Just to get things going....

[Scott]

Since it seems to be dead, I figured I would just throw something out there....

Why is it that Clerics seem to be ahead of other professions? They are now a "pure." They know their spell circle, and both minors are in the same circle.... Why is it that they are able to train in physical skills so much better then wizards/savants/etc? Paladins were brought in to be the "semi clerics," however they still will be the ultimate profession.

(I'm going to compare them with a wizard since those seem to be the most likely comparison. They both have their spell circle and know the major circles of their minor spell lists.)

Clerics can easily train in weapons more effectively then a wizard. However they are equal in the cost of learning spells and many mental attributes. What also really strikes me is the fact that for a wizard to train in spell aiming (their main attack) It costs 2 physical, 1 mental, and they can double. For a Cleric it is 3,1, and double. So now clerics can swing, bolt almost as effectively as a wizard, and have CS attack spells.

There are 38 skills that one can train in. For a wizard to train in EVERY skill once, it would cost, 193 physical, and 220 mental. For a cleric it will cost 155 physical, and 211 mental. Does it seem strange that they have the advantage in physical AND mental. I know this isn't accurate because nobody would train this way, but let me go on…..

Out of these 38 skills, 17 of them a cleric can train in easier (as in costing less TP's) then wizards. Only 6 of them a wizard can train easier in the skill then a cleric.

These are just some numbers I threw together rather quick, but it really seems that clerics have it in much easier then wizards and others. They a near semi's with the ability to cast like a pure.

There is only one explanation (although not a good one) on why they are able to train in physical skills better then other pures, and that is that they will NOT be able to reallocate as a Paladin, which a lot of clerics want to do. I'm all for not allowing ANYONE to reallocate as a new profession/race… but that is no reason to give any profession a little "edge."

These are just some thoughts I threw together in hopes to get the boards talking, I'm tired of listening to Jim/celtar bitch, whine and tell everyone that "I've been playing Gemstone for 12 years and roleplaying for 35 years, so I’m better then you!" on the other boards……

[Taernath]

Originally posted by Gemstone101
These are just some numbers I threw together rather quick, but it really seems that clerics have it in much easier then wizards and others. They a near semi's with the ability to cast like a pure.

Not quite. Past a certain point ROI catches up with them and they can no longer swing as effectively as a semi, nor can they get skills like redux to keep them alive. The only way they can continue swinging is if they train specifically for it, which means advancing up the MjS circle for bind. Considering that bind requires more mana to cast now, along with all the other set-up spells they need to use, I think clerics are roughly on par with wizards in terms of mana spent per kill.


I'm tired of listening to Jim/celtar bitch, whine and tell everyone that "I've been playing Gemstone for 12 years and roleplaying for 35 years, so I’m better then you!" on the other boards……

You gotta love that ignore function. :/

[Edited on 5/22/03 by Taernath]

[Whatever]

Heh.. I don't know if you've ever played a cleric, since you didn't mention that in your post.

I've played a cleric for something like 7 years now.. and that character is absolutely stuck at level 70-something. If she were a wizard, a rogue, a warrior, a sorcerer, or any of the other professions, she would be far older now.

Admittedly, because she was my first character, I didn't know how to play a cleric when I first started. I have a much better idea now, but regardless of TP costs for things like armor and weapons, she will *never* be as effective hunting at her current level as would a wizard.

Add in the fact that they totally screwed up 302 in my eyes.. I went into Shadow Valley just to play around, and was casting at the mares and steeds there. There's a 30-40 level difference there, and yet it was still taking 2-5 casts on average to kill each one. That's in offensive stance and with an empty right hand, too.

Most clerics are not efficient blade swingers. Dwarves and giants have it a bit easier in this regard, because they're naturally stronger. But my cleric is of elven descent, so her swing is embarrassingly weak. I've trained her 1x in weapons, CM, and shield.. and yet she is just absolutely useless when it comes to hunting with a blade.

I would wager that a wizard her level would find it much easier to hunt and continue advancing, regardless of categorizations, TP differences, etc.

That's just my opinion, based on my personal observations over the past few years.. I am currently a bit peeved that my character is stuck at that level, and because of the way I RP her, she's not about to be come one of the people who rescues people for the experience.

And I know that's my choice. <grin> I just don't think it's easier, weapons-wise, to be a cleric.

[Scott]

<<<Heh.. I don't know if you've ever played a cleric, since you didn't mention that in your post.>>>

I do, 79 trains.

<<I've played a cleric for something like 7 years now.. and that character is absolutely stuck at level 70-something. If she were a wizard, a rogue, a warrior, a sorcerer, or any of the other professions, she would be far older now.>>

My cleric trains faster then any of my characters. This is mostly due to meditation so that doesn't matter. I've had no trouble hunting yet.....

<<Admittedly, because she was my first character, I didn't know how to play a cleric when I first started. I have a much better idea now, but regardless of TP costs for things like armor and weapons, she will *never* be as effective hunting at her current level as would a wizard.>>

I disagree, my cleric can swing and cast. He has to bind first, but just bind it, then pluck away with a blade. OR I can just use 302, I've had no problems.

<<Add in the fact that they totally screwed up 302 in my eyes.. I went into Shadow Valley just to play around, and was casting at the mares and steeds there. There's a 30-40 level difference there, and yet it was still taking 2-5 casts on average to kill each one. That's in offensive stance and with an empty right hand, too.>>

I think it works just fine. Repel was a broken spell, it needed fixing. It also covered "the undead gap" without putting a lot of time into new hunting grounds.

<<Most clerics are not efficient blade swingers. Dwarves and giants have it a bit easier in this regard, because they're naturally stronger. But my cleric is of elven descent, so her swing is embarrassingly weak. I've trained her 1x in weapons, CM, and shield.. and yet she is just absolutely useless when it comes to hunting with a blade.>>

TK hunts OTF with a blade.... It's very possible.

<<I would wager that a wizard her level would find it much easier to hunt and continue advancing, regardless of categorizations, TP differences, etc.>>

I don't. My cleric trains just as fast as any of my wizards....

<<That's just my opinion, based on my personal observations over the past few years.. I am currently a bit peeved that my character is stuck at that level, and because of the way I RP her, she's not about to be come one of the people who rescues people for the experience.>>

I know what you mean. I've just had no trouble myself, if could be the differences in the way we hunt, or how our clerics are trained. I however hunt without and trouble with my cleric, and even faster with meditation (which will be gone though come GS4)

[Gokkem]

Ummm....

TK may hunt with blade in OTF, but that is so dang dangerous you will die lots. Swarms are huge there, and all it takes is one construct comin in while you in RT and it's all over. Even with semidux, my ranger has trouble surviving. Throw in the call wind that alot of critters cast there, and all classes die. Not rogues and warriors you say, well just wait til that weapon flares on them for an insta-kill.

Unless you have redux, or semidux at the least, blade hunting OTF is suicide.

Now, as far as clerics vs wizards go......they both have plusses and minuses. Sure, it's cheaper for the cleric to train in physical stuff easier than wizards. And their spell aiming cost allows them to have roughly the same SA skill as a wizard. But that in itself doesn't mean a cleric can bolt like a wizard can. For one, a cleric can't clear a room of 3,456,348 critters with 1 cast of cone. A cleric also doesn't have ball spells or haste. Even though they lowered the DF of lightning doesn't mean it's still not a killer spell. I've never bolted with a cleric, but I imagine the holy bolt spell (or whatever it is) doesn't even compare with the high DF of 910.

If I'm mistaken, please correct me.

[Edited on 05-22-03 by Gokkem]

[Scott]

<<Ummm....

TK may hunt with blade in OTF, but that is so dang dangerous you will die lots. Swarms are huge there, and all it takes is one construct comin in while you in RT and it's all over. Even with semidux, my ranger has trouble surviving. Throw in the call wind that alot of critters cast there, and all classes die. Not rogues and warriors you say, well just wait til that weapon flares on them for an insta-kill.>>

I know he does/did. He would bind, pulled out a naginata and 117 and start swinging. Use to see him do it with Griffins....

<<Unless you have redux, or semidux at the least, blade hunting OTF is suicide.>>

I didn't see him die much. He's got some nice items though, and for all I know, he might have semi dux from not doubling in spells, I'm not sure. He does use a blade though...

<<Now, as far as clerics vs wizards go......they both have plusses and minuses. Sure, it's cheaper for the cleric to train in physical stuff easier than wizards. And their spell aiming cost allows them to have roughly the same SA skill as a wizard. But that in itself doesn't mean a cleric can bolt like a wizard can. For one, a cleric can't clear a room of 3,456,348 critters with 1 cast of cone. A cleric also doesn't have ball spells or haste. Even though they lowered the DF of lightning doesn't mean it's still not a killer spell. I've never bolted with a cleric, but I imagine the holy bolt spell (or whatever it is) doesn't even compare with the high DF of 910. >>

A wizard also can't freeze critters, add 75 to AS.... I know they both have their plus's and minus's, however it seems weird to me that clerics have the advantage in physical and the same, if not better in many mental skills.

As for how well clerics bolt, I have yet to see it due to clerics currently only able to single in spell aiming, which will change come GS4. Also, holy bolt is EXTREMELY powerful against undead. You'll often see people getting aqua wands blessed which results in a form of holy bolt when hunting undead. It's VERY powerful against undead. Don't forget that clerics also have 111, which is 908.... That is also a multi hit spell, which combines with MOC which clerics will probably have.

[Taernath]

A cleric also doesn't have ball spells or haste.

111 functions as 908.

Also, holy bolt is EXTREMELY powerful against undead. You'll often see people getting aqua wands blessed which results in a form of holy bolt when hunting undead. It's VERY powerful against undead. Don't forget that clerics also have 111, which is 908.... That is also a multi hit spell, which combines with MOC which clerics will probably have.

Yes, but 306 is powerful only against the undead. Against the living it's like 903 but for twice the cost. Similar with 111, it functions as 908 but for a higher cost. Those are the -only- bolt spells clerics have, and all-in-all aren't a threat to wizard's bolt supremacy.

[Gokkem]

Originally posted by Gemstone101
<<Ummm....

TK may hunt with blade in OTF, but that is so dang dangerous you will die lots. Swarms are huge there, and all it takes is one construct comin in while you in RT and it's all over. Even with semidux, my ranger has trouble surviving. Throw in the call wind that alot of critters cast there, and all classes die. Not rogues and warriors you say, well just wait til that weapon flares on them for an insta-kill.>>

I know he does/did. He would bind, pulled out a naginata and 117 and start swinging. Use to see him do it with Griffins....

<<Unless you have redux, or semidux at the least, blade hunting OTF is suicide.>>

I didn't see him die much. He's got some nice items though, and for all I know, he might have semi dux from not doubling in spells, I'm not sure. He does use a blade though...

<<Now, as far as clerics vs wizards go......they both have plusses and minuses. Sure, it's cheaper for the cleric to train in physical stuff easier than wizards. And their spell aiming cost allows them to have roughly the same SA skill as a wizard. But that in itself doesn't mean a cleric can bolt like a wizard can. For one, a cleric can't clear a room of 3,456,348 critters with 1 cast of cone. A cleric also doesn't have ball spells or haste. Even though they lowered the DF of lightning doesn't mean it's still not a killer spell. I've never bolted with a cleric, but I imagine the holy bolt spell (or whatever it is) doesn't even compare with the high DF of 910. >>

A wizard also can't freeze critters, add 75 to AS.... I know they both have their plus's and minus's, however it seems weird to me that clerics have the advantage in physical and the same, if not better in many mental skills.

As for how well clerics bolt, I have yet to see it due to clerics currently only able to single in spell aiming, which will change come GS4. Also, holy bolt is EXTREMELY powerful against undead. You'll often see people getting aqua wands blessed which results in a form of holy bolt when hunting undead. It's VERY powerful against undead. Don't forget that clerics also have 111, which is 908.... That is also a multi hit spell, which combines with MOC which clerics will probably have.

Have you ever hunted OTF?

[Taernath]

*thwap*

Don't quote his whole post just to say that! :D