Self ammo VS regular arrows

[SHAFT]

Let's have an honest talk: how much of a pain in the ass is it to use REAL, actual arrows?

I've done the self ammo bow before and I gotta say, they're certainly convenient.

I also couldnt help but notice BriarFox, who is/was the archery guru, even swapped arrows for a lirion bow.

So, who has an opinion on the matter?

[Taernath]

It's a pain in the ass, but it's manageable. Every few hunts I make 5 more arrows.

I wouldn't complain if they found a way to get rid of the ammo system though. Maybe allow fletching to make 'quivers' that can serve as platforms for enchants/blessing/whatever. Not having to type (or script) 'get arrow' or 'load bolt/cock crossbow' every time you fire would make it a lot more accessible too.

[Neveragain]

Let's have an honest talk: how much of a pain in the ass is it to use REAL, actual arrows?

I've done the self ammo bow before and I gotta say, they're certainly convenient.

I also couldnt help but notice BriarFox, who is/was the archery guru, even swapped arrows for a lirion bow.

So, who has an opinion on the matter?

Both outdated and about as unreal as it can possibly get.

I have posted this before but it's pretty fucking awesome to watch and make you laugh at the thought of hauling around bundles of a hundred arrows:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUG8UPsgE3U

Take note of the 3 arrows in the quiver, most I have ever carried is 4 and never used more than 2 for a kill shot. Without the gun these dudes are fucked.

[drauz]

I think it would be great for Simu to listen to these comments. I would apply them to many of the systems that the game employs.

Does it add to the immersion to get arrow, nock arrow, shoot arrow each time? Or does it add to the tedium? How many other systems could be streamlined without "ruining" the immersion?

I think it would make the game more accessible to newer players.

[BriarFox]

Regular arrows are generally no problem (with quick scripts to fire and gather). I grabbed the ebow because of Reim: hunting non-corp undead for two hours is a huge pain with real arrows because your bless will wear out and you have to wait 6 seconds after each kill to gather your arrows since they're not sticking in the creature.

[Orthin]

I think it would be great for Simu to listen to these comments. I would apply them to many of the systems that the game employs.

Does it add to the immersion to get arrow, nock arrow, shoot arrow each time? Or does it add to the tedium? How many other systems could be streamlined without "ruining" the immersion?

I think it would make the game more accessible to newer players.

to me the immersion is lost because of the amount of commands required, I relegate it all to scripts because of how quickly all of those actions need to take place especially with a crossbow.

[Whirlin]

Per Nuadjha's comments... that was more about Reim requiring both MAGICAL and BLESSED attacks to hit critters. That's a problem, I completely agree. I don't think arrows are as big of a problem in general.

Archery is an INCREDIBLY advantageous weapon style in general. Critical Tier 4 death criticals, no size versus size comparison, typically lower RT for aiming, cheaper skills for aiming, the ability to remain hidden while attacking for snipers, high DEX phantom crit weighting. Honestly, the weapon style is broken as hell compared to pretty any other weapon type.

Yes, Arrow management sucks... but part of that is on each of the users. Ohh, dealing with master fletched faewood arrows are pain... because you only invested 300k to get my 5x longbow that I never need to upgrade ever... Whereas the THW user just had to invest 60s7y7m into a 10x greataxe... but you're getting the same AS benefit for a lower investment. If dealing with arrows is that bad, invest in a 10x bow. Enchanting potions will be available next Duskruin!

6x Bow + e-bladed arrows... I mean what its... 6/10 classes have access to MnE? And if you're one of those classes that don't have access to it, you're probably a ranger, and you can always give spells to ANY of the other classes for endless e-blades. And unlike conventional weapon users, you can just stockpile asstons of bundles of arrows to have an ungodly amount of attacks, while still getting full potency of your bow's benefits.

Warrior Quivers make the bundles weightless if you put less than... What is it, 33 or 66 arrows in a stack? Making any argument for carrying around X arrows null and void.

A lot of the arrow management problems is a function of a cheap and short sighted playerbase. I've sold dozens of 5x fusion longbows at 5m each, but I had incredibly low turnover rates for 6x fusion longbow at 10m... Given the additional time it takes to do a 6x cast, and a general decrease in money/time, I kept pumping out 5x fusion longbows rather than 6x. Archers bitch about arrow management until they're faced with a decision to invest in a better bow to make arrow management easier. An investment in a weapon that THW/Polearm/One Hander users laugh at.

[megadeth]

I've been ranged warmaging for a while now. I can imagine a crossbow is more of a pain than a bow. Using arrows isn't too bad if you have a 6x bow. Using a 6x bow, just buy a stack of arrows before the hunt and throw an eblade on them then fire and forgot. If you're doing that, the commands are rather simple. CTRL+F is get 1 arrow from my quiver and fire. Gathering and bundling is really the only pain in utilizing ranged combat imo.

On a side note, ebows make ranged life a whole lot easier.

[Palcron]

An additional benefit for using actual arrows: the way that disarm mechanics work, if you have an arrow in hand, it will get disarmed first instead of your bow.

[Maerit]

I've been ranged warmaging for a while now. I can imagine a crossbow is more of a pain than a bow.

I did a bunch of testing with crossbows, and it wasn't terrible due to the +30AS and higher DF from the heavy crossbow. Of course, the only crossbow worth using - ever - is a mechanical crossbow because of the flat 2s RT for cocking the weapon (regardless of stats or encumbrance). With a warmage using a good script, you could cock + kneel + fire in 2 seconds. Now, the +30 AS and additional DF isn't likely to double the damage you could deal with a bow, but it should kill something in a few shots less.

The biggest advantage here is the very small amount of air lore required (~10 ranks) to minimize RT to 2 seconds.

Using a long bow, as a comparison, will require substantial air lore training and high STR stat to bring the RT down to 2s and you'll probably need to be around level 60+ to get the RT down to 1s.

Also, I believe (though cannot remember exactly) that crossbows are easier to aim than bows? Useful to consider for warmagery since wizards are worse at aiming their shots when compared to other viable ranged weapons users. You may be able to kill something faster if you can reliably hit it in the eye (and +30 AS helps compensate for only being able to 1x in ranged weapons) more frequently.

There is a useful benefit to using a mechanical crossbow for a 608 sniping Ranger.

When you cast 608, you're put into Cast RT. During this time you cannot FIRE a weapon (bow), but you CAN cock a crossbow. So, you're not losing any time with the initial cock of the weapon since you can cock the crossbow immediately after casting 608. Mechanical crossbows do not pull you from stealth. Neither does kneeling. Firing a crossbow is 2s RT or 3s aimed RT. Firing a longbow is 3s RT or 4s aimed RT (assuming fully trained with sufficient stats to fire the weapon this fast). So, for a ranger, you actually shave off 1s RT in the initial 608 attack. Plus, you're going to have higher DF and higher AS (if you chose to kneel).

Of course the biggest drawback to the crossbow is the slightly lower DS and choosing to kneel for the bonus to AS will further reduce your DS.

[Amerek]

I have been using a self-ammo permablessed crossbow for Reim, and it works surprisingly well. Once you get used to the timing, the DF advantage allows you to somewhat compensate for the long cocking roundtimes. For mobs that you can crit, it often only requires one shot to the eyeballs.

[Whirlin]

Of course the biggest draw back to the crossbow is the slightly lower DS and choosing to kneel for the bonus to AS will further reduce your DS.

More than slight, it's about a 20% reduction across the board for stance modifier in the ranged parry equation versus a bow. A ranger can probably get away with the reduced DS contribution, but warmages actually have it rough on the DS side, especially in the 70+ range. That being said, I will agree that a mechanical crossbow, loading multiple bolt crossbows/whatnot, brings that weapon subclass into a realm of reasonableness that it was never a part of before. However, that's also at the cost of the script slot which could also be used towards something like Fusion, which would make bows more powerful once again.

Personally, it was always the quantity of actions that got me, especially before Lich/premium... take 1 bolt, load bolt, kneel, fire... you may only have 1 typed line ahead... etc... so you'd end up needing to spam it, or put it into two actions, then stand/cock, rinse repeat.

[Jhynnifer]

The biggest issues I found, and what prompted me to go self-ammo is the ammo management. As a member of Voln I was forced to keep both regular and blessed arrows with me. And nothing... NOTHING is more annoying than running into issue with blessed arrows suddenly not bundling. Oh, you didn't use the same cleric to bless these arrows?! TOO BAD, start another bundle. Arrows being lost in the environs, moved to another room or the ever fun "arrow is out of reach" message is not only time-consuming, it's not something I felt confident in fumbling with in places like the Scatter and (eventually) SoS.

The whole, "keeping an arrow in your hand disarm business"... given that you rarely run around with an arrow in your hand, you spend more time in any given battle in RT (and not with an arrow in your hand) than you do holding one. The "benefit" of this is negligible, IMO.

I don't think simu should remove the ammo component to bows. I think they should address the issue with ammo management, get rid of "losing arrows" and make them bundle more easily.

[Maerit]

More than slight, it's about a 20% reduction across the board for stance modifier in the ranged parry equation versus a bow.

I imagine it scales as you level. I've only warmaged with a crossbow in the 20s. It was advantageous because 2s RT with the crossbow was better than the 3-5s (gnome) I could get with a bow due to the very high air lore requirements to reduce ranged weapon RT.

However, looking at the formula, it doesn't seem like it's that significant. The difference in offensive stance and defensive stance based on the formula for a level 70 warmage (assuming 1x in ranged, 2x in perception, 0 ranks in ambush w/ 5x bow or crossbow)

Bow Parry DS bonus = 138 (defensive) @ level 100 = 166
Bow Parry DS bonus = 46 (offensive) @ level 100 = 55

XBow Parry DS bonus = 127 (defensive) @ level 100 = 150
XBow Parry DS bonus = 41 (offensive) @ level 100 = 50

Am I doing my math wrong? That doesn't seem like a significant difference, so maybe I'm missing something.

[Riltus]

I imagine it scales as you level. I've only warmaged with a crossbow in the 20s. It was advantageous because 2s RT with the crossbow was better than the 3-5s (gnome) I could get with a bow due to the very high air lore requirements to reduce ranged weapon RT.

However, looking at the formula, it doesn't seem like it's that significant. The difference in offensive stance and defensive stance based on the formula for a level 70 warmage (assuming 1x in ranged, 2x in perception, 0 ranks in ambush w/ 5x bow or crossbow)

Bow Parry DS bonus = 138 (defensive) @ level 100 = 166
Bow Parry DS bonus = 46 (offensive) @ level 100 = 55

XBow Parry DS bonus = 127 (defensive) @ level 100 = 150
XBow Parry DS bonus = 41 (offensive) @ level 100 = 50

Am I doing my math wrong? That doesn't seem like a significant difference, so maybe I'm missing something.

You're using Ranged Ranks instead of the Ranged Skill Bonus in the above calculations.

Corrected Values:

Bow Parry DS bonus = 183 (defensive) @ level 100 = 210
Bow Parry DS bonus = 61 (offensive) @ level 100 = 70

XBow Parry DS bonus = 163 (defensive) @ level 100 = 186
XBow Parry DS bonus = 53 (offensive) @ level 100 = 61

Mark

[Whirlin]

I imagine it scales as you level. I've only warmaged with a crossbow in the 20s. It was advantageous because 2s RT with the crossbow was better than the 3-5s (gnome) I could get with a bow due to the very high air lore requirements to reduce ranged weapon RT.

Am I doing my math wrong? That doesn't seem like a significant difference, so maybe I'm missing something.

Yes, I'd say it makes sense at low levels when your air lore sucks. That level range you can get away with pretty much anything.

66 ranks to aim a longbow in 1s with a 5 STR bonus. Given the other benefits observed at 55 ranks of Air Lore (RT reduction on all even-based RT stackers), It's not that far beyond my normal air lore recommendations. But, 60+ is the level range is when you have DS concerns.

I enchanted my bow to 7x, wore 7x armor, and still needed outside spells/statues to hunt from about 60 to 90 (this was with emphasis on WIZ over MjE for more DS). Given that Mages basically snowball death when they're hittable, every point of DS is necessary. Sure, maybe a little less with 520... but getting hit as a wizard is always bad!

8 DS doesn't sound like a bit... but the base DS contribution isn't that high either. And if you've done what you can, +8 DS sells for tons!