Precendent to remove Enchanting Services

[Maerit]

Due to the argument on wizard abilities being more freely offered, we are officially retiring the enchanting certificates from Duskruin, permanently.

This is the official stance and precedent being set by DR. Apparently the "wizard population" (which I believe is just Fleurs) is in an uproar over the fact that players can purchase enchanting services, but not forging upgrades or ensorcells, and that somehow diminishes the value of a wizard's ability to enchant (925) items.

When in reality, no wizard can enchant padded or weighted equipment. They also cannot enchant various metals, and most of the useful flaring options. This means, for ~25m+ (below 7x), you could add a single enchant to equipment that is not otherwise enchantable - and that is somehow offending wizards.

So, I wanted to poll the community to see just how many people believe this is a good direction for the game. If this precedent is set, then next it may no longer be available via PPs. After all, you can't upgrade the forging or add ensorcell through premium points either.

[time4fun]

As soon as I read the post, I was like "Freak out coming in 3....2.....1...."

Congrats on being the 1.

I had planned on getting an enchant cert, but I'm not going to lose my mind over this. I get both sides of this argument.

It's not like you don't have other ways to get things enchanted. Most of my stuff is cheaper to enchant with premium points honestly.

[Fallen]

They need to go the other way with it. Offer all services, but price them in such a way that it isn't really competitive to a player-based service. Same with Locksmithing.

[BriarFox]

They need to go the other way with it. Offer all services, but price them in such a way that it isn't really competitive to a player enchant. Same with Locksmithing.

Yep. 25m for an enchant was already pretty solid in terms of C/B ratio.

[Wyrom]

Kudos to you creating a poll with actual real data gathering, instead of the garbage like taco.

[Maerit]

It's not like you don't have other ways to get things enchanted. Most of my stuff is cheaper to enchant with premium points honestly.

Until the precedent shifts and enchanting disappears from PP options because neither of the other services it's being compared with (player forging and ensorcell) are offered there either. Not to mention the scarcity of PPs for enchanting big projects. Many items under 7x are definitely worth enchanting with the DR certificate when compared to the cost of PPs, and are still not eligible for player enchanting.

I'm mostly interested in how much of the community is actually backing the precedent being set by this example. The freak-out is contained to the fact that I don't play a character that really needs a lot of DS, so while the service would have been appreciated, I don't think that +5DS is going to really matter to my gaming experience. It does bother me that Fleurs has been able to effectively badger the community into supporting ridiculous changes for the sake of "protecting wizard abilities".

[Fallen]

Kudos to you creating a poll with actual real data gathering, instead of the garbage like taco.

The problem is the poll isn't public, so it could be easily flooded with throw away accounts to sway the vote.

[Mogonis]

Shit. I need to get Fleurs to remove me from her blacklist and lobby her to badger Simu into letting warriors 3x weapons and CM. She is very effective.

[Wyrom]

The problem is the poll isn't public, so it could be easily flooded with throw away accounts to sway the vote.

This one is beyond anything to get changed. This is something we're working toward in general. There are just some more updates in general to come.

[Maerit]

The problem is the poll isn't public, so it could be easily flooded with throw away accounts to sway the vote.

Can I edit that after the fact? I don't believe the poll results in anything more than opinion here, but I also wouldn't want to see it spammed by alt forum accounts.

[Fallen]

This one is beyond anything to get changed. This is something we're working toward in general. There are just some more updates in general to come.

Looks like a super popular move judging from the poll.

[Maerit]

This one is beyond anything to get changed. This is something we're working toward in general. There are just some more updates in general to come.

Believe me, I would not mind this change at all if players could actually do something with the majority of the gear being enchanted with services at DR. It would be interesting to know exactly what the enchanting certs were used on in past runs. I would only bother with it for padded / weighted items that would otherwise be impossible to get enchanted. I'd be curious if anyone has considered the implications (balance wise) for allowing wizards to enchant padded / weighted gear provided sufficient training and lore similar to how these items can be ensorcelled. Like you'd never have the skill to enchant a claidhmore, but someone with 300 wizard ranks and 100 ranks in a lore could enchant something with superb crit weighting.

[Androidpk]

instead of the garbage like taco.

heresy!

[Wyrom]

Believe me, I would not mind this change at all if players could actually do something with the majority of the gear being enchanted with services at DR. It would be interesting to know exactly what the enchanting certs were used on in past runs. I would only bother with it for padded / weighted items that would otherwise be impossible to get enchanted.

Someone enchanted a 9x blessable weapon last run. That's the only one I recall. Only 3 enchant certificates sold total in August. Only 5 in April.

[Mogonis]

Honestly, I think it's the last word of the statement that's fueling the freakout.

Permanently

[Taernath]

If this precedent is set, then next it may no longer be available via PPs. After all, you can't upgrade the forging or add ensorcell through premium points either.

There's a difference between adding something that wasn't available previously, and removing something that's been there for years. I very, very much doubt they will remove a core PP functionality like that (premium bank books notwithstanding).

[Gelston]

The official website used to have polls on it every so often. Should bring those back.

[Wyrom]

Honestly, I think it's the last word of the statement that's fueling the freakout.

Permanently

Yes, certificates in general are being removed from Duskruin in future runs. We want things to be handled automatically. Not manually. So you will never see an enchant certificate again at Duskruin.

[Whirlin]

I just wish enchanting potions were more readily available to make the enchanting cert prices more astronomical by comparison. I realize that under ideal circumstances, the pots do come with 40 pours, so you could get 5/4/4 out of a 8/9/10x potion. But even so, most people are really only looking for a single item at a time, so 10 pours per potion would increase the sales!

Enchanting Certs don't bother me... I just wish the pots were cheaper! Especially with the single project opportunity cost and time investment required for the process relative to the benefit of the instant certifications.

[Maerit]

There's a difference between adding something that wasn't available previously, and removing something that's been there for years. I very, very much doubt they will remove a core PP functionality like that (premium bank books notwithstanding).

Absolutely! But this quote does start to creep in that direction:


We have never did this to tread on wizard abilities, while protecting other profession abilities. Enchant offerings have occurred due to 25 years of precedence, but we realize we need to start somewhere.

Hopefully you're right, and hopefully SIMU doesn't have any plans to eventually remove enchanting. I'm guessing it will be restrained to DR, and maybe we can pray for additional improvements to enchanting more items! That would be incredible.

[Wrathbringer]

I'll go ahead and voice what everyone is thinking: Thanks, fluers, you retarded bitch.

[tacos]

Kudos to you creating a poll with actual real data gathering, instead of the garbage like taco.

FUCK YOU, MAN. FFFUUUUCCCKK YOU!!!!!!!!

http://www.magiccabin.com/getDynamicImage.aspx?width=600&height=660&path=868007_MCSU17W_JS_02_1.jpg

[Wyrom]

Dinosaur taco holder is pretty cool.

[Allereli]

Someone enchanted a 9x blessable weapon last run. That's the only one I recall. Only 3 enchant certificates sold total in August. Only 5 in April.

I ET'd my MCP armor at some point last year, probably April. A wizard isn't going to do that with potions

[Whirlin]

I ET'd my MCP armor at some point last year, probably April. A wizard isn't going to do that with potions
...yet

[Peppwyn]

I'm glad I didn't go out and purchase those simucoins this morning. This just saved me hundreds of dollars.

[Gelston]

My personal feeling is that it should be made easier to create epicly awesome weapons, rather than making it harder. You have a lot of options but enchanting has always sorta been a corner stone of that. This isn't the '90s or the 2000's anymore. This game is old and I firmly believe it is folk's investment into their items that keeps them here. Just my two cents though.

[Neovik1]

They need to go the other way with it. Offer all services, but price them in such a way that it isn't really competitive to a player-based service. Same with Locksmithing.

Who needs to waste millions of experience on picking when you can wedge/pop/bash and 125 all your boxes opened? Heck we even have keys...

[Gelston]

Who needs to waste millions of experience on picking when you can wedge/pop/bash and 125 all your boxes opened? Heck we even have keys...

And, you know... the locksmith that has always existed.

[Neovik1]

And, you know... the locksmith that has always existed.

Yeah... 2 out of every 10 boxes I can't get usually go to that bastard. That might be different if I get 125 though or if I decide to be brave with 408...

[Gelston]

Yeah... 2 out of every 10 boxes I can't get usually go to that bastard. That might be different if I get 125 though or if I decide to be brave with 408...

Make sure to 125 them in the park after announcing massies.

[time4fun]

Yep. 25m for an enchant was already pretty solid in terms of C/B ratio.

Meh. It starts at 25. A few folks get it for a decent price. it was up over 50k by the end last time, I believe. At that point, PPs are usually the better buy.

[beldannon5]

Boo wyrom was thinking about taking my 6x to 7x :(

[Maerit]

Meh. It starts at 25. A few folks get it for a decent price. it was up over 50k by the end last time, I believe. At that point, PPs are usually the better buy.

It would require that 8 people buy the certificate for it to grow to over 50kBS. So if only 3 and 5 sold in previous runs where it was available, I don't think it would be possible to achieve that price point.

Though maybe it happened in the one where the prices were not reset? They probably rarely (if at all) sold in that run. I recall enchanting services selling for sick silvers from the auction.

[time4fun]

Until the precedent shifts and enchanting disappears from PP options because neither of the other services it's being compared with (player forging and ensorcell) are offered there either. Not to mention the scarcity of PPs for enchanting big projects. Many items under 7x are definitely worth enchanting with the DR certificate when compared to the cost of PPs, and are still not eligible for player enchanting.

I'm mostly interested in how much of the community is actually backing the precedent being set by this example. The freak-out is contained to the fact that I don't play a character that really needs a lot of DS, so while the service would have been appreciated, I don't think that +5DS is going to really matter to my gaming experience. It does bother me that Fleurs has been able to effectively badger the community into supporting ridiculous changes for the sake of "protecting wizard abilities".

I wish I could give you better things to worry about in your life.

If they make a cert for that, I'll buy it for you.

Seriously- relax.

[Wyrom]

To be clear, since this was mentioned on the officials, the enchant certificates weren't a "enchant anything your heart desires" pass. Some stuff would certainly get rejected. Only ~.01% of all Duskruin attendees (across all instances) bought into enchanting since 2015.

[time4fun]

It would require that 8 people buy the certificate for it to grow to over 50kBS. So if only 3 and 5 sold in previous runs where it was available, I don't think it would be possible to achieve that price point.

Though maybe it happened in the one where the prices were not reset? They probably rarely (if at all) sold in that run. I recall enchanting services selling for sick silvers from the auction.

Actually, according to the wiki it started at 50k last run.

In April of 2016 it started at 25k and ended at 71k

So seriously- relax.

(I believe Wyrom was referring to the major enchant chits btw, not the minor).

[Maerit]

To be clear, since this was mentioned on the officials, the enchant certificates weren't a "enchant anything your heart desires" pass. Some stuff would certainly get rejected. Only ~.01% of all Duskruin attendees (across all instances) bought into enchanting since 2015.

C'mon man... what percentage of DR participants purchased the mana flares? They're returning, and I would wager the percentage that bought them last run was similar to enchanting. Once the certs or items reach a certain point, people realize the diminishing returns and save their BS for the next run instead.

[Neovik1]

To be clear, since this was mentioned on the officials, the enchant certificates weren't a "enchant anything your heart desires" pass. Some stuff would certainly get rejected. Only ~.01% of all Duskruin attendees (across all instances) bought into enchanting since 2015.


If we just look at plat population what would that percentage be? :)

[ArchSenex]

I just wish enchanting potions were more readily available to make the enchanting cert prices more astronomical by comparison. I realize that under ideal circumstances, the pots do come with 40 pours, so you could get 5/4/4 out of a 8/9/10x potion. But even so, most people are really only looking for a single item at a time, so 10 pours per potion would increase the sales!

Enchanting Certs don't bother me... I just wish the pots were cheaper! Especially with the single project opportunity cost and time investment required for the process relative to the benefit of the instant certifications.

Honestly, I agree here. I'm fine with Enchanting services ceasing to be a merchant service, in light of the fact that you can no longer fry items, but it should also come paired with the ability to enchant items that were previously un-enchantable, such as weighted or padded items. Now I'm not saying it should be easy, just like ensorcelling a massive weapon of doom is hard. So yeah, I absolutely get encouraging the player economy of wizards by no longer having certs, BUT that 925 needs to be expanded to cover the gap.


Edit: And that potions are more available to compensate

[chalion]

Fuck me running. Can't change the armor I have into the armor I can use, and now I can't even fucking enchant it from 3x to 4x with extra scrip. It's like that perfect mixture of a kick in the dick and spit in the eye.

[sentral]

It in no way dimishes the value of 925 because I doubt someone would spend blood to enchant something that can be done so by a player! Its like winning an enchant raffle and picking a plain 6x item to go to 7x!

[Wrathbringer]

If we just look at plat population what would that percentage be? :)

There's like three people there. You do the math.

[Whirlin]

Btw, You all also suck at reading between the lines in Wyrom's posts.

[Wrathbringer]

Btw, You all also suck at reading between the lines in Wyrom's posts.

Some of us are tired of having to read between the lines to get information. Just say it already.

[Omrii]

To be clear, since this was mentioned on the officials, the enchant certificates weren't a "enchant anything your heart desires" pass. Some stuff would certainly get rejected. Only ~.01% of all Duskruin attendees (across all instances) bought into enchanting since 2015.

Damn I'm the .01%? I bought enchanting every run and would've bought it more often if not for the 1 service per item rule.

--Omrii

[Hips]

Damn I'm the .01%? I bought enchanting every run and would've bought it more often if not for the 1 service per item rule.

--Omrii

What he said. Bought it every run, would have bought more to max my items, but you set a service per item limit.

[ArchSenex]

Damn I'm the .01%? I bought enchanting every run and would've bought it more often if not for the 1 service per item rule.

--Omrii

Given that ~.01% would mean that only 1 in 10,000 people purchased the service, either there's a LOT more people out there than I realized, or you're a lot less of a person than you might think.

And yes, I realize the original comment was a hyperbole. It just amused me.

[Roblar]

Some of us are tired of having to read between the lines to get information. Just say it already.

He said the manual enchanting is done, for Duskruin.

It is implied that the next run will see automated, tiered costs for enchanting and other services. Much like Summit Academy introduced for enhancive, verbs, spell preps, swears I'd think.

Specifically here, on page 2:


Yes, certificates in general are being removed from Duskruin in future runs. We want things to be handled automatically. Not manually. So you will never see an enchant certificate again at Duskruin.

[Neovik1]

There's like three people there. You do the math.

Wow the population must have went up.

[Omrii]

Given that ~.01% would mean that only 1 in 10,000 people purchased the service, either there's a LOT more people out there than I realized, or you're a lot less of a person than you might think.

And yes, I realize the original comment was a hyperbole. It just amused me.

woohoo... weightloss, wait no that doesn't apply.

[beldannon5]

how bout next time take a poll seeing how many people were thinking about doing an enchant cert this time before removing it because of a few vocal people. I have no issue with the vocal person, but I am sad to see it go even for this time around. Trying to get what people want is an awesome idea Wyrom, taking away something because you think it's not going to sell this time isn't!

[beldannon5]

this won't effect me wasting my money on books of course, because well I have too

[Wyrom]

Platinum sales, not the games that we played or auction we held, were minimal. Let's not forget how we did things in 2016 over there. And the majority of players were part of the beta testing that accumulated 30,000+ slips and tokens.

[Velfi]

Kudos to you creating a poll with actual real data gathering, instead of the garbage like taco.

What the fuck is this shit

[Orthin]

how bout next time take a poll seeing how many people were thinking about doing an enchant cert this time before removing it because of a few vocal people. I have no issue with the vocal person, but I am sad to see it go even for this time around. Trying to get what people want is an awesome idea Wyrom, taking away something because you think it's not going to sell this time isn't!

I think there was a post on the officials about asking what people wanted at the next installment of duskruin. I guess because it was there prior people assumed but never hurts to say I hope you keep such and such because I couldn't buy it last time!

[Omrii]

I benefitted from the beta testing (perhaps not to the degree of some) and I appreciate that. I think I accumulated 200-250k by the grace of the beta testing. That said, I am the nutjob in Plat who buys $1k packages of Simucoin to play Duskruin.

[Orthin]

I benefitted from the beta testing (perhaps not to the degree of some) and I appreciate that. I think I accumulated 200-250k by the grace of the beta testing. That said, I am the nutjob in Plat who buys $1k packages of Simucoin to play Duskruin.

And I thought $200 was egregious! I respect and am jealous of your hustle!

[beldannon5]

In all honesty I didn't figure enchanting would go away since it's almost impossible to enchant a lot of stuff.

That's what I get for thinking I suppose!

[Whirlin]

If only we could harvest all the salt in the thread here and on the officials, the alchemy shop would never need to sell another flask or vial.

[Maerit]

The only thing that "triggers" me (right Vish?), is that the change was announced due to "wizard abilities being more freely offered", which is clearly not representative of the wizard or gemstone community since no wizard ability can enchant the type of equipment you would spend 25mil (or more) to enchant. If enchanting is being removed, so it can be offered via a better method (like scaling costs based on the item in an automated method, or improving 925 to enchant more items), that would be a much better reason.

Vocal minorities should not drive the direction of the game and what the game offers for the less vocal majority.

[Wyrom]

The only thing that "triggers" me (right Vish?), is that the change was announced due to "wizard abilities being more freely offered", which is clearly not representative of the wizard or gemstone community since no wizard ability can enchant the type of equipment you would spend 25mil (or more) to enchant. If enchanting is being removed, so it can be offered via a better method (like scaling costs based on the item in an automated method, or improving 925 to enchant more items), that would be a much better reason.

Vocal minorities should not drive the direction of the game and what the game offers for the less vocal majority.

We get hit with enchant offerings all the time and not by the same people. While it's easy to pick out the vocal minority, because they are vocal, there are others who quietly bring it up to the proper channels.

It's frustrating to me, because I just have to waste my time changing things all the time. Either way, we are trying to move entirely away from certificates anyway, as they are time consuming and don't really aid the middle of the road people too much. If we could have removed them this run, we would have. I have confidence we should by August.

And Whirlin's comment probably should be considered. Maybe.

[chalion]

The only thing that "triggers" me (right Vish?), is that the change was announced due to "wizard abilities being more freely offered", which is clearly not representative of the wizard or gemstone community since no wizard ability can enchant the type of equipment you would spend 25mil (or more) to enchant. If enchanting is being removed, so it can be offered via a better method (like scaling costs based on the item in an automated method, or improving 925 to enchant more items), that would be a much better reason.

Vocal minorities should not drive the direction of the game and what the game offers for the less vocal majority.

The problem is they only have a limited source of feedback: The forums (which is a minority of people posting for various reasons between officials and PC), direct email, and in game sales/figures of what players are doing. The last one is the biggest and should drive the decisions more so than any other form of feedback, unless the response is overwhelmingly the same across the board. And it seems like thats usually how they do things, more than once GMs have responded with "we have the logs, its like 2 people doing a thing" and the arguement is dropped. Giving the benefit of the doubt that the information is valid and collected properly, we have to take that on face value. The problem is what information is being collected and how its being interpretted. For example, sales of DR and other microtransaction events are said to be on the rise, that means that more scrip or other currencies are in circulation. So how is it being spent? Is it evenly distributed in the sense that people are keeping and using it for themselves, or selling it off for silvers or are they just squirrelling it away for some amazing offering down the line?

Without access to that information we can only make guesses as to what players are doing, based on our own experiences and feedback from other players (a minority, but vocal source). That being said, one of the most common themes is "I can only spend/earn/get so much BS per run, I had to make a choice, but this is/was my second choice" followed by "I have one item I want work on but can only do 1 thing to it at a time (I had this issue last run)" and also a mixture of "I didnt see anything I wanted, I wanted X Y Z service".

So, the question is, what is the data actually saying? Is the BS all starting to pool on a handful of accounts? Are there lots of people sitting around with 20k + BS ? Keep in mind, that unless you are running the arena, 20k+ BS is around $200 investment. Most people I'd imagine are buying in at $100 or less, maybe even as high as $50 as the player population tends to be on the wealthier side (grown up with full time jobs) but that tends to push down hours available (families to tend to) so they might not have the time to put any more money to use, given the time it takes to run the arena, or even the time investment in sewers.

So the high end scrip shop may very well be a very selective (minority) group who probably overlap fairly well with the vocal minority that posts (but certainly not fully).
Or I could be entirely off base.

[Astray]

instead of the garbage like taco.

We got a problem, bro? We can take this outside.

[Maerit]

It's frustrating to me, because I just have to waste my time changing things all the time. Either way, we are trying to move entirely away from certificates anyway, as they are time consuming and don't really aid the middle of the road people too much. If we could have removed them this run, we would have. I have confidence we should by August.


I would not under-value your contribution to the game and the direction it has gone over the years. It's a constant balancing act, and most of us appreciate the effort put forth. There are times, however, that changes are not reflective of the community, but rather reflective of individuals that are very VERY loud. Those times are incredibly irritating to players, like myself, when the change deviates away from what seems "logical".

This service would definitely threaten the value of 925 - if - you could enchant most items with the spell. Similar to how ensorcell can be used on "most" items. That's just not the case. Which brings out the crazies, like myself, who prefer decisions to be made based on reasons, and not opinions from a someone shouting really loud.

It seems like there are more, less verbalized, reasons for the change. Unfortunately no official statement can be made at this time...

[Omrii]

We get hit with enchant offerings all the time and not by the same people. While it's easy to pick out the vocal minority, because they are vocal, there are others who quietly bring it up to the proper channels.

It's frustrating to me, because I just have to waste my time changing things all the time. Either way, we are trying to move entirely away from certificates anyway, as they are time consuming and don't really aid the middle of the road people too much. If we could have removed them this run, we would have. I have confidence we should by August.

And Whirlin's comment probably should be considered. Maybe.

Thanks Wyrom. I usually take my random issues to email with no expectation of real time response which you damn near provide. For what it's worth, happy you're in that position. I actually do not like being a pest to staff.

[Wyrom]

I would not under-value your contribution to the game and the direction it has gone over the years. It's a constant balancing act, and most of us appreciate the effort put forth. There are times, however, that changes are not reflective of the community, but rather reflective of individuals that are very VERY loud. Those times are incredibly irritating to players, like myself, when the change deviates away from what seems "logical".

This service would definitely threaten the value of 925 - if - you could enchant most items with the spell. Similar to how ensorcell can be used on "most" items. That's just not the case. Which brings out the crazies, like myself, who prefer decisions to be made based on reasons, and not opinions from a someone shouting really loud.

:thinking:

Anyone else think he's a cyclops? I always do.

[beldannon5]

Maerit makes good points. So many times we or i ask ourselves what in the blue hell are they thinking.

[Reagan]

I only have the time/funds to get one decent service in the 25k-50k range per run. So essentially i saved for the next run. I did not plan on utilizing the enchanting this year but at some point wanted to enchant something to 8x. I did however save for the padding for this run. Any word on that?

[Roblar]

Maerit makes good points. So many times we or i ask ourselves what in the blue hell are they thinking.

Chalion too, in that wall of text :/

[chalion]

Chalion too, in that wall of text :/

I HAVE A WORD QUOTA I NEED TO MEET EVERY DAY!
It's not easy being bat shit insane!

[Astray]

So... was there a poll or anything on the Simu website about this?

[ArchSenex]

I HAVE A WORD QUOTA I NEED TO MEET EVERY DAY!
It's not easy being bat shit insane!

Worst. Speed. Movie. Ever.

[time4fun]

Thanks Wyrom. I usually take my random issues to email with no expectation of real time response which you damn near provide. For what it's worth, happy you're in that position. I actually do not like being a pest to staff.

Agreed.

I work with customers for a living, and I try to be the customer I want to deal with. Sometimes that means just having to say "It's not all about me" when I'm not in love with a particular change.

Customers only have to think about themselves. Vendors have to think about everyone. And in gaming, players want power but, GMs want balance.

That's why they don't always see eye to eye.

[Wrathbringer]

Agreed.

I work with customers for a living, and I try to be the customer I want to deal with. Sometimes that means just having to say "It's not all about me" when I'm not in love with a particular change.

Customers only have to think about themselves. Vendors have to think about everyone. And in gaming, players want power but GMs want balance.

That's why they don't always see eye to eye.

Stfu. Thanks.

[beldannon5]

I don't mind not seeing eye to eye its when its eye to toe that its a problem

[Allereli]

So... was there a poll or anything on the Simu website about this?

yes, but someone messed up and put tacos in as an option and Wyrom threw out the data.

[Fallen]

yes, but someone messed up and put tacos in as an option and Wyrom threw out the data.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Allereli again.

[Velfi]

yes, but someone messed up and put tacos in as an option and Wyrom threw out the data.

http://i.imgur.com/cn2zUFA.jpg

[drauz]

Kudos to you creating a poll with actual real data gathering, instead of the garbage like taco.

http://i.imgur.com/hcEAyNZ.gif

[Soulance]

I just wish enchanting potions were more readily available to make the enchanting cert prices more astronomical by comparison. I realize that under ideal circumstances, the pots do come with 40 pours, so you could get 5/4/4 out of a 8/9/10x potion. But even so, most people are really only looking for a single item at a time, so 10 pours per potion would increase the sales!

Enchanting Certs don't bother me... I just wish the pots were cheaper! Especially with the single project opportunity cost and time investment required for the process relative to the benefit of the instant certifications.
Potions and time it takes per pour. Two ridiculous items depending. I understand it keeps the amount of high enchant weapons down, but it is a very lengthy time.

It seems like there's always plenty of business for enchants out there if you want it. I have no problems finding work for my wizard. I just don't like his low lore training ability. Should be 3x.

[Amerek]

Taking enchanting off the board does not make *any* sense. Are you going to remove it from one of the premium benefits as well? Because wizards?

Enchanting (the spell 925) is broken - so fix it.

In general, taking things away from this game does *not* make it more enjoyable. Adding things to the game does.

(And don't say breakage or disarm, since those are mechanisms to take away my weapons)

[Wyrom]

http://i.imgur.com/hcEAyNZ.gif

I know I've said this before, but your .jifs are wonderful.

[chalion]

I know I've said this before, but your .jifs are wonderful.

I will not take troll bait...

[Tisket]

Kudos to you creating a poll with actual real data gathering, instead of the garbage like taco.

Leave tacos alone.

[Tgo01]

I know I've said this before, but your .jifs are wonderful.

Alright, Wyrom. I held my tongue during this whole 925 debacle.

I even stood idly by while you desecrated our time honored tradition of including Tacos as a poll option.

But trying to pronounce the word as JIFs? That's just one atrocity I can't let slide.

[Wyrom]

Taking enchanting off the board does not make *any* sense. Are you going to remove it from one of the premium benefits as well? Because wizards?

Enchanting (the spell 925) is broken - so fix it.

In general, taking things away from this game does *not* make it more enjoyable. Adding things to the game does.

(And don't say breakage or disarm, since those are mechanisms to take away my weapons)

For now, it's being removed from the table at this event. It will continued to be discussed on how we want to address it in other areas.

[beldannon5]

Still shaking my head about this Wyrom. One person says stuff and you make changes to a list you posted and remove enchanting. Just doesnt seem right. What do i know though I don't have your expertise.

I am sure this event will be a blast, just never thought I would see enchanting go away that just seems REALLY REALLY DUMB with all the restrictions. But like i said I don't have your "expertise" :)

[crb]

The problem is the poll isn't public, so it could be easily flooded with throw away accounts to sway the vote.

No one cares that much.

[time4fun]

Still shaking my head about this Wyrom. One person says stuff and you make changes to a list you posted and remove enchanting. Just doesnt seem right.

Which is how you know that's almost assuredly NOT the reason for the change ;)

[Wyrom]

I know right, players said bring back Splitters and VolnArmor and we did. Crazy times we live in when we listen to feedback.

[neimanz1]

I know right, players said bring back Splitters and VolnArmor and we did. Crazy times we live in when we listen to feedback.

bring returners!!!

[drauz]

I know right, players said bring back Splitters and VolnArmor and we did. Crazy times we live in when we listen to feedback.

Can you do tiers for voln armor? A 0-1 tier, 1-2 tier, etc. With the BS price increasing for each tier.

[cwolff]

I know right, players said bring back Splitters and VolnArmor and we did. Crazy times we live in when we listen to feedback.

To be fair the voln armor tier up was listed for something like 176,000 bs. At that price you should just let people buy it whenever they want to stroke a check.

[Androidpk]

Crazy times we live in when we listen to feedback.

:lol:

[Wyrom]

Can you do tiers for voln armor? A 0-1 tier, 1-2 tier, etc. With the BS price increasing for each tier.

Yeah, I've mentioned this in a few places now. But it's really hard to nail down a price tier that works. And then manually doing something like that could be intense. It's something that has and is being discussed.

[time4fun]

Hey folks- I'm just going to point out that every minute Wyrom has to spend replying to the whining posts of a few vocal people is a minute not being spent on the actual event. Or- gasp- resting before a long weekend where you're going to want the GMs rested.

So just let this go and let's all focus on the other 99.99% of awesomeness at Duskruin (and let the GMs get back to working on said awesomeness)

[Velfi]

Hey folks- I'm just going to point out that every minute Wyrom has to spend replying to the whining posts of a few vocal people is a minute not being spent on the actual event. Or- gasp- resting before a long weekend where you're going to want the GMs rested.

So just let this go and let's all focus on the other 99.99% of awesomeness at Duskruin (and let the GMs get back to working on said awesomeness)

http://i.imgur.com/U1jczAS.jpg

[Mogonis]

Hey folks- I'm just going to point out that every minute Wyrom has to spend replying to the whining posts of a few vocal people is a minute not being spent on the actual event. Or- gasp- resting before a long weekend where you're going to want the GMs rested.

So just let this go and let's all focus on the other 99.99% of awesomeness at Duskruin (and let the GMs get back to working on said awesomeness)
https://media.giphy.com/media/QrVYYE7wD5CXm/giphy.gif

[drauz]

I think it can be tough setting the prices right because you are basically basing the prices on the "best" items. I would like to see two sets for any service. Uber and normal. Uber would be anything other than fluff scripts, regular flares (not rot,knockout,poleaxe, the script flares), enchanted, and ensorcelled. Normal would be the rest.

I imagine this is exactly what you don't want to do though since it seems the certificates are a pain for your team.

[chalion]

Hey folks- I'm just going to point out that every minute Wyrom has to spend replying to the whining posts of a few vocal people is a minute not being spent on the actual event. Or- gasp- resting before a long weekend where you're going to want the GMs rested.

So just let this go and let's all focus on the other 99.99% of awesomeness at Duskruin (and let the GMs get back to working on said awesomeness)

Except thats not at all how the event works. In fact, thats the exact OPPOSITE of what they are going for with duskruin. They want it to be automated, the only part that isn't is the epic deeps and the certificates, which they are still working on but not this run. All items would have had to have been QC'd by now to be released 2 days before, its possible they are doing finishing touches but not likely depending on the dev cycle for events. Apparently, its a huge hassle for them to setup certificates to offer services using the code they have. That and the balancing issues, but when we ask for something, Wyrom and Co are playing some fucked up game of sophie's choice that we didnt know, so we ask for a thing and he takes one thing and kinda sorta gives us what we want? But its like the monkey paw with the wishes and what we wanted ends being something completely different. (AG CHANGE!)

[Mogonis]

http://i.imgur.com/iPIZjrd.gif

HOLY SHIT, I think my new favorite Google Image search term is sassy snap meme.

[Wyrom]

I think it can be tough setting the prices right because you are basically basing the prices on the "best" items. I would like to see two sets for any service. Uber and normal. Uber would be anything other than fluff scripts, regular flares (not rot,knockout,poleaxe, the script flares), enchanted, and ensorcelled. Normal would be the rest.

I imagine this is exactly what you don't want to do though since it seems the certificates are a pain for your team.

Exactly. The pricing on certificates (for the most part) aren't fair to someone with 5x DCP armor when we have to price it for 10x MCP. We're looking at ways to handle this. And we could do something else down the road at a different venue as well.

[Tgo01]

Except thats not at all how the event works. In fact, thats the exact OPPOSITE of what they are going for with duskruin. They want it to be automated, the only part that isn't is the epic deeps and the certificates, which they are still working on but not this run. All items would have had to have been QC'd by now to be released 2 days before, its possible they are doing finishing touches but not likely depending on the dev cycle for events. Apparently, its a huge hassle for them to setup certificates to offer services using the code they have. That and the balancing issues, but when we ask for something, Wyrom and Co are playing some fucked up game of sophie's choice that we didnt know, so we ask for a thing and he takes one thing and kinda sorta gives us what we want? But its like the monkey paw with the wishes and what we wanted ends being something completely different. (AG CHANGE!)

This is why I would make a good GM. I already afk script 11 characters at once. I was born to automate GS events.

[chalion]

This is why I would make a good GM. I already afk script 11 characters at once. I was born to automate GS events.

You have my vote, as long as I get to keep heckling you. NERD!

[time4fun]

Except thats not at all how the event works. In fact, thats the exact OPPOSITE of what they are going for with duskruin. They want it to be automated, the only part that isn't is the epic deeps and the certificates, which they are still working on but not this run. All items would have had to have been QC'd by now to be released 2 days before, its possible they are doing finishing touches but not likely depending on the dev cycle for events. Apparently, its a huge hassle for them to setup certificates to offer services using the code they have. That and the balancing issues, but when we ask for something, Wyrom and Co are playing some fucked up game of sophie's choice that we didnt know, so we ask for a thing and he takes one thing and kinda sorta gives us what we want? But its like the monkey paw with the wishes and what we wanted ends being something completely different. (AG CHANGE!)


You're right, they're not doing anything right now but sitting on their thumbs whistling dixie.

[Ghost]

Yeah, I've mentioned this in a few places now. But it's really hard to nail down a price tier that works. And then manually doing something like that could be intense. It's something that has and is being discussed.

Why not do a dutch auction with quantity of each item hidden?

[drauz]

Yeah, I've mentioned this in a few places now. But it's really hard to nail down a price tier that works. And then manually doing something like that could be intense. It's something that has and is being discussed.

If I can offer my pricing suggestions:

0-1 1m/1k BS

1-2 5m/5k BS

2-3 10m/10k BS

3-4 25m/25k BS

I realize this is a pipe dream for prices given what has been charged. I would add a sign saying that anything that isn't merely enchanted/ensorcells/regular flares/fluff scripts the price would be doubled. So a full T4 would cost 41m for a "plain" item and 82m for everything else. I feel these are very fair numbers considering even with "plain" item cost you will never get your coins back directy on the "regular" or "uber" item.

[SashaFierce]

@Wyrom

My main character is a Wizard (Alastir) and yet I'm disappointed in the removal of the enchanting certificates. Especially considering the current state of wizard enchanting. I expected us to be able to enchant *everything* with the update and it was not what I was expecting at all. Enchanting a flaring weapon is kind of a joke with all the hoops to jump through, and then now that you can't destroy the item when you fail, it pushed temper times through the roof.

I was planning to enchant a 0x claidhmore I have, it's probably a waste to most people, but it's made of veniom, and has a great alteration to it, and it was worth it to me personally. The thought of giving it to some random stranger with premium points who could leave at any moment leaves a bad taste in my mouth, so it'll sit in a locker waiting for an opportunity to enchant it. Which is disappointing.

I'd like to suggest some mechanism to turn premium points into points/tickets that can be traded between characters/accounts.

I'm at a loss for what to work towards this DR run. My plans to go for MCP are gone. And now my back up to enchant the claidhmore is gone. 175k for Ironwright is only worth it if you have a 10x MCW weapon, same with the VolnCert. The prices are outrageous for a majority of the people who will participate. Hopefully the new additions are something spectacular because this may turn out to be the worst DR run yet in terms of item sales and book purchases.

[Neveragain]

There's like three people there. You do the math.

Has to be more, they just did a festival specifically for RR in plat. Considering RR's population in prime is maybe 5 people...there must be at least that many in Plat, doesn't there?


On topic: Doesn't diminish the value of enchanting at all. Of course I have had zero complaints about any of the wizard changes, I think it's cool what they are trying to do with lore's and am personally enjoying having other options than fire.

Off topic: Rogue review needed, it's a shame to see one of the most unique systems (lock smithing) GS has to offer (IMO) being diminished by town locksmiths.

[drauz]

Has to be more, they just did a festival specifically for RR in plat. Considering RR's population in prime is maybe 5 people...there must be at least that many in Plat, doesn't there?


On topic: Doesn't diminish the value of enchanting at all. Of course I have had zero complaints about any of the wizard changes, I think it's cool what they are trying to do with lore's and am personally enjoying having other options than fire.

Off topic: Rogue review needed, it's a shame to see one of the most unique systems (lock smithing) GS has to offer (IMO) being diminished by town locksmiths.

Plat has portals to all the towns. Makes getting around a breeze.

[SonoftheNorth]

Off topic: Rogue review needed, it's a shame to see one of the most unique systems (lock smithing) GS has to offer (IMO) being diminished by town locksmiths.


Increase town locksmith prices by 300%! Rogues inherit the earth.

[Orthin]

Has to be more, they just did a festival specifically for RR in plat. Considering RR's population in prime is maybe 5 people...there must be at least that many in Plat, doesn't there?


On topic: Doesn't diminish the value of enchanting at all. Of course I have had zero complaints about any of the wizard changes, I think it's cool what they are trying to do with lore's and am personally enjoying having other options than fire.

Off topic: Rogue review needed, it's a shame to see one of the most unique systems (lock smithing) GS has to offer (IMO) being diminished by town locksmiths.

The town locksmiths aren't the issue population is. I could sit in east tower and get okay traffic but any other town I had to advertise my butt off or live at the smithing spot and catch crumbs. Townsmiths aren't new just the level of people needing smiths and the smiths themselves are staggered. It's the same issue with guild reps years ago it was perfectly common to have several folks sitting by the taskmaster and now if you even see someone at the guild it's amazing (short of guild night). Unless they made the town smith cost 3x as much people won't not go and if they did do that any town that isn't WL or TV will be hamstrung due to population fluctuations.

[Neovik1]

The town locksmiths aren't the issue population is. I could sit in east tower and get okay traffic but any other town I had to advertise my butt off or live at the smithing spot and catch crumbs. Townsmiths aren't new just the level of people needing smiths and the smiths themselves are staggered. It's the same issue with guild reps years ago it was perfectly common to have several folks sitting by the taskmaster and now if you even see someone at the guild it's amazing (short of guild night). Unless they made the town smith cost 3x as much people won't not go and if they did do that any town that isn't WL or TV will be hamstrung due to population fluctuations.

The town smith are also instant. With a master locksmith you still have to wait around 20-70 seconds per box depending on the boxes situation (assuming the picker is successful). If the picker has picking bracers and doesn't use calipers they could get that time down to 6 seconds if there is no trap and they don't care about experience. If there is a trap, you just added 5 seconds to the process.

Town picker is also convenient because it works with sloot. Why use a picker?

8-10 second Caliper RT on top of detect RT, disarm RT is a shot in the foot. Like more RT was needed?

[SonoftheNorth]

I think the answer to this problem is rogues should get permanent poisons like sorcerer's ensorcell.

[Viekn]

The town smith are also instant. With a master locksmith you still have to wait around 20-70 seconds per box depending on the boxes situation (assuming the picker is successful). If the picker has picking bracers and doesn't use calipers they could get that time down to 6 seconds if there is no trap and they don't care about experience. If there is a trap, you just added 5 seconds to the process.

Town picker is also convenient because it works with sloot. Why use a picker?

8-10 second Caliper RT on top of detect RT, disarm RT is a shot in the foot. Like more RT was needed?

I get nostalgic for wanting to make my own rogue and pick my own boxes and those of others, but honestly, I'd just much rather pay the smith and get that shit over with. I think Simu should give up on promoting rogues as the main way to open most boxes and decrease the cost at the town smith. Given the population, it's really not the XP source it was that a rogue could rely on to level.

However, I would think about introducing a different type of lock that only rogues can open. It would be a way to make them more specialized. You could increase the XP gained from opening this type of box to be more on par with the XP a cleric gains from raising a dead body. The boxes with these locks wouldn't be so pervasive that a rogue could rely on them to consistently level, but would definitely be worth their time and effort. I would think also that a rogue could expect higher tips from opening these boxes as they would be the only ones that could. Simu would also have to consider these variables and probably stock those boxes with a bit more treasure to make it worth it, even if it was just more silvers in the box.

[beldannon5]

I think rogues should get enchanting certificates for their lockpicks at Duskruin. Oh wait never mind! 37 and a half hours

[chalion]

I think rogues should get enchanting certificates for their lockpicks at Duskruin. Oh wait never mind! 37 and a half hours

But they have to trade in a scarab.

[SonoftheNorth]

But they have to trade in a scarab.

Who does the scarab belong to????

[Neovik1]

I get nostalgic for wanting to make my own rogue and pick my own boxes and those of others, but honestly, I'd just much rather pay the smith and get that shit over with. I think Simu should give up on promoting rogues as the main way to open most boxes and decrease the cost at the town smith. Given the population, it's really not the XP source it was that a rogue could rely on to level.

However, I would think about introducing a different type of lock that only rogues can open. It would be a way to make them more specialized. You could increase the XP gained from opening this type of box to be more on par with the XP a cleric gains from raising a dead body. The boxes with these locks wouldn't be so pervasive that a rogue could rely on them to consistently level, but would definitely be worth their time and effort. I would think also that a rogue could expect higher tips from opening these boxes as they would be the only ones that could. Simu would also have to consider these variables and probably stock those boxes with a bit more treasure to make it worth it, even if it was just more silvers in the box.

i think they already did that with Plinite. I've not personally handled plinite before but I have a general idea how it works. Not sure if you can use magic to extract plinite but I'm assuming not since it's volatile and needs to be extracted with a pick.

A good start would be to allow Rogues to get saturated. At least there is a nice little perk some where.

[Neovik1]

Who does the scarab belong to????

The rogue! Although I use to leave it up to the customer when I actually picked and enjoyed it. 25 percent of the people would take it even if you didn't accept tips.

[chalion]

Who does the scarab belong to????

Simutronics, after the rogue hands it in for their free enchanting lockpick.

[Tenlaar]

Who does the scarab belong to????

The owner of the box it came from, clearly. Who could even argue that?

[LivderaDeralleur]

Re: Rogues and Boxes

Someone put forth an idea on the officials several months back, I think, that I rather liked. It was kind of a queue system. You go to a room, hand off your locked boxes one by one - they get entered in a virtual queue. A PC Rogue can come by at their leisure and pull boxes from the queue within their skill range, pick them (the boxes probably would be pulled into a 'finished' queue once opened) and the original player can come back to pick them up later. It's an interesting concept, to be sure, though would have to figure out what to do if you blow up someone's box - probably have to pay a fine that gets paid to the player that owns the box, perhaps. It'd also open up an avenue for box-opening bounties or something, as well.

I have a pocket Rogue I use to simply open my boxes instead of using the town locksmith, though I do admit it is a bit of a slog to transfer all the boxes over, disarm/pick them all and go through all of them. I think the last 9 levels he's gotten are purely from exp from picking boxes, though, as I don't really hunt him.

Either way, I agree it's a bit of a sham that the town locksmith can disarm/pick something so fast when a PC locksmith has so much RT to go through.

[Wrathbringer]

Well, it's official; Everyone agrees that fluers is retarded by a margin of 62 - 5.

[Orthin]

Well, it's official; Everyone agrees that fluers is retarded by a margin of 62 - 5.

So fleurs voted 5 times

[Jhynnifer]

Re: Rogues and Boxes

Someone put forth an idea on the officials several months back, I think, that I rather liked. It was kind of a queue system. You go to a room, hand off your locked boxes one by one - they get entered in a virtual queue. A PC Rogue can come by at their leisure and pull boxes from the queue within their skill range, pick them (the boxes probably would be pulled into a 'finished' queue once opened) and the original player can come back to pick them up later. It's an interesting concept, to be sure, though would have to figure out what to do if you blow up someone's box - probably have to pay a fine that gets paid to the player that owns the box, perhaps. It'd also open up an avenue for box-opening bounties or something, as well.

I have a pocket Rogue I use to simply open my boxes instead of using the town locksmith, though I do admit it is a bit of a slog to transfer all the boxes over, disarm/pick them all and go through all of them. I think the last 9 levels he's gotten are purely from exp from picking boxes, though, as I don't really hunt him.

Either way, I agree it's a bit of a sham that the town locksmith can disarm/pick something so fast when a PC locksmith has so much RT to go through.

Clearly the answer here is NPC bard, NPC Sorc and NPC wizard so we can have items sung to, ensorcelled and enchanted without needing other people! It's the only fair way!

As far as scarabs go, I always think they belong to the rogue, but I offer them anyway then just make a mental note for the next time when I leave them undisarmed on the floor if I'm feeling ornery.

[Viekn]

Clearly the answer here is NPC bard, NPC Sorc and NPC wizard so we can have items sung to, ensorcelled and enchanted without needing other people! It's the only fair way!

I think that's a bit dramatic. It's not like bards and rogues make a significant amount of silvers from their services, while wizards and sorcs do. I actually agree with having an NPC bard. Most bards don't become bards to loresing to other people's items. And with the ever increasing amount of enhancive items in the game and the overall lower population meaning a lower prevalence of bards, I absolutely think there should be an NPC bard.

[TheBastardOfStark]

...when I leave them undisarmed on the floor if I'm feeling ornery.
This is my usual treatment, leave em live on the floor and if the box owner is feeling lucky....lol

[Yulis]

For now, it's being removed from the table at this event. It will continued to be discussed on how we want to address it in other areas.

I've made a post on the official forums about 925 and how things may progress forward, but my great dislike of how it's currently established with the recent update that allows basic flaring items to be enchanted.

A huge pain in the ass.

The extra pre-temper potions needed....
Restricted by a minimum lore threshold....
Pre-temper potions only available through alchemy....
Alchemy ingredients are very rare and are now high priced items that throws a large cost increase to enchanting basic flaring items....

I listed more in the official post, but there are also other things with enchanting that are annoying how they were implemented that should be revisited.
On top of it all, items are still out of use due to the lengthy time it takes to enchant items 4x or higher. My current 4x project, I'm getting hit with 3-4 day tempers - 12 to 16 days the item is lockered. This is irritating and it has been irritating since this change was made to the spell all those years ago. It sucks having the item lockered for so long. Even worse when 7x enchants are having 14-16 day tempers (98 to 112 days - that 3-4 months the item sits doing nothing and can't be used...WTF!).

I'm all for enchanting to being updated to allow more types of items to be enchanted (this would be awesome!), but in my opinion the spell needs to be re-written to simplify it. Don't just tack on more pre-temper potions that are harder than hell to come by and cost tons of silver or require tons of time just to acquire them.

[Jhynnifer]

I think that's a bit dramatic. It's not like bards and rogues make a significant amount of silvers from their services, while wizards and sorcs do. I actually agree with having an NPC bard. Most bards don't become bards to loresing to other people's items. And with the ever increasing amount of enhancive items in the game and the overall lower population meaning a lower prevalence of bards, I absolutely think there should be an NPC bard.

The comment was very tongue-in-cheek. I'd honestly prefer there were no automated services (healers, clerics, locksmith, etc).

[SonoftheNorth]

They could massively reduce lockpicking skill training or even better make it a guild skill instead since it basically is with LM so you don't have to waste points.

[Jhynnifer]

They could massively reduce lockpicking skill training or even better make it a guild skill instead since it basically is with LM so you don't have to waste points.

Lockpicking training only really gets pricey when you 3x and with trap/lock lore you don't really need to be 3x. I'm 2.25x with those lores and I -rarely- have issues with even the hardest SoS boxes.

[Taernath]

The comment was very tongue-in-cheek. I'd honestly prefer there were no automated services (healers, clerics, locksmith, etc).

That would just make multi-accounting close to mandatory in certain towns.

[SonoftheNorth]

2.25x at cap is a ton of training points.

[Gelston]

That would just make multi-accounting close to mandatory in certain towns.

So, win-win for Simu right?

[Neveragain]

Increase town locksmith prices by 300%! Rogues inherit the earth.

I see no issue with this.

[Neovik1]

Lockpicking training only really gets pricey when you 3x and with trap/lock lore you don't really need to be 3x. I'm 2.25x with those lores and I -rarely- have issues with even the hardest SoS boxes.

For scatter boxes the traps are usually at the highest end a trap can be. 2.25x is risky for something going awry. Next thing you know you melted a pick or blew up yourself and others. Being a picker has a huge risk in so many ways. Picks get bent and lose their modifier gradually... just so much going against it where the return may not be there... break a Vaalin pick and you have to shell out 100k for another if you care about having the best quality. Unless you wait for that rare merchant that can restore a pick to it's original state.

I have no risk of losing a pick by popping, wedging or bashing. There is an upkeep to being an effective locksmith that doesn't give much of a return on that investment if your rogue is your main.

[SonoftheNorth]

Someone should make a lockpicking thread probably since this one is about enchanting.

[Neovik1]

Someone should make a lockpicking thread probably since this one is about enchanting.

Then it would get ignored like it has over the years. The only way to get attention is to do it when their are wizard tears. :)

[Neveragain]

For scatter boxes the traps are usually at the highest end a trap can be. 2.25x is risky for something going awry. Next thing you know you melted a pick or blew up yourself and others. Being a picker has a huge risk in so many ways. Picks get bent and lose their modifier gradually... just so much going against it where the return may not be there... break a Vaalin pick and you have to shell out 100k for another if you care about having the best quality. Unless you wait for that rare merchant that can restore a pick to it's original state.

I have no risk of losing a pick by popping, wedging or bashing. There is an upkeep to being an effective locksmith that doesn't give much of a return on that investment if your rogue is your main.

Capped with my smithing skills at 2.5x I would still find boxes in OTF that I couldn't see the traps.

There's really no point in playing a rogue without the smithing, you're pretty much a gimped ranger or warrior at this point.

[Neovik1]

Capped with my smithing skills at 2.5x I would still find boxes in OTF that I couldn't see the traps.

There's really no point in playing a rogue without the smithing, you're pretty much a gimped ranger or warrior at this point.

But...but... you can 3x hiding and perception!

[Mogonis]

Warriors have little use to society, and I demand that we join the party of charging millions to hunt.

[Roblar]

Capped with my smithing skills at 2.5x I would still find boxes in OTF that I couldn't see the traps.

I'm 2x disarm and 2x perception at cap (as a warrior) and do not miss seeing traps from anywhere (mostly Scatter). Am I just super lucky or did you mean traps you can't disarm (as opposed to just see)?

[Neovik1]

Warriors have little use to society, and I demand that we join the party of charging millions to hunt.

Warriors should be able to add padding to armor.

[Neovik1]

I'm 2x disarm and 2x perception at cap (as a warrior) and do not miss seeing traps from anywhere. Am I just super lucky or did you mean traps you can't disarm (as opposed to just see)?

Yeah I don't think I ever actually missed seeing a trap at 2x disarm and perception. At 290 ranks of perception and no disarm skill I miss traps all the time.

[Mogonis]

Warriors should be able to add padding to armor.
Agreed. We could add temporary padding up to very heavy or permanent padding up to somewhat. We could also sharpen weapons to add to AvD and do something with armor to lower AvD against weapons. Just ideas.

Maybe even let us do minor forge work to increase partial enchant bonuses to the nearest multiple of 5. You have any idea how many millions we could charge to put everyone's OCD at ease!?!?!?!11

[Gelston]

Agreed. We could add temporary padding up to very heavy or permanent padding up to somewhat. We could also sharpen weapons to add to AvD and do something with armor to lower AvD against weapons. Just ideas.

Maybe even let us do minor forge work to increase partial enchant bonuses to the nearest multiple of 5. You have any idea how many millions we could charge to put everyone's OCD at ease!?!?!?!11

Temp would likely be the way to do it, maybe up to heavy or perhaps permanent up to a small amount, with higher.. Fittings or whatever being raffled/auctioned that makes higher end permanent padding.

[Roblar]

I like those ideas, reasonable.

At first, I was thinking no to padding but those restrictions are ok for overall balance. Wouldn't want to have every armor in game eventually having padding but somewhat is low enough to not matter much and give us a bone, temporary is fine though maybe up to HDP like the adventurer's guild.

I especially like AvD buffs, that go along nicely with ensorcells' use of CvA, for new areas of improvement that don't intersect with merchant services.

Also for the buff to forging and those damn ugly partial enchants (OCDer) +1

[Neveragain]

I'm 2x disarm and 2x perception at cap (as a warrior) and do not miss seeing traps from anywhere (mostly Scatter). Am I just super lucky or did you mean traps you can't disarm (as opposed to just see)?

Hard to say what I'm saying...maybe I was seeing them and couldn't disarm them (think that may have been it) it's been over 2 years ago.

[Neveragain]

But...but... you can 3x hiding and perception!

I know, Rogues should have been given the option for class change when GS4 was released.

But hey, being able to say you're a rogue has it's perks.

[Ghost]

Second the temp stuff as well. Up to superb. I also would like to see 'armor and weapon crumblies', which are merchant bought gear with some nice high tier additions but will eventually crumble or permanently break after some usage.

[Neveragain]

Yeah I don't think I ever actually missed seeing a trap at 2x disarm and perception. At 290 ranks of perception and no disarm skill I miss traps all the time.

Please tell me this has resulted in the death of Kirael on many occasions. (don't mistake this for a disliking of Kirael, very much the opposite)

[Jhynnifer]

For scatter boxes the traps are usually at the highest end a trap can be. 2.25x is risky for something going awry. Next thing you know you melted a pick or blew up yourself and others. Being a picker has a huge risk in so many ways. Picks get bent and lose their modifier gradually... just so much going against it where the return may not be there... break a Vaalin pick and you have to shell out 100k for another if you care about having the best quality. Unless you wait for that rare merchant that can restore a pick to it's original state.

I have no risk of losing a pick by popping, wedging or bashing. There is an upkeep to being an effective locksmith that doesn't give much of a return on that investment if your rogue is your main.

I have not run into an issue with picking boxes from the scatter.

Most difficult lock picked: -1350
Most difficult trap disarmed: -480

I'm also very careful about how I pick. I use a self-repairing lockpick, enchancives and one of those refilling trap vials. It's not ideal, but there's a lot more things I need post cap before considering pushing to 2.5 or 3x

[Neovik1]

Please tell me this has resulted in the death of Kirael on many occasions. (don't mistake this for a disliking of Kirael, very much the opposite)

Hahah! I have a fully unlocked picking bracer so she's safe for now! >:). If I can't see it I just run to the town smith and become part of the problem.

When I was at 3x though... she may have had some close calls with me and scale traps.

[Neovik1]

I have not run into an issue with picking boxes from the scatter.

Most difficult lock picked: -1350
Most difficult trap disarmed: -480

I'm also very careful about how I pick. I use a self-repairing lockpick, enchancives and one of those refilling trap vials. It's not ideal, but there's a lot more things I need post cap before considering pushing to 2.5 or 3x

Yeah when I was at 3x I also had a max set of picking enhancives that I carried around (less things to carry now). Since there are still locks you just can't pick without them. Never had self repairing picks though. It's when you get those rare 1400 and up boxes where enhancives come in handy.

I know Rlen was picking -1500 boxes at one point... but that was lich landing and extremely costly for him breaking picks to get those record locks...

[Wrathbringer]

Temp would likely be the way to do it, maybe up to heavy or perhaps permanent up to a small amount, with higher.. Fittings or whatever being raffled/auctioned that makes higher end permanent padding.

Temp sucks.

[Gelston]

Temp sucks.

You suck.

[Neveragain]

Hahah! I have a fully unlocked picking bracer so she's safe for now! >:). If I can't see it I just run to the town smith and become part of the problem.

When I was at 3x though... she may have had some close calls with me and scale traps.

Your love of the halfling leaf has made you soft. ;P

[Neovik1]

Your love of the halfling leaf has made you soft. ;P

It's the fake winterberry ale! Heh...

[Neveragain]

fake winterberry ale!

Trigger warning!

[SonoftheNorth]

Wyrom said on officials-

Due to overwhelming response, and to the nature of how players earn [blood]scrip, the enchanting certificates are going back on sale.

While I do feel strongly about this subject, we also realize people have made a sizable investment to save up for the enchanting.

Please note, moving forward, items in the scrip shop, most notably the certificates, are not guaranteed from run to run. We aim to move away from certificates in future runs and to new forms of how we deliver services, but priorities can and do change often.

A personal thank you to GameMasters Coase, Estild, and Finros for being open minded to discussing these topics to exhaustion each night.

[beldannon5]

Three cheers for Wyrom. Hip Hip Hooray. Hip Hip Hooray. Hip Hip Hooray

[Gelston]

Three cheers for Wyrom. Hip Hip Hooray. Hip Hip Hooray. Hip Hip Hooray

Prepare for more Fleurs!

[SonoftheNorth]

Prepare for more Fleurs!

Fuck it it's awesome he listened to players.

[Gelston]

Fuck it it's awesome he listened to players.

It is definitely a surprise. Most games, when the producer decides on something he slams his fingers in his ears and yells "nanananananananana".

[Orthin]

Man if only two of these certs sell he is going to burn the mother effer to the ground.

[beldannon5]

I will probably buy one of the under 7x ones. However I sold the 25k I had already so will have to arena a bunch first to get the bs for it depending on how high it goes though.

[Ghost]

doesn't fleurs not get that there are professions out there that have zero ways to make silvers. Like monks and paladins, and those guys still take the same bullshit amount of exp to level like wizzies and sorcs. holy shit what a doofus.

[Fallen]

That's the right way to do it. Cancel it for the next run if you must, but not right before the current one. They've had to walk back a few changes similar to this scenario (changes right before an event).

[Androidpk]

doesn't fleurs not get that there are professions out there that have zero ways to make silvers. Like monks and paladins, and those guys still take the same bullshit amount of exp to level like wizzies and sorcs. holy shit what a doofus.

Nope, fleurs only cares about fleurs and her army of alts.

[Whirlin]

Alright, time to chime in.

On the hypothetical level, there is absolutely 0 way to offer a service that is able to be executed by players and not have it impact your market. There's bound to be SOME overlap, whether it be due to derpy players, etc, that would otherwise pay to have a wizard enchant an object. Furthermore, Wyrom did confirm that a 8x enchant on a vanilla item was purchased, so there's documented evidence that it has occurred. It's logistically impossible for two people to offer the same service, and not state that they can impact eachother. While there has been an argument that wizards can't enchant X items, these certs aren't isolated to only non-wizard enchantable items, thus introducing any element of potential overlap.

By offering a service such as this, it's also creating it's own self-fulfilling prophecy of necessity. Many veterans are aware of the old adage of "Get your items enchanted first, before adding padding/weighting/flares/extra stuff". This became mantra when dealing with premium point costs, but became general project piece guidance. However, by offering enchanting certs, they'll be less likely to follow this recommendation. If items had more of a hard and fast 'locked' once they got these services added onto an item, the incentive and market for Wizard enchanting would be higher as more people would be aiming to enchant their items fully prior to adding these services.


Furthermore, there is a concern regarding the 8/9/10x enchanting potions offered in Duskruin. Most people are only working on a single project piece at a time, so offering 40 pours (while seeming novel), prices them extraordinarily awkwardly... especially when you consider the cost versus what you can earn as an individual throughout the event, and that it yields 5 casts out of the 8x versus 4 casts out of the 9/10... It effectively restricts purchasing to just wizards, whereas if there was a flat rate, single-enchant potion available, it would be something that non-wizards could buy, and grant to the enchanting wizard in addition tot he payment. Having additional price scaling with these potions further compiles additional penalties against the wizards, who are already impacted by multiple people doing the same level of major projects. So not only will we get charged more, but it will take more time to complete.

[Fallen]

By offering a service such as this, it's also creating it's own self-fulfilling prophecy of necessity. Many veterans are aware of the old adage of "Get your items enchanted first, before adding padding/weighting/flares/extra stuff". This became mantra when dealing with premium point costs, but became general project piece guidance. However, by offering enchanting certs, they'll be less likely to follow this recommendation. If items had more of a hard and fast 'locked' once they got these services added onto an item, the incentive and market for Wizard enchanting would be higher as more people would be aiming to enchant their items fully prior to adding these services.
This argument assumes players are electing to receive services on their gear which makes them unenchantable by players, when often it is the case that they come from the hopper/auction/simu unable to be enchanted. Again, the solution to the problem isn't to restrict the ability to win/buy enchanting for otherwise unenchantable gear, but instead make player enchant better able to handle specialized gear.

I don't know whos fault it is that player enchanting is in the state it is in currently, but it certainly isn't the player base. I'd guess it's due to a combination of the convoluted nature of code for gemstone, coupled with a lack of GM resources and the ever present worry of power creep. I'm somewhat out of the loop, but it doesn't seem that Enchant is going to get further updates to allow more types of gear to be enchanted than what was already promised/implemented by the ELR. If that's the case, what other recourse to players have than to chase GM enchanting if they wish to improve their gear that already has services on it which restrict player enchanting?

[Maerit]

I don't know whos fault it is that player enchanting is in the state it is in currently, but it certainly isn't the player base. [/COLOR]

It's definitely game balance because the idea of adding more attack strength to weapons (less so for DS) with "relative ease" was deemed too powerful, and the game is balanced around general 4x equipment. Anything more than 4x is considered a "luxury item" (despite the frequency that these items are being introduced into the game), and would require a considerable investment to obtain in either time or expense.

[Fallen]

It's definitely game balance because the idea of adding more attack strength to weapons (less so for DS) with "relative ease" was deemed too powerful, and the game is balanced around general 4x equipment. Anything more than 4x is considered a "luxury item" (despite the frequency that these items are being introduced into the game), and would require a considerable investment to obtain in either time or expense.

I'd be curious to hear what the thoughts are in terms of balance when designing capped and post-capped hunting grounds. Are they still only balancing around 4x gear? I somehow doubt that.

I'd also be curious to hear what the standard loadout of a near/capped/post capped hunter is in this day and age. Something tells me it is higher than 4x enchantments. I'd also be willing to bet as item loss continues to be a diminished threat (which I believe Wyrom said is where we are moving towards), the average enchant/etc level of equipment will continue to rise as well.

[chalion]

The circle goes like this:
We can't add too many powerful weapons because that introduces power creep, we have to gate abilities to generate those with tedious or rare mechanics, demand for those services goes up such that when its offered its always a high value thing, players either stick around to eventually get something or they wander off to something else for immediate gratification, they won't introduce item lose mechanics because player's don't want to lose their items because the ability to replace them is nigh impossible, because... right back to the top.

Couple extra points to consider - a lot of these services are either mechanically (the scripting language or code is just that terrible?) hard to do, requires time and effort (effectively volunteer staff?) or related to balance and scarcity to keep interest in them so that factors into what is available. There appears to be a push towards a lot of automation because of one of the reasons above and also it would allow for more services and more income generation so both sides win.

So back to the immediate issue, you either go whole hog and have item loss/breakage/wear down and allow amazing items to be more player generated with effort (Eve:Online is a good example of this type of player driven economy and item creation/destruction) or you have crazy power creep and items being invalidated or otherwise made obsolete with each new release of hunting grounds etc (pretty much every other MMO). We are in some sort of luke warm mixture that is heavily leaning towards the power creep model but its a slow creep.

How does this impact enchanting chits? Well, as its been pointed out, theres just too many things wizard's still can't enchant. So this is the only outlet that people can get what they want, more power on the stuff that they can't go to a player to do for them.

[Gelston]

I honestly think it is funny that people think balance actually exists in this game anymore. Maybe at the lower levels.

[Viekn]

Question: Can a capped player get along just fine with a 4x or 5x flaring weapon or a 4x or 5x crit weighted weapon, etc? If so, would dropping the max TOTAL enchant level to 8x (so no more getting weapons to 10x) resolve some of these issues? I think if you do that or something else similar where you're not driving people to have to go so far with needing special GM/merchant services to take a weapon further, you'd help the situation. Once you do that, let wizards enchant flaring items or somewhat crit weighted items without excess tedious extra steps. It seems like that would decrease the power creep and push it more towards a player based item economy. And I'm assuming with the limited development time and resources available, Simu would rather the game go that way instead of having to develop new critters, new hunting grounds, new critter abilities in order to accommodate the power creep.

[Methais]

It does bother me that Fleurs has been able to effectively badger the community into supporting ridiculous changes for the sake of "protecting wizard abilities".


This one is beyond anything to get changed. This is something we're working toward in general. There are just some more updates in general to come.

Thanks Fleurs!

[Wrathbringer]

Thanks Fleurs!

If I ever hit the lottery, I'm buying Simu just so I can cancel all her accounts.

[Mogonis]

If I ever hit the lottery, I'm buying Simu just so I can cancel all her accounts.
Impossible. She's basically Lawnmower Man. She's one with the game now.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/92/71/d6/9271d6d0a9fb7cf9ff4aa92a177aff63.jpg

[Mogonis]

http://oi64.tinypic.com/14o0vw2.jpg

[Wyrom]

Just a few clarification points.

These decisions aren't easy ones, but they aren't ones we make just because we wanted to. However, 25 years of offering something is going to be a tough pill to swallow when we remove it. So when making the decision, we weighed it on the fact that there was a lack of sales on top of wanting to try to do something for the greater good of the game.

When we have people who are saying they've already invested and saved for a major enchant certificate, it puts us in a position of not wanting anyone stuck. To me, that doesn't make much sense to why someone would hold onto 100,000 bloodscrip when we've mentioned we may be retiring the scrip shop's offerings, but it's still not a good position to be in if you did that.

There wasn't just one player who wanted enchant removed from the offerings. And no, I'm not even looking at the poll results here. We've had player feedback on the issue last run and this run. I doubt any one of them would speak up about it given how they would also be targeted and ridiculed.

I truly hope everyone who argued for them to return because they were going to buy one gets one. And yes, I'll be closely monitoring sales like every run.

[Astray]

Everyone better buy 30 or the lines of coke will have gone to waste during "negotiations".

[Fiend394]

To me, that doesn't make much sense to why someone would hold onto 100,000 bloodscrip when we've mentioned we may be retiring the scrip shop's offerings, but it's still not a good position to be in if you did that.



It seems a little fucked to say "You shouldn't trust that we will give everyone a chance to tie up any loose ends." Most games would take into account the needs of both sides, proactively solving the problem, instead of being reactive to a problem and coming up with a solution that "helps" ( I use that word dubiously ) one side and completely fucks the other side.

You should have taken into account that someone holding onto 100,000 bloodscrip is a player you probably want to stick around and not stick it to them.

[Whirlin]

If I ever hit the lottery, I'm buying Simu just so I can cancel all her accounts.

*Stillfront Group

[Gelston]

*Stillfront Group

Both.

[Wrathbringer]

We've had player feedback on the issue last run and this run. I doubt any one of them would speak up about it given how they would also rightfully be targeted and ridiculed.

fixed

[Wyrom]

It seems a little fucked to say "You shouldn't trust that we will give everyone a chance to tie up any loose ends." Most games would take into account the needs of both sides, proactively solving the problem, instead of being reactive to a problem and coming up with a solution that "helps" ( I use that word dubiously ) one side and completely fucks the other side.

You should have taken into account that someone holding onto 100,000 bloodscrip is a player you probably want to stick around and not stick it to them.

Not entirely. We also look at what bloodscrip are left out there. We know exacts on what is generated and ballparks on what was spent (some people lose some too). We know how many people are sitting on a lot.

We're not sticking it to anyone.

[Methais]

instead of the garbage like taco.

Reported.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/20141230/5155079/we-ve-got-one-o.gif

[Ceyrin]

This thread has been a roller-coaster of emotions.

[Whirlin]

Reported.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/20141230/5155079/we-ve-got-one-o.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/sJySRnLdaoOUE/giphy.gif

[Velfi]

This thread has been a roller-coaster of emotions.

I'm disgusted that 20 pages in and no attention has been on the "precendent".

[Roblar]

lol

[Gelston]

I'm disgusted that 20 pages in and no attention has been on the "precendent".

I find you shallow and pedantic.