Wyrom, ST/DU?

[hello]

Is there any solid plans for these stats (ST/Du) or have they gone Savant? Curious, so I can start slightly minding these stats when crafting/buying. Any info would be cool!

Doing a great job thus far Wyrom, thanks.

[Wyrom]

Breakage is shelved indefinitely.

[nocturnix]

Breakage is shelved indefinitely.

Good thing too, it is not really a "fun" idea at all.

[hello]

Breakage is shelved indefinitely.

The sweet tears of broken Vultite Claidhmores is what makes this game swing!

https://media.tenor.co/images/e58414f3363a5637fc4470bd88cc2656/tenor.gif

[drauz]

Breakage is shelved indefinitely.

Now do that with disarm.

As payment for this change please accept this gif as tribute.

http://i.imgur.com/9GlaV4K.gif

[ArchSenex]

There ARE ways that breakage could be done right, they'd just require pretty much resetting how itemization works in the game (effectively, every item would need to be replaceable without GM intervention, so the paddings addable by warriors, and many scripts addable by appropriate classes or quests, etc. so it takes some concrete amount of effort to replace, but is completely replaceable). As long as scripts can disappear for availability (gm quits, gets tired of the script, or the wind changes), breakage is just too punitive.

I see disarm the same way, honestly.

[Ososis]

I like the new disarm mechanics that have come around. But PLEASE, for the love of god, make berserker warriors attempt to kill the snake. Warriors should be the best defended against any disarm mechanic, yet snake weapon while berserked are a death sentence.

[Fallen]

I'd like to see equipment that comes with breakage, like some armor did in the past. That way better than 4x gear could be sold off the shelf for a high price, but it would only last so long before breaking. You could then repair for increasing amounts of silver (silver sink) and have new merchant services to repair items, increase durability, and rare services to permify.

[Gelston]

Nah. Call me firmly against any new tedium added to the game.

[Fallen]

Nah. Call me firmly against any new tedium added to the game.

Some might find grinding/merchanting for vast silver to afford non-standard gear tedious. This would give them an alternative option.

People seem to have a strong aversion to most temporary upgrades, though, so I doubt the system would get much use anyway.

[ArchSenex]

Some might find grinding/merchanting for vast silver to afford non-standard gear tedious. This would give them an alternative option.

People seem to have a strong aversion to most temporary upgrades, though, so I doubt the system would get much use anyway.

My only critque of your proposal is that it has a GM reliant component, so if the GM in charge of that ever poofs, all that gear becomes wastebin fodder. If it was done in a way that was completely automated, it would be different.

Personally, I consider Item Creation to be content, not tedium. Many people enjoy playing crafters, they'd be the ones making the weapons. There are many MMO's built around heavy player-crafting, and the people who want to focus on combat are able to just fine (FFXIV is a good example of that).

[Fallen]

My only critque of your proposal is that it has a GM reliant component, so if the GM in charge of that ever poofs, all that gear becomes wastebin fodder. If it was done in a way that was completely automated, it would be different.

Personally, I consider Item Creation to be content, not tedium. Many people enjoy playing crafters, they'd be the ones making the weapons. There are many MMO's built around heavy player-crafting, and the people who want to focus on combat are able to just fine (FFXIV is a good example of that).

I was definitely picturing the system being largely automated. GMs would only control when/how much of the service is offered, so it wouldn't be dependent on a particular GM.

[SashaFierce]

Some might find grinding/merchanting for vast silver to afford non-standard gear tedious. This would give them an alternative option.

People seem to have a strong aversion to most temporary upgrades, though, so I doubt the system would get much use anyway.


The way silver prices have fallen, it's cheaper than ever to improve your gear. If you can't invest time/energy/money into the game, you don't deserve to have nice things.

[Wyrom]

Personally, I'm a huge advocate of item upkeep. It keeps the in-game economy healthy and pushes steady silver drains. But the resources we'd have to sink into it to pull off breakage isn't worth the payoff. It's something we can revisit when the game grows some more.

[ArchSenex]

MOST games accomplish it in a sort of backwards direction, in part to help mitigate the loss aversion that people feel. Breakage makes you feel really really upset because you "lost" something. Most modern MMO's, however, continually push the upper boundary up, so that the best piece of gear at one point is now garbage in an expansion or two.

Ultimately, they accomplish the same goal, and both have people who hate them, but players in most games don't consider "this item shall be my weapon forever" to be a normal design pattern.

Obviously, this is a place where GS is just going to show its age. You can't pass through 30 years of industry and come out anywhere close to the current standard.

[Wyrom]

MOST games accomplish it in a sort of backwards direction, in part to help mitigate the loss aversion that people feel. Breakage makes you feel really really upset because you "lost" something. Most modern MMO's, however, continually push the upper boundary up, so that the best piece of gear at one point is now garbage in an expansion or two.

Ultimately, they accomplish the same goal, and both have people who hate them, but players in most games don't consider "this item shall be my weapon forever" to be a normal design pattern.

Obviously, this is a place where GS is just going to show its age. You can't pass through 30 years of industry and come out anywhere close to the current standard.

Some MMOs do run into that item attrition angst to a point that it has stunted item progression. GS has layers and layers of properties you can add to a single item, where other games typically just make you buy a new gear set or raise the attribute caps.

We'd need to change a lot about the game to bring breakage back. And we'd never have catastrophic (permanent) breakage.

[Fallen]

The way silver prices have fallen, it's cheaper than ever to improve your gear. If you can't invest time/energy/money into the game, you don't deserve to have nice things.

Silver prices fluctuate fairly rapidly, and many consider buying silvers to be a non-option. I'm not one of them, but I understand the thought process. Outside of merchanting, it is more difficult to make silvers these days than before. The treasure system, with particular emphasis on skinning and trading have been nerfed.

[Wrathbringer]

Item upkeep sucks.

[Tenlaar]

Breakage systems in a game where people spend literal real life years working on upgrading their weapon or armor seems like yet another great way to keep working towards the eventual demise of the game.

[SashaFierce]

Silver prices fluctuate fairly rapidly, and many consider buying silvers to be a non-option. I'm not one of them, but I understand the thought process. Outside of merchanting, it is more difficult to make silvers these days than before. The treasure system, with particular emphasis on skinning and trading have been nerfed.

You don't have to buy silvers from other players, just buy silvers from Simu via Summit Academy. Or, just wait for the people to go stupid and keep dropping the price of silvers lower and lower.

I don't think it's hard to make silvers at all, despite any nerfs.

I stand by the statement though, that if you aren't willing to put in time/energy you don't deserve anything.

What kind of gear do you think should be available on a temporary basis? They just sold 6x HCP/HCW gear off the shelf for dirt cheap. Are you saying people should have access to gear better than that for an even cheaper price?

[hello]

Personally, I'm a huge advocate of item upkeep. It keeps the in-game economy healthy and pushes steady silver drains. But the resources we'd have to sink into it to pull off breakage isn't worth the payoff. It's something we can revisit when the game grows some more.

Just let me at your code Wyrom, I'll make breakage happen... I promise I'll be gentle.

https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/walkingdead/images/d/db/Tom_baker_creepy_smile.gif

[Fallen]

You don't have to buy silvers from other players, just buy silvers from Simu via Summit Academy. Or, just wait for the people to go stupid and keep dropping the price of silvers lower and lower.

I don't think it's hard to make silvers at all, despite any nerfs.

I stand by the statement though, that if you aren't willing to put in time/energy you don't deserve anything.

What kind of gear do you think should be available on a temporary basis? They just sold 6x HCP/HCW gear off the shelf for dirt cheap. Are you saying people should have access to gear better than that for an even cheaper price?

You're still talking about using dollars to acquire in-game items/silver. Again, this is a nonstarter for some people, though I agree that Simu is blurring that line more effectively as time goes on.

In terms of the items you are talking about, there were using a secondary currency and weren't they also pulled and/or had their price modified? Likely not a good example.

[Methais]

What about Ophion though?

[hello]

You're still talking about using dollars to acquire in-game items/silver. Again, this is a nonstarter for some people, though I agree that Simu is blurring that line more effectively as time goes on.

In terms of the items you are talking about, there were using a secondary currency and weren't they also pulled and/or had their price modified? Likely not a good example.

Let me just be upfront about this, the primary reason why they can't implement breakage is because it'll break the silver-for-dollars market, that's it. People still seem to not understand how big of a deal this Silvers for cash is to the sustainability of the game. And I respect that since it'll keep the game going. But...

I still am a strong believer that a basic breakage system is not too difficult to implement and is badly needed in terms of the runaway silver inflation we have in the game. Silvers are selling at 6~7 bucks per million, I remember the days it was cheap at 15. The number of players have increased permanently (thanks in part to Wyrom and friends handling of the game across the board) but silvers still decline, why?

I also am a strong proponent of completely removing level limits on items, it's just antiquated and stupid at this point.

[Mogonis]

Go start your own MUD and leave us alone. We don't deserve to suffer because you have too much free time.

[Methais]

Let me just be upfront about this, the primary reason why they can't implement breakage is because it'll break the silver-for-dollars market, that's it. People still seem to not understand how big of a deal this Silvers for cash is to the sustainability of the game. And I respect that since it'll keep the game going. But...

I still am a strong believer that a basic breakage system is not too difficult to implement and is badly needed in terms of the runaway silver inflation we have in the game. Silvers are selling at 6~7 bucks per million, I remember the days it was cheap at 15. The number of players have increased permanently (thanks in part to Wyrom and friends handling of the game across the board) but silvers still decline, why?

I also am a strong proponent of completely removing level limits on items, it's just antiquated and stupid at this point.

It's because people will quit in massive numbers. Simu never recovered from the mass exodus last time they tried to bring breakage back. They would have to reach astronomical levels of retarded to put it back on the table.

[hello]

It's because people will quit in massive numbers. Simu never recovered from the mass exodus last time they tried to bring breakage back. They would have to reach astronomical levels of retarded to put it back on the table.

Yes, I do remember the first attempt. And you're right, it was horrible. But, the general rule of thumb in game design 101, give them a buff before you nerf.

Have automated merchants to add temporary (falls away as the weapon/armor breaks) flares, padding, and scripts, put these behind a SIMUCOIN paywall; implement breakage a short while afterwards.

[Fallen]

I don't think anyone in this thread is arguing for a complete switch to a breakage model for all existing and new equipment. I agree that is a horrible idea.

I am suggesting an alternative market for equipment that would feature breakage as a balancing factor.

[SashaFierce]

I am suggesting an alternative market for equipment that would feature breakage as a balancing factor.

It sounds more like you want to devalue all the existing gear by offering it cheap because it now breaks.

No thanks.

[Gelston]

I don't think anyone in this thread is arguing for a complete switch to a breakage model for all existing and new equipment. I agree that is a horrible idea.

I am suggesting an alternative market for equipment that would feature breakage as a balancing factor.

Mmm... I suppose, but then again, we sorta have this with temporary padding and weighting on items.

[Tgo01]

Breakage is shelved indefinitely.

That does it, I'm canceling my accounts.

[Gelston]

That does it, I'm canceling my accounts.

Again?

[Tgo01]

Again?

Damn right, it's my annual meltdown.

[Orthin]

What magazine is that dog man reading?

[Tgo01]

What magazine is that dog man reading?

Good Boy Daily.

[Fallen]

It sounds more like you want to devalue all the existing gear by offering it cheap because it now breaks.

No thanks.

Yes, this is exactly my diabolical plan. You've exposed my dark secret.

[Orthin]

Good Boy Daily.

Lies I see a C in there! New life mission!!

[Tgo01]

Lies I see a C in there! New life mission!!

Dogs can't spell.

[chalion]

The core community is too committed to their items, sunken too much money/time into getting them to approach any sort of system like this in any reasonable way. Furthermore, the way the GM structure currently exists is not conducive to any realistic change to anything other than the complete removal of any type of item loss short of "consumable" items. The frankly bullshit system of having GM exclusive scripts is nothing but aggrivating for trying to either restore something old, get something once released unlocked, or having something added to something existing just creates frustration on the player end (I'm sure constant calls for support of old scripts isnt fun on the GM side as well). I "get it" in the sense that each GM is a contractor in many ways, and it's their own style of coding and "good fuck how does this even WORK!?" when looking at code. But are there any steps to kinda corral this behavoir and create coding standards to better allow scripts to be maintained/supported/altered by others when/if people leave or are replaced?
Items would have to be created (improved, modified) at a rate generally equal to how they were destroyed/removed. There is just such a huge lack of automation of that process that I'm sure its a time sink on the back end as much as its a desire on the client side (us). I think Summit Academy took a big step forward with this, and I really hope that you guys coded in such a way that the modifications done to characters is a framework that you can then drop in and make simple alterations such that now the system targets and modifies items given by a character instead of the character itself. I also understand that the underlying code may or may not support that, given with how complex a single item can be and all the possible variations.

WORD QUOTA

TL : DR

I want a script vendor that I can go up to and unlock/add a script to an item (even if just fluff) and pay silvers for. Same with Light/deep services.

[beldannon5]

A script vendor would be nice. So many items that will take centuries to unlock. It was awesome when there were some inlocks being done monthly before our guru disappeared for prem. Even then there were so many things thay never got touched.

[ArchSenex]

A script vendor would be nice. So many items that will take centuries to unlock. It was awesome when there were some inlocks being done monthly before our guru disappeared for prem. Even then there were so many things thay never got touched.

I think the fact that many of the new scripts actually DO unlock with certificates and other automated setups (I'm looking at you Reim...) Means that they are at least testing the waters on such a system.

[Seran]

The weapon crafting and forging system was a great concept, but without some sort of normal item attrition the point of it is lost. Yes you can obtain some small statistical advantage using elegant or perfectly forged weapons, but in general mastering it doesn't have a point anymore.

Back when the idea of breakage was in vogue, crafting and the -then- concept of a mining/smelting system really jazzed a lot of people. Who wouldn't want to explore the wilds for rare nodes for some hard to obtain metals when you could turn it into a really awesome or even valuable piece of gear.

[nocturnix]

Item upkeep sucks.

Agreed. I can't keep my enhancives charged currently. The rate at which i earn bounty points, and I have started doing 2-3 bounties per day (i am not a power player, so 2-3 is alot for me), and I still dont have enough to charge one of my enhancives doing this for weeks.

I'm concerned i will be able to keep all my enhancives charged indefinately without having to start paying other players to utilize their bounty points. So the concept of item charging in GS currently scares the shit out of me since it seems tipped towards players who complete obscene amount of content per day/week.

[Methais]

Yes, I do remember the first attempt. And you're right, it was horrible. But, the general rule of thumb in game design 101, give them a buff before you nerf.

Have automated merchants to add temporary (falls away as the weapon/armor breaks) flares, padding, and scripts, put these behind a SIMUCOIN paywall; implement breakage a short while afterwards.

Simu still hasn't learned this concept yet. See the wizard folder for more info.