Biased mods?

[Anebriated]

While this seems to be a far stretch(/sarcasm) I have noticed alot of this lately. Mods who have issues with a poster or the ideals of a poster take it out by deleting a thread/post which doesn't really deserve to be removed. Later the same mod will go on an off topic tangent but nothing is said or done to the mod. I can think of 3-4 mods who I have noticed this from a bit in the last month.

Then again, maybe its just me :shrug:

[Edaarin]

Aside from that unpleasant incident a month or two ago, I haven't really seen too many problems as far as post/thread removals go. Do moderators treat everyone nicely? Of course not. They're posters as well as moderators, and dislike bleeds through in what they post.

I'm trying to figure out what you could be referring to, and the only one that comes to mind for me is Tsa'ah and Iriscience. As far as I know (I am admittedly out of the loop), he hasn't actually edited anything of Iriscience's to make himself look better. Further, the only other recent instance I can immediately think of regarding any sort of editing at all is someone changing Ben's TIDAL WAVE thread post.

Again, I only just started reading/posting here again in the last week and a half, so you'll have to fill me in with examples if I'm missing something here.

EDIT: Also feel free to name names, since I don't really think anyone cares whether or not strangers agree with what they do/say.

[Edited on 12-29-2004 by Edaarin]

[Anebriated]

I wasnt directing it any any mods in particular, but its just something I have noticed. While the removal of Ben's post was one of the incidents, as was Tsa'ah vs Iriscience, they are not the only ones by far. I just think that in certain situations had they been another poster they would have been overlooked and no changes would have been made.

As for Tsa'ah vs. Iriscience, it's sort of sad to see a mod go after a poster because of a 'bought character' even though there are many posters who are/were posters on these boards but were never called out as Tsa'ah tried.

Just my 2 cents.

[imported_Kranar]

If you can point out specific examples (links to threads, moderators and members involved), either in here or if you're more comfortable to U2U me personally, that will be very helpful.

Thank you.

[Edited on 12-29-2004 by Kranar]

[Edaarin]

Based on some of the content of Ben's posts, I'm not at all surprised that it got pulled. Would it have been pulled if someone else had posted it? Assuming it was a racially insensitive/offensive remark, I'm going to have to venture that yes, it would have.

I went back and reread the tail end of the Tsa'ah/Iriscience "debate." While reading it was sort of like watching monkeys throw shit at each other, I wouldn't condemn it as a moderator bias. Technically since there's not supposed to be any gay bashing, if he wanted to be anal he could have edited Iriscience's post about showing him how to blow his boyfriend. Not the most mature exchange I've ever read here, but again I don't think any lines were crossed as far as abusing mod powers go.

Just my POV, but that one seemed more like a poster vs poster deal, not angry moderator vs angry poster deal.

[Edited on 12-29-2004 by Edaarin]

[Anebriated]

I think what bothers me most is that its become a "do as I say and not as I do" mentality with the mods.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Elrodin
I wasnt directing it any any mods in particular, but its just something I have noticed. While the removal of Ben's post was one of the incidents, as was Tsa'ah vs Iriscience, they are not the only ones by far. I just think that in certain situations had they been another poster they would have been overlooked and no changes would have been made.

Each mod has their own moderating style. What one mod will over look in a folder they are responsible for, another mod may be more strict. There are certain things no mod should over look.


As for Tsa'ah vs. Iriscience, it's sort of sad to see a mod go after a poster because of a 'bought character' even though there are many posters who are/were posters on these boards but were never called out as Tsa'ah tried.

I didn't call anyone out. The member had been called out by other members and by his own posts.

The point of me bringing up his purchasing habits was to point out truth in advertising. If he gets scammed out of real cash, he has a means of recovery if he chooses to pursue those avenues. His stance on scamming in game, no GM intervention, leaves the scammed with no avenue of recovery.

I certainly did not go "after" him. He just inserted himself into the debate and proved to be a viable example.


Just my 2 cents.

And you have no idea how appreciative I am that you chose to use this venue.

I've mentioned this in the past, and it certainly warrants repetition. Some posters mark themselves, via posting habits, with targets. Not surprisingly these folks are the first to scream bias when they are no longer allowed to continue with their posting habits. These are the same people that love to troll through old posts and point out where someone, who does not post in the same manner, got away with the same thing.

Mods are human. We're not automated, we're not jacked into the boards 24/7, we don't screen posts before they are posted, and we miss things. This is why every member has a report option. Yet when the shit hits the fan ... no one has bothered to report, yet they will make a post in a thread pointing out that the mod is not doing the job that they (the complainer) believes they should.

[Anebriated]

Im not asking you guys to screen every post, nor am I asking you to be perfect. I also tried to not name names so that mods wouldn't come here trying to show they are right.

To be honest I've been posting here for quite awhile and never noticed the report button. Then again I dont really care what is posted for the most part. I just wish the mods were more consistant with what they pull/let go. I dont mean all mods together, I mean each individual mod was more consistant.


Not surprisingly these folks are the first to scream bias when they are no longer allowed to continue with their posting habits.

It would seem that I was the one who 'mentioned' bias. It was not directed at any one event(Edaarin was the one who brought up the two recent events). I dont believe I have been told to stop my current posting habits though.


yet they will make a post in a thread pointing out that the mod is not doing the job that they (the complainer) believes they should.

If I should not have made the thread then you can go ahead and delete this folder.

While I may have been wrong to say you called out Iriscience you have definately pursued the fact that he bought a character. The fact he bought a character became irrevelent in the thread, I dont see how that applies to the scam. It wasnt so much of a 'debate' as you put it, rather Iriscience defending himself for how he chose to spend his money.

2 more cents.(funny how you think I should use the report button but support giving your 2 cents to the public)

Mods on these boards work fairly well. I've had issues with moderators and not seen eye to eye with them in the past, but hey, that's the nature of the beast.

Other than a few instances with me butting heads with policy (mods just enforce the policy) I've found that posting here has, for the most part, been fun. Just have to remember that the mods are people and each person views each TOS infraction differently. What Chica might let slide, Tsa'ah might not. Just as it goes.

Now, if you want a real look at biased mods and post deletion/editting take a look at the (now defunct) Stoner's Realm. It is extremely clear cut there, rather than just the squeaky wheel getting the grease.

Mind you, I do not think mods have made mistakes the past, they have, but for the most part they do do their job.

- Arkans

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Elrodin
Im not asking you guys to screen every post, nor am I asking you to be perfect. I also tried to not name names so that mods wouldn't come here trying to show they are right.

Perfectly understandable.


To be honest I've been posting here for quite awhile and never noticed the report button. Then again I dont really care what is posted for the most part. I just wish the mods were more consistant with what they pull/let go. I dont mean all mods together, I mean each individual mod was more consistant.

That's not an unreasonable request. Unfortunately some of us may need examples. It may be something you have perceived as bias, it may be something that was over looked, it may actually be bias, or there could be a reason one instance was over looked while the other was not.


It would seem that I was the one who 'mentioned' bias. It was not directed at any one event(Edaarin was the one who brought up the two recent events). I dont believe I have been told to stop my current posting habits though.

This I understand. I wasn't coming down on you at all.


If I should not have made the thread then you can go ahead and delete this folder.

I can't delete it and I wouldn't if I could. It's valid concern.


While I may have been wrong to say you called out Iriscience you have definately pursued the fact that he bought a character. The fact he bought a character became irrevelent in the thread, I dont see how that applies to the scam. It wasnt so much of a 'debate' as you put it, rather Iriscience defending himself for how he chose to spend his money.

And everyone has a right to defend themselves or their position. I felt it relevant in that if he felt scamming in was ok, it wouldn't be a stretch for him, in my opinion, to scam for real cash. As I pointed out, one scammed outside of the game has avenues of recovery. Those scammed in game, under his philosophy, would not. I simply called him on his denial after my statement was made. At that point it is member vs member. The only removals from that entire thread have been the off topic trolling.


2 more cents.(funny how you think I should use the report button but support giving your 2 cents to the public)

I was merely pointing out the habits of those that paint the targets on their back, an act that you have not participated in.

Report should be used when you feel something is off-topic or in violation. At that point it is up to the mod(s) of that particular folder to take action or not.

What you are doing is expressing a general concern in a venue meant for such things. You're not doing anything wrong at all.

[peam]

PayPal me $15 and you can post anything you want.

[Methais]

<<Each mod has their own moderating style. What one mod will over look in a folder they are responsible for, another mod may be more strict.>>

Not that I really give a shit, but I chuckled when I read that, because it sounded so.... SIMU-ish :ohshit:

[Ilvane]

It's not Simu-ish it's reality.

I am willing to let some things go, while Tsa'ah might not like the same thing in his folder. I'm one of the social forum mods, so I let you guys talk, but if something crosses the line, I'm very sure that I would take it out as fast as anyone else.

If someone crosses the line, I don't think any of the mods here would leave it be..and I really think that it happens to be the same people who do that quite often, so it may appear that there is some sort of 'bias'. Maybe I'm wrong though.

-A

[Miss X]

I think I'm probably less strict than I should be, however I will briefly mention me editing the Tidal Wave thread. I can say hand on heart that I would have changed the original thread title REGARDLESS of who it was that had started the thread. It's as simple as that.

Of course I have a personal problem with Ben's ideals I think 99% of all of the posters do, but that isnt reason alone to edit his posts. In actual fact I have only ever edited TWO of his posts, both of which I felt violated policy. If it had been anyone else, those posts would have still been edited.

We have to give a reason for every moderation we make, it's not like we can just go around editing things for fun or if we feel like it. I'm pretty sure that a pattern would emerge in our violations record and Kranar would pick up on that. I'll be honest Elrodin, I think you are seriously off the mark here, but of course you are entitled to your opinion, regardless of how I feel about it.

[AnticorRifling]

You're all lucky I don't control this folder or you'd all be DELETED!!!

Actually I think it is more the fact that each mod is a different person and as such they will react/respond to things in a different manner while still falling within the guidelines we have set. An example would be me, I don't think anyone's noticed but I think to date I've edited/deleted a post that isn't mine between 0 and 2 times and I'm leaning more towards the small side of that range. Why? Because the folders I see over don't get the flame fests and negative attention compared to some of the others. The high profile folders will always have more mod action because of simple volume.

In closing I'd like to say that today, with luck, the wife is going shopping and I might actually be able to play some GS without the theme music that is bitching and complaining.

[HarmNone]

SHM is right! It's a conspiracy! :spaz:

[MrFeature]

I can only think of one mod... I'm sure you can all guess his name. It starts with Tsa and ends with fucking moron.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
In closing I'd like to say that today, with luck, the wife is going shopping and I might actually be able to play some GS without the theme music that is bitching and complaining.

When are you going to give WoW a chance Anticor? You haven't heard wife bitching until you play that game with headphones on.

:sniffle:

Tsa guy recently deleted my post because I failed to read the fact that he said further derailments would be removed. And he did his job, a damn good job and continues to do so yet people seem fixated on him.

...What's your Tsa obsession?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
...What's your Tsa obsession?

I think he had the hots for Tsa`ah and didn't handle rejection well.

:(

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by HarmNone
SHM is right!

That wasn't ever questioned was it?

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage

Originally posted by HarmNone
SHM is right!

That wasn't ever questioned was it?

Only by PB, and nobody listens to him anyway...

HarmNone, in the process of fleeing far and fast :D

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage

Originally posted by HarmNone
SHM is right!

That wasn't ever questioned was it?

Only by PB, and nobody listens to him anyway...

HarmNone, in the process of fleeing far and fast :D

Someone wants to be punished...

;)

[Makkah]

Tsa's got a nice little history with deleting posts. He's so super.

rht

[The Korean]

I'd like to see any of the people who complain *constantly* about how the mods do their job, how you would do in their position, trying to keep your personal thoughts and feelings away from your judgement on what needs to be done. Sorry for them being human and having a breaking point in dealing with BS daily.

[Makkah]

I was a mod for Buck back about 3? 4? years ago. Maintained the position for about a year until I stepped back. It's not hard.


rht

[Anebriated]

I'd like to see any of the people who complain *constantly* about how the mods do their job, how you would do in their position

Was wondering if that would come up in this thread. Ask the mods for the records, I applied to be mod of the Ranger thread(still has no mod) about 10 months ago, when I was still actively playing GS. I was rejected for the sole reason of my post count not being high enough.

So yeah, if thats going to be your argument find another one.

edit: 1-5-2004 was the date I applied. So it was more like a year.

[Edited on 12-29-2004 by Elrodin]

[Latrinsorm]

I would delete every last post in the member journal section, and yell at Leloo for no good reason.

:yes:

[Edaarin]

There's a Ranger folder...?

[Anebriated]

Yes, and it gets more action than the warrior and cleric folders.

I think I also applied for the archery folder, but then again what do I know about archery. Only been an archer since old mangler.

[HarmNone]

If you apply for a position as moderator of a particular folder, and are refused because you haven't enough posts, try applying again when you've accumulated more posts.

I think the number of posts one has contributed is used, by Kranar, to determine one's interest and committment to the PC. I'm also pretty sure the quality of those posts is taken into consideration, as well as the number of posts.

If you have questions about the requirements, I'm sure Kranar would be happy to answer them. :)

[Anebriated]

I could care less about being a mod now. I dont keep up to date with either archery or rangers in GS anymore so I wouldn't be the best pick for a mod there. Next time I do try to become a mod ill make sure I jump into all of the flame wars and post hundreds of one line useless comments.

[imported_Kranar]

The minimum requirement is 2 times the average number of posts per member as of the date the application is submitted.

It is the most minor of requirements, and is there simply to give staff members some basis on which to evaluate the applicant's history on the forums.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I wouldn't want your bitter ass as a mod anyway!

Not that my opinion means spit on if you are qualified or not, but hell, I'll throw it out there!

[Anebriated]

More profound words by SHM. Thanks for the insight, you are an inspiration to us all.

[GSTamral]

Personally, accepting the responsibilities of a mod for no pay simply isn't worth it. There are always disgruntled people who will despise any mod.

from a management perspective, I don't see situations in which mods have ever blatantly abused authority to get their way. I do find a number of them to be aloof and disrespectful of outside views to the point of spewing insults, but I think the guidelines in which they have made rulings is not uncommon or unfair.

[Methais]

<<but if something crosses the line, I'm very sure that I would take it out as fast as anyone else.>>

You also pull posts that DON'T cross the line and shouldn't be pulled at all.

[peam]

Originally posted by Makkah
I was a mod for Buck back about 3? 4? years ago. Maintained the position for about a year until I stepped back. It's not hard.


rht

I'm pretty sure you were a mod in the Bard folder.

:lol:

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by GSTamral

from a management perspective, I don't see situations in which mods have ever blatantly abused authority to get their way

You should pay more attention then.

[Fengus]

I disagree with moderation in general because there is no time when its fair, or unbiased.

Anyone who says their views are unbiased are lying or decieving themselves.

Mods have power, power is abused in every way imaginable, most power abuse is subtle, and even indirect.

Take GMs, most people wouldn't dare speak their mind negatively for fear of banning or warnings, this isn't a GM abuse, but a percieved abuse. What are the checks and balances wrt to that power? Same goes here, but even without mods you'd still have that issue WRT the board owner/s. Although there seems to be some semblance of checks and balances here at PC, in the sense that there is an overview process.


The best moderation system I've seen yet is what Slashdot has, its more like a communal voting process, but works well.

[imported_Kranar]

Overall I think things have gone well in terms of policy the past couple of months. Far fewer violations are occuring, thanks to you guys, and when they do there is a much faster and maintainable way to deal with them.

The concern originally posted doesn't seem to have to do with bias, but rather comportment. It's a concern I leave to every staff member for themselves to think about in their own way. It's a concern I have thought about for myself long ago and have dealt with, but every staff member is free to consider it for themselves. As for an overall policy on how moderators must conduct themselves, there isn't any explicit one. There is an implicit acknowledgement that all staff members will work together as unified as possible, but as far as what a moderator is allowed to say or debate, it is no different than what a member is allowed to do.

Some moderators will be engaging, controversial, and direct, while others will remain passive, observant, and overall reserved. A moderator is free to choose which one is most appropriate but both types of moderating have, in my experience, helped the forums greatly. It can be called an inconsistency, but I see it more as diversity.

Anyhow, the concern is one I can respect and it may be something for us as staff to re-evaluate.

[Kaeynne]

Kranar, just wanted to thank you for setting this board up and attracting such a large user-base, without which I would not be able to effectively advertise my wares. Much respect from the player of Kaeynne and Elangle who both have grown to hate Kranar through various interactions over the years. :clap: Also the largest selection of smilies I've ever seen in a forum.
And to make this relevant; it sounds like there's some decent moderating going on and some disgruntled users effected by it who are exaggerating to gather support. But that's just my perspective with my measly <1000 posts.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<But that's just my perspective with my measly <1000 posts.>>

< 11.

[Kaeynne]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<But that's just my perspective with my measly <1000 posts.>>

< 11.

<11, please accept my apologies oh mighty king of posters.