Kroderine or Adamantine - Not UAC appropriate?

[Maerit]

Just pooling the general PC community to see if there's anyone that can provide some mechanical or in-game reason why Kroderine or Adamantine shouldn't be allowed on Gloves / Boots for UAC.

Zelnorn, I guess I understand. Sadly the fact that it adds +DS along with +AS makes wearing a zelnorn glove or boot like putting on a piece of DB equipment.

For Kroderine or Adamantine, it doesn't seem like there's any specific mechanical advantage, right? In fact, it would be much harder to parry with Adamantine gloves because you would have to have Brace (1214) to parry without a weapon, therefore making the flare less accessible in general.

Personally, I would love a pair of Kroderine gauntlets. For UAC, that would be a lot of fun!

[Ghost]

Just pooling the general PC community to see if there's anyone that can provide some mechanical or in-game reason why Kroderine or Adamantine shouldn't be allowed on Gloves / Boots for UAC.

Zelnorn, I guess I understand. Sadly the fact that it adds +DS along with +AS makes wearing a zelnorn glove or boot like putting on a piece of DB equipment.

For Kroderine or Adamantine, it doesn't seem like there's any specific mechanical advantage, right? In fact, it would be much harder to parry with Adamantine gloves because you would have to have Brace (1214) to parry without a weapon, therefore making the flare less accessible in general.

Personally, I would love a pair of Kroderine gauntlets. For UAC, that would be a lot of fun!

Love the concept myself and support it but Simu for one reason or another don't like Monks or UAC because -- Racist!

[rolfard]

You want those metals for UAC, have them craft you one of them metals into a UAC compatible item, such as a knuckleblade OR have them make a fist-scythe that you can 'ambush/attack' with but not use for UAC.

[Maerit]

You want those metals for UAC, have them craft you one of them metals into a UAC compatible item, such as a knuckleblade OR have them make a fist-scythe that you can 'ambush/attack' with but not use for UAC.

There are significant draw-backs to using UAC weapons in hand. Specifically the reduction to MM that comes with that combat style. The GM who designed UAC even said that having weapons for UAC was a design flaw and undesirable.

[Gelston]

There are significant draw-backs to using UAC weapons in hand. Specifically the reduction to MM that comes with that combat style. The GM who designed UAC even said that having weapons for UAC was a design flaw and undesirable.

Heh, what? I remember testing it and don't recall him saying that. GIVE ME THE QUOTE

[time4fun]

Yeah, I think what rolfard is saying here makes sense.

It's UNARMED combat. You're wearing boots and gloves (or nothing). Adamantine is incredibly heavy- it's hard to imagine that jiving with footwraps. And it's hard to imagine adamantine studs having adamantine properties. Same with kroderine.

I think that's ultimately the trade-off here. UAC means you don't need real weapons to be effective, but it also means you don't get the benefit of fancy metals.

[Viekn]

From the straight mechanical info on those two metals provided by the wiki, it doesn't seem like there should be an exception for UAC gear.

[rolfard]

out of zelnorn, adamantine, and kroderine, i would really *love* to see kroderine made available for gloves or boots (or just dispel flares in general?) but I don't expect it

[Viekn]

And it's hard to imagine adamantine studs having adamantine properties. Same with kroderine.

I think that's ultimately the trade-off here. UAC means you don't need real weapons to be effective, but it also means you don't get the benefit of fancy metals.

What would be the reasoning behind adamantine studs not having normal adamantine properties?
And by the fancy metals logic, you technically shouldn't be able to use veil iron, rolaren, or any other metal with gloves/boots, but they exist.

Not saying you don't have a point, but if any of your reasoning is correct, Simu needs to add it to some documentation.

Bottom line, if there are already UAC gloves/boots with flares, why should there be a logical reason to restrict the flare type that could be applied to them?

[Ghost]

Yeah, I think what rolfard is saying here makes sense.

It's UNARMED combat. You're wearing boots and gloves (or nothing). Adamantine is incredibly heavy- it's hard to imagine that jiving with footwraps. And it's hard to imagine adamantine studs having adamantine properties. Same with kroderine.

I think that's ultimately the trade-off here. UAC means you don't need real weapons to be effective, but it also means you don't get the benefit of fancy metals.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/iVM-dCKhaL4/maxresdefault.jpg

It's fantasy, most people can't shoot lightning out of their hands either... most.

[Gelston]

Korderine-studded or Adamantine-studded. I think it should be doable from putting the metals into boots/gloves perspectives. I'm not sure what a GM would say that. I can't really think of a reason why not though, unless the UAC code just won't support it for some reason.

[Maerit]

Heh, what? I remember testing it and don't recall him saying that. GIVE ME THE QUOTE

Bah! I ain't got hours, no days, to find a single red post from years ago in the officials!


Yeah, I think what rolfard is saying here makes sense.

It's UNARMED combat. You're wearing boots and gloves (or nothing). Adamantine is incredibly heavy- it's hard to imagine that jiving with footwraps. And it's hard to imagine adamantine studs having adamantine properties. Same with kroderine.

I think that's ultimately the trade-off here. UAC means you don't need real weapons to be effective, but it also means you don't get the benefit of fancy metals.

I hear what you're saying, but this doesn't apply to less rare flaring metals. Gornar, Drakar, Rhimar... etc, are all supplied as in Glove/Boot format that inherit the flaring properties. I can accept an in-game reason. The weight of Adamantine seems like a reasonable attribute to exclude it from being used as UAC gloves / boots, but then in this magical world a warrior can still swing an adamantine battle-axe in 5 seconds, despite the ridiculous added weight.

There seems to be some double standards that are explicitly created for high-end metals when it comes to UAC, and it does make the combat system feel "punished" to some extent.

[Maerit]

Korderine-studded or Adamantine-studded. I think it should be doable from putting the metals into boots/gloves perspectives. I'm not sure what a GM would say that. I can't really think of a reason why not though, unless the UAC code just won't support it for some reason.

Now that is a quote I can find for you - because it was yesterday when I directly asked Wyrom whether we could get a version of UAC gloves / boots for these metals in the high-end shop:


Zelnorn, adamantine, and kroderine aren't compatible with gloves and boots.


Wyrom, PM

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Paid%20Events:%20Adventures,%20Quests,%20and%20Sim uCoins/Duskruin%20Arena/thread/1837174?page=4#


My follow-up inquiry as to why was overlooked due to the deluge of Fleurs whines and subsequent Fleurs heckling.

[rolfard]

the spell Brace (1214) already provides the caster with the benefit of an adamantine weapon in addition to parrying, without the drawbacks of taking the slot from your gloves, correct?

[Gelston]

Bah! I ain't got hours, no days, to find a single red post from years ago in the officials!


I do recall him saying there was a detriment, and of course there is, but nothing so strong as "design flaw". Either way, it is what it is! I usually don't prefer to use weapons with it either.

[Maerit]

the spell Brace (1214) already provides the caster with the benefit of an adamantine weapon in addition to parrying, without the drawbacks of taking the slot from your gloves, correct?

Not precisely. Brace can disarm opponents (25% base), but only really works well with considerable training into Transformation lore, which is a hefty TP cost (unless you're a brawling empath). And it doesn't have any chance to shatter the weapon.

Though, I would be less interested, and probably there would be zero sold, of adamantine UAC gloves / boots as I would be in kroderine gloves / boots. The dispel flares are actually useful for a UAC fighter. Just as useful as they would be for any physical combatant.

[TheBastardOfStark]

I thought there were a few brawling weapons that worked with uac...Why couldn't you make one of them with the metal?

[Gelston]

I thought there were a few brawling weapons that worked with uac...Why couldn't you make one of them with the metal?


There are significant draw-backs to using UAC weapons in hand. Specifically the reduction to MM that comes with that combat style. The GM who designed UAC even said that having weapons for UAC was a design flaw and undesirable.



...

[Orthin]

Yeah, I think what rolfard is saying here makes sense.

It's UNARMED combat. You're wearing boots and gloves (or nothing). Adamantine is incredibly heavy- it's hard to imagine that jiving with footwraps. And it's hard to imagine adamantine studs having adamantine properties. Same with kroderine.

I think that's ultimately the trade-off here. UAC means you don't need real weapons to be effective, but it also means you don't get the benefit of fancy metals.

Steel toed boots, and boxers pad gloves when cheating,

[TheBastardOfStark]

...

Yes I get that it's undesirable, and you have a penelty to MM, you also get a df bonus, and the usage of the metals properties. RP wise razorpaws or a tiger claw is 100% viable on a monk/unarmed fighter. Brass knuckles, steel toed boots, spiked knuckles all come to mind in unarmed combat as reasonable accessories. To limit punches and jabs to being bare fist or gloves isn't reasonable in a kill or be killed world.

[Maerit]

Yes I get that it's undesirable, and you have a penelty to MM, you also get a df bonus, and the usage of the metals properties. RP wise razorpaws or a tiger claw is 100% viable on a monk/unarmed fighter. Brass knuckles, steel toed boots, spiked knuckles all come to mind in unarmed combat as reasonable accessories. To limit punches and jabs to being bare fist or gloves isn't reasonable in a kill or be killed world.

The design of UAC makes using weapons of this nature very poor in general.

For starters - MM is your crit multiplier effectively. By reducing your MM with a weapon in hand, you're impacting your ability to land those critical hits which is what drives the entire UAC combat system. It'd be like taking your HCW weapon down to SWCW and getting some DF in return. Not a good trade-off.

Secondly, you can only use the weapon for jabs/punches (grapple too??), but not kicks. Kicking is pretty potent, so you're losing all the weapon "advantages" when you kick with UAC but still getting a reduced MM at the same time.

My UAC fighter is actually a warmage. Kicks are the primary form of attack for this type of fighting because it deals the most damage, so while I jab and sometimes punch to tier-up, I generally finish my foes with a flurry of kicks. Weapons don't help there.

[Whirlin]

The design of UAC makes using weapons of this nature very poor in general.

For starters - MM is your crit multiplier effectively. By reducing your MM with a weapon in hand, you're impacting your ability to land those critical hits which is what drives the entire UAC combat system. It'd be like taking your HCW weapon down to SWCW and getting some DF in return. Not a good trade-off.

Secondly, you can only use the weapon for jabs/punches (grapple too??), but not kicks. Kicking is pretty potent, so you're losing all the weapon "advantages" when you kick with UAC but still getting a reduced MM at the same time.

My UAC fighter is actually a warmage. Kicks are the primary form of attack for this type of fighting because it deals the most damage, so while I jab and sometimes punch to tier-up, I generally finish my foes with a flurry of kicks. Weapons don't help there.

Your stance is too absolute. There are held UAC weapons that would tip the scales to make wielding the weapon advantageous compared to the MM penalties. Warrior/Paladin bonding, Adamantine/Kroderine UAC held weapons, weighted/flaring/enhancive could all be worth holding depending on their specific properties. Yes, it's an incredibly high threshold given the nature of the MM penalties that other weapon types don't need to overcome, but it's close minded to say that they don't exist!

[Maerit]

Your stance is too absolute. There are held UAC weapons that would tip the scales to make wielding the weapon advantageous compared to the MM penalties. Warrior/Paladin bonding, Adamantine/Kroderine UAC held weapons, weighted/flaring/enhancive could all be worth holding depending on their specific properties. Yes, it's an incredibly high threshold given the nature of the MM penalties that other weapon types don't need to overcome, but it's close minded to say that they don't exist!

Well, I don't think I said that weapons aren't ever worth wielding, but that they are generally a poor option. To quote myself:


very poor in general.

Kroderine UAC weapon would probably not be worth using over bare fists because of the nature of Kroderine. You can't ensorcell it, you can't enchant it, you can't add scripts to it, bless it, or do anything other than gain the dispel flares it comes with. So, you're losing a significant benefit of MM by wielding a hand-held Kroderine UAC weapon, gaining a dispel flare (that's nice, but not THAT nice), and does nothing for UAC kick.

[Donquix]

Your stance is too absolute. There are held UAC weapons that would tip the scales to make wielding the weapon advantageous compared to the MM penalties. Warrior/Paladin bonding, Adamantine/Kroderine UAC held weapons, weighted/flaring/enhancive could all be worth holding depending on their specific properties. Yes, it's an incredibly high threshold given the nature of the MM penalties that other weapon types don't need to overcome, but it's close minded to say that they don't exist!

I would still say all of those things are still inferior to just using good gloves and boots. They might be fun, sure, but it's still a downgrade over just killing the thing. You need an exceptional weapon to make up for the penalty. Warrior bonding alone certainly wouldn't matter, paladin flaring maybe as Nairdin always likes to jack off about (but again, could just you know...kill it in less hits normally. again, if going for pure mechanical advantage, can't put a pricetag on fun.)

With regards to the "did finros actually say that?" (about held weapons being shit by design)
Yes. Yes he did.


With regard to unarmed combat, it is always* better to apply an effect to gloves or boots, rather than a held weapon, whenever you have the choice. Held weapons are meant to be the inferior option, and are mainly allowed because of past statements that they would be allowed. If I were doing it again, I would probably choose to not use them in unarmed combat at all. They're only meant to be beneficial if you have an already-existing held weapon with some sort of superior effect.

https://gswiki.play.net/Unarmed_combat_(saved_posts) (9/15/2013)

There is comparatively shit available for fun uac gear. Further arbitrarily limiting available base metals makes no god damn sense. Adamantine maybe if you want to be all excessively "realistiic" about something. Although it's pretty hilarious to say "it's too heavy for a gauntlet!"...while holding a morningstar made out of it. But no kroderine or zelnorn? Come on. That's just dumb. if it's *by design*, and not just a repercussion of those materials preexisting the UAC system and not having been updated to be compatible.

[Maerit]

There is comparatively shit available for fun uac gear. Further arbitrarily limiting available base metals makes no god damn sense. Adamantine maybe if you want to be all excessively "realistiic" about something. Although it's pretty hilarious to say "it's too heavy for a gauntlet!"...while holding a morningstar made out of it. But no kroderine or zelnorn? Come on. That's just dumb. if it's *by design*, and not just a repercussion of those materials preexisting the UAC system and not having been updated to be compatible.

Zelnorn is restricted for the same reason you can't add defender to UAC gloves or boots. By adding that script to this equipment it creates a DB wearable item that anyone - regardless of combat training - will benefit from. When defender was auctioned at a DR a year or two ago, I asked if we could add defender to UAC gauntlets, and it was said that was not allowed. Then at EG, the winner of the zelnorn weapon (at my urging) asked if they could create zelnorn UAC gear, and it was said no because of basically the same reason for defender being restricted.

However, I can't see a reason to restrict adamantine or kroderine. So far the PC responses have been helpful, but still not pointing out any actual reason why these metals are restricted to held weapons only.

Slightly non-serious question - would it be appropriate to make an Adamantine or Kroderine runestaff?

[Wyrom]

The reason is a lot more simple in that gloves and boots can't be made of a metal. They throw an error. Same thing when robes or double leathers have metal in them. The only two leather armor types that can be made of metal are studded and brig. So at the very core it's prevented. Now you might say, "You sell mithril-toed boots!" No, we sell leather boots with a +5 enchant, with a description of mithril to help players determine the enchant.

Until UCS, weapons and shields needed to be held, armor needs to be worn. That's how our system works. Due to gloves and boots being worn, but also being a weapon, it allows them to always be on. So passive abilities need to be considered when allowing things to work with UCSE. Allowing for worn metals with passive abilities is a game changer. You can't activate the passive adamantine ability via a weapon unless it's in hand. But since it's never in hand, it would have to work like armor. However, armor requires you to get hit for the adamantine ability to kick in, which doesn't really compute to how the weapon version works (on successful parry).

Kroderine has some properties as well to being worn, it reduces your max mana. Again, weapons aren't factored in as being worn here. You could technically have boots with dispel flares, but kroderine is a bit more due to the magic absorbing. Zelnorn, again, doesn't factor into the worn issue with weapons. So you'd basically be getting a forever DB item out of it. Zelnorn weapons are very lackluster because no one really cares about 2x/2x defender weapons. But a worn ability is certainly a lot more appealing when you can just hold a fist-scythe. This is the same reason why Fusion UCSE hasn't surfaced. It's a really tough balancing factor.

Even with this explanation, the first paragraph is the main reason. We also can't make kroderine robes or adamantine double leathers.

[Maerit]

The reason is a lot more simple in that gloves and boots can't be made of a metal. They throw an error. Same thing when robes or double leathers have metal in them. The only two leather armor types that can be made of metal are studded and brig. So at the very core it's prevented. Now you might say, "You sell mithril-toed boots!" No, we sell leather boots with a +5 enchant, with a description of mithril to help players determine the enchant.

Even with this explanation, the first paragraph is the main reason. We also can't make kroderine robes or adamantine double leathers.

I'm contented with the concept of wearing Kroderine means you would have to treat it like wearing a piece of kroderine armor, and adamantite parry doesn't work when using worn equipment because of the mechanics behind parry. Appreciate the clarification.

I will say, though, that gauntlets can be made entirely of metal... So can sabatons (metal foot wear).

An example of where this "metal has permanent effects" rule doesn't really apply is actually sold right there in Bloodriven Village.

- a pair of eonake-studded gauntlets sanctified UAC gloves 2500

Eonake is a metal. It's sanctified. You're now wearing sanctified equipment, but there doesn't seem to be any side-effects for doing this.

Just to be clear, I completely accept your explanation as a mechanical limitation of the metal's script. I would love for a review of these types of scripts as potential candidates for UAC. It does help in understanding why these won't be available for UAC players.

[Donquix]

the "but it's held!" has been a problem forever (see: fusion)

but nothing is done about it

so 95% of UAC users are left with "uh...5x or under with regular flares or <= 7x plain. have fun!"

realm flaring and greater fire flaring (which i have) are the only kind of fun widely available options (and i'd say the greater fire flaring is priced above "widely available" at the 20-25k script or whatever it was base). no fusion, no fun uac specific flares (when there is so much room for flavor there), and the best gloves in the game (gory UD bane SK zealot sets) are exclusively used for the SK last i checked. weeeey.

[Wyrom]

I'm contented with the concept of wearing Kroderine means you would have to treat it like wearing a piece of kroderine armor, and adamantite parry doesn't work when using worn equipment because of the mechanics behind parry. Appreciate the clarification.

I will say, though, that gauntlets can be made entirely of metal... So can sabatons (metal foot wear).

An example of where this "metal has permanent effects" rule doesn't really apply is actually sold right there in Bloodriven Village.

- a pair of eonake-studded gauntlets sanctified UAC gloves 2500

Eonake is a metal. It's sanctified. You're now wearing sanctified equipment, but there doesn't seem to be any side-effects for doing this.

Just to be clear, I completely accept your explanation as a mechanical limitation of the metal's script. I would love for a review of these types of scripts as potential candidates for UAC. It does help in understanding why these won't be available for UAC players.

In the case of those eonake, they are leather holy gloves. They aren't made of metal still. Eonake has no properties. We just apply a rule to them. Adamantine is a coded property. Just want that to be clear.

[Viekn]

In the case of those eonake, they are leather holy gloves. They aren't made of metal still. Eonake has no properties. We just apply a rule to them. Adamantine is a coded property. Just want that to be clear.

So then technically, via the code, you could change an eonake sword to be a steel sword and it would still be sanctified, correct? Simu just has the general rule of not changing base materials.

[Hymore246]

Kroderine has some properties as well to being worn, it reduces your max mana. Again, weapons aren't factored in as being worn here. You could technically have boots with dispel flares, but kroderine is a bit more due to the magic absorbing. Zelnorn, again, doesn't factor into the worn issue with weapons. So you'd basically be getting a forever DB item out of it. Zelnorn weapons are very lackluster because no one really cares about 2x/2x defender weapons. But a worn ability is certainly a lot more appealing when you can just hold a fist-scythe. This is the same reason why Fusion UCSE hasn't surfaced. It's a really tough balancing factor.

I love UAC but this is the part that always gets me down. There are a lot of awesome scripts that just flat out cannot work with worn UAC items due to it either not making sense (splitting, returning) or being too powerful (immolation, blink). There just isn't a lot to look forward to improvement-wise because so many things are not allowed. Makes me wish the Bazzelwyn Wand Gloves script was allowed on UAC gloves just to have something cool on my gloves. But sadly, the script isn't allowed on "functional gear". That doesn't stop people from asking him every EG if he could transfer the script to UAC gloves though.

I'm still crossing my fingers for some high end magical leather/cloth to be introduced just for worn UAC gloves and boots. Heck, we need high end wood for bows and crossbows too!

[Ghost]

The reason is a lot more simple in that gloves and boots can't be made of a metal. They throw an error. Same thing when robes or double leathers have metal in them. The only two leather armor types that can be made of metal are studded and brig. So at the very core it's prevented. Now you might say, "You sell mithril-toed boots!" No, we sell leather boots with a +5 enchant, with a description of mithril to help players determine the enchant.

Until UCS, weapons and shields needed to be held, armor needs to be worn. That's how our system works. Due to gloves and boots being worn, but also being a weapon, it allows them to always be on. So passive abilities need to be considered when allowing things to work with UCSE. Allowing for worn metals with passive abilities is a game changer. You can't activate the passive adamantine ability via a weapon unless it's in hand. But since it's never in hand, it would have to work like armor. However, armor requires you to get hit for the adamantine ability to kick in, which doesn't really compute to how the weapon version works (on successful parry).

Kroderine has some properties as well to being worn, it reduces your max mana. Again, weapons aren't factored in as being worn here. You could technically have boots with dispel flares, but kroderine is a bit more due to the magic absorbing. Zelnorn, again, doesn't factor into the worn issue with weapons. So you'd basically be getting a forever DB item out of it. Zelnorn weapons are very lackluster because no one really cares about 2x/2x defender weapons. But a worn ability is certainly a lot more appealing when you can just hold a fist-scythe. This is the same reason why Fusion UCSE hasn't surfaced. It's a really tough balancing factor.

Even with this explanation, the first paragraph is the main reason. We also can't make kroderine robes or adamantine double leathers.

Good honest explanation. Thumbs up.

[neimanz1]

Good honest explanation. Thumbs up.

he probably made it up on the spot lol