Ideas to Drain Silvers

[SashaFierce]

So IMO, there is a large need to drain silvers from the game. The 2016 Auction pulled 12 billion from the game, but silvers have steadily fallen in price ever since.

What kind of things would be good silver drains for the game?

What would you pay silvers for, and how many silvers would you pay for it?



I would pay silvers to change the weapon base of a weapon.
-- Have a chamber in the weapon shop, or have an automated blacksmith that can "reforge" a weapon into a different weapon within the same category.
-- Base the cost of the service on the enchant/abilities of the weapon.
-- Changing a 6x plain longsword into a short sword would cost a million silvers. Add 5 million to the cost for HCW. Add 25 million to the cost for MCW.

I would pay silvers to change the armor SG.
-- Have a chamber in the armor shop, or have an automated blacksmith/leatherworker? that can "reforge" armor into a different armor within the same SG category.
-- Base the cost of the service on the enchant/abilities of the armor.
-- Changing a 6x plain double leather into full leather would cost 3 million silvers. Add 5 million to the cost for HCP. Add 25 million to the cost for MCP. (3m was the 1-step cost at BMC)

I would pay silvers to change the base material of a weapon or armor.
-- Have a thing for rolaren? Find some and have your vultite weapon reforged.
-- Same as above pretty much, automated NPC that takes material and reforges your current item to use that material.

I would pay silvers to increase the storage in my private property.

I would pay silvers to increase the room number count in my private property.

I would pay silvers to make my private property permanent.

I would pay a huge amount of silvers to make the node in my property a super node.


How about an NPC bard that will loresing for 50k per item.
-- This would create a net loss for anyone selling the item to the pawnshop. (-15k)

How about an NPC wizard that will enchant for ungodly amounts.
-- (5x = 5m, 6x = 15m, 7x = 30m - Add 10m for HCP/W, add 100m for MCP/W)
-- I realize these options step on the toes of player abilities, but the costs would be incredibly high so that players would be first priority unless you have throw away money.


L/D for 1m per service.

[Fallen]

Silvers for new properties. Drains silvers and doesn't need mechanical balancing.

A means to buy Simucoins with silvers. Would require some hand waving to make the transaction IC, but that's trivial.

Permanent enhancive charging for silvers. Have the old period of allowing this process give a preferential rate instead.

Temporary buffs for existing equipment for silvers. Could be time or usage based, priced accordingly.

Temporary enhancive potions for silvers.

Just a few off the top of my head.

[Wrathbringer]

Dragonbones or some sort of mega gambling boat with no limit, raffles for great things with no ticket purchase limits.

[Fallen]

Dragonbones or some sort of mega gambling boat with no limit, raffles for great things with no ticket purchase limits.

They could even do raffles for GALDs with no ticket purchase limits.

I'd also like to see auctions for GALD work, or even high purchase price GALDs. Obviously not every time one is offered, but as a means to drain silver from those who have it and would pay to guarantee their spot in line.

[SashaFierce]

Dragonbones or some sort of mega gambling boat with no limit, raffles for great things with no ticket purchase limits.

Dragonbones doesn't actually remove any silver, it just redistributes it among those playing.

[Ososis]

They could even do raffles for GALDs with no ticket purchase limits.

I'd also like to see auctions for GALD work, or even high purchase price GALDs. Obviously not every time one is offered, but as a means to drain silver from those who have it and would pay to guarantee their spot in line.

A regular sadie scroll raffle would be awesome.

[Methais]

Let people use silvers in place of bounty points if they want to all year round instead of just for the last week or 2 of the year.

Make chronomages instant instead of every 90 minutes. People will use it and travel more in general.

[Wrathbringer]

Dragonbones doesn't actually remove any silver, it just redistributes it among those playing.

The house makes nothing? Well, that wouldn't work then, but some type of high limits gambling that is open 24/7 should drain a large amount of silvers.

[hello]

+Bank robberies, randomly take 10~25% of all silvers in bank accounts or coin hands.

+Taxes, 5% tax on sung value items each month.

[SashaFierce]

+Bank robberies, randomly take 10~25% of all silvers in bank accounts or coin hands.

+Taxes, 5% tax on sung value items each month.

Die.

[Mogonis]

I would pay silvers for Mog to patent krodera and therefore have a monopoly and make it illegal for anyone else to possess it or change an item to it.

[0zymandius]

I'd pay silvers for NPC Guild partners.

WARCRY TEACH FlimFlam
{This service will incur a debt of 150,000 silvers, and comes with a duration of ten minutes of access to the NPC Guild Partner. Please WARCRY TEACH again in the next 30 seconds to confirm, and a debt will be filed at the local bank.}

I'd pay silvers for good-length blesses (hello Reim).

;go2 Temple
Ask priestess about bless
{This service will incur a debt of 200,000 silvers, and provides a bless on the weapon you have in hand for a duration of 2 hours, unlimited swings. Please ASK PRIESTESS again in the next 30 seconds to confirm}

I'd pay silvers for an automated return of a registered item that the janitor picked up... with a smaller fee to confirm that nothing of yours got janitored (letting you know that someone grabbed it).

;go2 Clerk
Ask clerk about Janitor
The clerk checks his records for a moment, then looks up at you and says, "I see here that you recently lost a runestaff in Old Ta'Faendryl! Rather careless of you, don't you think? A local citizen grabbed it in passing and turned it in to us. We can return it to you immediately for the small fee of 100,000 silvers. Otherwise you can put in a petition and we'll get around to you whenever we get the chance. What do you say?"

[Fallen]

I like the idea of NPC guild lessons a lot.

[Wyrom]

If you want to think of silver drains, you need to think of numbers in the trillions. Anything under 20 billion silver doesn't do a dent.

[Ltlprprincess]

Permify temp weighting/padding/sighting.

[ArchSenex]

Silver Purchased XP Boosts...

[ArchSenex]

Also, any attempt to drain silvers will have very little likelyhood of working, because you have an infinitely elastic source of silvers. Even the metaphor illustrates this (it's like draining a tub while there's a fire hydrant pouring into it). The only REAL way to drain silvers would be to drastically reduce the source, which would re-value them but would have... side effects.

The other way to handle this is to deliberately but VERY SLOWLY devalue them on purpose, to make them no longer attractive to farm, and then replace them with a non-transferable effort-based currency. Keep in mind that in many, many MMO's, currency is next to worthless, and what gets you most items is effort.

[Eodus]

I like the idea of a service or boost that wouldn't add to the fixed asset value of an item. Needs to be disposable/temporary or water will find its own level.

[Whirlin]

If you want to think of silver drains, you need to think of numbers in the trillions. Anything under 20 billion silver doesn't do a dent.
"Don't let the best get in the way of better." -Whirlin

[SashaFierce]

If you want to think of silver drains, you need to think of numbers in the trillions. Anything under 20 billion silver doesn't do a dent.

It would surprise me to find out that there are trillions of silvers in total, on current active accounts. I'm going to assume that includes all accounts, even inactive ones. But even then, the number seems high.

I vaguely remember a conversation a while back where it was said like 100m was generated every month. Although I could be off on that number. That would put the economy at 1 billion per year generated.


I'm curious to know your thoughts on the current state of the market, the declining value of silvers, and any possible silver drains that would be considered. Is it your intention to devalue the silver market? The string of alt-currency events, and Summit Academy where hundreds of millions is pumped into the game makes me think that there is an effort to kill the currency market.

[Whirlin]

It would surprise me to find out that there are trillions of silvers in total, on current active accounts. I'm going to assume that includes all accounts, even inactive ones. But even then, the number seems high.

I vaguely remember a conversation a while back where it was said like 100m was generated every month. Although I could be off on that number. That would put the economy at 1 billion per year generated.


I'm curious to know your thoughts on the current state of the market, the declining value of silvers, and any possible silver drains that would be considered. Is it your intention to devalue the silver market? The string of alt-currency events, and Summit Academy where hundreds of millions is pumped into the game makes me think that there is an effort to kill the currency market.
Hell, Hand of the Arkati alone has generated a total of approximately 391,136,313 silvers through our nightly events (more if you count unscheduled events) And that's only counting once we REALLY started tracking stuff in December. And that's only in 2 hours a day of activity.

[ArchSenex]

Napkin Math:

Asssume a person can earn 50,000 in an hour, which I think is probably a bit low (40 Kills @ 1250 Silvers per kill gets you there). With only 5 farmers active in the game, that's 250,000 an hour, and in a month that alone is 180,000,000 silvers, and that's just assuming that there's an average of 5 people getting that income at any given time.

[mgoddess]

+Bank robberies, randomly take 10~25% of all silvers in bank accounts or coin hands.

+Taxes, 5% tax on sung value items each month.

FUCK. NO.

[hello]

If you want to think of silver drains, you need to think of numbers in the trillions. Anything under 20 billion silver doesn't do a dent.

There's no way (without upsetting rich Gemstoners). You can do a 'grand auction' every other month and it wouldn't do much.

Honestly, if you really think about it, if you want any kind of solution you have to go back to the start. The silver source is critters, that much we know. So, I would start there.

If you die, there is a 10% chance Lorminstra will deny your depart or ressurection. The only way around this is to pay a sacrifice of 1 million silvers.(depending upon total EXP).

Or I would make it so that critters can take player corpses and ransom them.
So, say a Lich kills Roblar. If Roblar's friends fails to get his body back then it ends up in ransom. Roblar would need to pony up 1 million silvers (or whatever depending upon total exp) to get a chance to depart or be rezzed.

Weapon/armor breakage. I'm sorry but this is probably THE best way to drain silvers without seriously pissing off a lot of rich gemstoners.

[hello]

Another way is to just do a hard reset.

Basically, divide everything by 100; ALL silvers held on ALL characters (active or not) and silver drops from critters (500 silver drop is now 5 silvers), pawnshop/gemshop prices (10k vultite shortsword now will fetch 100 silvers) etc.

[Fallen]

If you want to think of silver drains, you need to think of numbers in the trillions. Anything under 20 billion silver doesn't do a dent.

You would have to do a high roller's auction of essentially OP 1 of a kind items/services. Potions that grant permanent EXP multipliers, Profession changes, Self-knowledge spell circle enhancives, private islands/hunting grounds, etc. Crazy shit like that. Hell, don't even have it as a 1 time auction. Have crazy high reserves and leave it open ended. Once a bid is in place someone has a week to beat it or the item/service is sold.

That being said, dismissing the idea of adding more silver sinks because of the ludicrous amounts out there isn't productive. I imagine if you were to cut out the top 5-10 holders, the average silver per active account would be quite small.

[Ososis]

There's no way (without upsetting rich Gemstoners). You can do a 'grand auction' every other month and it wouldn't do much.

Honestly, if you really think about it, if you want any kind of solution you have to go back to the start. The silver source is critters, that much we know. So, I would start there.

If you die, there is a 10% chance Lorminstra will deny your depart or ressurection. The only way around this is to pay a sacrifice of 1 million silvers.(depending upon total EXP).

Or I would make it so that critters can take player corpses and ransom them.
So, say a Lich kills Roblar. If Roblar's friends fails to get his body back then it ends up in ransom. Roblar would need to pony up 1 million silvers (or whatever depending upon total exp) to get a chance to depart or be rezzed.

Weapon/armor breakage. I'm sorry but this is probably THE best way to drain silvers without seriously pissing off a lot of rich gemstoners.

The goal is to drain silvers in a way people enjoy. Charging people for things that used to be free is not constructive thought.

[Methais]

I vaguely remember a conversation a while back where it was said like 100m was generated every month. Although I could be off on that number. That would put the economy at 1 billion per year generated.

Not even remotely close.

[Fallen]

Another way is to just do a hard reset.

Basically, divide everything by 100; ALL silvers held on ALL characters (active or not) and silver drops from critters (500 silver drop is now 5 silvers), pawnshop/gemshop prices (10k vultite shortsword now will fetch 100 silvers) etc.

There are solutions like this that would "fix" the problem but ultimately be terrible for the game. Actually cracking down on silver sales would be another.

[Ardwen]

Billions of silvers are generated each month, the last auction more or less removed a month's silver from circulation. Its very easy to make silver in GS, sure its a grind but it's far from hard. I generally hunt just the weekends and mostly just do bounties and easily clear a million with minimal effort. He;; ask anyone i hunt with I leave half the gems on the ground.

I do like the time based boost possibilities, problem being eventually they become the norm and then you get to where everyone needs them to be effective.

Lots of things with minimal mechanical effect is however possible, properties, shops, character alters, race change etc etc

[hello]

The goal is to drain silvers in a way people enjoy. Charging people for things that used to be free is not constructive thought.

Like I said it's just not possible this way. You could do a grand auction every month and totally fuck up the power balance and item scarcity in the game and you'll only do a dent.

It's just something that should've been resolved back in the day and now it's way out of control without doing something drastic.

[hello]

Again, judging from how people are reacting to this thread a solution without 'fuck you I'm putting my foot down' is just not possible. You could do all the shitty enhancive recharge or player rent blah blah but it won't do one single dent at the overall problem.

Again, if I were in Wyrom's position or probably Whatley's, I would implement non-permament Weapon/Gear breakage, simple. Yes there's gonna be a ton of bitching but in the end as long as breakage is equitable (affects everyone and not just a few) people will get over it.

[Winter]

I'm going to guess that it will all even out once the player shops are all fully active, the variety of things to purchase when they were first released was awesome. Presently I've had to rely on GALDS to outfit a new character when in the past there was enough between the player shops Spitfire and Dhu Gillywack. The players that sell items on the merchant's thread deserve a round of applause because it's a lot effort and they're the ones helping to keep the economy alive. I think the economy is probably one the most fundamental parts of any mmorpg, once that goes tits up people start to lose interest.

[SashaFierce]

Again, judging from how people are reacting to this thread a solution without 'fuck you I'm putting my foot down' is just not possible. You could do all the shitty enhancive recharge or player rent blah blah but it won't do one single dent at the overall problem.

Again, if I were in Wyrom's position or probably Whatley's, I would implement non-permament Weapon/Gear breakage, simple. Yes there's gonna be a ton of bitching but in the end as long as breakage is equitable (affects everyone and not just a few) people will get over it.

Go find another thread to troll. I would like it if you don't post in any thread I create, ever.

[chalion]

Not even remotely close.

Yeah, it was more like 10billion each month. And it was Wyrom in one of the 5116 Auction threads.

Any silver sink will have to be automated, which greatly limits what could be done. As much as some people hate them, the "effort based" economies are things like Reim and DR. Both of those also have a $$ connection as part of the "balancing" equation. So where does that put us? Simutronics as a companies tried/tries to balance the flow of high end equipment with real money purchases as a block/limiter and we as a community have basically shattered those blocks with each attempt because (Insert any one of a lot of reasons).

While I agree with a lot of the ideas listed, it all comes at the price of GM time, which is less likely to be traded for silver outside of raffles and special free events for each purchase. I certainly hope you are sticking with automation of tasks on all fronts, not just DR. So that more services CAN be implimented for silver sinks all the time, freeing up GMs to focus on content (Items, quests, storylines etc).

[SonoftheNorth]

Sell character renames or race changes for an obscene amount.

[Eodus]

How about reducing the flow of silver into the game in a more general sense? It's the only way to take absolute control without constantly having to look for band-aid solutions from a macro perspective. Create scarcity. This is the only real solution.

[Astray]

Whore house. Boom, problem solved.

[Ososis]

A big problem is how do you drain meaningful silvers from the billionaires without creating more division between the have and have nots. I really think fluff could be the answer. People dump loads of silvers on fluff (saw a dress go for more than some awesome weapons) and it has no real bearing on gameplay. Sure, some people like myself has very little interest in fluff, but I still get sucked in by some cool bits.

[Maerit]

You could probably drain billions of silvers if you let people recharge enhancives for silvers instead of BP. I imagine it would also increase the use of enhancives because they would be more easily recharged.

Of course, that could eat into revenue because of the 30-day recharge for a single item (which no one buys for their +5 logic earring) sold for simucoins.

[hello]

OMG, this topic is TOXIC. And the GMs are too scared to touch it guys. Unless you're willing to bite some negative pushback just stop.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Its-Not-Going-to-Happen-Mean-Girls.gif

[Methais]

Create some sort of automated in-game loot crate system that offers mostly cosmetic/fluff/RP/scripted items or something along those lines. Just have it generate some random 15/15/15 stuff, and maybe a small chance for things like a decent piece of gear, alter scrolls, etc. Maybe a super small chance for a high end item. Basically nothing that's going to have a major effect on combat for the most part, unless you're really really really lucky.

Price the box in tiers. 10k for a tier 1 box, 50k for tier 2, 100k for tier 3, etc. up to whatever.

Do it in a way so it's not stepping on the toes of the DR digging "it's-not-gambling" scheme, while still being good enough to where people will get hooked and blow all their silvers on them.

[Gelston]

Give it all to me.

[Ardwen]

There are many possible fluff or character personalization that would sell for large sums, E$specially if you allowed for harder to get things, like feature alters that are skirting the line and most GMs don't really want to do in a normal merchant setting due to approval delays.

[Methais]

Give it all to me.

You'll have to throw yourself down the well after to remove them from the game.

[hello]

There is also the 'nuclear option' which hasn't been discussed, potentially an all-in-one solution.

Introducing into the economy a second form of currency; gold coins. I'll just leave it at that.

[beldannon5]

How bout just leave

[Winter]

There is also the 'nuclear option' which hasn't been discussed, potentially an all-in-one solution.

Introducing into the economy a second form of currency; gold coins. I'll just leave it at that.


Other currencies already exist

[Wyrom]

You would have to do a high roller's auction of essentially OP 1 of a kind items/services. Potions that grant permanent EXP multipliers, Profession changes, Self-knowledge spell circle enhancives, private islands/hunting grounds, etc. Crazy shit like that. Hell, don't even have it as a 1 time auction. Have crazy high reserves and leave it open ended. Once a bid is in place someone has a week to beat it or the item/service is sold.

That being said, dismissing the idea of adding more silver sinks because of the ludicrous amounts out there isn't productive. I imagine if you were to cut out the top 5-10 holders, the average silver per active account would be quite small.

No one is dismissing it. Just not a single idea that can be mass produced to drain silvers has been mentioned. Just low-cost benefits added.

And you'd be surprised where all the silver is. Those that you all think are rich don't really have all the wealth. There are far more than 10 people with most the wealth in Prime.

[Methais]

No one is dismissing it. Just not a single idea that can be mass produced to drain silvers has been mentioned. Just low-cost benefits added.

And you'd be surprised where all the silver is. Those that you all think are rich don't really have all the wealth. There are far more than 10 people with most the wealth in Prime.

In game loot crates.

[Gelston]

In game loot crates.

Fuck you.

[hello]

Breakage Wyrom, Breakage...give the order El Capitan!

https://media.giphy.com/media/bKnEnd65zqxfq/giphy.gif

[Peppwyn]

There needs to be a reason to disperse your silvers, not reduce the amount available. Perhaps item binding could be useful?

[hello]

There needs to be a reason to disperse your silvers, not reduce the amount available. Perhaps item binding could be useful?

^^^ This.

Item binding.

[Methais]

Fuck you.

https://img.ifcdn.com/images/1b78238891b94580313510ac3b5a76bfde1cf85dd6a146c24e 3c9d0e025b615d_1.jpg

[BLZrizz]

I don't think silvers are really the significant issue as much as identifying the right mechanism that incentivizes hunting and engaging in menial in-game tasks.

Silver still performs this function today, but much less effectively than in the past, and continues to its drive to zero. Consequently, opportunities to obtain the highest level gear via silvers alone have largely dwindled. Silver as a system of exchange is largely borked today and I gather would be impossible to fix at this point via in-game means. Thing is, every game economy hits this point eventually, and GS has held out longer than most.

You can't outright seize silver as this would be untenable due to loss aversion, but you can accomplish the same by marginalizing it as a means of exchange and access to high-tier gear gradually, as the staff is employing to good effect. So it's not harmful to have silver...the game can continue to provide trillions to function purely as a scoring mechanism (like fame), but the staff CAN separate it from the economy and keep that going to support the game's long term health. This is actually happening, from my observation as a player.

Now, the key is to ensure the alternate currencies don't run away, and we are already seeing this with bloodscrip. Remember, there are few casual players left in Gemstone; all that are left are the most dedicated diehards that will boil currency generation down to a science and then sweatshop the crap out of it.

The key is to mix in non-silver incentives with rewards player crave:

- rare or accumulated drops that permit access to automated quests (troubled waters, NOTA, etc)
- rare or accumulated drops that permit participation in limited population GM-run quests
- ores for forging and player crafting, and to permit repairs and enhancements to weapons and armor
- super-rare reagents to permit otherwise unreachable player services (both mechanical and non-mechanical)

The solution has to be holistic, but the right solution is a mix of random (drops and raffles) and non-random (chuck-e-cheese ticket style).

Also, I think the staff needs to examine and re-prioritize where GM-hours are spent, as folks will spend a lot for GM led interaction. GMs should be creating adventure, not QCing more 4x gear for the next festival or dealing with assists for lost weapons.

I'm no RP maven by any means, but I would love to participate in a short 45 minute GM run quest with a few others. I don't have the patience to keep up with the long, complicated arcs.

I'm not sure how it breaks down currently, but I surmise that a significant amount of GM-time is dedicated to QC that can be crowdsourced to the playerbase, like how it already does with player names. A rework for the disarm/item loss system could also free up GM time and provide a mechanism to support another incentive system.

[hello]

I don't think silvers are really the significant issue as much as identifying the right mechanism that incentivizes hunting and engaging in menial in-game tasks.

Silver still performs this function today, but much less effectively than in the past, and continues to its drive to zero. Consequently, opportunities to obtain the highest level gear via silvers alone have largely dwindled. Silver as a system of exchange is largely borked today and I gather would be impossible to fix at this point via in-game means. Thing is, every game economy hits this point eventually, and GS has held out longer than most.

You can't outright seize silver as this would be untenable due to loss aversion, but you can accomplish the same by marginalizing it as a means of exchange and access to high-tier gear gradually, as the staff is employing to good effect. So it's not harmful to have silver...the game can continue to provide trillions to function purely as a scoring mechanism (like fame), but the staff CAN separate it from the economy and keep that going to support the game's long term health. This is actually happening, from my observation as a player.

Now, the key is to ensure the alternate currencies don't run away, and we are already seeing this with bloodscrip. Remember, there are few casual players left in Gemstone; all that are left are the most dedicated diehards that will boil currency generation down to a science and then sweatshop the crap out of it.

The key is to mix in non-silver incentives with rewards player crave:

- rare or accumulated drops that permit access to automated quests (troubled waters, NOTA, etc)
- rare or accumulated drops that permit participation in limited population GM-run quests
- ores for forging and player crafting, and to permit repairs and enhancements to weapons and armor
- super-rare reagents to permit otherwise unreachable player services (both mechanical and non-mechanical)

The solution has to be holistic, but the right solution is a mix of random (drops and raffles) and non-random (chuck-e-cheese ticket style).

Also, I think the staff needs to examine and re-prioritize where GM-hours are spent, as folks will spend a lot for GM led interaction. GMs should be creating adventure, not QCing more 4x gear for the next festival or dealing with assists for lost weapons.

I'm no RP maven by any means, but I would love to participate in a short 45 minute GM run quest with a few others. I don't have the patience to keep up with the long, complicated arcs.

I'm not sure how it breaks down currently, but I surmise that a significant amount of GM-time is dedicated to QC that can be crowdsourced to the playerbase, like how it already does with player names. A rework for the disarm/item loss system could also free up GM time and provide a mechanism to support another incentive system.

Well thought out, probably the most spot on response yet. Bravo.

[Fortybox]

So IMO, there is a large need to drain silvers from the game. The 2016 Auction pulled 12 billion from the game, but silvers have steadily fallen in price ever since.

What kind of things would be good silver drains for the game?

What would you pay silvers for, and how many silvers would you pay for it?



I would pay silvers to change the weapon base of a weapon.
-- Have a chamber in the weapon shop, or have an automated blacksmith that can "reforge" a weapon into a different weapon within the same category.
-- Base the cost of the service on the enchant/abilities of the weapon.
-- Changing a 6x plain longsword into a short sword would cost a million silvers. Add 5 million to the cost for HCW. Add 25 million to the cost for MCW.

I would pay silvers to change the armor SG.
-- Have a chamber in the armor shop, or have an automated blacksmith/leatherworker? that can "reforge" armor into a different armor within the same SG category.
-- Base the cost of the service on the enchant/abilities of the armor.
-- Changing a 6x plain double leather into full leather would cost 3 million silvers. Add 5 million to the cost for HCP. Add 25 million to the cost for MCP. (3m was the 1-step cost at BMC)

I would pay silvers to change the base material of a weapon or armor.
-- Have a thing for rolaren? Find some and have your vultite weapon reforged.
-- Same as above pretty much, automated NPC that takes material and reforges your current item to use that material.

I would pay silvers to increase the storage in my private property.

I would pay silvers to increase the room number count in my private property.

I would pay silvers to make my private property permanent.

I would pay a huge amount of silvers to make the node in my property a super node.


How about an NPC bard that will loresing for 50k per item.
-- This would create a net loss for anyone selling the item to the pawnshop. (-15k)

How about an NPC wizard that will enchant for ungodly amounts.
-- (5x = 5m, 6x = 15m, 7x = 30m - Add 10m for HCP/W, add 100m for MCP/W)
-- I realize these options step on the toes of player abilities, but the costs would be incredibly high so that players would be first priority unless you have throw away money.


L/D for 1m per service.

STFU retard.

You're only concerned about this because of your speculation.

Screw the cash for silvers market. I hope it burns to the ground.

[SashaFierce]

Let's consider this scenario.

You have an item that is currently worth (today) 20 million silvers, and let's say silvers are worth $7.50 per million, even though some desperate people are listing for $6.

You've got $150 tied up in an item, either in silver value or actual cash.

Silvers continue to plummet in value, because the only way to get something nice is by paying cash to simu for alt-currency, silvers reach the $3 per million mark.


Would you sell your 20m/$150 item for $60? Would you list it for 50m silvers/$150? Or would you just locker it, because it's no longer worth anything.

If they continue to create a situation where silvers have no value, I would expect that we're in for some hyper-inflation. Otherwise, everything everyone currently owns just drops in value.

If silvers no longer serve a purpose, I would expect to see a cash-only market for anything of any real value.

[hello]

STFU retard.

You're only concerned about this because of your speculation.

Screw the cash for silvers market. I hope it burns to the ground.

Silvers are at 6~6.5 per Mil: so it's happening which is great as Simu is directly picking up the remainder.

I don't like the silvers market myself but is it a necessary evil? How many of these guys here would shut down their accounts if the real dollar market tanked? Not sure myself. But.. if it's true that it's a major reason why this ship is still afloat then perhaps we should just turn a blind eye.

BTW, I don't sell silvers or do any outside real dollar transactions myself.

[hello]

Let's consider this scenario.

You have an item that is currently worth (today) 20 million silvers, and let's say silvers are worth $7.50 per million, even though some desperate people are listing for $6.

You've got $150 tied up in an item, either in silver value or actual cash.

Silvers continue to plummet in value, because the only way to get something nice is by paying cash to simu for alt-currency, silvers reach the $3 per million mark.


Would you sell your 20m/$150 item for $60? Would you list it for 50m silvers/$150? Or would you just locker it, because it's no longer worth anything.

If they continue to create a situation where silvers have no value, I would expect that we're in for some hyper-inflation. Otherwise, everything everyone currently owns just drops in value.

If silvers no longer serve a purpose, I would expect to see a cash-only market for anything of any real value.

You sure?

Because the decades I've spent seeing high end items trade hands it's 90% of the time between other high end/advanced players. How many times can you pass around Thalior's eye before everyone in the high-end club gets bored of it?

[BLZrizz]

Let's consider this scenario.

You have an item that is currently worth (today) 20 million silvers, and let's say silvers are worth $7.50 per million, even though some desperate people are listing for $6.

You've got $150 tied up in an item, either in silver value or actual cash.

Silvers continue to plummet in value, because the only way to get something nice is by paying cash to simu for alt-currency, silvers reach the $3 per million mark.


Would you sell your 20m/$150 item for $60? Would you list it for 50m silvers/$150? Or would you just locker it, because it's no longer worth anything.

If they continue to create a situation where silvers have no value, I would expect that we're in for some hyper-inflation. Otherwise, everything everyone currently owns just drops in value.

If silvers no longer serve a purpose, I would expect to see a cash-only market for anything of any real value.

I think the fallacy in your reasoning is that you're tying silver value to something concrete, what that's just the reflected "true value" in that moment in time translated across three media of exchange (expression of player demand in time and space via dollars > silver > item). The value of an item in the truest sense is a function of demand by other players, which in turn is tied directly to the number of people who play the game and desire these items.

[Fortybox]

Let's consider this scenario.

You have an item that is currently worth (today) 20 million silvers, and let's say silvers are worth $7.50 per million, even though some desperate people are listing for $6.

You've got $150 tied up in an item, either in silver value or actual cash.

Silvers continue to plummet in value, because the only way to get something nice is by paying cash to simu for alt-currency, silvers reach the $3 per million mark.


Would you sell your 20m/$150 item for $60? Would you list it for 50m silvers/$150? Or would you just locker it, because it's no longer worth anything.

If they continue to create a situation where silvers have no value, I would expect that we're in for some hyper-inflation. Otherwise, everything everyone currently owns just drops in value.

If silvers no longer serve a purpose, I would expect to see a cash-only market for anything of any real value.

Items should be tied to a price in game rather than tied to cash. Simu is creating its own problem.

[SashaFierce]

The value of an item in the truest sense is a function of demand by other players, which in turn is tied directly to the number of people who play the game and desire these items.

Let's come back to reality for a moment.

Lots of items have a typical selling price, high enchant padded armor was valuable prior to the last duskruin and had standard ranges of value.

It was only when they were sold in unlimited quantity off the shelf did their value plummet. But they're generally selling for 20m.

Do you think they will stay at 20m if/when silvers drop to $3 per?

I guess it will be interesting to see what the future will bring.

[Fortybox]

Let's come back to reality for a moment.

Lots of items have a typical selling price, high enchant padded armor was valuable prior to the last duskruin and had standard ranges of value.

It was only when they were sold in unlimited quantity off the shelf did their value plummet. But they're generally selling for 20m.

Do you think they will stay at 20m if/when silvers drop to $3 per?

I guess it will be interesting to see what the future will bring.

Or Simu sells them through a permanent merchant for...20m. That's the price and it doesn't change.

[hello]

I don't think you understand what Simu is doing. Holy shit, some of you are pretty dense here. The traditional RL $ for in-game shit is slowly being usurped by Simu. It was their intent as soon as alternate in-game currency like <whatever>scrips were introduced.

Again, it's a good move. Since I hate the outside silvers/characters/ingame shit for $ market. BUT, is it healthy for the long-term sustainability for the game? (the loss of the RL $ market) I don't know.

[Fallen]

I don't think you understand what Simu is doing. Holy shit, some of you are pretty dense here. The traditional RL $ for in-game shit is slowly being usurped by Simu. It was their intent as soon as alternate in-game currency like <whatever>scrips were introduced.

Again, it's a good move. Since I hate the outside silvers/characters/ingame shit for $ market. BUT, is it healthy for the long-term sustainability for the game? (the loss of the RL $ market) I don't know.

You'd be right if the items coming out of those events were account bound. Very little if any are.

[BLZrizz]

Do you think they will stay at 20m if/when silvers drop to $3 per?

It's an interesting thought experiment for sure, and not an easy one, since you have multiple forces at play.

I'm only guessing at the data, but I think the mean rate of silver per player continues to rise but the median is probably where it has been for a decade plus. The rich just keep better at collecting silver, and they keep stockpiling more, but this is largely locked away and is not in normal circulation. You see it on occasion during events like the great auction.

I don't think those 6x HCP/W items are a good example because the vast majority of them, I surmise, are not in circulation, and the market is still experiencing player-imposed scarcity that is propping up prices.

The thing is, a $3/per silver price carries with it a series of associated conditions, like a reduction in population, continued uncontrolled silver generation, etc. I do see the silver price rising for some higher-end but readily available commodities like 6x HCP/W, with the caveat being that those transactions would not happen very often because the silver has no other attractive outlet (bad $3/mil market, and bad silver/item market). Remember the sale only happens when one side prefers the opportunities offered by the alternative over the item. The ultra-high end market has essentially turned cash/barter-only at this point.

As I stated previously, the silver/dollar rate is simply a reflection of player demand, not the cause of it.

[hello]

You'd be right if the items coming out of those events were account bound. Very little if any are.

Why account bound? Sure, you could turn around and resell it for RL cash but how effectively now that people can go directly to the source bypassing the middle man.

[Fallen]

Why account bound? Sure, you could turn around and resell it for RL cash but how effectively now that people can go directly to the source bypassing the middle man.

It was already said in this thread. Accruing Blood Script or any of the secondary currencies on offer takes hours (upon hours for nicer items) of work. Many are unwilling or incapable of doing it.

[Ardwen]

What some of you seem to be missing is, Simu doesn't value items based on what we see as their cash value or the silver value, if they did a whole lot of off the shelf items would be selling for vastly different prices higher or lower depending on the items, and also the vast majority of high end items essentially never change hands, using things like Thalior's eye as examples is ridiculous, its had essentially 3 owners in 24 years, thats less than many real world homes. The items that change hands most constantly are the mid level ones, as people either upgrade towards high end or players come and go and buy to use short term and sell when they stop playing again. There is vastly more value in the 20 to 75 million price range then the 100 million or more range. Most people might have 1 or two 9 digit item, almost everyone has items in the next class in some cases lots and lots of them.

[hello]

It was already said in this thread. Accruing Blood Script or any of the secondary currencies on offer takes hours (upon hours for nicer items) of work. Many are unwilling or incapable of doing it.

Eh, I don't buy that arguement. If anything I saw a ton of scrips being bought for silvers (which in turn could be bought for RL cash) but I also saw people quasi-afk scripting through the sewers or DM or EG dig whatever.

If I had a choice between scripting through the sewers or just buying my scrip I would script through the sewers because of the chance for a BIG pull (like a rare stone or cool weapon etc.). I've sold a ton of scrips and almost everytime I would get that question ,"Um, you got any books/jars on you?"

[hello]

What some of you seem to be missing is, Simu doesn't value items based on what we see as their cash value or the silver value, if they did a whole lot of off the shelf items would be selling for vastly different prices higher or lower depending on the items, and also the vast majority of high end items essentially never change hands, using things like Thalior's eye as examples is ridiculous, its had essentially 3 owners in 24 years, thats less than many real world homes. The items that change hands most constantly are the mid level ones, as people either upgrade towards high end or players come and go and buy to use short term and sell when they stop playing again. There is vastly more value in the 20 to 75 million price range then the 100 million or more range. Most people might have 1 or two 9 digit item, almost everyone has items in the next class in some cases lots and lots of them.

That's actually even more damning. If Thalior's eye (aka cool high end item) has a total utility of 3 people in it's lifetime then there is little wonder that silvers are getting hammered. It's bleeding value, everytime someone buys something he or she needs (the mid tier item as you say) and probably that one toy item, there's not much to really spend silvers (especially with the Duskruins, EGs, Pay events).

[Neveragain]

Game time for silvers, event tickets for silvers, monthly account upgrades for silvers. Honestly there is no good answer to the problem that would not upset a portion of the player base or a profit sacrifice for SIMU.

Without basically killing the drop rate from critters the only real answer is to let the cash market find it's target price. Silvers at $1 per million for example would kill any incentive to farm silvers for cash profits.

In all honesty cash value for items and silvers should have 0 bearing on any decisions made by SIMU for future development. Of course it's been known for decades that cash sales will kill a games economy and a blind eye has been turned for years now.

Maybe change the name of the game to The Weimar Republic at this point?

[Fallen]

Game time for silvers, event tickets for silvers, monthly account upgrades for silvers. Honestly there is no good answer to the problem that would not upset a portion of the player base or a profit sacrifice for SIMU.

Without basically killing the drop rate from critters the only real answer is to let the cash market find it's target price. Silvers at $1 per million for example would kill any incentive to farm silvers for cash profits.

In all honesty cash value for items and silvers should have 0 bearing on any decisions made by SIMU for future development. Of course it's been known for decades that cash sales will kill a games economy and a blind eye has been turned for years now.

Maybe change the name of the game to The Weimar Republic at this point?

It's your opinion that the secondary player market hurts the game rather than helps it? I doubt you will find many that agree with you.

[Neveragain]

It's your opinion that the secondary player market hurts the game rather than helps it? I doubt you will find many that agree with you.

If it didn't hurt this discussion wouldn't be taking place. Every attempt at a fix will end with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

As mentioned earlier, the only real fix would be to create a formula that ties the amount of currency directly to loot drops. The problem is in the real world value is directly tied to scarcity, the gold vein eventually runs dry. Would you continue playing if critters didn't drop anything for x amount of years simply for the purpose of propping up real life cash values?

[hello]

They should just sell 'Simuscrip' which can be used in EG, Dusk, and everywhere where Simucoins are accepted. It's basically this now anyway, and now you're cutting out the pretend "gaming" aspect of typing kill kill kill in the arena or search search search in the sewers along with the precious man hours spent on making them.

[Fallen]

If it didn't hurt this discussion wouldn't be taking place. Every attempt at a fix will end with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

As mentioned earlier, the only real fix would be to create a formula that ties the amount of currency directly to loot drops. The problem is in the real world value is directly tied to scarcity, the gold vein eventually runs dry. Would you continue playing if critters didn't drop anything for x amount of years simply for the purpose of propping up real life cash values?

I'm not entirely convinced that the price of silvers is a metric that the GMs have to concern themselves with to any great extent. It's highly variable and tends to follow big events. This discussion is taking place because 1 person started it, not because there is any great consensus of a crisis taking place.

I'd personally like to see more silver sinks in the game, but don't believe the overall health of the game depends upon it. As has been stated in other threads, GMs seem to be slowly curtailing the amounts of silver able to be generated over the past few years. I imagine that trend will continue until they feel a healthy balance is reached.

If silver reaches an extremely low value, such as 1 dollar per million, you'd simply see the economy move to a trade-based model, or straight cash rather than silvers. This already frequently takes place when people sell out or are already wealthy. Again, not the end of the game or the player economy. Perhaps just the end of a few silver seller's careers.

[Neveragain]

I'm not entirely convinced that the price of silvers is a metric that the GMs have to concern themselves with to any great extent. It's highly variable and tends to follow big events. This discussion is taking place because 1 person started it, not because there is any great consensus of a crisis taking place.

I'd personally like to see more silver sinks in the game, but don't believe the overall health of the game depends upon it. As has been stated in other threads, GMs seem to be slowly curtailing the amounts of silver able to be generated over the past few years. I imagine that trend will continue until they feel a healthy balance is reached.

If silver reaches an extremely low value, such as 1 dollar per million, you'd simply see the economy move to a trade-based model, or straight cash rather than silvers. This already frequently takes place when people sell out or are already wealthy. Again, not the end of the game or the player economy. Perhaps just the end of a few silver seller's careers.

I kind of think that's what I said in my original reply. Do nothing and let the cash market find it's sweet spot. Hell I know silver sellers that completely rely on Gemstone to pay their rent while our real life tax dollars supplement their chosen lifestyle.

[hello]

I'm not entirely convinced that the price of silvers is a metric that the GMs have to concern themselves with to any great extent. It's highly variable and tends to follow big events. This discussion is taking place because 1 person started it, not because there is any great consensus of a crisis taking place.

I'd personally like to see more silver sinks in the game, but don't believe the overall health of the game depends upon it. As has been stated in other threads, GMs seem to be slowly curtailing the amounts of silver able to be generated over the past few years. I imagine that trend will continue until they feel a healthy balance is reached.

If silver reaches an extremely low value, such as 1 dollar per million, you'd simply see the economy move to a trade-based model, or straight cash rather than silvers. This already frequently takes place when people sell out or are already wealthy. Again, not the end of the game or the player economy. Perhaps just the end of a few silver seller's careers.

I think this is extremely optimistic. I think what's happening is Simu realized that their pop. and subs aren't going to explode back to the thousands and is scrambling for other sources of revenue. Seeing how 100's of thousands of dollars were exchanging hands in the secondary market Simu decided to dive in.

F2P I believe was basically like lube or a smokescreen; to get people used to buying Simucoins for the eventual selling of in-game items directly for cash. I think this was genius on whomever thought of this. I would also take it a step further and say that Simu realizes leaving some part of the secondary market intact is in their best interest since many sell to play.

Overall,I see the game heading in a solid direction even if it's at the cost of some player/profiteers.

[SashaFierce]

If it didn't hurt this discussion wouldn't be taking place. Every attempt at a fix will end with wailing and gnashing of teeth.

As mentioned earlier, the only real fix would be to create a formula that ties the amount of currency directly to loot drops. The problem is in the real world value is directly tied to scarcity, the gold vein eventually runs dry. Would you continue playing if critters didn't drop anything for x amount of years simply for the purpose of propping up real life cash values?

I don't think the only fix is by stopping loot drops.

And the purpose wouldn't be to prop up the real life cash value of silvers. It would be to prevent hyper-inflation of basically everything.

The cash market is part of the game, whether you like it or not. Wyrom used to participate in it, so I'm sure he's not exactly against it.

You may not like it, but it's only going to get worse unless some kind of effort is taken to find a need for silvers.

[Methais]

Loot crates. It would basically be an in game silver based slot machine. People lose all self control with that shit and will be poor in no time if it's done right. Just look at how dumb people got with digging.

A good silver drain fix would be something automated that people will get hooked on easily that can but usually won't pay off. That glimmer of hope that the next pull will be the lucky pull will keep them dumping coins into it, deathly afraid that if they walk away now the next pull would have been the payoff.

Go a little further and make a Gold Saucer like area with all kinds of similar games to piss your money away on with a small chance of a payoff.

[Gelston]

Loot crates. It would basically be an in game silver based slot machine. People lose all self control with that shit and will be poor in no time if it's done right. Just look at how dumb people got with digging.

I was thinking you meant crates that required you to use out of game currency to buy keys to open.

[Peppwyn]

People love that RNG stuff!

[Methais]

I was thinking you meant crates that required you to use out of game currency to buy keys to open.


https://youtu.be/D4WO0mirjlQ

I even had example silver prices in my first post about it.

Reported.

[Taernath]

I was thinking you meant crates that required you to use out of game currency to buy keys to open.

Those are 'gold' lootcrates. Silver lootcrates can be unlocked normal silver currency.

[Gelston]

Those are 'gold' lootcrates. Silver lootcrates can be unlocked normal silver currency.

Only gold lootcrate will have things in them worth a damn though! They'll also make gamewide announcements when something good is found.

[Methais]

Those are 'gold' lootcrates. Silver lootcrates can be unlocked normal silver currency.

Gold loot crates would be like 250k silvers or something.

Start at 10k for a bottom tier box, all the way up to 500k-1m or whatever for a platinum box.

[Methais]

Only gold lootcrate will have things in them worth a damn though! They'll also make gamewide announcements when something good is found.

You can get good shit from any of them. The more expensive the box, the greater (but still probably not that great) chance for a good pull. You could put literally anything into this system.

Pulling an epic item from a shit tier box is possible, but the odds of it actually happening would be incredibly low like rolling 5 100s in a row low or something.

[Gelston]

Gold loot crates would be like 250k silvers or something.

Start at 10k for a bottom tier box, all the way up to 500k-1m or whatever for a platinum box.

Doesn't something like this sorta exist, only for BPs instead of silver? Seems they could tweek that.

[Methais]

Doesn't something like this sorta exist, only for BPs instead of silver? Seems they could tweek that.

I think so, but you still have to get those boxes picked and they're garbage as fuck anyway.

But that just means it would be easier to make a silver based loot crate system if something similar is already in place.

Bottom line is most people have no self control for "gambling" type stuff and most will piss away all their money in no time.

[hello]

So the 500k loot crates will have Krodera Claidhmores?

[Gelston]

So the 500k loot crates will have Krodera Claidhmores?

No, they'll have Macgyver is banned from the internet for life certificates.

[Wrathbringer]

I'd like to see a fully automated riverboat casino with odds tipped toward the house and leave it open to the public 24/7.

[hello]

The thing is the vast bulk of these silvers might be in dormant accounts; not sure if Wyrom meant a trillion on active accounts..

[Methais]

The thing is the vast bulk of these silvers might be in dormant accounts; not sure if Wyrom meant a trillion on active accounts..

Possible but unlikely unless it's just someone taking a short break. Nobody who isn't retarded is going to quit and not at least cash out their silvers if they don't plan on returning.

[hello]

Well, once upon a time...

who
Lejhend snaps his fingers.
>There are 2028 active players online
Type WHO FULL to get a list of active players

Staff on duty:
Trinitle Vellina Justuce Cedrus
Melinor Flamingrose

Literally thousands and thousands of dormant accounts. Not all of them really knew about selling things for RL dollars, this website didn't exist nor were there a centralized area for buying and selling for RL dollars. Heck, was paypal even around in the mid nineties?

[LostRanger]

Possible but unlikely unless it's just someone taking a short break. Nobody who isn't retarded is going to quit and not at least cash out their silvers if they don't plan on returning.

Some people are just against the idea of real-money trade out of principle.

Some people didn't "quit" as much as "gradually lost interest, then eventually cancelled the account they hadn't logged into in over a month."

More on the topic, I think a mail/package system would not only be useful to players but it would also serve as an effective silver drain, especially if the costs are based in part on item value, weight, and distance being shipped. Sell something on the merchant channel to a buyer in another town and you don't feel like arranging a FWI proxy? Ship it. Need to transfer an item from your main on Teras to an alt in Ta'Illistim? Ship it.

It's actually one of the things I have a fairly fleshed out design doc for in case I become a GM and get the chance to work on it.

[Galactic]

Any chance the simu store could include silver at a 3/1 ratio .silver to dollars??

Assuming people who have coins don't use the store anyway

[SashaFierce]

Any chance the simu store could include silver at a 3/1 ratio .silver to dollars??

Assuming people who have coins don't use the store anyway


They're not going to do anything that reduces their revenue.

[hello]

They're not going to do anything that reduces their revenue.

How would his idea reduce revenue? It would be the exact opposite, they would get a shit ton of money and dilute the silvers already in circulation.

[SashaFierce]

How would his idea reduce revenue? It would be the exact opposite, they would get a shit ton of money and dilute the silvers already in circulation.

Silvers have no value to them, dollars do. It's pretty simple.

They're not going to allow us to spend silvers on anything they make money on.

[Stolis]

Seems like the game needs another big merchant to roll through Prime that's not just a Simucoin spending frenzy. Have some merchants with some rare work (enchanting, padding, etc) and have it be cheap for the little stuff and a lot more expensive for the upper end items.

[Eodus]

They're not going to do anything that reduces their revenue.

True.


Silvers have no value to them, dollars do.

Disagree that silvers have no value to them.


It's pretty simple. They're not going to allow us to spend silvers on anything they make money on.

Silvers hold no value to Simutronics, but rather, to the players who use them, some of whom happen to be employees of Simutronics, and in turn our patronage provides shareholder value in the form of subscription & Simucoin revenue. It's all a big circle. Silver has legitimate value. Same as a sandwich has value to a hungry person. Your proof is in the real dollars that change hands every week in direct relation to Elanthian silver (and sandwiches).

The problem we're seeing here is a complex one, as BLZrizz laid out quite eloquently... after vain attempts by myself and others to over-simplify the issue. As a business owner, I've learned to take simple pieces of complex problems, and solve them through compartmentalization. Rather than try to look at this as one big problem that needs to be solved, i.e. "the value of my silvers are dropping", why not consider it as several smaller problems and assign teams or individuals to resolve them?

The incentive for Simutronics to uphold the cash market for silver is imperative, although they may have other ideas. In my mind, there are a small handful of players who have personally benefited greatly from the process of silver production and distribution. Simu doesn't get a commission on those sales, so what do they care if the conversion rate drops steadily over time?

I like to think about everything in the form of incentives. Assuming that people (or groups of people) don't generally act in moral or otherwise extraordinary ways unless they have an incentive to do so. If we are to make the case for a stable (or increasing) silver market in a way that benefits Simutronics ($$$), consider this... supply and demand. More players, more demand. Assuming new players are not magically generating silver at a faster rate than those who came before them, the supply:demand ratio is improved in favor of silver. More players, more subscription & Simucoin revenue. More revenue, more GMs, more developers. Which means more RP opportunities, which means more opportunity for customer retention. More opportunities for constant silver drain (more subs, more folks spending silver). And so on.

More players would solve a lot of problems. And I don't want to hear a lot of pissing and moaning about how the only people who play this game, or would have interest in playing this game, are oldtimers / OG RP'ers. Fact is, indie gaming / nostalgia in general has discernible economic value and I'd like to see Simutronics capitalize on that by defining new markets like teen & young-adult developer types (huge market), growing strategic partnerships like the one they had with AOL (which, correct me if I'm wrong, is about the time frame when 99% of the current player base became aware of Gemstone, around '95-96), finding a way to remarket the game to the original player base in some economically-effective way (like, using BeenVerified to find their current addresses, be super stalker-like and spooky, but for the greater good, or whatever, just a simple postcard advertisement could turn into thousands in lifetime revenue)... really stepping up their marketing game on a macro level.

This is not a simple solution. But in my mind, is the best one. Step up that marketing game!

[2Sage]

Silvers hold no value to Simutronics, but rather, to the players who use them, some of whom happen to be employees of Simutronics, and in turn our patronage provides shareholder value in the form of subscription & Simucoin revenue. It's all a big circle.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAKOWcs8w54

[BLZrizz]

The only players left playing now are the hard-core, OG-lifer types who play 20 hours a day and the nostalgic once upon a time players who always loved the game and who are now grown up and have tons of disposable income.

But I definitely agree that the game has much more potential than I think Simu is giving it credit for. I think Simu had a marketing campaign go badly awhile back and they are now once-bitten twice shy when it comes to spending on marketing. But with social media marketing, I think a $2,000 social media buy spent in D&D forums, renaissance fair-related social media, and retro gaming sites would go a long way in terms of game exposure. Heck that youtube/tolaria academy vid probably cost nothing and they got subs out of it I think.

A 2k active nightly playerbase is not an unrealistic goal, and it would infuse a ton of energy into the game and address most of the economy's issues. More subs > more staff > more dev > the assets of existing players become more valuable, and we all have a much richer gaming experience. Everyone wins.

Heck, I want this game to succeed so badly I almost bought a twitter campaign for GS IV with my own money.

[SashaFierce]

Gm's are volunteers, I don't think more subs will necessarily translate into more DEV.

[ArchSenex]

What nobody has really gone into is why it's so important that silvers maintain value to real world dollars. Nobody who runs GS cares if people can continue to pay their rent by playing the game. They care whether or not the game is profitable, and understand that enjoyment of the game is what brings in and keeps customers. I keep hearing that it's super important for silvers to dollars to stay high, but no reason WHY other than that people who want to sell silvers want to make money.

Simutronics would much rather players who have disposable money to burn give it to them versus purchasing silvers, and Duskruin etc. do that, easily and handily. Wyrom won't and can't confirm the numbers, but based on what he did release, we can guess how much Duskruin pulls in. If Dark and Dangerous drained 20% of the BS created in April (Per Wyrom), assuming 300 sets were sold, that's 22.5 Million BS. Assuming 225 BS per run (which is probably a tad high, a lot of people run sewers) that's 100,000 "events" at 74 Cents per event (probably also a tad low) so $74,000 Dollars. Pretty sure the sets are higher, bs per run is lower, and cost per event is higher, which means Simu probably got upwards of $100,000 from that one run of Duskruin.

Duskruin allows players to pay money and they get items. That's no different than paying money for silvers and using those silvers to buy items, except that instead of a player ending up with the money, the company has it.

In order for this to be a bad move for Simu, you have to make the argument that more players will quit if silvers de-value than will be gained by what Simutronics can do with that additional revenue. Consider that the number of subs is going up, and it's not hard to argue that Reim, Duskruin, Delirium manner etc. are partially responsible. Those events exist because Simutronics has more resources to work with.

So yeah, if the silver market bottoming out costs them... 10% of their players? But having more content is causing a 20-30% increase, it's pretty easy to see which one they choose.

For an action to really have meaning, it has to result in players leaving the game, and currently, the events that have been released over the past couple years have increased player count, not reduced it.

[Fortybox]

What nobody has really gone into is why it's so important that silvers maintain value to real world dollars. Nobody who runs GS cares if people can continue to pay their rent by playing the game. They care whether or not the game is profitable, and understand that enjoyment of the game is what brings in and keeps customers. I keep hearing that it's super important for silvers to dollars to stay high, but no reason WHY other than that people who want to sell silvers want to make money.

Simutronics would much rather players who have disposable money to burn give it to them versus purchasing silvers, and Duskruin etc. do that, easily and handily. Wyrom won't and can't confirm the numbers, but based on what he did release, we can guess how much Duskruin pulls in. If Dark and Dangerous drained 20% of the BS created in April (Per Wyrom), assuming 300 sets were sold, that's 22.5 Million BS. Assuming 225 BS per run (which is probably a tad high, a lot of people run sewers) that's 100,000 "events" at 74 Cents per event (probably also a tad low) so $74,000 Dollars. Pretty sure the sets are higher, bs per run is lower, and cost per event is higher, which means Simu probably got upwards of $100,000 from that one run of Duskruin.

Duskruin allows players to pay money and they get items. That's no different than paying money for silvers and using those silvers to buy items, except that instead of a player ending up with the money, the company has it.

In order for this to be a bad move for Simu, you have to make the argument that more players will quit if silvers de-value than will be gained by what Simutronics can do with that additional revenue. Consider that the number of subs is going up, and it's not hard to argue that Reim, Duskruin, Delirium manner etc. are partially responsible. Those events exist because Simutronics has more resources to work with.

So yeah, if the silver market bottoming out costs them... 10% of their players? But having more content is causing a 20-30% increase, it's pretty easy to see which one they choose.

For an action to really have meaning, it has to result in players leaving the game, and currently, the events that have been released over the past couple years have increased player count, not reduced it.

Would be nice if Simu would do something to get rid of the for profit players. They're the problem.

[hello]

The only players left playing now are the hard-core, OG-lifer types who play 20 hours a day and the nostalgic once upon a time players who always loved the game and who are now grown up and have tons of disposable income.

But I definitely agree that the game has much more potential than I think Simu is giving it credit for. I think Simu had a marketing campaign go badly awhile back and they are now once-bitten twice shy when it comes to spending on marketing. But with social media marketing, I think a $2,000 social media buy spent in D&D forums, renaissance fair-related social media, and retro gaming sites would go a long way in terms of game exposure. Heck that youtube/tolaria academy vid probably cost nothing and they got subs out of it I think.

A 2k active nightly playerbase is not an unrealistic goal, and it would infuse a ton of energy into the game and address most of the economy's issues. More subs > more staff > more dev > the assets of existing players become more valuable, and we all have a much richer gaming experience. Everyone wins.

Heck, I want this game to succeed so badly I almost bought a twitter campaign for GS IV with my own money.

I totally disagree with this, I think there are quite a few people who try out the game but leave for whatever reason. I also believe there are quite a few who stay. Only Wyrom would know the exact figures. I don't think 2000 a night is realistic; 1000 is within the realm of possibility but the extreme end. I think 700~800 a night is realistic and should be the aim.

From my calculations, there are very roughly 2000 active accounts that are subbed in some form or another or close to it. I think Gemstone alone does around $1~1.2 million in revenue, DragonRealms about $700,000~$800,000.

Profits? Who knows? But let's just have fun with this... GMs make how much per month? Let's say conservatively 500 bucks (it varies by the workload or position etc. but let's say on average); roughly 6k a year. There are what? 40 or so active GMs? maybe less. That's about -$240k. Let's say it's -$160k for Dragonrealms. Roughly, -400k on the GMs alone for both games.

For the PMs I have no idea. Saying both the PMs make the same (probably not); we'll put the number at -80k per PM which turns out to be -160k for both games. On site staff? Probably 15 or so? maybe... lets say -700k for everyone. Benefits for everyone? 100k.

As for equipment,upkeep, office supplies, rent, and everything else? Well, let's say another -40k.

So, total company profits before taxes $600k a year (high side)? Or I could be WAY off, who knows?

[SashaFierce]

What nobody has really gone into is why it's so important that silvers maintain value to real world dollars.

I covered that answer, it's to prevent hyper-inflation of existing items.

Let's say you bought silvers to purchase an item in game, the silver cost was 30 million, and silvers were $8 per at the time. Meaning you invested $240 into your item. When you go to sell that item, you're probably going to want somewhere around $240 worth of value for it. If silvers drop to $3 per million, that means you'll need to get 80m to break even. Or you can just take a huge loss.

I'm not sure about you, but I don't want all of my items to tank in value. The more silvers fall, the less and less everyone's items are worth.

This is less about protecting the silver sellers, and more about protecting the value of your current equipment.

[ArchSenex]

I covered that answer, it's to prevent hyper-inflation of existing items.

Let's say you bought silvers to purchase an item in game, the silver cost was 30 million, and silvers were $8 per at the time. Meaning you invested $240 into your item. When you go to sell that item, you're probably going to want somewhere around $240 worth of value for it. If silvers drop to $3 per million, that means you'll need to get 80m to break even. Or you can just take a huge loss.

I'm not sure about you, but I don't want all of my items to tank in value. The more silvers fall, the less and less everyone's items are worth.

This is less about protecting the silver sellers, and more about protecting the value of your current equipment.

You're starting with the assumption that the person bought silvers, and that the person that bought silvers only sees their item in terms of its current USD value. You're also assuming that USING the item has no value, and the item itself is also intrinsically worthless to the person. And again, you're saying the more silvers fall, the less and less everyone's items are worth.... in USD. They're still just as usable in terms of their game effects.

That's how a speculator thinks. When a person buys an item solely to know how much they're going to get for it when they sell it, then yes, they care about the monetary value. When somebody buys an item for the intention of using it, then they care far less about its monetary value over time.

I couldn't care less how many dollars I could get for my items, I bought them because I want them and plan to use them.

[Methais]

Simu's biggest problem is its ridiculous pricing and is by far the reason I hear the most from people who used to play not coming back. Simu would apparently rather have less accounts paying more money than more accounts paying less money.

They should make the game a flat $20 for Premium, eliminate Basic altogether, and drop Plat to $30.

A lot of people will probably come back that wouldn't have before because it's Premium or nothing for a lot of people for various reasons, few if any Basic subscribers will have a problem with upgrading to Premium for $5 more than they're already paying vs. $25, and F2P are going to have a much easier time swallowing $20 than $40 for a text game in the year 2017, a lot of which might also be Premium or nothing types. And some people won't pay $40 a month for a text game just on principle.

And that's before factoring in more MA'ers and the extra ticket sales they'd be getting for pay events. One good event could possibly make up the subscription price difference vs. current prices for the whole year and then some, and every event after that for the year would be pure gains over what they're pulling in today.

I would assume they know this already. They just need to grow the balls to do it.

[BLZrizz]

I would assume they know this already. They just need to grow the balls to do it.

I think it's a sound plan, but risky as all hell. There's no going back once you permanently make it free.

According to page 57 Stillfront annual report(http://www.stillfront.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Stillfront-Annual-Report-2016.pdf), Simu's revenue for 2016 was 14,274,000 Swiss Kronor or roughly $1,637,000. They've likely done the calculations and figure that the additional population gain would not make up for the decreased revenue.

[Methais]

What nobody has really gone into is why it's so important that silvers maintain value to real world dollars. Nobody who runs GS cares if people can continue to pay their rent by playing the game. They care whether or not the game is profitable, and understand that enjoyment of the game is what brings in and keeps customers. I keep hearing that it's super important for silvers to dollars to stay high, but no reason WHY other than that people who want to sell silvers want to make money.

A lot of those high disposable income people don't have time to earn high amounts of silvers or BS or whatever, so they buy them. If prices aren't worth selling for, those people still won't have time to earn high amounts of silvers or BS.

Simu doesn't currently have a way to sell time that I'm aware of. Players do.

[SashaFierce]

You're starting with the assumption that the person bought silvers, and that the person that bought silvers only sees their item in terms of its current USD value. You're also assuming that USING the item has no value, and the item itself is also intrinsically worthless to the person. And again, you're saying the more silvers fall, the less and less everyone's items are worth.... in USD. They're still just as usable in terms of their game effects.

That's how a speculator thinks. When a person buys an item solely to know how much they're going to get for it when they sell it, then yes, they care about the monetary value. When somebody buys an item for the intention of using it, then they care far less about its monetary value over time.

I couldn't care less how many dollars I could get for my items, I bought them because I want them and plan to use them.

Lots of people have, and do, buy silvers to get nice items.

They also buy booklets for DR using silvers, so they can get items. Those books cost $$$, so expect book prices to increase as silvers drop.

Whether you like it or not, a lot of the exchanges in game take into account the price of silvers, those prices will adjust accordingly.

[Methais]

I think it's a sound plan, but risky as all hell. There's no going back once you permanently make it free.

It's not making it free. F2P will still be the same. Current basic subscribers will be paying more and Premium/Plat will be paying less.


According to page 57 Stillfront annual report(http://www.stillfront.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Stillfront-Annual-Report-2016.pdf), Simu's revenue for 2016 was 14,274,000 Swiss Kronor or roughly $1,637,000. They've likely done the calculations and figure that the additional population gain would not make up for the decreased revenue.

It's possible. It's also possible they never even put it on the table to run numbers on. I'm not sure how they'd gauge how many additional pay event sales they'd be getting either, but I think a flat $20 a month would result in an overall gain.

[hello]

Simu doesn't currently have a way to sell time that I'm aware of. Players do.

Simu's selling time already, through pay events like Duskruin or Coraesine Fields. Want a 6x HCP armor, buy some books and grind for a few hours, voila 20 mil worth of armor.

[hello]

It's not making it free. F2P will still be the same. Current basic subscribers will be paying more and Premium/Plat will be paying less.



It's possible. It's also possible they never even put it on the table to run numbers on. I'm not sure how they'd gauge how many additional pay event sales they'd be getting either, but I think a flat $20 a month would result in an overall gain.

So, the "sub" now is 20 bucks a month. Yeahhh, that ain't gonna work. The only thing that does is give people who are premium a massive discount and shifting the loss to basic subbers (if they take that offer and pony up the extra 5).

[Wyrom]

Let's back it up a bit, again, if the idea is to come up with actual silver drains that would drain the silver needed to make a significant impact on the wealth in game, we have to do three things.

It needs to be sustainable and constant.
It needs to drain roughly 2 billion silver a month.
It cannot be permanent (one and done).

There are a lot of things that solve this, but almost everything is tedium.

[hello]

Let's back it up a bit, again, if the idea is to come up with actual silver drains that would drain the silver needed to make a significant impact on the wealth in game, we have to do three things.

It needs to be sustainable and constant.
It needs to drain roughly 2 billion silver a month.
It cannot be permanent (one and done).

There are a lot of things that solve this, but almost everything is tedium.

Breakage Wyrom... you know you want to.

[Viekn]

Let's back it up a bit, again, if the idea is to come up with actual silver drains that would drain the silver needed to make a significant impact on the wealth in game, we have to do three things.

It needs to be sustainable and constant.
It needs to drain roughly 2 billion silver a month.
It cannot be permanent (one and done).

There are a lot of things that solve this, but almost everything is tedium.

Don't 1 and 3 contradict each other? Or am I not understanding that correctly?

[hello]

Don't 1 and 3 contradict each other? Or am I not understanding that correctly?

Think he meant it can't be one and done; gotta be cyclical, since the second one says "2 billion silver a month".

[SashaFierce]

Let's back it up a bit, again, if the idea is to come up with actual silver drains that would drain the silver needed to make a significant impact on the wealth in game, we have to do three things.

It needs to be sustainable and constant.
It needs to drain roughly 2 billion silver a month.
It cannot be permanent (one and done).

There are a lot of things that solve this, but almost everything is tedium.

I don't think I understand what you're saying here as #1 and #3 conflict. What would be sustainable and constant, without being permanent?


I also don't agree that it has to be one and done, by providing always-available on-demand silver drains, it provides an outlet for silvers to be drained.
Are you saying that none of the suggestions so far would help to reduce the amount of silvers?

[Wyrom]

The only players left playing now are the hard-core, OG-lifer types who play 20 hours a day and the nostalgic once upon a time players who always loved the game and who are now grown up and have tons of disposable income.

But I definitely agree that the game has much more potential than I think Simu is giving it credit for. I think Simu had a marketing campaign go badly awhile back and they are now once-bitten twice shy when it comes to spending on marketing. But with social media marketing, I think a $2,000 social media buy spent in D&D forums, renaissance fair-related social media, and retro gaming sites would go a long way in terms of game exposure. Heck that youtube/tolaria academy vid probably cost nothing and they got subs out of it I think.

A 2k active nightly playerbase is not an unrealistic goal, and it would infuse a ton of energy into the game and address most of the economy's issues. More subs > more staff > more dev > the assets of existing players become more valuable, and we all have a much richer gaming experience. Everyone wins.

Heck, I want this game to succeed so badly I almost bought a twitter campaign for GS IV with my own money.

This is largely false information.

GemStone IV just surpassed our subscription totals from 2011. This does not include F2P, which make up about 10% of the active playerbase. The game has been growing. We've grown the game 14% in the last 6 months. The power players really don't make up much of the player base these days. The difference that you're seeing is that people are much older now and have more to do, so they play a lot less than they did in the 90s. Another thing to keep in mind is the 2000+ numbers people remember are largely false. Yes, we did hit the cap from time to time, but we actually sat around 1000. Prior to AOL going unlimited, numbers were lower than they are today.


Simu's biggest problem is its ridiculous pricing and is by far the reason I hear the most from people who used to play not coming back. Simu would apparently rather have less accounts paying more money than more accounts paying less money.

They should make the game a flat $20 for Premium, eliminate Basic altogether, and drop Plat to $30.

A lot of people will probably come back that wouldn't have before because it's Premium or nothing for a lot of people for various reasons, few if any Basic subscribers will have a problem with upgrading to Premium for $5 more than they're already paying vs. $25, and F2P are going to have a much easier time swallowing $20 than $40 for a text game in the year 2017, a lot of which might also be Premium or nothing types. And some people won't pay $40 a month for a text game just on principle.

And that's before factoring in more MA'ers and the extra ticket sales they'd be getting for pay events. One good event could possibly make up the subscription price difference vs. current prices for the whole year and then some, and every event after that for the year would be pure gains over what they're pulling in today.

I would assume they know this already. They just need to grow the balls to do it.

The argument to drop prices is one I see very clearly now. Dropping the prices 40% would mean 40% less revenue. Barrier to entry is not Premium subscription, or even Basic's $15. It's a much deeper rooted issue.

[Wyrom]

Don't 1 and 3 contradict each other? Or am I not understanding that correctly?

It needs to be sustainable for the game to have it, and it needs to be constantly available. It cannot be a permanent feature (like permanent padding, permanent bless, permanent bane). One and done. You buy it once, you never need it again.

[hello]

All the suggestions so far were great. He even admitted though, that all the solutions would require "tedium"..which is code for it'll be a negative in some form or another. Like breakage or rent fees or whatever.

[Gelston]

ANother thing to keep in mind is the 2000+ numbers people remember are largely false. Yes, we did hit the cap from time to time, but we actually sat around 1000. Prior to AOL going unlimited, numbers were lower than they are today.


This is about right. While I do remember 2000 at times, I mostly recall around 1200 people at most times.

[neimanz1]

Let's back it up a bit, again, if the idea is to come up with actual silver drains that would drain the silver needed to make a significant impact on the wealth in game, we have to do three things.

It needs to be sustainable and constant.
It needs to drain roughly 2 billion silver a month.
It cannot be permanent (one and done).

There are a lot of things that solve this, but almost everything is tedium.

we should have lotto and scratch cards in gs!

prize could be epic items and stuff like that

[hello]

It needs to be sustainable for the game to have it, and it needs to be constantly available. It cannot be a permanent feature (like permanent padding, permanent bless, permanent bane). One and done. You buy it once, you never need it again.

Hm, interesting. Didn't expect that. Why not just temporary padding,weighting,flares etc. utilizing existing weapon and armor shops? Make it a special order with a few hours wait time etc.

[Wyrom]

we should have lotto and scratch cards in gs!

prize could be epic items and stuff like that

If the scratch cards and lotto were 60 million a piece, sure.

[Gizmo]

we should have lotto and scratch cards in gs!

prize could be epic items and stuff like that

Lotto cards exist! Just not for epic prizes

[Wyrom]

Hm, interesting. Didn't expect that. Why not just temporary padding,weighting,flares etc. utilizing existing weapon and armor shops? Make it a special order with a few hours wait time etc.

Because players don't buy that. We sell that often. Random loot in game creates masterfully padded full plate daily that will late 1.5 years, and people just sell it to the pawn for 35k.

[SashaFierce]

It needs to be sustainable for the game to have it, and it needs to be constantly available. It cannot be a permanent feature (like permanent padding, permanent bless, permanent bane). One and done. You buy it once, you never need it again.

It would be somewhat time consuming, but if you would comment on some of the suggestions here about why it may not work, it would be appreciated to see how we can modify our suggestions.

L/D for 1m per service.

NPC bard loresong for 50k per song.

NPC wizard enchants for ungodly amounts.

Changing item materials for high silver costs.

Changing armor SG for high silver costs.

Changing weapon base for high silver costs.

Enhancive recharging for silvers.

NPC Guild Partners for silvers.

Loot crates for silvers.


Just a quick list from scrolling through.

[hello]

And 2000+ at a time definitely existed, but those were high numbers. Here is a log of one such instance:

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?50504-Found-some-old-Gemstone-logs-from-1997

[Wyrom]

It would be somewhat time consuming, but if you would comment on some of the suggestions here about why it may not work, it would be appreciated to see how we can modify our suggestions.

L/D for 1m per service.

NPC bard loresong for 50k per song.

NPC wizard enchants for ungodly amounts.

Changing item materials for high silver costs.

Changing armor SG for high silver costs.

Changing weapon base for high silver costs.

Enhancive recharging for silvers.

NPC Guild Partners for silvers.

Loot crates for silvers.


Just a quick list from scrolling through.

That's mostly one and done stuff. So it fails at number 3. No one is paying 1 mil for deepenings. No one is paying 100k for lightenings. You're asking for players to pay 1000 to 10000 times the amounts they already do for some of these things. Enhancive recharging for silver does zilch in terms of drains. You think we'd only offer it once a year if it did a damn? That's a benefit to players, and nothing more.

[neimanz1]

If the scratch cards and lotto were 60 million a piece, sure.

yea but it will still be a pretty big drain , just look at how many raffle tickets sold for undead bane cert at duskruin.

[Wyrom]

yea but it will still be a pretty big drain , just look at how many raffle tickets sold for undead bane cert at duskruin.

We barely made what the service would have cost to a player. That's not a very good example, heh.

[BLZrizz]

GemStone IV just surpassed our subscription totals from 2011. This does not include F2P, which make up about 10% of the active playerbase. The game has been growing. We've grown the game 14% in the last 6 months.

Most of my post was opinion, but it's hard see growth reflected in the game as the population is still very top-heavy.

When you assess subscription growth, do you control for new accounts opened by existing account owners vs accounts opened by customers with no existing relationship to Simu? And do you exclude the former from your assessment of the game's growth numbers? If you don't, then I don't think that measurement would be particularly accurate, at least in terms of measuring growth in the active player base.

[hello]

Because players don't buy that. We sell that often. Random loot in game creates masterfully padded full plate daily that will late 1.5 years, and people just sell it to the pawn for 35k.

Whaa? you serious? I would value temp masterfully padded 0x full plate around 200k. I would most definitely buy a temp masterful pad on my 5x armor if it's cyclical (I can go back and get it again and again).

[SashaFierce]

That's mostly one and done stuff. So it fails at number 3. No one is paying 1 mil for deepenings. No one is paying 100k for lightenings. You're asking for players to pay 1000 to 10000 times the amounts they already do for some of these things. Enhancive recharging for silver does zilch in terms of drains. You think we'd only offer it once a year if it did a damn? That's a benefit to players, and nothing more.

People do buy lighten/deepen for a mil. At Duskruin epic lighten was offered for 100kBS per pound which equals about 100k per pound. People with too many silvers and no interest in chasing merchants would pay a fee for the service. If you think 1m is too high, make it 500k per service.

I envision the enchanting costs to scale based on the properties of the item, they would be extremely high, but people would pay it. Especially if the item isn't something a player character could enchant. If you wanted to go from 6x HCP to 7x HCP it would cost 3400 premium points, let's say 34m to make it easy. Make it available for 60m in game. People pay stupid prices to better their gear.

Make the recharge for silvers cost 100 silvers per instead of 16 silvers per. Change the cost to make it a worthwhile drain.

[Wyrom]

Again, not shooting down ideas. I'm trying to show how small scale and dead ended these drain ideas are. Some of you would pay a 100 mil for something or 500 mil for something else. But those numbers aren't anything in terms of a drain. Pay events like Ebon Gate also don't drain silver. More silver is generated in the month of October than EG typically drains from the game.

We have to think large scale and it needs to always be available, that's why I said sustainable and constant. Anyone needs to be able to get the service at any point. It can't be a manual GM session thing. It can't be something that would destroy the balance of the game.

The real answers are with things most people don't want in the game anymore.

[SashaFierce]

The real answers are with things most people don't want in the game anymore.

Besides breakage, what would that be?


Also, even if it's small scale, having any sort of silver drain is better than none, at least IMO. You can't fix the problem at all if you don't begin to address it in some way, even if it starts small.

[hello]

BTW, congrats Wyrom on your success. Hearing that we're doing better in subs and pop than 2011 or even before gives a nice warm feeling that the game may be around for decades to come. Rock on!

Oculus Rift Gemstone; I see the future!

[Wyrom]

Most of my post was opinion, but it's hard see growth reflected in the game as the population is still very top-heavy.

When you assess subscription growth, do you control for new accounts opened by existing account owners vs accounts opened by customers with no existing relationship to Simu? And do you exclude the former from your assessment of the game's growth numbers? If you don't, then I don't think that measurement would be particularly accurate, at least in terms of measuring growth in the active player base.

Yes, but not in the exact ways you're saying. If you think current players are opening new paid subscriptions on the regular, I'll be happy to let you know that's not the case. I measure new customers, not just new accounts.

[hello]

Again, not shooting down ideas. I'm trying to show how small scale and dead ended these drain ideas are. Some of you would pay a 100 mil for something or 500 mil for something else. But those numbers aren't anything in terms of a drain. Pay events like Ebon Gate also don't drain silver. More silver is generated in the month of October than EG typically drains from the game.

We have to think large scale and it needs to always be available, that's why I said sustainable and constant. Anyone needs to be able to get the service at any point. It can't be a manual GM session thing. It can't be something that would destroy the balance of the game.

The real answers are with things most people don't want in the game anymore.

Wow, if we're talking that scale and size. It's breakage; not joking around this time either. It's just breakage or something on that level.

[BLZrizz]

Yes, but not in the exact ways you're saying. If you think current players are opening new paid subscriptions on the regular, I'll be happy to let you know that's not the case. I measure new customers, not just new accounts.

I'm encouraged by that. Any plans for a more sustained marketing campaign? I thought the tolaria thing was good start but I haven't seen much of a follow on push. As a few of us discussed earlier, a larger population addresses some of the economic concerns.

[Stolis]

What if you had an annual buy Simucoins with silver event? Take out the locker expansion items or make them super expensive? No it's not 2b a month, but if it knocked out billions from the economy, wouldn't that be better than nothing at all?

Yes you might have people buying a few fixstats or fixskills if super rich, but if someone wants to do it now, they just give someone 4/15-16m silver and get one anyway. Why not give them the same thing they're already going to get but Simu benefit from it instead?

[hello]

Also, why is draining silvers such a big deal? I mean must we have some sort of silver drain at all? Never understood why this is needed..

[Wyrom]

Besides breakage, what would that be?

*Repair costs
**Sort of breakage, but nothing truly breaks, just loses power until repaired
*Tedium to use special properties on items
**Require oils to treat padding
**Require whetstones to treat weighting
**Without upkeep, loss of properties
*Gate fees to enter towns
**More than 10 or 100 silver, more costly during invasions/night
*Road fees to travel
**Highwayman that require fees
**Villages that require fees to pass through
*Price increases on current travel costs
**Glaesan Star
**Smuggler's Cutter
**Chronomage orbs
**Vaalor ferryboat
**Blind ferryman
**Mine carts
*Costs to level up
**Like CHECK IN once was, but in a bigger way
*Costs to train skills
**How to unlock skills, requires complete retooling of the game
*Guild costs that are more meaningful
*Real fines and justice ramifications
*Taxes on everything
*Added artisan guild costs
** The need for style materials
** Added designs that add flavor

And that's off the top of my head. You guys won't want ANY of that.

[Wyrom]

I'm encouraged by that. Any plans for a more sustained marketing campaign? I thought the tolaria thing was good start but I haven't seen much of a follow on push. As a few of us discussed earlier, a larger population addresses some of the economic concerns.

There is a lot of that going on right now. Most of it is not very visible to current players.

[hello]

*Repair costs
**Sort of breakage, but nothing truly breaks, just loses power until repaired
*Tedium to use special properties on items
**Require oils to treat padding
**Require whetstones to treat weighting
**Without upkeep, loss of properties
*Gate fees to enter towns
**More than 10 or 100 silver, more costly during invasions/night
*Road fees to travel
**Highwayman that require fees
**Villages that require fees to pass through
*Price increases on current travel costs
**Glaesan Star
**Smuggler's Cutter
**Chronomage orbs
**Vaalor ferryboat
**Blind ferryman
**Mine carts
*Costs to level up
**Like CHECK IN once was, but in a bigger way
*Costs to train skills
**How to unlock skills, requires complete retooling of the game
*Guild costs that are more meaningful
*Real fines and justice ramifications
*Taxes on everything
*Added artisan guild costs
** The need for style materials
** Added designs that add flavor

And that's off the top of my head. You guys won't want ANY of that.

I do. Seriously. Think that adds a ton of depth to the game.

If I wanted a game with +X MoAr Powah! I would just fire up Skyrim or whatever.

[hello]

And would someone tell me why the forum colors went all dark mode?

[Viekn]

And that's off the top of my head. You guys won't want ANY of that.

I don't personally have a problem with almost any of that. My only argument on the travel methods costing more would be that I don't want those methods to take as long as they do. Minecarts, ferry rides etc. shouldn't take over 1 minute (give or take) if I'm paying.

[Mogonis]

Oh my god, I wanna be a toll-collecting highwayman.

[SashaFierce]

*Repair costs
**Sort of breakage, but nothing truly breaks, just loses power until repaired
*Tedium to use special properties on items
**Require oils to treat padding
**Require whetstones to treat weighting
**Without upkeep, loss of properties
Not thrilled about, but I could probably adjust.

*Gate fees to enter towns
**More than 10 or 100 silver, more costly during invasions/night
*Road fees to travel
**Highwayman that require fees
**Villages that require fees to pass through
Too annoying to consider.


*Price increases on current travel costs
**Glaesan Star
**Smuggler's Cutter
**Chronomage orbs
**Vaalor ferryboat
**Blind ferryman
**Mine carts
Not a big deal, if it means the travel time were reduced, sure I'll pay a higher fee.

*Costs to level up
**Like CHECK IN once was, but in a bigger way
Okay

*Costs to train skills
No thanks

**How to unlock skills, requires complete retooling of the game

*Guild costs that are more meaningful
If it means better/more guild abilities, maybe

*Real fines and justice ramifications
*Taxes on everything
*Added artisan guild costs
** The need for style materials
** Added designs that add flavor

And that's off the top of my head. You guys won't want ANY of that.

A lot of those suck, and they don't provide any benefit to players.

I wouldn't like the repair costs on gear, but I wouldn't be completely against it if the repair time were instant and not require days of waiting to restore the item. And the costs were reasonable.

A lot of those seem very small scale though, small silver drains.

[Eodus]

Let's back it up a bit, again, if the idea is to come up with actual silver drains that would drain the silver needed to make a significant impact on the wealth in game, we have to do three things.

It needs to be sustainable and constant.
It needs to drain roughly 2 billion silver a month.
It cannot be permanent (one and done).

There are a lot of things that solve this, but almost everything is tedium.

Well, let's set the stage for an actual solution.

1) What's off the table?
2) You're not going to solve this with one singular catch-all solution.

I'd say a good start would be to stop the bleeding by slowing the introduction of silver into the game and maybe even capping the maximum amount of silver a single account can produce in a given period of time. Fail to do this, and you're just sloshing water out of a sinking boat. Economically speaking.

Any solution you present would need to fill the pain points / deepest desires of your most desirable target profile, and make them keep coming back for more. I for one get quite a rush when an invasion hits, or when some large group activity is going down. If you introduced a pay-for-invasion pool for each town... something like 50m for [insert GM-sponsored activity here], Idunno, haven't really clearly thought that one out. Feels like the beginning of a thread of an idea.

For a guy like me, something like this would be like straight-up crack.

[Stolis]

You are correct, a lot of those things with additional costs would suck. Can't imagine being a low-mid player and not having enough money in the bank because I'm in a hunting area that's poor and you can't level up.

[ArchSenex]

When throwing out ideas, remember that to hit 2 billion, if there's 5,000 active accounts, your individual monthly contribution is a mere 400,000.

[SashaFierce]

I think the most interesting part for me so far, is that none of the suggestions from you (Wyrom) gave us anything, you just charge us for what we currently have or can do.

All of our suggestions provided an outlet for us to spend silvers, where we can gain something for it.

Can you point us in the direction of things we could ask for, that would benefit us, while spending our silvers?

[Mogonis]

I think the most interesting part for me so far, is that none of the suggestions from you (Wyrom) gave us anything, you just charge us for what we currently have or can do.

All of our suggestions provided an outlet for us to spend silvers, where we can gain something for it.

Can you point us in the direction of things we could ask for, that would benefit us, while spending our silvers?
How about spending it on stuff that gets you out of the house?

[Wyrom]

I think the most interesting part for me so far, is that none of the suggestions from you (Wyrom) gave us anything, you just charge us for what we currently have or can do.

All of our suggestions provided an outlet for us to spend silvers, where we can gain something for it.

Can you point us in the direction of things we could ask for, that would benefit us, while spending our silvers?

They'd have to be temporary benefits. I've already mentioned that no one buys into them currently.

[SashaFierce]

They'd have to be temporary benefits. I've already mentioned that no one buys into them currently.

Why do they have to be temporary?

What is the harm in offering permanent enhancements? Just make them expensive.


Take the 6x-7x HCP enchant above, it's offered via premium points. Why not offer it via silvers for double the cost?

[bunnymustdie]

If it's temporary enhancements, why not just buffs?

I regularly see people whining on lnet asking for a wizard spell up, offering anywhere from 15k to 25k for one. Sometimes the same people would continue asking for hours, which seem to indicate no one bothered to respond to their request. An NPC wizard that offers buffs for a set silver price of maybe 30k per spell up might help? When the buffs run out the same people would probably run back to the wizards for more.

Not something I would use and would probably mess with game balance, but just tossing an idea out there.

[Ardwen]

They need to be temporary because if they are one and done the do nothing to drain the silver, thats the whole point.

I actually don't mind most of those possible charges, highwaymen would be amusing, especially if you sometimes got the chance to fight them instead of paying them, paying to train is actually a great idea, I mean we train and re-train regularly, even if its a few hundred silvers a skill rank it'd add up fairly fast, especially in May. Never did understand why there were no longer or never were gate taxes, that used to be fairly common in the old days, someone had to pay to upkeep the roads and walls.

Item upkeep while serious drudgery would certainly work as long as it was balanced fairly.

The one thing I think would be miserable was charging more for guild work, alchemy sucks without paying to do it.

[Fallen]

Because players don't buy that. We sell that often. Random loot in game creates masterfully padded full plate daily that will late 1.5 years, and people just sell it to the pawn for 35k.

People want it on THEIR gear, not 1-4x, non-lightened, unaltered armor.

[Wyrom]

Why do they have to be temporary?

What is the harm in offering permanent enhancements? Just make them expensive.


Take the 6x-7x HCP enchant above, it's offered via premium points. Why not offer it via silvers for double the cost?

So let's say you get your 6x HCP to 10x HCP... You're now done, at a cost of what... That's about 16,000 Premium Points. At double/triple the current pricing of that, it's about 250mil to 375mil. Let's assume you do buy in at 333mil. You're no longer buying in and draining. That's it. So you solved ~16.7% of the problem for a single month. And the 2 bil number is a monthly sustain. That doesn't touch current wealth.

Let's say 200 players do that. We've successfully drained 66.6bil. That's not really sustainable, and 200 people wouldn't value 10x HCP at (base) + 333mil. It's not fusion, ithzir, voln, or anything. Just Dark and Dangerous 6x HCP armor.

[Fallen]

Sounds like we need to come at it from both ends, as others have mentioned. Less silver coming into the game, more silver going out. Look at the top earners and curtail as necessary. There has already been some instances of this with the trading caps.

I'm all for temporary buffs to both equipment and our characters. Weighting, padding, enchants, ensorcell, spellups, experience modifiers, enhancive stat/skill potions, resist damage/elements potions, etc. Price it accordingly and let players decide whether to save up for permanent gear or temporarily enhance their own.

And yeah, we'd likely need to introduce some upkeep costs. It'd take a fair bit of planning and some growing pains, but if done right it could actually enhance one's experience. Players could then try to earn exemptions to all these fees as services and special rewards.

How about a new society that has awesome powers but comes with a lot of continual silver costs? It could stack on top of the existing societies, but slowly (or not so slowly) bleed you dry if you wanted to use it all the time.

Gambling sounds like a solid idea. People are addicts. As long as it's in the House's favor, why not? Also, the prizes don't have to always be silver returned. Any of the above temp buffs would be pleasing to most players.

[Galactic]

So let's say you get your 6x HCP to 10x HCP... You're now done, at a cost of what... That's about 16,000 Premium Points. At double/triple the current pricing of that, it's about 250mil to 375mil. Let's assume you do buy in at 333mil. You're no longer buying in and draining. That's it. So you solved ~16.7% of the problem for a single month. And the 2 bil number is a monthly sustain. That doesn't touch current wealth.

Let's say 200 players do that. We've successfully drained 66.6bil. That's not really sustainable, and 200 people wouldn't value 10x HCP at (base) + 333mil. It's not fusion, ithzir, voln, or anything. Just Dark and Dangerous 6x HCP armor.

Gemstone V

Cough

[Winter]

I know Larton soaks up ALOT of silvers, I used to pop all my boxes but now use the smith because it's so much faster. There really should be a town Bard that will identify your items for a price, the fusion shaman already provides a basic version of this.

[SashaFierce]

They need to be temporary because if they are one and done the do nothing to drain the silver, thats the whole point.

I actually don't mind most of those possible charges, highwaymen would be amusing, especially if you sometimes got the chance to fight them instead of paying them, paying to train is actually a great idea, I mean we train and re-train regularly, even if its a few hundred silvers a skill rank it'd add up fairly fast, especially in May. Never did understand why there were no longer or never were gate taxes, that used to be fairly common in the old days, someone had to pay to upkeep the roads and walls.

Item upkeep while serious drudgery would certainly work as long as it was balanced fairly.

The one thing I think would be miserable was charging more for guild work, alchemy sucks without paying to do it.


I don't understand why you think that someone spending 70m to enchant an item from 6x-7x wouldn't drain silver. The cost is 70m, 70m is removed. Am I missing something?



So let's say you get your 6x HCP to 10x HCP... You're now done, at a cost of what... That's about 16,000 Premium Points. At double/triple the current pricing of that, it's about 250mil to 375mil. Let's assume you do buy in at 333mil. You're no longer buying in and draining. That's it. So you solved ~16.7% of the problem for a single month. And the 2 bil number is a monthly sustain. That doesn't touch current wealth.

Let's say 200 players do that. We've successfully drained 66.6bil. That's not really sustainable, and 200 people wouldn't value 10x HCP at (base) + 333mil. It's not fusion, ithzir, voln, or anything. Just Dark and Dangerous 6x HCP armor.


I'm not looking for a one solution fixes all problems thing. It would have to be part of a package of offerings that helps to reduce silver.

I would also argue that the armor wouldn't be done, you could still increase padding, or add additional scripts. I don't have a matrix of costs per services, but I'm sure something could be designed to account for costs & abilities.

You guys also have a habit of coming out with new types of gear, so people start new projects. I think it's short-sighted to believe that completed armor would happen quickly except in rare situations for the very wealthy. Even then, it's an expensive buy-in, so I don't have a problem with that.

You're already offering this type of thing through duskruin, you're just not allowing us to spend silvers to do it.

6x HCP - 7x HCP - 25k BS
7x - 8x - 100k
8x - 9x - 100k
9x - 10x - 100k

325k BS = 325m.

I'm fairly certain at least one person has spent this amount of money working on their armor, taking it to 10x/40 points of padding via duskruin. They most likely spent silvers to purchase BS from other players to do so.


Is it more a factor that allowing us to do these sorts of things via direct silvers cuts into the potential profit made via events? Is that why silvers are quickly turning into something of little value?

I don't think any of us really predicted that the invention of alt-currency was going to mean that our silvers no longer have any real purchase power.

I guess I understand now why it would be a problem (For Simu) if we could purchase more things for silvers, it would mean that we no longer have the requirement of participating in a cash event to obtain what we desire.

[Ardwen]

Because a one time cost will make ZERO difference in the long term wealth in the game, how hard is that to understand? You need on going regular charges to make any kind of dent. I believe Wyrom said 2 billion silvers a month is about what we'd need to spend to make a dent, are you going to spend 70m a month on enchants?

[SashaFierce]

Because a one time cost will make ZERO difference in the long term wealth in the game, how hard is that to understand? You need on going regular charges to make any kind of dent. I believe Wyrom said 2 billion silvers a month is about what we'd need to spend to make a dent, are you going to spend 70m a month on enchants?

I don't think it's a one solution fixes all scenario, but I edited my last post to state that.

I guess I understand now why we won't be allowed to purchase anything of real substance via silvers, as it would cut into the profits of events too much.

Perhaps the first step in addressing the economy is to start finding ways to reduce that 2b a month generation.

[Wyrom]

Two billion silver is an arbitrary number in this case. I was giving you all a focus.

[Fallen]

Perhaps the first step in addressing the economy is to start finding ways to reduce that 2b a month generation.

Definitely seems like a big step. I imagine they could implement changes which wouldn't affect the vast majority of active players.

[Neveragain]

"I don't think the only fix is by stopping loot drops." Then you will always have a broken economy, even worse now that automation is so easily obtained.

"And the purpose wouldn't be to prop up the real life cash value of silvers." I call bullshit on this.

"The cash market is part of the game, whether you like it or not. Wyrom used to participate in it, so I'm sure he's not exactly against it." Not relevant considering the trillion silvers floating around, you could divide that among 1000 accounts and they would all receive a billion silvers.

"You may not like it, but it's only going to get worse unless some kind of effort is taken to find a need for silvers." As Wyrom has mentioned, what it would take to drain those silvers would cause mass hysteria.

If there was an in game auction house, this could be solved.

[Ardwen]

It has nothing to do with their events, large numbers of people actually make profits running thos events, people pay quite well for tickets after all, the large majority of the people running hte arena for instance weren't getting tickets for their own use.

[BLZrizz]

Can you give us data on the silver earning distribution? (e.g. the top 10 earners generate 60% of all silver generated in a particular week)

Based on the distribution, a progressive system may work. Players who generate more silvers get pushed into higher "tax" brackets so they pay more of every silver they make after a certain amount (single day generation of over 100k for example). I think most can agree that silver farmers (and those who use the game to fund their lives) are not part of the solution, at the very least. And the concept of diminishing returns seems to apply to every aspect of the game except for silver generation.

[SashaFierce]

If there was an in game auction house, this could be solved.

All that does it swap silvers from Character A to Character B.

That's part of the problem now, silvers don't leave the game, they just move from hand to hand.


It has nothing to do with their events, large numbers of people actually make profits running thos events, people pay quite well for tickets after all, the large majority of the people running hte arena for instance weren't getting tickets for their own use.

I disagree, if the only way to better your gear is through cash events, then that's part of the problem. People do make profits during the events, but it's just passing silvers around from one character to another. Those silvers are then sold, but again, from one player to another.

[Fallen]

All that does it swap silvers from Character A to Character B.

That's part of the problem now, silvers don't leave the game, they just move from hand to hand.

Agreed. They'd have to start taxing silver transfers over a certain amount, which I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with.

Any amount over X amount of silvers MUST use a note. Note fees adjusted as needed. Coin hands become more valuable, but overall more silvers removed from game.

A few tweaks to stop people from simply removing multiple smaller amounts. Nothing crazy, if someone REALLY wanted to work around it they could, but enough so most wouldn't bother.

[Ulkov]

This is a long thread, and I'll go ahead and confess I have read maybe two posts. There's probably something like this already suggested by now, and if that's the case, feel free to scroll on. But...

Mad and I were chatting about this subject. Clearly offering items, services for items (enchanting, altering in any way, that sorta thing) won't work.

Well. What about a large pool, gamewide, we can drop silvers into for skill or point based things every month. Like 3 weeks to dump x silvers to receive x days of say.. double bounty points, a guild night, enhancive pause nights or something, whatever. Something along those lines.

[Fallen]

This is a long thread, and I'll go ahead and confess I have read maybe two posts. There's probably something like this already suggested by now, and if that's the case, feel free to scroll on. But...

Mad and I were chatting about this subject. Clearly offering items, services for items (enchanting, altering in any way, that sorta thing) won't work.

Well. What about a large pool, gamewide, we can drop silvers into for skill or point based things every month. Like 3 weeks to dump x silvers to receive x days of say.. double bounty points, a guild night, enhancive pause nights or something, whatever. Something along those lines.

I like that idea. I also thought about "Great Works" projects that characters could fund, like town expansions or new roads, etc. Stuff that would be built in exchange for obscene amounts of silvers. Top contributors would receive accolades and such.

[Neveragain]

All that does it swap silvers from Character A to Character B.

That's part of the problem now, silvers don't leave the game, they just move from hand to hand.


That's not true. Auction fees and game time sales. Game time sales all but killed gold farmers in WOW. Purchasing character leveling boosts (not something I'm a fan of) for silvers could be an option as well....

Even with those ideas, I don't think it's doable.

Not sure if you were around when we went from GS3 to GS4 but they did make an attempt at reducing loot drops when they added in character level verses critter level (they did miss on skinning though). I have to admit this played a roll in the longest hiatus I ever took, it kind of forced some of us to leave our home town and RR is for the most part the only reason I ever continued to play. (this is very old bad blood that I really don't like talking about)

[Methais]

This is largely false information.

GemStone IV just surpassed our subscription totals from 2011. This does not include F2P, which make up about 10% of the active playerbase. The game has been growing. We've grown the game 14% in the last 6 months. The power players really don't make up much of the player base these days. The difference that you're seeing is that people are much older now and have more to do, so they play a lot less than they did in the 90s. Another thing to keep in mind is the 2000+ numbers people remember are largely false. Yes, we did hit the cap from time to time, but we actually sat around 1000. Prior to AOL going unlimited, numbers were lower than they are today.



The argument to drop prices is one I see very clearly now. Dropping the prices 40% would mean 40% less revenue.

If the amount of active subscriptions remained the same.


Barrier to entry is not Premium subscription, or even Basic's $15. It's a much deeper rooted issue.

Being a text game in 2017 is rough.

Why not try to integrate into Facebook?


Let's back it up a bit, again, if the idea is to come up with actual silver drains that would drain the silver needed to make a significant impact on the wealth in game, we have to do three things.

It needs to be sustainable and constant.
It needs to drain roughly 2 billion silver a month.
It cannot be permanent (one and done).

There are a lot of things that solve this, but almost everything is tedium.

Casinos. Run shit like DB more often. Make an automated DB people can go fuck around with. Gambling is always rigged for the house. Make it fun and people will play. Do this anyway even if this thread didn't exist.


If the scratch cards and lotto were 60 million a piece, sure.

10k a scratch and they have a 1 in 60 million chance of winning. Which one of those assholes that always gets picked by spinners will probably hit on their 3rd try but other than that...


Because players don't buy that. We sell that often. Random loot in game creates masterfully padded full plate daily that will late 1.5 years, and people just sell it to the pawn for 35k.


They'd have to be temporary benefits. I've already mentioned that no one buys into them currently.

Make them more temporary, as in minutes/hours/days vs. years, make them automated and available on demand, and make them reasonably expensive.

I probably wouldn't give a shit about repair costs as long as it was instant, but instead of looking for ways to "tax" players, offer automated low duration temporary services that players are willing to pay for.

X silvers for Y minutes of Z padding/weighting/flare/some other property by some pissed off dwarf NPC. Make it expensive and short duration.

Want something really rare like a Blink weapon? 1m to add it to your weapon if eligible, or get some pre-existing, possibly 15/15/15 mostly customizable for flavor, base 4x (or higher if you want to pay more) weapon if needed to avoid item script complications, for X number of minutes or attacks or whatever cost/duration would make it worth doing for the player, but still be expensive enough to where nobody could afford to use it regularly without going broke or making the "real" version obsolete or unbalancing combat.

Want an ebow? X millions of silver for a week or Y number of shots, etc.

Short duration spell knowledge? Super expensive. Do even temporary fluff scripts on items. Short duration potions that increase HP/mana/spirit regen. The list is pretty much endless of what could be done with it.

GMs are smart enough to crunch all that and figure out appropriate costs/durations.


*Price increases on current travel costs
**Glaesan Star
**Smuggler's Cutter
**Chronomage orbs
**Vaalor ferryboat
**Blind ferryman
**Mine carts

I wouldn't mind any of this if they were sped up/made instant. Also reported for "Glaesan".

Make chronomages instant instead of on a 90 minute timer. Most of the time when I run even to/from EN it's because I don't feel like waiting on a chronomage, not because I'm unwilling to pay 100k to just get there. I would imagine I'm not the only one. Then after I go to OTF a couple times, I get bored and then leave, and end up running back because I don't wanna wait another 37 minutes for the chronomage. Even if the Glaesen Star was leaving in 2 minutes I'd still take an instant chronomage just to avoid standing on the boat for 10 minutes with my thumb up my ass.

Offer all of these things instantly for extra cost. Add private boat/ferry options to make it IC, since having the Glaesen Star instantly take you to Teras wouldn't make any sense when it's already been docked on Teras for the past hour. Add instant mine carts for extra cost. Leave the current option there too for those who need to go take a quick dump on their way to EN.


*Gate fees to enter towns
**More than 10 or 100 silver, more costly during invasions/night
*Road fees to travel
**Highwayman that require fees
**Villages that require fees to pass through

Probably wouldn't really care about this either other than having to have the actual coins on you. A way around this would be to not require coins and just add it to your town debt or just withdrawn automatically.


Oh my god, I wanna be a toll-collecting highwayman.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXyFy3d8QeI

[Ulkov]

I like that idea. I also thought about "Great Works" projects that characters could fund, like town expansions or new roads, etc. Stuff that would be built in exchange for obscene amounts of silvers. Top contributors would receive accolades and such.

Exactly. Something competitive, something anyone could contribute to, and/or that wouldnt produce more silvers in the process (or not much, at the least)

[Gelston]

Leave the current option there too for those who need to go take a quick dump on their way to EN.

That thought process though.

[hello]

Selling X for Y silvers can't work; unfortunately, like Wyrom said, the solution would need to involve a "tedium" there's just no other way.

And why is there some burning desire to drain silvers on Simu's part? Noone can give me a straight answer on this.

[Viekn]

Would someone mind explaining what the benefit is of silvers leaving the game?

[hello]

Would someone mind explaining what the benefit is of silvers leaving the game?

Kept asking this, noone can give me a straight answer.

[Fallen]

Would someone mind explaining what the benefit is of silvers leaving the game?

As best as I can explain it, without silvers leaving the game, they become worth ever decreasing amounts. What that means for those NOT selling silver is it takes more of it to buy goods/services in the player market. They are not becoming any easier to generate in game, but you will need more and more to buy equipment from a player, or that enchant/ensorcell ect.

If it gets bad enough, it actually could impact normal players who wouldn't dream of spending dollars for gear or currency. The best gear comes from the players, not the staff. Legacy gear will nearly always be more powerful than what will be on offer from events short of the very rare grand auction. If you never have a mind to move up from 4x gear and don't care about fluff/rp toys, you'd likely not have to worry about the secondary market at all.

[Androidpk]

Silvers are easier to get these days. Powerful items are easier to get these days. I don't see what the fuss is about.

[hello]

Well, let me take a shot.

On Simu's side, silvers being a substitute for cash $ is problematic as it squeezes a select few players who have the means to pay cash for silvers; which in turn fucks up their Simucoin store. Eventually, these unicorn players will leave the game or become far less interested in it and that medium to translate player demand for Simustuff into RL cash for Simu disappears.

On the player's side, I can only imagine a few billionaire merchants want to jackup the dollar price of silvers and hope to dump their silvers last when it's at it's peak.

[hello]

As best as I can explain it, without silvers leaving the game, they become worth ever decreasing amounts. What that means for those NOT selling silver is it takes more of it to buy goods/services in the player market. They are not becoming any easier to generate in game, but you will need more and more to buy equipment from a player, or that enchant/ensorcell ect.

If it gets bad enough, it actually could impact normal players who wouldn't dream of spending dollars for gear or currency. The best gear comes from the players, not the staff. Legacy gear will nearly always be more powerful than what will be on offer from events short of the very rare grand auction. If you never have a mind to move up from 4x gear and don't care about fluff/rp toys, you'd likely not have to worry about the secondary market at all.

This is a great point as well. Basically, all the shit in Gemstone will be owned by a few old time players.

"Trickle up economics"

-Lord Reagan

[hello]

I actually have a decent idea. Why not have a silver fee for exchanging SIMUCOIN stuff with other players in-game. If I wanted to purchase a SIMUCOIN fixstat potion for silvers from someone in-game (who bought it directly from the store) a charge of 50% of the exchanged value will be deducted from the buyer's bank.

[hello]

Oh another one. Like REGISTERing items you can now INSURE items from loss through disarm,theft, or general carelessness. Insurance premiums paid in silvers weekly (auto deducted from your bank accounts) set by item properties or type.

[Whirlin]

There are elements of the game which have specific valuation processes, think of loresongs, think of shop-purchased items. Inflation in the economy means that these prices will no longer reflect the economic burden that they were once meant to when being purchased. If processes are established that utilize 10% of a loresong's value as the basis for a surcharge of a service, if silvers are more plentiful, that marginal percentage rate would need to be constantly reviewed/adjusted/etc rather than establishing long term monetary policies based on an overall equalibrium in silvers' value.

[hello]

There are elements of the game which have specific valuation processes, think of loresongs, think of shop-purchased items. Inflation in the economy means that these prices will no longer reflect the economic burden that they were once meant to when being purchased. If processes are established that utilize 10% of a loresong's value as the basis for a surcharge of a service, if silvers are more plentiful, that marginal percentage rate would need to be constantly reviewed/adjusted/etc rather than establishing long term monetary policies based on an overall equalibrium in silvers' value.

Could just set it so it evaluates stuff by premium points; then set a constantly adjusting PP to silver exchange. So, a GM would just adjust the PP to Silvers for the week or month or whatever.

[Neveragain]

As best as I can explain it, without silvers leaving the game, they become worth ever decreasing amounts. What that means for those NOT selling silver is it takes more of it to buy goods/services in the player market. They are not becoming any easier to generate in game, but you will need more and more to buy equipment from a player, or that enchant/ensorcell ect.

If it gets bad enough, it actually could impact normal players who wouldn't dream of spending dollars for gear or currency. The best gear comes from the players, not the staff. Legacy gear will nearly always be more powerful than what will be on offer from events short of the very rare grand auction. If you never have a mind to move up from 4x gear and don't care about fluff/rp toys, you'd likely not have to worry about the secondary market at all.

You're kind of admitting here that cash sales are the problem.

[hello]

Maybe we should all get off our high horses and ask how real MMOs like WoW or ESO or whatever solved this problem?

[Godsanvil]

Hirelings. To hunt with. I know we are supposed to do it together. But yeah I don't get a lot of volunteers to come do say a lvl 30 warcamp. There are a lot of place and things I can't do for lack of help. I also don't have a lot of time to play and dealing with someone else being ready to go just makes it less. A little bard with a few songs for added DS and AS would be cool. You could charge per hour EQ has a pretty good model for it atm.

[hello]

Hirelings. To hunt with. I know we are supposed to do it together. But yeah I don't get a lot of volunteers to come do say a lvl 30 warcamp. There are a lot of place and things I can't do for lack of help. I also don't have a lot of time to play and dealing with someone else being ready to go just makes it less. A little bard with a few songs for added DS and AS would be cool.

Won't happen as it disrupts multi-accounting and thus Simu's revenues.

[Whirlin]

Create another Reim Treasure Pile-styled automated gambling mechanism for silvers for 100k a pull, and throw some nice stuff in there.

[Fallen]

You're kind of admitting here that cash sales are the problem.

Which again highlights that you think the secondary market for this game is bad for it.

[Fallen]

Hirelings. To hunt with. I know we are supposed to do it together. But yeah I don't get a lot of volunteers to come do say a lvl 30 warcamp. There are a lot of place and things I can't do for lack of help. I also don't have a lot of time to play and dealing with someone else being ready to go just makes it less. A little bard with a few songs for added DS and AS would be cool.

Agreed with hirelings. They don't need to be the smartest bunch in the world. It swings, it is group friendly, picks you up if you get knocked down, etc.

[Wrathbringer]

Create another Reim Treasure Pile-styled automated gambling mechanism for silvers for 100k a pull, and throw some nice stuff in there.

I like this idea too.

[Neveragain]

Maybe we should all get off our high horses and ask how real MMOs like WoW or ESO or whatever solved this problem?

WOW did it using game time tokens, character leveling tokens and an ongoing effort to shut down gold/account sales.

[Neveragain]

Which again highlights that you think the secondary market for this game is bad for it.


If it gets bad enough, it actually could impact normal players who wouldn't dream of spending dollars for gear or currency. This is where you say it's bad for the game. There's no dancing around it.

[Wrathbringer]

This is where you say it's bad for the game. There's no dancing around it.

It's not bad for the game.

[Neveragain]

It's not bad for the game.

Then there's obviously no reason for a silver drain. /thread

[Wrathbringer]

Then there's obviously no reason for a silver drain. /thread

Don't be retarded. There's enough retardation floating around here without you adding to it.

[Godsanvil]

Won't happen as it disrupts multi-accounting and thus Simu's revenues.
Yeah I guess that's true.

[Godsanvil]

How about trips to FWI Charge per trip. People would pay for it to pick up items and stuff its not offered in the simu store. Wouldn't fix it but doing something is better then nothing. A few things like this would help.

[Fallen]

This is where you say it's bad for the game. There's no dancing around it.

The worth of silvers can be decoupled from the dollar amount per million and still be relevant to this discussion. Factors beyond the cash market influence the worth of silvers. These factors include the amount of silver generated from the game itself, and the removal of silvers from the game (as in not given to another player). As the worth of silvers falls, the buying power in the normal (non-cash) player economy will fall as well.

Could this scenario become a significant problem? In my opinion, yes. If the casual player cannot make meaningful amounts of silver in the player economy, it detracts from the overall experience of the game. This is of course leaving out the argument of equity players feel their characters/gear is worth, which obviously adds to the argument, but is not necessary to make the point.

Is it currently a significant problem? Not necessarily, but we don't have access to the numbers Wyrom does. I would imagine it is a concern, but not a high priority.

[hello]

Breakage folks; and frankly I think it'll be a net boon for people with nice gear. This would drain silvers from the economy like no tomorrow, silvers, I'm willing to bet would climb back to $15 or more.

Not sure how difficult basic non-permanent breakage will be to implement though.

[hello]

Also, Breakage exists in DR.. in no way shape or form is it "tedium". I just run ".fix" script and in like 5 minutes all my shit is fixed (be like 30 seconds if you take out any in-game wait time).

Wyrom I know you're afraid to even slightly 'rock the boat' but really across the spectrum it really would be unnoticeable. New players wouldn't really care as they never experienced a time when it wasn't around and veteran players would be slightly inconvenienced but rejoice at the surging silver prices.

And you got the skeleton for a Breakage system all setup already.

[Wrathbringer]

How about trips to FWI Charge per trip. People would pay for it to pick up items and stuff its not offered in the simu store. Wouldn't fix it but doing something is better then nothing. A few things like this would help.

Uh, no.

[Kronius]

I'd be perfectly okay with having to "fix" my gear. In fact, as someone mentioned earlier, it adds more "realism" if such a thing were to exist in a fantasy game. It makes sense I'd have to have someone work the padding in my armor, or else it degrades.

[BLZrizz]

In addition to item repair, current item loss mechanics can be channeled into a steady silver drain. Give players predictability in that they will 100% get their item back, just make it costly.

[Fallen]

I'd be perfectly okay with having to "fix" my gear. In fact, as someone mentioned earlier, it adds more "realism" if such a thing were to exist in a fantasy game. It makes sense I'd have to have someone work the padding in my armor, or else it degrades.

Could open up meaningful skills for Warriors and Rogues. Players can fix their gear, pay an NPC to do it, or pay a fellow player to do it with added benefits.

[Ardwen]

except allowing players do do it sort of removes the draining the silvers aspect if we can do it too.

[Wrathbringer]

In addition to item repair, current item loss mechanics can be channeled into a steady silver drain. Give players predictability in that they will 100% get their item back, just make it costly.


I'd be perfectly okay with having to "fix" my gear. In fact, as someone mentioned earlier, it adds more "realism" if such a thing were to exist in a fantasy game. It makes sense I'd have to have someone work the padding in my armor, or else it degrades.

These are terrible ideas.

[SonoftheNorth]

I think duskruin for silvers instead of simucoins is probably the best answer tbh.

[hello]

except allowing players do do it sort of removes the draining the silvers aspect if we can do it too.

Not really, you're forgetting the costs associated with fixing stuff including perhaps renting a forge etc, could all be integrated into an overall breaking system.

[Wrathbringer]

I think duskruin for silvers instead of simucoins is probably the best answer tbh.

I think this would be effective as well.

[hello]

Wyrom himself stated already that breakage was probably the best if not the only meaningful way for a silver drain. I forget exactly why he put the idea on hold; think it was due to implementation man hours or something.

[hello]

I think this would be effective as well.

Ideas that aren't moronic please; Simu will never allow this to happen..ever.

[Viekn]

I think duskruin for silvers instead of simucoins is probably the best answer tbh.

I'd throw a shit ton of silvers at that.

[BLZrizz]

These are terrible ideas.

I don't hunt most of the capped areas because of current item loss mechanics. Being able to pay to get my item back would remedy this issue for me, and for others who feel the same way. Nothing would stop players from continuing to use the existing system of helping each other out and forming weapon recovery posses, but these are not 100%. I'd be willing to pay for 100%.

[hello]

I don't hunt most of the capped areas because of current item loss mechanics. Being able to pay to get my item back would remedy this issue for me, and for others who feel the same way. Nothing would stop players from continuing to use the existing system of helping each other out and forming weapon recovery posses, but these are not 100%. I'd be willing to pay for 100%.

Already suggested.

[Kronius]

These are terrible ideas.

Elaborate why they are terrible ideas? Think of the possibilities you could expound on this singular idea. For example, with current materials system in place right now, you could have costs/benefits based on the type of material, workability, degradation times, exponential cost increases, etc...

If players say they don't want breakage, fine, I think a great compromise is somewhere in the middle with degradation and a cost/repair system. Don't get hit, your gear degrades slowly. Get beat up, you gotta fix it more often. Costs scaling based on the items properties. It's certainly doable and in my opinion something that could implemented fairly quickly.

Coupled with "gear assurance" that you'll never truly "lose" something due to game mechanics, I think you could put a nice dent in things while adding more dimensions to the gear market. Additional factors would increase/decrease the value of gear.

[Godsanvil]

Uh, no.

Uh stfu if you have nothing better to say as to why not. You are just wasting space.

[Malisai]

I would be for allowing people to buy off the shelf, powerful buffs to their items, new items, but then it binds the item to the character.

[Wrathbringer]

I would be for allowing people to buy off the shelf, powerful buffs to their items, new items, but then it binds the item to the character.

Attuning sucks.

[chalion]

The game has gone too far down the path of removing item loss/wear and tear functionality with a few exceptions.

If they really wanted to do something like that they'd have to have a system like Eve online to replace high-end stuff either through character functions or automated/high availability (but high costs). The back end just does not currently support this. The system of GM/development does not support this. Ruling by committe, contractors creating and supporting their own scripts, the whole back end is flawed to only support so much. Without a solid system in place first to replace/create more high end items the community would collectively shit its pants and run fleeing, leaving only the most hardcore of the hardcore left playing.

I'd be all in favor of more punative deaths, breakage, wear and tear IF systems were in place where that stuff could be recreated/recovered easily. As it is now, we are paying a bunch of money to get enchants and TD and silly stuff put on weapons because its impossible for the players to do it themselves. Most of the community wants more power in the hands of the players. Simutronics says "No, you have balance issues, unless you pay us cash then we'll turn an eye to balance" so it behooves us to fight for a strong silver price in and out of game because thats the one thing that every player of the game can acquire without paying above and beyond the subscription level. And that effects every. If the economy goes to a blood scrip one because silver prices just drop out that cuts out a large market of people and potentially ruins the blood scrip market because if the only way other than cash to buy in is silvers, and silvers are ultimately worthless, then the only option to buy in is cash... and now a percentage of your players drops out again.

Its not a simple system you can boil down to is this bad or is this good. There is a reason Eve hired an economist to keep their in game economy running. I'm not saying Gemstone needs one, but they do need to consider how silvers are being used in game right now.
Ignoring third party sales , what can you spend silvers on in game?
Minimal charges for merchants, 1k-25k,50k per, usually less than 20 people worked on each visit.
Rent for private properties - minimal
MHO and CHE stuff - This might be a good avenue to expand, the bazaar this summer would be awesome if MHOs and CHEs could have legit shops where they design items and can be sold to the players and a % goes into the endowment of the both. This removes some silvers and keeps some, also gives players more incentive/power with CHEs and MHOs and helps people impact the game more directly (Hey thats an item i designed!)
Festivals - minimal item purchases , most contain some mechanic that ADDS silvers (either directly or through gems/items sold to pawnshop)
Crafting - minimal, most low costs options are best given the limited higher end options for each craft, viability of items and mechanic abilities provided (cobbling is mostly fluff)
chronomage and premium travel - lol
anything else?

[hello]

The game has gone too far down the path of removing item loss/wear and tear functionality with a few exceptions.

If they really wanted to do something like that they'd have to have a system like Eve online to replace high-end stuff either through character functions or automated/high availability (but high costs). The back end just does not currently support this. The system of GM/development does not support this. Ruling by committe, contractors creating and supporting their own scripts, the whole back end is flawed to only support so much. Without a solid system in place first to replace/create more high end items the community would collectively shit its pants and run fleeing, leaving only the most hardcore of the hardcore left playing.

I'd be all in favor of more punative deaths, breakage, wear and tear IF systems were in place where that stuff could be recreated/recovered easily. As it is now, we are paying a bunch of money to get enchants and TD and silly stuff put on weapons because its impossible for the players to do it themselves. Most of the community wants more power in the hands of the players. Simutronics says "No, you have balance issues, unless you pay us cash then we'll turn an eye to balance" so it behooves us to fight for a strong silver price in and out of game because thats the one thing that every player of the game can acquire without paying above and beyond the subscription level. And that effects every. If the economy goes to a blood scrip one because silver prices just drop out that cuts out a large market of people and potentially ruins the blood scrip market because if the only way other than cash to buy in is silvers, and silvers are ultimately worthless, then the only option to buy in is cash... and now a percentage of your players drops out again.

Its not a simple system you can boil down to is this bad or is this good. There is a reason Eve hired an economist to keep their in game economy running. I'm not saying Gemstone needs one, but they do need to consider how silvers are being used in game right now.
Ignoring third party sales , what can you spend silvers on in game?
Minimal charges for merchants, 1k-25k,50k per, usually less than 20 people worked on each visit.
Rent for private properties - minimal
MHO and CHE stuff - This might be a good avenue to expand, the bazaar this summer would be awesome if MHOs and CHEs could have legit shops where they design items and can be sold to the players and a % goes into the endowment of the both. This removes some silvers and keeps some, also gives players more incentive/power with CHEs and MHOs and helps people impact the game more directly (Hey thats an item i designed!)
Festivals - minimal item purchases , most contain some mechanic that ADDS silvers (either directly or through gems/items sold to pawnshop)
Crafting - minimal, most low costs options are best given the limited higher end options for each craft, viability of items and mechanic abilities provided (cobbling is mostly fluff)
chronomage and premium travel - lol
anything else?

Noone here is talking about permanent breakage, we're all talking about non-permanent breakage.

[hello]

Also, I don't think people here understand the MASSIVE scale of what Wyrom is talking about. Simu trying to sell shit to remove silvers out of the system will only do .000000000001% dent to the overall problem. 100 million silvers sound like a lot to you and me but he's talking about thousands of billions of silvers.

[Whirlin]

The irony of hello commenting on people not getting it.

[Velfi]

The irony of hello commenting on people not getting it.

http://i.imgur.com/lTdnmhp.jpg

[hello]

The irony of hello commenting on people not getting it.

Because they don't.

They still see this as some podunk problem and in their mind's eye they envision some man-made lake that needs shoring up ..while in reality they need to start thinking about the Atlantic Ocean.

[Mogonis]

Because they don't.

They still see this as some podunk problem and in their mind's eye they envision some man-made lake that needs shoring up ..while in reality they need to start thinking about the Atlantic Ocean.
You are a special kind.

[chalion]

Because they don't.

They still see this as some podunk problem and in their mind's eye they envision some man-made lake that needs shoring up ..while in reality they need to start thinking about the Atlantic Ocean.

https://www.wow247.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Samurai-Cop-Mark-Frazer-620x411.jpg

[Methais]

Within a couple years if not sooner, if nothing changes with the usefulness of silvers, the only way to get good items will be either via paying cash to another player, or paying cash to Simu + a huge in game grind via secondary currency pay-to-play events like DR, which will be a pretty terrible thing for the game overall.

[hello]

Within a couple years if not sooner, if nothing changes with the usefulness of silvers, the only way to get good items will be either via paying cash to another player, or paying cash to Simu + a huge in game grind via secondary currency pay-to-play events like DR, which will be a pretty terrible thing for the game overall.

Bingo. And most these shitheads are sitting here going "hee hee hee how do I swindle something out of this serious game-wide problem."

[chalion]

Bingo. And most these shitheads are sitting here going "hee hee hee how do I swindle something out of this serious game-wide problem."

https://media0.giphy.com/media/WBQ7N6YnuRmX6/200_s.gif

[Eodus]

-Lord Reagan

Guy, you sign your message with a different player name every time. How many characters do you have?

It's been stated now by several people: Cap the amount of silver a player can produce over a 30-day period of time, or add some kind of governor that increases steadily in some sort of parallel to silver/day production.

I spent some time thinking about this and a straight line reduction in silver production is something that would affect even the lowest-level players. You don't want that. Nobody wants that.

Why not implement the a system like this -- one that kicks in when the AI determines you've got a silver-miner on your hands?

I think we can all agree that Lich made it easier to mine silver. Not everyone is using it this way. Most aren't. Why not adjust the rate of introduction in such a way as it only affects the small % of players who are clearly using Lich to mine silver? I'm not saying it's detrimental to the game -- quite the opposite in fact -- but needs some sort of governing.

Without this, Wyrom, ANY solution you attempt to put in place will be far less likely to succeed. Stop the bleeding! Plug the holes! And so on.

[Eodus]

What effect would it have on the economy to cap the amount of silver production on any one account at 10m/mo? Any economists in here?

[Astray]

What effect would it have on the economy to cap the amount of silver production on any one account at 10m/mo? Any economists in here?

10m ain't shit.

[Eodus]

10m ain't shit.

It would in short order, if they capped the monthly production at 10m per account. Probably not as good an idea as a whorehouse though.

[Astray]

It would in short order, if they capped the monthly production at 10m per account. Probably not as good an idea as a whorehouse though.

When you're dealing with finances in a gaming sense, too much is rarely ever 'too much'. Though that comes with the caveat of end-game, consistently new, or other desirables to sink the money into. That's where the problem lies. There simply isn't enough desirable content to sink in-game currency into. Instead, there's an abundance of real money events, items, etc to dig into.

It's the problem of having water but drinking coke instead. Or some such shit.

A whorehouse is a great idea, shut up.

[hello]

Did Wyrom ever say what the priority on 'silver drains' is; I just realized this thread was created by some player and not Wyrom. I don't even believe that 'silver drains' makes it into Wyrom's top 5.