So, free speech..even if it offends?

[Ilvane]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,142338,00.html

It's one of those reminders, if we want to have free speech, or freedom of expression, we even have to allow it for people like this.

-A

[Nieninque]

Why is that so offensive?

[Ilvane]

It's the confederate flag.

That's good enough reason for me.:)

-A

[Drew]

Originally posted by Nieninque
Why is that so offensive?

Some people consider the confederate flag a symbol of racism.

[Nieninque]

How come?
<-----Genuinely interested.

It's like being pro-slavery, fucking dumb, and hanging onto a lost "cause," Although Stonewall was cool.

[Ilvane]

Because the flag is used as a symbol by racists, including the Aryan Nation, it's a symbol of slavery, and the old South..

There are actually many reasons.

-A

[Drew]

Originally posted by Nieninque
How come?
<-----Genuinely interested.


Well, I'm not sure how much you know, but in America's Civil War the south (Confederacy) fought under the Confederate battle flag (the flag that most people call the Confederate Flag wasn't actually the flag of the proposed country, it was just their battle banner, the actual confedrate flag looks different). Since one of the issues that led to the Civil War was slave ownerships and the South was the side supporting that, the Confedrate battle flag is considered a symbol of racism by many. Others just say they show it to remember their southern heritage, some of the other things the confederacy stood for other than slavery were actually good ideas.

Myself, I couldn't care less, if the girl wants to look like an idiot, the government cannot stop her from doing so (unless she went to a private school, they can do whatever they want).

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Nieninque
How come?
<-----Genuinely interested.

Wow we sent you back over the pond and you American history stopped at 1776 for you huh? :cool:

[Hulkein]

Because the South had that flag during the Civil War.

I don't see why it is very offensive, it's not as if the North was completely against racism, it's just the South was fighting for what kept their economy going and the North was fighting to keep the Union together.

I dunno, I guess it all depends on the girl wearing it. Depending on if she disliked blacks or just loved her heritage.

You know Mississippi didn't equal their pre-civil war economic output until 1955?

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by AnticorRifling

Originally posted by Nieninque
How come?
<-----Genuinely interested.

Wow we sent you back over the pond and you American history stopped at 1776 for you huh? :cool:

Errr...what's American History?

[Drew]

Well, our British history post 1776 isn't so great.

war of 1812.... victoria... some stuff happens..... WORLD WAR I..... WORLD WAR II..... thatcher.

That's about it.

[Nieninque]

So I guess that would equate to someone wearing a BNP dress.
It is a difficult balance, free speech and all that.
Personally I think there are more important things than free speech...but I recognise that there is a very fine line between appropriate consorship and oppression.

[Drew]

There's no such thing as too much free speech in my mind. So I guess you live on the right side of your pond for your beliefs.

[Nieninque]

we have no patriot act

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Nieninque
we have no patriot act

You have not patriots.

[Drew]

Originally posted by Nieninque
we have no patriot act


Patriot act expires and isn't being used like the fear-mongers would have you believe.

On the plus side, we don't have CCTV.

[Nieninque]

Sure you have CCTV...we watch it on Sky.

And if you think we have no patriots...come to any Scotland v England encounter

What the hell is CCTV?

[Nieninque]

closed Circuit Television

They have cameras in the street which drew thinks is some invasion of privacy.

He doesnt realise though that they are ALWAYS FACING THE WRONG FUCKING WAY

[Darnell]

Originally posted by Nieninque
Why is that so offensive?

You call ME a racist for playing on stereotypes and then you ask THAT? Someone really needs to slap whatever liquor company is responsible for your exsistance. I'm willing to bet it was Wild Turkey

D
"That's like asking how is guy in a white robe, pointy white hood standing next to a burning cross is offensive

Yo, there was this website where you can control a camera mounted on a streetlight in Time Square. But I forget it.

[Keller]

Originally posted by Drew

Originally posted by Nieninque
Why is that so offensive?

Some people consider the confederate flag a symbol of racism.

And some people think the swastika was a navajo symbol of peace.

Reverse swastika is a Norwegian peace symbol I'm pretty sure.

[Kainen]

The thing people have to remember about Free Speech is the same thing you have to remember about anything.. just because you CAN doesn't always mean you SHOULD. In life, if you don't learn how to compromise a little in some areas.. those same freedoms can come back and bite you in the ass. I guess you have to decide how important it is for you to wave that Confederate flag or wear that swastica.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Darnell

Originally posted by Nieninque
Why is that so offensive?

You call ME a racist for playing on stereotypes and then you ask THAT? Someone really needs to slap whatever liquor company is responsible for your exsistance. I'm willing to bet it was Wild Turkey

D
"That's like asking how is guy in a white robe, pointy white hood standing next to a burning cross is offensive

Actually, you are quite stupid.
Dont think that everyone around the world gives a flying fuck about your ten minute US history. I was quite interested, but it would be the attitude of pompous arrogant fuckwits like you that would make me lose interest rapidly.

The confederate flag to me, means the losing side of the US civil war. I know fuck all about the US civil war. Why would I?

I know of a custom in the UK where every november 5th, people get dressed in white robes and carry burning crosses up the street to much acclaim, not to celebrate racism, but to commemorate 17 martyrs that were burned at the stake by the Catholics.

Take your finger out yer arse and realise that the world does not revolve around the good old US of A

[Artha]

...and realise that the world does not revolve around the good old US of A

A couple more years, yet.

[Kainen]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Darnell

Originally posted by Nieninque
Why is that so offensive?

You call ME a racist for playing on stereotypes and then you ask THAT? Someone really needs to slap whatever liquor company is responsible for your exsistance. I'm willing to bet it was Wild Turkey

D
"That's like asking how is guy in a white robe, pointy white hood standing next to a burning cross is offensive

Actually, you are quite stupid.
Dont think that everyone around the world gives a flying fuck about your ten minute US history. I was quite interested, but it would be the attitude of pompous arrogant fuckwits like you that would make me lose interest rapidly.

The confederate flag to me, means the losing side of the US civil war. I know fuck all about the US civil war. Why would I?

I know of a custom in the UK where every november 5th, people get dressed in white robes and carry burning crosses up the street to much acclaim, not to celebrate racism, but to commemorate 17 martyrs that were burned at the stake by the Catholics.

Take your finger out yer arse and realise that the world does not revolve around the good old US of A

As usual, you are missing the point, as this topic IS concerning an issue IN the good old US of A.

instead of pitting Americans against Brits, we should be making kissy-kissy. :kiss: Oh man, I'm clever like the fox.

-Stanley

[Eiderfleur]

Originally posted by Kainen

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Darnell

Originally posted by Nieninque
Why is that so offensive?

You call ME a racist for playing on stereotypes and then you ask THAT? Someone really needs to slap whatever liquor company is responsible for your exsistance. I'm willing to bet it was Wild Turkey

D
"That's like asking how is guy in a white robe, pointy white hood standing next to a burning cross is offensive

Actually, you are quite stupid.
Dont think that everyone around the world gives a flying fuck about your ten minute US history. I was quite interested, but it would be the attitude of pompous arrogant fuckwits like you that would make me lose interest rapidly.

The confederate flag to me, means the losing side of the US civil war. I know fuck all about the US civil war. Why would I?

I know of a custom in the UK where every november 5th, people get dressed in white robes and carry burning crosses up the street to much acclaim, not to celebrate racism, but to commemorate 17 martyrs that were burned at the stake by the Catholics.

Take your finger out yer arse and realise that the world does not revolve around the good old US of A

As usual, you are missing the point, as this topic IS concerning an issue IN the good old US of A.


I think the point Nien was making here is not everyone here knows about why the confederate flag is so racist.


Nien was actually curious and wanted to know more until Darnell started in on her.

As you can see from one of her posts she was saying she really was curious about why it was racist because she had no idea.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Ilvane
It's one of those reminders, if we want to have free speech, or freedom of expression, we even have to allow it for people like this.


Actually, I believe free speech was designed specifically to allow speech that offends.

Why? What offends me may not offend you. I find racism offensive, others do not. I don't find people bashing Bush offensive, some do.

By protecting offensive language, the majority can not shut down the minority voice simply by claiming what they say is offensive.

Jorddyn, just my opinion

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Nieninque
I know of a custom in the UK where every november 5th, people get dressed in white robes and carry burning crosses up the street to much acclaim, not to celebrate racism, but to commemorate 17 martyrs that were burned at the stake by the Catholics.


Somehow, I don't think that'd go over big here :D

Jorddyn

[Drew]

Originally posted by Nieninque
Sure you have CCTV...we watch it on Sky.

Whenever the government trys to set up some CCTV there's always a big backlash. I was referring to government run CCTV, not privately run CCTV.

[Meos]

Fuckin yokles... The only thing shes guilty of is having bad taste and she might win a couple thousand dollars for it. Though I really doubt it.

Now, this guy in Chicago putting a huge confederate flag in his back yard right down the street from section 8 housing... thats funny.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Meos
Now, this guy in Chicago putting a huge confederate flag in his back yard right down the street from section 8 housing... thats funny.

Ah, culling the herd...

Jorddyn

[imported_Kranar]

<< Actually, I believe free speech was designed specifically to allow speech that offends. >>

The Supreme Court ruled that the first amendment does not apply to obscenity nor does it apply to hate.

That is why the government has some discretion in legislating against them, i.e. obscenity laws and laws that restrict publishing things like the holocaust never happened, or other racist propaganda.

[Valthissa]

Originally posted by Kranar
<< Actually, I believe free speech was designed specifically to allow speech that offends. >>

The Supreme Court ruled that the first amendment does not apply to obscenity nor does it apply to hate.

That is why the government has some discretion in legislating against them, i.e. obscenity laws and laws that restrict publishing things like the holocaust never happened, or other racist propaganda.

In a fairly famous counter example, JB Stoner was allowed to say the most vile things in his 1972 congressional race. The FCC, which was led by Benjamin Hooks (an african american) refused to limit his speech, saying that the public had a remedy for the matter, called voting. Stoner was, of course, defeated in a landslide.

I agree with the basic premise - the SCOTUS has ruled that the first amendment has limits.

C/Valth

Her right to do it. Freedom of speech and all that.

- Arkans

PS: We know the limies are jelous of America. All of Europe is! :D:D:D

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Kranar
<< Actually, I believe free speech was designed specifically to allow speech that offends. >>

The Supreme Court ruled that the first amendment does not apply to obscenity nor does it apply to hate.


And, that is where law is a bit unclear. Offensive speech is protected except in cases of inciting a riot (and perhaps one or two other exceptions). Obscene speech is not. Defining the difference is a bit difficult.

Additionally, I believe free speech does apply to hate, it just limits the forum in which it is allowed (see: inciting a riot).

Jorddyn

Edited because I've been drinking

[Edited on 12-23-2004 by Jorddyn]

[Darnell]

Actually, you are quite stupid.
Dont think that everyone around the world gives a flying fuck about your ten minute US history. I was quite interested, but it would be the attitude of pompous arrogant fuckwits like you that would make me lose interest rapidly.

Is that all you can ever do? Sling names towards me? I know you can do better then that. Nevermind, I know you can't. Call me pompous, arrogant, a fuckwit (whatever the hell THAT is) if you want, that still doesn't change that fact that when called out on something, all you ever do is cower behind your insults. Now if you were actually educated on history enough, you'd realize that the reason this part of "US History" even exsists is because of your limey ass. Then again, why would anyone want to know or even care about anything outside their own little box?


The confederate flag to me, means the losing side of the US civil war. I know fuck all about the US civil war. Why would I?

Your ignorance never ceases to amaze me and I'm not easily amazed. It's more about what do you know, other then why, but whatever.


I know of a custom in the UK where every november 5th, people get dressed in white robes and carry burning crosses up the street to much acclaim, not to celebrate racism, but to commemorate 17 martyrs that were burned at the stake by the Catholics.

Ahh yes, white robes....burning crosses...martyrs, but where are their white hoods that I mentioned? Not the same without the hood killer. That is unless you're the Grand Wizard sporting his red robe, red pointy hood and supreme burning cross. Maybe if you actually read what I stated and not tried to twist it for your own purposes, you wouldn't have made yourself out to be even dumber then I had previously assumed. A date in Novemember can never be compared to a Saturday Night in some southern states.


Take your finger out yer arse and realise that the world does not revolve around the good old US of A

I think I'm in a better position with my finger in my "arse" then you are with your head up yours. What I speak of has nothing to do with the "good old US of A", it's much broader then that my knuckleheaded limey. The mere fact you can go and call me a racist and then not even know one of the brutal roots of racism is something I find fasinating.....actually, it's more offensive then anything.



I think the point Nien was making here is not everyone here knows about why the confederate flag is so racist.


Nien was actually curious and wanted to know more until Darnell started in on her.

As you can see from one of her posts she was saying she really was curious about why it was racist because she had no idea.

That'd be acceptable if she wasn't claiming that I was racist a few days ago and then doesn't even know one of the most clear displays of racism. Unfortunately for her and my productivity at work, she made a stupid statement, knowing that I'll blow her up on it the first chance I get after her little rants the other day.

Spin it how you want, you're ignorant. It'd be like me calling someone stupid for not passing the driver license road test and then failing the written test the next day.

D
"Realize the motive and the topic are two entities and you'll understand"

FUCKING PWNED!!!!!!!!!!111111111

- Arkans

[Kainen]

Originally posted by Arkans
FUCKING PWNED!!!!!!!!!!111111111

- Arkans

Wow, for once I am in full agreement with Arkans

[Methais]

I'm originally from Boston, but having lived in Louisiana for the past 11 years (you know, in the deep south where cotton was picked for the Plantation massa and all), I know a LOT of people that sport Confederate flags (be it a banner hung on their front porch amid their 4723897432 broken down cars in their front yard, bumper stickers, shirts, whatever the fuck) that aren't racist in the least bit. Believe it or not, a lot of people actually do see it as a symbol of heritage and not because they think black slaves should be out working in their fields or anything having to do with racism at all.

Personally I think it's a pretty dumb concept of people trying to hang onto a lost war, but the point I'm making is that "Confederate" (for lack of a better term) people really do exist that aren't racist, and I know this first hand. Anyone that says I'm wrong is just blowing smoke out of their ass. I seriously doubt a non racist would go around sporting a Confederate flag if it was a symbol of racism.

Of course there's also "Confederates" that are racist, but there's also "Non-Confederates" that are racist. Not every "Confederate" is a racist, and not every racist is a "Confederate". The majority of you people are just being ignorant.

This is the first time I've EVER heard of the Confederate flag (or battle banner or whatever the fuck you people are calling it) said to be a symbol of racism.

It could also depend what region of the country you live in. Down here if people see a Confederate flag, thinking "OMG he must be racist!!!!!11" doesn't cross their mind. Somewhere further up north I'm sure it could be perceived quite differently. It boils down to ignorance and generalization...mostly ignorance though.

<<Take your finger out yer arse and realise that the world does not revolve around the good old US of A>>

Sure it does. Oh, and you're a retard.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Kainen

Originally posted by Arkans
FUCKING PWNED!!!!!!!!!!111111111

- Arkans

Wow, for once I am in full agreement with Arkans

Comfort in being wrong for you.

Darnell, making jokes about Blacks, Jews or what have you is racist. End of. Doesnt necessarily make you racist, but the likelihood of that being the case is significantly higher than if you didnt make racist jokes.

American History isnt something that is taught in British schools, the same as British history isnt something that is taught in American Schools. Unless you want to study it later in life, it tends to be something that is learned through researching an area of interest, or becoming involved in a discussion about it and learning things from that.

I had no idea what the differences were between the unionists and the confederates and, until this discussion hadnt been particularly interested in it. This discussion, however, did raise an interest in it.

The discussion had been fairly informative until you piped up, and from what I can see the first insult posted in the thread would be
Someone really needs to slap whatever liquor company is responsible for your exsistance. I'm willing to bet it was Wild Turkey

Attributed to you, I believe.

Now, I am prepared to accept that I am <whatever you wish to call me> for not knowing the ins and outs of US history, provided you can (without doing a google search) tell me about bonfire night, or the significance of John Lilburne on British history.

And Kainen, the thread is about freedom of speech. That applies to more places than the US. The one example that was given was from the US for sure, there are millions of much better and much clearer examples of offensive speech or statements versus freedom of speech. Seems it is you that missed the point :)

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by Hulkein
You know Mississippi didn't equal their pre-civil war economic output until 1955? Mebbe you're right, but what's that got to do with it? Bet it took Germany a while after War II too. The South were fucking traitors and that's that and if they got a whupping for it, it's their problem not ours.


I know of a custom in the UK where every november 5th, people get dressed in white robes and carry burning crosses up the street to much acclaim, not to celebrate racism, but to commemorate 17 martyrs that were burned at the stake by the Catholics.
Hang on, ain't Guy Fawkes day about celebrating that they burned the suckers? They were traitors and got the chop and it was the Catholics who bought the farm, not the ones doing the weenie roast.

Chica, you're a Brit, tell me I'm wrong.

[Fallen]

the same as British history isnt something that is taught in American Schools. >>>

Odd, I remember AP Euro History quite well. My Highschool must have simply been on crack.

[Kainen]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Kainen

Originally posted by Arkans
FUCKING PWNED!!!!!!!!!!111111111

- Arkans

Wow, for once I am in full agreement with Arkans

Comfort in being wrong for you.

Darnell, making jokes about Blacks, Jews or what have you is racist. End of. Doesnt necessarily make you racist, but the likelihood of that being the case is significantly higher than if you didnt make racist jokes.

American History isnt something that is taught in British schools, the same as British history isnt something that is taught in American Schools. Unless you want to study it later in life, it tends to be something that is learned through researching an area of interest, or becoming involved in a discussion about it and learning things from that.

I had no idea what the differences were between the unionists and the confederates and, until this discussion hadnt been particularly interested in it. This discussion, however, did raise an interest in it.

The discussion had been fairly informative until you piped up, and from what I can see the first insult posted in the thread would be
Someone really needs to slap whatever liquor company is responsible for your exsistance. I'm willing to bet it was Wild Turkey

Attributed to you, I believe.

Now, I am prepared to accept that I am <whatever you wish to call me> for not knowing the ins and outs of US history, provided you can (without doing a google search) tell me about bonfire night, or the significance of John Lilburne on British history.

And Kainen, the thread is about freedom of speech. That applies to more places than the US. The one example that was given was from the US for sure, there are millions of much better and much clearer examples of offensive speech or statements versus freedom of speech. Seems it is you that missed the point :)

Wrong.. the original post was indeed about a free speech issue in Lexington Kentucky, which, I do believe, IS in the US. AND for the most part.. the responses were REGARDING free speech in the US. I am aware that other places in the world have free speech.. unlike you I don't pride myself on not knowing or giving a fuck about the histories of other countries.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Kainen

Wrong.. the original post was indeed about a free speech issue in Lexington Kentucky, which, I do believe, IS in the US.

Well you have a good imagination...because the thread is about free speech, NOT free speech in the US. The example given was from the US (understandable when most of the posters here are from the US, however, please dont assume that all your fellow Americans are as ego-centric as you).

To someone outside of the US, it is not obvious why that is offensive. Because of that lack of knowledge of this particular subject, it doesnt mean one is precluded from participating in the thread.


AND for the most part.. the responses were REGARDING free speech in the US.

In that respect, we are in agreement.


I am aware that other places in the world have free speech.. unlike you I don't pride myself on not knowing or giving a fuck about the histories of other countries.

You are seriously looking for a fight here, right?
Where in the posts I have made in this thread, did I intimate that I dont give a fuck about the history of other countries? AFAIK, I was taking an interest in the history of your country, by asking how a particular flag could cause offence. Until you know as much about the history of my and every other country, dont expect me and others to know the banal details of the history of yours. You know, it's people like you, with responses like yours, that give people from outside the US, the impression that you are a bunch of arrogant, egocentric wankers. Now that may be unfair on the part of the majority of people in the US, but fucking hell, it pretty much sums you up.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Nieninque
the same as British history isnt something that is taught in American Schools.I should tell my classmates who took European History to go get their money back, then. (Note: I'm 88% sure that Fallen went to a different high school than me.)
Until you know as much about the history of my and every other country, dont expect me and others to know the banal details of the history of yours.I know what the War of the Roses is. Your turn. :)

[Nieninque]

I know what the American revolution was about

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Galleazzo

Hang on, ain't Guy Fawkes day about celebrating that they burned the suckers? They were traitors and got the chop and it was the Catholics who bought the farm, not the ones doing the weenie roast.

Chica, you're a Brit, tell me I'm wrong.

Guy Fawkes night is a celebration of the discovery of a plot to blow up the houses of parliament. There is some dispute as to whether it was an actual plot or a set up, but 7 Catholic men were executed for treason as a result. Interestingly, none were burned. Guy Fawkes was pretty much the fall guy of the whole thing, given that he didnt have a major role in the plot.

The attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament took place in 1604 during the reign of King James I. Prior to him becoming king, the House of Tudor ruled, the various members of which flip-flopped between Catholicism and Protestantism.

Queen Mary was a staunch Catholic and demanded the torture of people who worshipped the Protestant faith, a favourite of hers was burning them at the stake. Many pretestants refused to quiesse to her tortures and take up the Catholic faith and instead were burned alive, becoming protestant martyrs. These people are commemorated on Bonfire Night

[DeV]

If the large number of extremist groups including the KKK didn't sport the Civil War Confederate flag like it was a clear representation of the groups own views there wouldn't be as much controversy surrounding it's use by regular folk.

[Nieninque]

So its a case of racist groups adopting the symbol and then the symbol becoming synonymous with racism, rather than the flag existing as a symbol of racism.

I think Drew mentioned the swastica being a symbol of the navajo indians, but it was also used by many other cultures in various ways before the Nazis adopted it.

http://www.wcha.org/catalogs/old-town/designs/ud-25-ic/swastika.html

[DeV]

Originally posted by Nieninque
So its a case of racist groups adopting the symbol and then the symbol becoming synonymous with racism, rather than the flag existing as a symbol of racism.
Yep.

It is too bad in a way. For most who know US history the flag is a representation of those states who wanted independence from the Union as well as less government influence and more self governing power. Whites were also not the only race to fight for the side of the Confederacy and are not the only ones to display the confederate flag. The war was about taxes and became something much bigger than either side imagined.

I think alot of the missconceptions surrounding the flag were brought on by hate groups as well as missinformation from both sides about what it truly represents to those that lost family members who faught for the confederacy. Not to mention the other regular folk who do display the flag as a symbol of hate.

[Methais]

<<Well you have a good imagination...because the thread is about free speech, NOT free speech in the US. >>

Since the majority of posters here are Americans, from now on just assume we're talking about the United States unless stated otherwise.

[Nieninque]

Nice Idea, but no. I wont be pandering to your misconceptions that nothing exists outside the borders of America

:fu:

[Darnell]

The only thing worse then actual racism, is percieving racism when it doesn't exsist...but then again, I do hate all colored people. WHITE POWER

D
"Massa says joo gon git it!"

[Edited on 12-23-2004 by Darnell]

[Methais]

<<Nice Idea, but no. I wont be pandering to your misconceptions that nothing exists outside the borders of America >>

That's your choice to be stupid then.

[Jolena]

Originally posted by Nieninque
Dont think that everyone around the world gives a flying fuck about your ten minute US history.

I know fuck all about the US civil war. Why would I?

Odd..I thought you were saying RIGHT there that you don't give a flying fuck about US history. :shrug: Must be just me and my perceptions. Damned Americans.

[Jolena]

Originally posted by Darnell
The only thing worse then actual racism, is percieving racism when it doesn't exsist...but then again, I do hate all colored people. WHITE POWER

D
"Massa says joo gon git it!"

[Edited on 12-23-2004 by Darnell]

Not having any prior knowledge of any conflicts between Darnell and Nien I'm going to ask this in all honesty..are you serious Darnell about that last statement? Or is it meant in jest.

[Darnell]

Not having any prior knowledge of any conflicts between Darnell and Nien I'm going to ask this in all honesty..are you serious Darnell about that last statement? Or is it meant in jest.

No, I'm not serious. roflmao. I don't hate my colored brothers and sisters....and I mean brothers and sisters literally.

D
"Down with Arkans!!"

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
Mebbe you're right, but what's that got to do with it? Bet it took Germany a while after War II too. The South were fucking traitors and that's that and if they got a whupping for it, it's their problem not ours.

Oh, I wasn't saying it as some sort of defense for slavery, I just read that and I was really surprised at how hard they were hit economically.

On topic, there is a Sheryl Crow video where she has Confederate Flag pants on, I didn't hear an uproar about that, and I know she isn't racist.

Give me a break, it symbolizes a lot more then racism, it symbolizes a lot of good things to a lot of people.


Originally posted by Darnell
The only thing worse then actual racism, is percieving racism when it doesn't exsist


True.

Well, I dunno if it's worse, but it is annoying.

[Edited on 12-24-2004 by Hulkein]

[Methais]

<<Not having any prior knowledge of any conflicts between Darnell and Nien I'm going to ask this in all honesty..are you serious Darnell about that last statement? Or is it meant in jest. >>

This should answer your question (courtesy of Arkans):

[Darnell]

Originally posted by Darnell
The only thing worse then actual racism, is percieving racism when it doesn't exsist


True.

Well, I dunno if it's worse, but it is annoying.

[Edited on 12-24-2004 by Hulkein] [/quote]

It's worse because it cheapens actual racial issues when they arise.

D

[Tsa`ah]

First: Free speech should be protected at all times. Without it we lose the voice of dissent and are only able to hear what an empowered minority wish us to hear.

Second: I don't think this is an issue of free speech. This is an issue of some teen wanting attention. She wanted attention with the dress and she got it. Now she wants paid for that attention. Poor taste should never be a winning argument in a court of law.

I've seen a good many student protests of the most frivolous things.

Guys dressing in skirts to protest a 'No shorts" rule.

Eating the most obnoxious and gas producing foods to protest a closed campus.

Wearing printed Ts, clothes inside out, boys wearing girl's hair band thingies, and dirty clothes in order to protest certain dress codes.

Parking on the track and sports fields to protest permit parking.

Attention getters? Sure, HS is loaded with attention getting antics.

The real questions here are did she make the dress for the reasons she claims? Is she inbred? Is she just stupid? Or is she really ignorant of social tolerances at her own school?

I just don't buy, for a penny or for free.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Attention getters? Sure, HS is loaded with attention getting antics.

The real questions here are did she make the dress for the reasons she claims? Is she inbred? Is she just stupid? Or is she really ignorant of social tolerances at her own school?

I just don't buy, for a penny or for free. Bingo. I was discussing this with my friend and this was the first thing that came to mind besides actually discussing the flag itself. Conclusion: Attention whore.

[Nieninque]

So when does someone's right to freedom of speech become spreading hate? Or should there be such a thing?

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Nieninque
So when does someone's right to freedom of speech become spreading hate? Or should there be such a thing?

One's freedom to speech is (should) be guaranteed up until the point where that freedom infringes upon another person's freedom to speech ... or to live.

Take a look at some of the televangelist broadcasts in the states. Some of these morons preach some pretty scary stuff. They are free to continue up until the point of promoting violence against another group.

That's the line really; violence and other illegal activity.

With this dress; well that just crossed the line into absurdity. Sure she had the right to wear it; I just don't think she had the right to wear it to her prom. A confederate flag, or any flag, should not be considered as formal attire ... ever.

[Satira]

roflmao at "Froot loom"

[Methais]

<<A confederate flag, or any flag, should not be considered as formal attire ... ever. >>

That's a good point, and I agree that it doesn't exactly fall into the "formal attire" category. However, from what I gathered from the news article, the school's beef with the dress didn't seem to be over whether it was formal or informal.

[Edited on 12-24-2004 by Methais]

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Methais
<<A confederate flag, or any flag, should not be considered as formal attire ... ever. >>

That's a good point, and I agree that it doesn't exactly fall into the "formal attire" category. However, from what I gathered from the news article, the school's beef with the dress didn't seem to be over whether it was formal or informal.


Should she win her case it will be the school's fault for being PC idiots and not just telling her that the dress sucked and she couldn't ruin the experience of the normal people.

The Aryan Nation uses the American flag too; I guess all people who use the American flag are racists as wello.

Some people use it as a symbol of racism, others use it to show pride, what you *think* it represents is not always what it means. Personally I am a yank, so I don't have a desire to wave the "Rebel" flag. If somebody wants to wear a dress or a shirt that has the flag on it I don't see an issue with that at all.

hat right do you or anyone else have to decide what others wish to say or do? NONE.

[Tsa`ah]

If I'm out in public, who cares.

If you are attending a formal event sponsored by an educational institution?

No, you don't have the right. Wear a pin.

[HarmNone]

I imagine, the school was afraid that her attire would disrupt the prom, and ruin the evening for the other attendees. I can imagine fights breaking out, people yelling at each other, and all kinds of hooplah.

It's supposed to be a special night for everyone, not for just one young girl with a cause.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
boys wearing girl's hair band thingiesDon't judge me!!!!!!1

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
boys wearing girl's hair band thingiesDon't judge me!!!!!!1

We did the stupid shit listed to protest the stupid double standard dress code.

[Scott]

<<<hat right do you or anyone else have to decide what others wish to say or do? NONE. >>>

People who set up the event. I don't have a right to say people can't wear a "support Charles Manson" t-shirt , but I do have the right to tell them they can't wear it in MY house. The school set up the event, and they have every right to make a decision like this.

You can be 18, but you can't bring cigerettes to school. It's legal to have those cigerettes at that age, but it doesn't mean you are allowed to bring them to school. The school had every right to say she can't wear it to a prom. They sponsered and set up the event, they have the right to refuse someone with reason.

[DeV]

Schools also had dress codes the last time I checked. Not sure if that applies to proms or not but the school does have the right to set the rules and enforce them.