Buyer Beware!

[drauz]

We understand that buying and selling is an important aspect in GemStone IV, but Elanthia is a buyer beware world. What this means is, if someone sells you something that wasn't theirs to sell or the item properties aren't what they were advertised, this is on you, the buyer to do the research involved to do business with this person. Many of you do this with larger purchases already by establishing a middleman.

This isn't to punish any of our players, but going forward, if you end up getting involved with someone selling stolen inventory, those items will get confiscated with no sort of reimbursement. Permanent lockouts may be placed on your account depending on your involvement. We understand there is no way to determine whether or not something is stolen ahead of time, but if it's a character you've never seen before, use caution. If they deal with known thieves or practice shady behaviors, don't do business with them. If someone is selling SimuCoin items at a virtual loss from the get go, consider it too good to be true and don't bother dealing with that person.

APM Wyrom

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/GemStone%20IV%20Announcements/Important%20Announcements/view/2675

This seems shitty if you get ripped off and have no way of knowing. I hope they are a little flexible and would work with you somewhat on getting your coin back.

I assume this has something to do with this:

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?107575-Academy-Cube-Finds

[Taernath]

That just sounds like they're restating the position they've always had.

[drauz]

That just sounds like they're restating the position they've always had.

Never had to deal with it, so its news to me!

[crb]

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/GemStone%20IV%20Announcements/Important%20Announcements/view/2675

This seems shitty if you get ripped off and have no way of knowing. I hope they are a little flexible and would work with you somewhat on getting your coin back.

I assume this has something to do with this:

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?107575-Academy-Cube-Finds

This seems like contradictory policy.

A. Buyer beware, we won't get involved in transactions.

B. If someone steals something and sells it, then we will get involved.

So one form of stealing is okay, the other is not.

[Neovik1]

Yeah I'm a little confused by this. I don't deal with cash transactions and will never deal in cash with other players. So if I buy from someone selling over the amulet or lnet with in game coins I can be held accountable if the item was stolen? How the heck would I or anyone else know this?

[ktig]

This seems like contradictory policy.

A. Buyer beware, we won't get involved in transactions.
B. If someone steals something and sells it, then we will get involved.
So one form of stealing is okay, the other is not.


I see A being more around falsely-advertised items or items not delivered, versus B landing in the realm of real and actionable criminal activity. According to the fiasco played out in the other thread mentioned, there were stolen credit cards and money laundering through the microtransactions. Simu was out money too.

[drauz]

Yeah I'm a little confused by this. I don't deal with cash transactions and will never deal in cash with other players. So if I buy from someone selling over the amulet or lnet with in game coins I can be held accountable if the item was stolen? How the heck would I or anyone else know this?

https://media.giphy.com/media/12NUbkX6p4xOO4/giphy.gif

[Taernath]

Yeah I'm a little confused by this. I don't deal with cash transactions and will never deal in cash with other players. So if I buy from someone selling over the amulet or lnet with in game coins I can be held accountable if the item was stolen? How the heck would I or anyone else know this?

They said it depends on your involvement. For 99% of people there won't be an issue (except for being out of the coins you paid).

[Neovik1]

They said it depends on your involvement. For 99% of people there won't be an issue (except for being out of the coins you paid).

Which is still pretty shitty. If they identify that there is a stolen item and can confiscate it and return it. They should be able to do the same for the coins.

[macgyver]

Don't agree with the stolen items bit (forgiveness please Lord Wyrom!). Under these guidelines if you unknowingly received stolen goods and re-sold it at a later date for profit, your account could be banned or whatever.

It's a bit too grey, and I think known/popular merchants will have an extreme advantage in that they will be given generous "benefit of the doubt" while lesser known merchants (who are genuinely honest but got bamboozled) will be guilty before proven innocent. Clarification is required on these important policy details.

[Luntz]

So basically if someone can scam simu out of simucoin items, it falls on us the unknowing consumer to fix their mistakes? This seems like some backwards logic, maybe simu should patch the holes in their simucoin store and make it harder to scam instead of putting all that onto innocent players.

[Neovik1]

So if I buy an item from a player shop and it's later found out it was stolen I can be punished by using the mechanics of the game to purchase items?

Lots of questions with Wyrom's statement.

[macgyver]

So basically if someone can scam simu out of simucoin items, it falls on us the unknowing consumer to fix their mistakes? This seems like some backwards logic, maybe simu should patch the holes in their simucoin store and make it harder to scam instead of putting all that onto innocent players.

This is my main concern since I deal mostly in Simucoins (and buy a significant amount of), the fungibility between Simucoin->Silvers->RL $->Simucoin makes this very grey. I don't deal with player2player RL$ transactions but I am definitely concerned about Simucoin purchases because I use that as my medium to access in-game currency/items.

tldr: I just don't want to get banned because I got suckered into some scam using Simucoins. I'm just a "player player" not a GS merchant or other more sophisticated Gemstone seller guy.

[Taernath]

Which is still pretty shitty. If they identify that there is a stolen item and can confiscate it and return it. They should be able to do the same for the coins.

Maybe. They've always had a hard stance on getting involved in player scams though, especially if these scams involve RL money.

[macgyver]

Maybe. They've always had a hard stance on getting involved in player scams though, especially if these scams involve RL money.

If it involves RL money between player 2 player you should not waste Simu's time. They're policy from the get go was "we don't like RL $ player2player selling but will turn a blind eye because we can't stop it". My advice, go through paypal instead.

[Neovik1]

Yeah for me I'm only talking about in game currency.

[Taernath]

Yeah for me I'm only talking about in game currency.

Even then they don't get involved. That's why there are 'buy at your own risk' signs in player shops.

[macgyver]

Even then they don't get involved. That's why there are 'buy at your own risk' signs in player shops.

I've actually had GMs reverse a transaction on more than 1 occassion but this was way way back in the day.

[Eodus]

I'd just like someone to explain to me how a person could sink so low as to scam hard-working nerds like us out of our hard-earned imaginary money, when they would honestly find more profit from a minimum-wage job.

What's the most one of these scammers is going to scam? Twenty million? Thirty... maybe? Not without going unnoticed in our tightly-knit community. And honestly, what's $10 times 40 hours? Compare that against the current going rate of silver, and we have only one conclusion. A GS scammer would then have to be super... SUPER lazy. And also the absolute worst at math.

My advice is simple. If you don't know the seller, use a middle man or ask for references. If you're still unsure, write up a RW contract for $10 from LegalZoom and submit for digital signature via Adobe Sign with verified name & address info on both ends. It is possible to virtually eliminate any risk associated with a large transaction, so long as you follow the right steps and there is sufficient transparency on both sides.

[macgyver]

I'd just like someone to explain to me how a person could sink so low as to scam hard-working nerds like us out of our hard-earned imaginary money, when they would honestly find more profit from a minimum-wage job.

What's the most one of these scammers is going to scam? Twenty million? Thirty... maybe? Not without going unnoticed in our tightly-knit community. And honestly, what's $10 times 40 hours? Compare that against the current going rate of silver, and we have only one conclusion. A GS scammer would then have to be super... SUPER lazy. And also the absolute worst at math.

My advice is simple. If you don't know the seller, use a middle man or ask for references. If you're still unsure, write up a RW contract for $10 from LegalZoom and submit for digital signature via Adobe Sign with verified name & address info on both ends. It is possible to virtually eliminate any risk associated with a large transaction, so long as you follow the right steps and there is sufficient transparency on both sides.

Piggybacking on your idea, we could make in-game contracts, since 80% of GS are based around items and merchanting I think it's warranted.

I guess mechanically speaking you can have an item description being traded along with all stats etc. and the unique identifier for that item (which are tagged on all Gemstone items) and the amount of silvers being exchanged. You "sign" be typing an in-game password separate from your account password. This password being setup through moot hall or wherever. Might make things much more safe because then there is a record for GMs to peruse.

Could also be extended to Simucoin items, since most Simucoin stuff come in in-game item form.

[Eodus]

Piggybacking on your idea, we could make in-game contracts, since 80% of GS are based around items and merchanting I think it's warranted.

I guess mechanically speaking you can have an item description being traded along with all stats etc. and the unique identifier for that item (which are tagged on all Gemstone items) and the amount of silvers being exchanged. You "sign" be typing an in-game password separate from your account password. This password being setup through moot hall or wherever. Might make things much more safe because then there is a record for GMs to peruse.

Could also be extended to Simucoin items, since most Simucoin stuff come in in-game item form.

I wouldn't say that 80% of GS is based around items and merchanting. I spend far more of my time using the things that I buy than I do acquiring them. When I tire of them, I sell them, and buy something new.

I'm sure what you describe here would be possible, but constitutes more data being collected and more management. Overly complex. Keep it simple. Buyer beware.

And honestly, don't you think that if Simu could afford to take on any more liability than they currently have, that you would be seeing more paid ads for Gemstone at the ren faire rather than spending it to develop a complex contractual trading system for the few that would ever use it instead?

[Gelston]

Haha, someone took the bait.

[Tisket]

I'd say this was really good news for established, well known merchants, no? Less risk buying from them.

I don't know though, I was never much into the merchant end of the game. My first thought when I read the OP was, "This is why we can't have nice things!"

[Peppwyn]

I don't think Simutronics should have any hand in outside sales of items or characters. If you buy something from a black market, you're susceptible to some amount of fraud.

[Gelston]

I don't think Simutronics should have any hand in outside sales of items or characters. If you buy something from a black market, you're susceptible to some amount of fraud.

They only do when it costs them money, such as scamming them with fake CCs for GoAs... so like, you use a fkae CC for GoAs, use GoA balance to hit an event, get prizes from event, sell prizes... Simu is taking all that back.

[Wyrom]

Keep in mind, if something is cross posted, I typically only respond to the officials. Most of this has been answered over there.

Let me explain with some examples to some of the concerns mentioned here.

If you buy from someone who is selling stolen items, depending what it is, I may need to confiscate it. If it wasn't theirs to sell, for example. I can tell you of a few situations where this has happened where someone's account was hacked and they strip a character and sell the items. If you pay with cash or paypal, I can't help you. If you paid with silver, I typically refund everyone. I don't think a single person in the last 7 years has walked away from a situation like this just completely SOL when silvers are involved.

Now let's say you dealt with the thief, I worked with you or warned you not to deal with them anymore, and you keep doing it. You get ripped off again. I'm likely not going to help you. Now this goes with the assumption you knew who you were dealing with. If you didn't (new character, account, etc) then judgment isn't going to be placed on you.

If you get more involved beyond that and start aiding the process, you're likely to be locked away for good.

Should you be worried about buying something from a player shop? No. Should you be worried about making a legitimate purchase via the thoughtnet (lol wut)? No. You see someone hawking items on lnet that you don't know? Get someone to vouch for them. You see someone selling things at a net loss in an odd manner? Definitely something to use caution about. You see someone moving thousands of dollars of items that you've never heard of? Let staff know.

[Donquix]

Keep in mind, if something is cross posted, I typically only respond to the officials. Most of this has been answered over there.

Let me explain with some examples to some of the concerns mentioned here.

If you buy from someone who is selling stolen items, depending what it is, I may need to confiscate it. If it wasn't theirs to sell, for example. I can tell you of a few situations where this has happened where someone's account was hacked and they strip a character and sell the items. If you pay with cash or paypal, I can't help you. If you paid with silver, I typically refund everyone. I don't think a single person in the last 7 years has walked away from a situation like this just completely SOL when silvers are involved.

Now let's say you dealt with the thief, I worked with you or warned you not to deal with them anymore, and you keep doing it. You get ripped off again. I'm likely not going to help you. Now this goes with the assumption you knew who you were dealing with. If you didn't (new character, account, etc) then judgment isn't going to be placed on you.

If you get more involved beyond that and start aiding the process, you're likely to be locked away for good.

Should you be worried about buying something from a player shop? No. Should you be worried about making a legitimate purchase via the thoughtnet (lol wut)? No. You see someone hawking items on lnet that you don't know? Get someone to vouch for them. You see someone selling things at a net loss in an odd manner? Definitely something to use caution about. You see someone moving thousands of dollars of items that you've never heard of? Let staff know.

There's this Ardwen fucker that just popped up and is selling a bunch of shit here. Seems shadey as hell.

[Wyrom]

Ardwen isn't a character, but a merchant system that was coded in the 90s.

[Tisket]

lol

[Androidpk]

Ardwen isn't a character, but a merchant system that was coded in the 90s.

That explains so much!

[macgyver]

This is just going to make things so much harder for new up and coming merchants, I only sell things over the amunet, call me old school but I know that's idiotic and anyone who wants to really merchant will sell over Lich or here. I fear further trickle up in the wealth o meter. Ah well.

[macgyver]

In other news, I loved Summit Academy!!

[beldannon5]

I hated summit academy. Like wyrom said this one wasnt for me. A lot of cubes a lot of nothing.

[Neovik1]

Keep in mind, if something is cross posted, I typically only respond to the officials. Most of this has been answered over there.

Let me explain with some examples to some of the concerns mentioned here.

If you buy from someone who is selling stolen items, depending what it is, I may need to confiscate it. If it wasn't theirs to sell, for example. I can tell you of a few situations where this has happened where someone's account was hacked and they strip a character and sell the items. If you pay with cash or paypal, I can't help you. If you paid with silver, I typically refund everyone. I don't think a single person in the last 7 years has walked away from a situation like this just completely SOL when silvers are involved.

Now let's say you dealt with the thief, I worked with you or warned you not to deal with them anymore, and you keep doing it. You get ripped off again. I'm likely not going to help you. Now this goes with the assumption you knew who you were dealing with. If you didn't (new character, account, etc) then judgment isn't going to be placed on you.

If you get more involved beyond that and start aiding the process, you're likely to be locked away for good.

Should you be worried about buying something from a player shop? No. Should you be worried about making a legitimate purchase via the thoughtnet (lol wut)? No. You see someone hawking items on lnet that you don't know? Get someone to vouch for them. You see someone selling things at a net loss in an odd manner? Definitely something to use caution about. You see someone moving thousands of dollars of items that you've never heard of? Let staff know.

Thanks Wyrom! This sounds extremely reasonable to me! I only use in game currency for GS. If I do anything in cash it's only to buy from the simu store.

[Neovik1]

I hated summit academy. Like wyrom said this one wasnt for me. A lot of cubes a lot of nothing.

I only did a couple 250 cubes and didn't find anything. But there still was a good return on each cube where there was a small loss which didn't seem bad at all for the chance at good stuff. Definitely a lot better than DM.

[macgyver]

Cubes were fucking 10x better than that stupid dollhouse. I actually felt reasonably decent coming out of that even without a big win.

[drauz]

Keep in mind, if something is cross posted, I typically only respond to the officials. Most of this has been answered over there.

Let me explain with some examples to some of the concerns mentioned here.

If you buy from someone who is selling stolen items, depending what it is, I may need to confiscate it. If it wasn't theirs to sell, for example. I can tell you of a few situations where this has happened where someone's account was hacked and they strip a character and sell the items. If you pay with cash or paypal, I can't help you. If you paid with silver, I typically refund everyone. I don't think a single person in the last 7 years has walked away from a situation like this just completely SOL when silvers are involved.

Now let's say you dealt with the thief, I worked with you or warned you not to deal with them anymore, and you keep doing it. You get ripped off again. I'm likely not going to help you. Now this goes with the assumption you knew who you were dealing with. If you didn't (new character, account, etc) then judgment isn't going to be placed on you.

If you get more involved beyond that and start aiding the process, you're likely to be locked away for good.

Should you be worried about buying something from a player shop? No. Should you be worried about making a legitimate purchase via the thoughtnet (lol wut)? No. You see someone hawking items on lnet that you don't know? Get someone to vouch for them. You see someone selling things at a net loss in an odd manner? Definitely something to use caution about. You see someone moving thousands of dollars of items that you've never heard of? Let staff know.

Thank you for the more detailed response.

[Luxelle]

Ardwen isn't a character, but a merchant system that was coded in the 90s.

Quote of the week... :)

[Luxelle]

Thank you for the more detailed response.

I'm going to echo this, thanks @Wyrom.

[Enuch]

Quote of the week... :)

That's signature worthy in my opinion. When I first read it I about laughed myself into a black out.

[macgyver]

He is joking though right?

[drauz]

He is joking though right?

No, it has slowly gained sentience and opened its own PC profile.

[MotleyCrew]

I am hard for new up and coming merchants, call me old and idiotic but, I do not fear further trickle.

fixed