Democrats challenge Ohio electoral votes

[Parkbandit]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Citing "widespread irregularities" on Election Day, a handful of House Democrats and one senator objected Thursday to the counting of Ohio's 20 electoral votes, delaying the official certification of the 2004 presidential election results.

The Democrats said they were not trying to overturn President Bush's re-election but want to draw attention to the need for aggressive election reform in the wake of what they said were widespread voter problems.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now.. if their intention is to force a discussion about election reform and such.. I am right there with them. If their intention is to bitch about how the Democrats were wronged and how the mean old Republicans stole another election.. then they are stupid fucks that are wasting time and our money.

I would like to think it would be for the first reason.. but knowing the Democrats like I do, I regret it's more for the 2nd reason... which saddens me.

[Ravenstorm]

I agree. It's disgraceful. Wasting time and money for purely political gains. They might as well be Republicans!

Whatever their motivations, it will accomplish the first goal as well so more power to them. This shit shouldn't be happening every election.

Raven

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
I agree. It's disgraceful. Wasting time and money for purely political gains. They might as well be Republicans!

Whatever their motivations, it will accomplish the first goal as well so more power to them. This shit shouldn't be happening every election.

Raven

It's too bad "this shit" happens JUST as much with the Democrats as it does with the Republicans.

I realize this is something you cannot come to grips with.. but it's reality.

If you want to change the system.. let's talk about it. I'm ready. I've been calling for election reform for the past 4 years. If it's more of the sour grape bullshit.. then stick a sock in it. It's a broken record that is only being played because you lost. Had you won, that record would have been put away for another 4 years.

[DeV]

More power to em'. They're stiring up the pot and not everyone likes the ingredients! That would be the case no matter who's doing the stirring.

PB, you want to talk about it but I don't think everyone from your side is ready to listen or else they'd all be working together in Congress. It's sad if it is sour grapes because the majority of us are *over it*.
I believe Bush won the election, hands down.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by DeV

I believe Bush won the election, hands down.

It was clearly a mandate.

:duck:

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
It's too bad "this shit" happens JUST as much with the Democrats as it does with the Republicans.

I realize this is something you cannot come to grips with.. but it's reality.

You're so full of shit PB. Did I defend anyone? No. Yet it's me who can't come to grips with it? Let's see what you said:


...but knowing the Democrats like I do...

Where in your original post are you claiming Republicans are just as guilty of this as the Democrats are? And yet I put them on exactly equal footing.

Give it a rest: your sacred Republicans are just as full of shit as the rest of the politicians in this country and are in it first to get re-elected, play party politics, and then maybe, if it's not too inconvenient, serve the public they supposedly represent.

You were the only one leaving out the other half of our two party system in your condemnation.

Raven

[Back]

This is a good thing... for both reasons! I agree 100% that our election process needs to be re-examined and better systems put in place to insure everyone gets a vote, and that every vote gets counted. If we need to spend money on this, we should write a blank check... this is one of the freedoms our country was founded on.

Two, you have to double-check those republicans all the time otherwise you'll have them with complete access to your income tax records and mini-cams in every home if you don’t.

[Parkbandit]

The article said the Democrats were the ones that were blocking the Ohio election results. I suppose that could be my reason for posting my opinion regarding their maneuver. Sorry I wasn't more clear on that... or sorry I was clear on that and you didn't pick up on it.

You are so full of shit RS. You were the one that posted:


They might as well be Republicans!

Don't bash that which you yourself practice.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Backlash
This is a good thing... for both reasons! I agree 100% that our election process needs to be re-examined and better systems put in place to insure everyone gets a vote, and that every vote gets counted. If we need to spend money on this, we should write a blank check... this is one of the freedoms our country was founded on.



While I agree with the sentiment.. I don't believe either party really wants the true election reform we need in this country. Both parties benefit from the way things are currently.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Don't bash that which you yourself practice.

Indeed.

Raven

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Don't bash that which you yourself practice.

Indeed.

Raven

You started it.

[Keller]

"'There's a wise saying we've used in Florida the past four years that the other side would be wise to learn: Get over it,' said Rep. Ric Keller, R-Fla."

[Back]

Originally posted by Keller
"'There's a wise saying we've used in Florida the past four years that the other side would be wise to learn: Get over it,' said Rep. Ric Keller, R-Fla."

No. I will not “get over it”, it being the working man’s stolen right to vote. I’ll never get over it. You shouldn’t either. You may as well lay down in your grave if thats the attitude you want to take in life.

[Anebriated]

It's a broken record

Didnt we already have like 4 threads about the same thing? The only difference might have been that the last group who pointed fingers were the Naderites. When they take it to the next step and try to fix the problems, then post it. If they try to pull the "democrats were wronged" BS then post it. What you posted looks to be a pretty generic statement about a system that many people know needs to be fixed.

[Warriorbird]

"If it's more of the sour grape bullshit.. then stick a sock in it. It's a broken record that is only being played because you lost. Had you won, that record would have been put away for another 4 years. "

Remember Ken Starr? Shh.

[Fengus]

Its like a personal vindication for some on you. You didn't win, Bush won, not please STFU. Its like PB wants to rehash the same victory again, *you* get over it. If Ohio senators think their voters want them to push the issue of electoral votes then they will do so, whats so hard to understand? Uhh We the people?

You saying the issue is a waste of money is just a very weak emotional appeal, if you live in Ohio and dislike this situation, be sure to vote those guys out.


Hitler loves the electoral college system, and Halliburton.

I saw this coming from a mile away. Living in MA, we got a ton of coverage about Kerry. This guy is a whiney little girl that can't stand he lost. I have a strong feeling he played a direct part in this. He lost try again next election, for fuck's sake.

- Arkans

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Arkans
I saw this coming from a mile away. Living in MA, we got a ton of coverage about Kerry. This guy is a whiney little girl that can't stand he lost. I have a strong feeling he played a direct part in this. He lost try again next election, for fuck's sake.

- Arkans

What exactly does Kerry gain from having a "part in this"?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Arkans
I saw this coming from a mile away. Living in MA, we got a ton of coverage about Kerry. This guy is a whiney little girl that can't stand he lost. I have a strong feeling he played a direct part in this. He lost try again next election, for fuck's sake.

- Arkans

I've actually gained more respect for Kerry in his defeat than I did when he was running for President.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
"If it's more of the sour grape bullshit.. then stick a sock in it. It's a broken record that is only being played because you lost. Had you won, that record would have been put away for another 4 years. "

Remember Ken Starr? Shh.

Your "hero" had more to do with the emergence of Ken Starr than any Republican ever did.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

<Hitler loves the electoral college system, and Halliburton.>

Ain't a thread til you bring in Nazi's!

Hitler also loves children and animals.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/uah/uah17.htm

[Warriorbird]

Ha ha ha. Cute. Pot calling the kettle black, PB. They're all politicians. All sides do that crap.

[Geoff]

Same thing is happening in the Washington governors race, only the other direction. Republicans are fighting the third recounct result for "irregularities" and they might have a point since the race was so close.

Article about it... (http://komo4.com/stories/34681.htm)

PB is right, both sides need to get together on fixing the problem but they won't, they're too busy gaming the system.

Hitler was also a vegetarian and didn't smoke. SO YOU NON-SMOKING VEGETARIANS KILL ANY JEWS LATELY?!?!??!?!//1/1

- Arkans

[Hulkein]

I stole the election for Bush.

It's still sitting in a ziplocked bag under my sink.

[Keller]

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Keller
"'There's a wise saying we've used in Florida the past four years that the other side would be wise to learn: Get over it,' said Rep. Ric Keller, R-Fla."

No. I will not “get over it”, it being the working man’s stolen right to vote. I’ll never get over it. You shouldn’t either. You may as well lay down in your grave if thats the attitude you want to take in life.

You're confusing me for Ric Keller. If you look at my posts in the first thread on the Ohio issue you'll see I vehemently support counting every vote. There were more voters than ever before to turn out in 04. Many of whom might not vote next election if they realize Washington doesn't even "need" their votes.

I'm not upset at you for the assumption, just setting the record straight.

[Back]

Originally posted by Keller

Originally posted by Backlash

Originally posted by Keller
"'There's a wise saying we've used in Florida the past four years that the other side would be wise to learn: Get over it,' said Rep. Ric Keller, R-Fla."

No. I will not “get over it”, it being the working man’s stolen right to vote. I’ll never get over it. You shouldn’t either. You may as well lay down in your grave if thats the attitude you want to take in life.

You're confusing me for Ric Keller. If you look at my posts in the first thread on the Ohio issue you'll see I vehemently support counting every vote. There were more voters than ever before to turn out in 04. Many of whom might not vote next election if they realize Washington doesn't even "need" their votes.

I'm not upset at you for the assumption, just setting the record straight.

Just responding to the quote and that “get over it” attitude. Its in the interest of the winning side to examine the votes closely.

Too bad its not like the NFL where teams want to play the game and win fairly. When everyone saw that instant replays could make the game more fair, it was added to the game to insure fairness.

In politics, if you ask for a recount, you are called a whiner, told to shut-up and stop acting like a pussy. Its bullshit.

Nader, 08. :unclesam:

[Wezas]

Republican Dino Rossi on Wednesday urged his Democratic rival in the governor's race to join him in calling for a revote. (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0412300332dec30,1,2646652.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true)

Use:

Username - "blurb@sofort-mail.de"
Password - "noblurb"

(Use BugMeNot.com for any sites that require registration)



From a bias news source (of course), but here's the letter from his actual site.

http://www.dinorossi.com/news/letter.php

What's the point anyway? Bush FUCKING PWNED Kerry on the popular vote and that's what the Democrates have been whining about for the last four years. I thought that's what should matter?

- Arkans

[DeV]

What should matter is that reform should no longer be brushed to the side.

I don't think the fact that Bush won is the driving force here. I believe it was stated that they are not challenging Bush's win but recognizing that reform needs to start somewhere. It would be better if they were all working together in Congress but that isn't gonna happen anytime soon.

Republicans have been whining just as much as the Democrats, if that's what you want to call it.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Arkans
What's the point anyway? Bush FUCKING PWNED Kerry on the popular vote and that's what the Democrates have been whining about for the last four years. I thought that's what should matter?

- Arkans

That the vote didn't really match the climate, that reports of voting fraud exist, that a simple process was turned into a marathon wait, that a number of things are wrong with the system is why. Who cares if Bush won again, either way a fuckstain is in office, be it again or for the first time.

If you want real reform, you have to go to the source. How candidates are handled.

Our media and the nation as a whole recognizes a two party system, when in fact we have more than two parties.

We also leave it up to each individual state to handle elections in a manner they see fit. Each state also has it's own requirement for federal positions.

Reform is needed across the board.

I believe the media should be required to give any candidate that will appear on the ballot equal billing. This means that during a debate we should see all of the candidates appearing on multiple ballots. In the last election it should have been Bush, Kerry, Nader, Badnarik, and whoever the fifth guy was. (I'm in no mood to search).

This isn't to say anyone making a (one ballot) should require equal billing; this means a candidate appearing on multiple ballots should get as much time as the main two.

Federal elections should be held the exact same way from state to state. The same apparatus, the same process. Campaigning should not be allowed within a half mile of the polls and political affiliation should be hung up with the campaign boundary.

If you want to dig deeper, I think there should be certain requirements put in place for Federal level state representation. I don't think most people realize, or care, how bad carpet bagging is. Sure it's ok if you get a candidate you like, but most often it costs the people being "represented" money that could be better spent. Elected position on the Federal level shouldn't be handled like free-agency.

People in NY may be thrilled with Clinton, but think about the huge disservice the GOP did to the faithful GOP in IL with Keyes.

No, I believe that in order to eligible for any Federal position that is representative of a state, one needs to be a tax paying resident of said state for no less than the equivalent time span of the office that person is seeking. So if Joe "I wanna screw ya" Smith wants to be a Senator from Michigan, he needs to be a tax paying resident of Michigan for six years before he can run.

And here's a novel thought ... NO FEDERAL OR STATE DOLLARS FOR CHAMPAIGNS!

Here's another .... TRIPLE TAXATION ON ALL DONATIONS OVER 50 GRAND!

While we're at it, how about some treason charges, or at the very least, 25 years in prison to anyone fucking with the election process.

This last election made me sick, I wonder how the next one will make me feel.

[Back]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
While we're at it, how about some treason charges, or at the very least, 25 years in prison to anyone fucking with the election process.


This idea had occured to me as well. Treason charge with all the punishments involved. Its the working class that really make this country what it is. You take away or tamper with the common man’s vote, you are taking away from or tampering with our nation.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
That the vote didn't really match the climate, that reports of voting fraud exist, that a simple process was turned into a marathon wait, that a number of things are wrong with the system is why. Who cares if Bush won again, either way a fuckstain is in office, be it again or for the first time.

What climate? The climate of how you and your friends felt?

The election results were right around what most polling agencies were predicting. Rasmussenreports.com nailed it, almost with 100% accuracy.

So basically, in your opinion, polls (which got it right, this time) are BS, but the 'climate' is something that is both tangible and correct.

I guess this climate is what you based your 'who actually thinks Bush has a shot' post on the day of the election. The climate around you wasn't the same throughout the nation, apparently.

[Edited on 1-7-2005 by Hulkein]

[Latrinsorm]

Zogby got it wrong, though, as did electoral-vote.com or whatever that site was Peam found. Just being thorough. :)

[Hulkein]

By wrong you mean they weren't 100% accurate, but the majority of them all had Bush winning.

http://politics.slate.msn.com/id/2110860/

You can read about how all of them did.

[Tsa`ah]

My stance on polls has not changed. I don't believe there is one poll out there that has an accurate sampling method, nor do I believe there are many out there without bias.

Polls can be purchased.

Per your "remarks" about climate.

I just didn't see the DNC, nor Dems in general, being protested. The climate is perception, and perception is swayed by observance. What I, and many many many others, observed was an anti-incumbent climate. More specifically and anti-administration climate.

You (Hulkein) can stick to polls and political bias; I would rather remain objective in my perception.

Going on perception, I perceive you took a shot at one part of a dynamic statement. Leads me to believe your GOP news letter is running late.

[Hulkein]

Using polls that have good reputations isn't sticking to political bias.

Saying polls are unreliable because some of them are bought is like saying online news sites are unreliable and biased because of the Drudgereports of the internet.

As for your view of the climate, it is really no different. Besides the small sample you have from the region you live in, the national climate (which is exponentially more important than your local climate) you feel is dependent on what is reported.

You choosing to find neutral and unbiased news through the airwaves to get a gauge on the 'climate' is no different than me choosing to find polls that are neutral and unbiased.

I can get those from polling agencies with a positive reputation, just as you can find relatively neutral and unbiased news from those with a positive reputation.

[Edited on 1-7-2005 by Hulkein]

[Tsa`ah]

Yet neutral and unbiased does not exist. Only the belief that they are exists.

[Hulkein]

Then I guess both of us are screwed.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

What I, and many many many others, observed was an anti-incumbent climate. More specifically and anti-administration climate.


And what I observed was a very stong backing of our President. Where I live, Bush is rather well liked and Democrats like Kerry are not. It all depends on what media you watch/read/listen to, where you live, type of people you hang out with, etc...

[Fengus]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Our media and the nation as a whole recognizes a two party system, when in fact we have more than two parties.



I agree with most of the points you've raised but this one is invalid. Call it social science but while we have many smaller side parties our system does not work with more than 2 parties, and if you are voting for any but those two you are wasting your vote. This is the reason why at this point I think Nader is a complete moron despite his earlier career or is now a Republican shill, all he is doing is weakening the democrats.

This idea is nothing new, but perhaps new to the average uneducated or undereducated american, its been written about since the birth of our nation.

The other inevitable aspect of our two party system is that you will only ever see moderate and mediocre leaders rise by popular vote. Preventing this was the supposed reason for the electoral college concept, but as we have been seeing for years now, it obviously doesn't work. We haven't had a real leader in the presidency since JFK.

Bush, he just pandered to the majority better than Kerry. And perhaps americans feel being born to wealth makes a better leader than marrying wealth. Cause thats just about the only difference, oh yeah right and Bush went AWOL from service while Kerry got a number of medals.

[Parkbandit]

BUSH R AWOL!!!!

BUSH R BAD!!!!

KERRY R GOOD!!!

:lol2::lol2::lol2:

[Fengus]

I was in the military, while it wasn't the national guard (lol), the type of people that went AWOL that I knew of were not the type of people that had much in the way of leadership qualities, or any good qualities at all. Perhaps this is why he is able to pander to the majority better, because he has no morals, honor or self-disipline.


But in reality its was just a partisan vote. I laugh my ass off when I drive by trailer parks and see Bush signs on their 10 sq ft yard. Like Bush is playing for the little people, yeah right. I'm not gonna raise any other points, live in your illusion if you want it.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

What I, and many many many others, observed was an anti-incumbent climate. More specifically and anti-administration climate.


And what I observed was a very stong backing of our President. Where I live, Bush is rather well liked and Democrats like Kerry are not. It all depends on what media you watch/read/listen to, where you live, type of people you hang out with, etc...
How quickly we forget... :saint:


Originally posted by Parkbandit
I went to vote this morning. Usually, it's a 20 minute affair... I park, wait in line for a couple minutes and vote.

This morning I couldn't even park... let alone get in line.

I see this as a very bad omen for Bush. Many people in this line were young.. which traditionally favors the challenger.

I'm nervous for the first time in this election... It all boils down to our own individual perceptions which can change very quickly from one hour to the next; from months leading up to the election to the final hours before the final deciding votes are tabulated and processed.

[Parkbandit]

My 5 minute worry wasn't what I would consider the "climate" leading up to the election. It was an assumption by me that young people = democratic voters.

That obviously was not the case as my precinct was solidly behind Bush.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Fengus

I laugh my ass off when I drive by trailer parks and see Bush signs on their 10 sq ft yard. Like Bush is playing for the little people, yeah right. I'm not gonna raise any other points, live in your illusion if you want it.

I laugh my ass off when I drive by trailer parks and see Kerry signs on their 10 sq ft yard. Like Kerry is playing for the little people, yeah right. I'm not gonna raise any other points, live in your illusion if you want to.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
My 5 minute worry wasn't what I would consider the "climate" leading up to the election. It was an assumption by me that young people = democratic voters.

That obviously was not the case as my precinct was solidly behind Bush. Unless you ran down to the polls to vote and made it back home to post your worry on the PC within 5 minutes it was more than a 5 minute worry. It's all considered to be the climate from the beginning to end and in between, it is all encompassing.

I was pointing out how quickly we have the capacity to change from one minute to the next because of how we view the "climate" at any given time. We all do it. It's human nature.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Parkbandit
My 5 minute worry wasn't what I would consider the "climate" leading up to the election. It was an assumption by me that young people = democratic voters.

That obviously was not the case as my precinct was solidly behind Bush. Unless you ran down to the polls to vote and made it back home to post your worry on the PC within 5 minutes it was more than a 5 minute worry. It's all considered to be the climate from the beginning to end and in between, it is all encompassing.

I was pointing out how quickly we have the capacity to change from one minute to the next because of how we view the "climate" at any given time. We all do it. It's human nature.

I view the election climate as the months leading up to the actual election. I would hardly consider the 2 hours from initial visit to the polls and posting my concerns about the election results as the "climate".

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I view the election climate as the months leading up to the actual election. I would hardly consider the 2 hours from initial visit to the polls and posting my concerns about the election results as the "climate". I can accept that. But I do view it as the climate from beginning to end. Individual perceptions.

[Wezas]

The Bush administration paid a prominent black journalist to promote President Bush's education law and give Education Secretary Rod Paige media time, records show. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/bush.journalist.ap/index.html)

"permissible use of taxpayer funds under legal government contracting procedures" or "the act of bribing journalists to bias their news in favor of government policies undermines the integrity of our democracy."?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by DeV

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I view the election climate as the months leading up to the actual election. I would hardly consider the 2 hours from initial visit to the polls and posting my concerns about the election results as the "climate". I can accept that. But I do view it as the climate from beginning to end. Individual perceptions.

I won't say I wasn't worried.. seeing the people standing in line at the polls and the initial data coming out.. yea, I was very nervous.

Thankfully, the American people got it right.

:)

[DeV]

Originally posted by Wezas
The Bush administration paid a prominent black journalist to promote President Bush's education law and give Education Secretary Rod Paige media time, records show. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/bush.journalist.ap/index.html)

"permissible use of taxpayer funds under legal government contracting procedures" or "the act of bribing journalists to bias their news in favor of government policies undermines the integrity of our democracy."? So, we're using American's tax dollars to pay journalists to raise awareness about laws. Just grand. At least the journalist admits his judgement wasn't the best.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Fengus

I laugh my ass off when I drive by trailer parks and see Bush signs on their 10 sq ft yard. Like Bush is playing for the little people, yeah right. I'm not gonna raise any other points, live in your illusion if you want it.

I laugh my ass off when I drive by trailer parks and see Kerry signs on their 10 sq ft yard. Like Kerry is playing for the little people, yeah right. I'm not gonna raise any other points, live in your illusion if you want to.

I try to avoid trailer parks actually. The get hit by tornado's