

[Neveragain]

You probably mean those winged idiots with their broken common. They can go back into slavery. Dumbest race ever.

Now, now, no reason to be upset that the Aletoes replaced your female Sylph.

[Gelston]

Now, now, no reason to be upset that the Aletoes replaced your female Sylph.

Are Aelotoi the cyber whore race now?

[SylphSorc]

What the fuck happened with this topic? I want some goddamn disarm closure!

[Methais]

What the fuck happened with this topic? I want some goddamn disarm closure!

Aelotoi have since been confirmed as being the cyber whore race now. You may rest easy now.

[SylphSorc]

Ah, thanks for clearing that up!

...Know any aelotai?

[drauz]

What the fuck happened with this topic? I want some goddamn disarm closure!

RSN