Aiming with thrown weapons

[Peppwyn]

At what point can you reliably start aiming with thrown weapons?

1x CM?
1x CM / X Ambush?
2x CM?

[gilchristr]

There was an lnet discussion by some hurlers, Brute in particular, who were adamant that the GSWIKI was out of date, and it is now perception that determines aiming from the open with hurling (just like ranged weapons). The seemed so sure that I would probably have to do testing, if I were doing hurling, and perhaps burn a fixskill

[Peppwyn]

Please keep the forum posted on your findings if someone goes and does this.

[Whirlin]

There was an lnet discussion by some hurlers, Brute in particular, who were adamant that the GSWIKI was out of date, and it is now perception that determines aiming from the open with hurling (just like ranged weapons). The seemed so sure that I would probably have to do testing, if I were doing hurling, and perhaps burn a fixskill
Shit like that bothers me... Ever since Simu took over the wiki, having an active GS account gives you the ability to update the wiki, so there's no reason the information should be out of date. There's a post from 2009 that contradicts Brute's comments. If it's been changed, note the new post from the officials, and make the updates... it's not that hard.

[Peppwyn]

I think the problem is how do you know it's been changed? There is a 'feeling' it's different, but you're never going to get a proper 'this is how it really works' from GMs. I asked Wyrom, and he said he thinks it works just like melee ambush, but encourages investigation. And it kind of sucks that there is a penalty if you test something and are wrong (ie. TPs you didn't need to spend for some skill you don't need to train in)

[Aluvius]

I've been leveling up a hurling paladin over the last few months. My experiences indicate that the wiki is correct.

At level 25 I couldn't hit my aimed targets and frequently failed to find an opening with .5x perception and 0x ambush, once I fixskilled to 1x ambush and .5x perception I never saw another failed opening and was hitting my aimed targets with normal frequency. Once I hit 30 ranks of ambush I bumped perception up to 1x with no perceptible change in accuracy.

Incidentally, I was also 1x CM but of course I have 1611 running which gives about .75x phantom CM ranks. The phantom ranks were definitely contributing to accuracy as well. I wasn't sure if that would be the case.

This mirrored my experience with my warrior. At 2x CM and 24 ranks of ambush I was able to start hitting aimed targets with hurled attacks quite well, however bumping up to 30 ranks made a noticeable improvement. This was again around level 25.

[Peppwyn]

Appreciate the findings, Aluvius.

[Ososis]

Can this not be done on the test server,

[Peppwyn]

I asked Wyrom and he said the test server is not available for players at this time.

[Ososis]

I asked Wyrom and he said the test server is not available for players at this time.

Oh shit, guess I have not kept up on things. That sucks, test server is/was awedome

[Aluvius]

Its playas only at the moment.

[Tyronebiggums]

They really need to overhaul the hurling system, the potential is there....that being said, someone offer me something good for my discus bandolier!

[Peppwyn]

Well, I used my fixskill and went 1x CM, 1x Ambush and 1x Perception ... i can hit stuff now. Previously I was 1x CM and 1x Perception and couldn't hit the side of a barn.

[Archigeek]

Been hurling a long, long time, I am pretty sure aiming with hurling is the same as melee, or very close. You'll want perception anyway though, as it does aid AS for hurling, up to 2x.

[gilchristr]

"You'll want perception anyway though, as it does aid AS for hurling, up to 2x.You'll want perception anyway though, as it does aid AS for hurling, up to 2x."

Right. But the question is whether or not you need ambush skill with hurling with an open hurling build. Under the "brute et. al" theory, its a total waste to train in ambush for an open hurling. As per the gswiki, its critical to train in ambush.

Waste vs. critical for many ranks in an expensive skill is a pretty big difference!

[Aganii]

I didnt hear the conversation or the testing methods but what level is Brute? If capped it wont take much ambush to max open aiming of he is already 2x CM which may be causing some confusion. Its the lower levels where you really have to invest in ambush where you can see its impact.

[Peppwyn]

By simply increasing my ambush training from 0x to 1x, i see a significant improvement in aiming. For what it is worth, I am only level 20.

[Helsfeld]

I was chatting as brute at the time.... part of the argument was ambush factored into the equation of the Total Thrown AS... which is does not at all like bows.

As for cap I'm 14 mil post cap... I don't train in ambush at all perception and hurling is maxed I might miss once out of 10 throws if that.


basically the main difference is these guys are trying to aim at 20-35 when you can't really hit anything anyway at that age.... At cap I can't imagine ambush making much of a difference.

[Peppwyn]

I would agree with that statement. I think if you 2x CM, you're probably fine not having any ambush training. If you're looking to aim around level 25, you're going to want to 1x ambush.

[Archigeek]

"You'll want perception anyway though, as it does aid AS for hurling, up to 2x.You'll want perception anyway though, as it does aid AS for hurling, up to 2x."

Right. But the question is whether or not you need ambush skill with hurling with an open hurling build. Under the "brute et. al" theory, its a total waste to train in ambush for an open hurling. As per the gswiki, its critical to train in ambush.

Waste vs. critical for many ranks in an expensive skill is a pretty big difference!

You selectively left out this part, which has the answer to your question:


Been hurling a long, long time, I am pretty sure aiming with hurling is the same as melee, or very close.

Also, from the wiki:


The Ambush and Combat Maneuvers skills factor into aimed hurled attacks from the open. Ambush skill alone is taken into account when aiming from hiding ( See post).

There is nothing in the wiki that says ambush training is critical for open aiming. Quite the opposite. Aiming hurling, as best as anyone can tell, uses the same formula or very close to the same formula as melee combat, which is how it's described on the wiki.

[gilchristr]

"Been hurling a long, long time, I am pretty sure aiming with hurling is the same as melee, or very close."

Thank you Archigeek.