Bush, Books, and You.

[Tsa`ah]

Well our illustrious commander in chief really does think he knows what's best for our country.

Let's drag our constitution through the mud a bit more and set that bitch on fire.

If the UK's Guardian is anything of a credible source, Dubya and Gerald Allen (Alabama state legislature R) wants to push a bill through Congress that will prevent educational institutions from even touching a book that has anything but hetero undertones.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features/story/0,11710,1369643,00.html?gusrc=rss/

[Eiderfleur]

OMFG!!!!!

Jesus H Christ on a fucking crutch!!!


What is he gonna do next? Bring back slavery?


FUCK ME What a fucking dickhead. All of those who voted for him, hope you realise what a HUGE mistake you made.

That's pretty sad.

[Hulkein]

OH NOEZ

[Back]

Fascist much?

[Ilvane]

Surprising, nah.

-A

[Snapp]

What a fucking crock of shit.

Good. I do not want institutions teaching my kids values that may or may not be the ones I hold. Sorry.

- Arkans

[Ilvane]

So if you don't believe in God, for example..should God be force fed to your children?

Hm, think about that one?

-A

No, God should not be force fed to anybody.

- Arkans

[Back]

In America, you can hate, but you can’t love.

[Artha]

What is he gonna do next? Bring back slavery?

I sure hope so.

[Mistomeer]

So, I'm wondering if this includes Greek mythology.
Will all Latin classes be banned?

I SO call the first slaves.

- Arkans

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Arkans
Good. I do not want institutions teaching my kids values that may or may not be the ones I hold. Sorry.

- Arkans

This covers the gambit Arkans. There are a great deal of books out there that are considered classics that contain inuendo and brief glimpses.

The bible for one.

Woah, if we are talking about learning textbooks, I agree. If we are talking LITERATURE, that is a horse of a different color.

- Arkans

[Pallon]

Is our children learning?

[Back]

We are already slaves.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Eiderfleur
FUCK ME What a fucking dickhead. All of those who voted for him, hope you realise what a HUGE mistake you made. Yes, this Allen character is a few moves shy of a two-step. I don't get why Bush is ripped because he meets with the guy. I don't recall FDR getting blamed for the Soviet Union when he met with the Russians. :shrug: Read past the headlines, folks, this entire article is about some Alabamian named Allen.
The internet is even better than the Bible when it comes to spreading unverifiable, unrefutable stories. At least the article isn't biased. :)

[Nakiro]

You know, you can always tell your children about sexuality (heterosexual and homosexual) yourself. What a novel concept?

[Back]

Exactly. This is the man who ran under the “less government” bill.

[Ravenstorm]

Next we can ban all mention of interracial marriage and other religions and evolution... You get what you vote for. And in a similar vein:

Separation of church and state? (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/news/epaper/2004/12/16/a21a_webster_1216.html)

Raven

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Well our illustrious commander in chief really does think he knows what's best for our country.

Let's drag our constitution through the mud a bit more and set that bitch on fire.

If the UK's Guardian is anything of a credible source, Dubya and Gerald Allen (Alabama state legislature R) wants to push a bill through Congress that will prevent educational institutions from even touching a book that has anything but hetero undertones.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features/story/0,11710,1369643,00.html?gusrc=rss/

Let me post the only credible thing you actually posted:

"If the UK's Guardian is anything of a credible source"

I suppose being ignorant on the way our government works can also help.

LET'S FUCKING BLAME GEORGE BUSH! IT'S HIS FAULT!

:rolleyes:

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

IT"S A CONSPIRACY!

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Ilvane
So if you don't believe in God, for example..should God be force fed to your children?

Hm, think about that one?

-A

It isn't, in public schools.

[Mini-Spir]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by Ilvane
So if you don't believe in God, for example..should God be force fed to your children?

Hm, think about that one?

-A

It isn't, in public schools.

Its not?

I pledge allegience to the flag of the united states of america, for which is stands, one nation, UNDER GOD

[Hulkein]

I'd say that is more of an anomoly. It's the Pledge that everyone in the country knows....

Not to mention kids aren't forced to say it because of the God part.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

"If the UK's Guardian is anything of a credible source"

I suppose being ignorant on the way our government works can also help.

LET'S FUCKING BLAME GEORGE BUSH! IT'S HIS FAULT!

:rolleyes:

Never assume that good ol'American ignorance can be universally translated to sources outside of our borders.

As I said, and you quoted, if the Guardian is a credible news outlet. I don't know if it's the Brit equivalent of the Enquirer or not.

However, similar articles have appeared in Alabama papers.

The man claims to be part of the Bush "base" and carrying out what the conservative right wants done.

So tell me, why is Bush not at fault? If this were libel, would Bush not speak up and say he does not wish this to happen?

No, I think Bush and his being our current CIC is to blame and I doubt it stops here.

The line for schwaztikas is forming it seems.

[Hulkein]

I'm pretty sure it's a credible source, although it is incredibly biased.

This guy could be doing his own thing in his own little district for his own local political gain. I doubt that Bush is talking to this guy much [at all] about the slow and steady censor of books with homosexual undertones that are American Classics.

[Keller]

Originally posted by Arkans
Good. I do not want institutions teaching my kids values that may or may not be the ones I hold. Sorry.

- Arkans

We're buds and all. I respect you, usually, but that was one ig'nant comment. I believe you were infering someone was teaching a pro-homosexual value. That is not the case. If there is a value being pushed it's in the pro-hetero camp. I think you need to get the government the FUCK out of the education system. Take a peek at France, where you have muslim children attending Catholic schools because even the Catholics understand what rights are.

[Keller]

On a side note: These are the same simple minded people that wish public schools didn't have to teach evolution. ::assumes Rhett's accent:: "Well ya see, God made man and then took his rib and made woman. Yup, that sounds about right. Can you pass me a bur (beer)?"
Simple people like things to be black and white. Well, mostly white.

We're buds and all. I respect you, usually, but that was one ig'nant comment. I believe you were infering someone was teaching a pro-homosexual value. That is not the case. If there is a value being pushed it's in the pro-hetero camp. I think you need to get the government the FUCK out of the education system. Take a peek at France, where you have muslim children attending Catholic schools because even the Catholics understand what rights are.


I see nothing wrong with teaching the "main stream" to children. There is absolutely no reason why the values of such a minority should be drilled into anybody's head. I agree that it should be taught that it exists, sure, but if they want more indept knowledge, that should rest at home. It is not the school's place to do this.

Also, if a Catholic school does not want to admit Muslim children, I more than support them. They are private and it is their right. I would not expect Muslim schools to accept Catholics either. Simple as that.

Go with the mainstream as far as teaching is concerned. If parents want children to learn other values they can just as easily teach them at home, send them to specialized schools, or go to other orginizations that share their agenda.

I do not care if my children know that homosexuality exists, but to say that it is "good" or "natural" for them? I'm not quite sure about that.

- Arkans

[Mini-Spir]

Yeah Arkans you're a fucking retard and you're half the problem that america has today.

[Keller]

Originally posted by Arkans
[quote]
I see nothing wrong with teaching the "main stream" to children. There is absolutely no reason why the values of such a minority should be drilled into anybody's head. I agree that it should be taught that they exist, sure, but if they want more indept knowledge, that should rest at home. It is not the school's place to do this.

Go with the mainstream as far as teaching is concerned. If parents want children to learn other values they can just as easily teach them at home, send them to specialized schools, or go to other orginizations that share their agenda.

I do not care if my children know that blacks exist, but to say that they are "good" or "natural"? I'm not quite sure about that.

- Arkans

That comment was taken circa 1842. In those days the fire and brimstone Baptists preached that black people had the curse of Ham. Now-a-days those same people preach about the woes of unrepentant homosexuality. STOP LISTENING.

[Jack]

Why not post your Bush bashing on a forum designed for it? I'm sure everyone there will love you for it.

www.democraticunderground.com

[Sean]

Because its kinda boring trying to hold convo with people who do nothing but agree with you?

[Pallon]

I have a hard time believing that Bush, champion of freedom of speech and paragon of tolerance for alternate lifestyles, would have met with this guy on five occassions for any purpose other than to firmly rein in his reactionary ideas.

[Edited on 12-19-2004 by Pallon]

[Miss X]

The Guardian is a credible source, in fact it's the only paper worth reading. I'm pretty sure they are anti-Bush though because The Guardian is probably the most left wing paper over here(excluding the socialist worker!), which is why I read it.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Miss X
The Guardian is a credible source, in fact it's the only paper worth reading. I'm pretty sure they are anti-Bush though because The Guardian is probably the most left wing paper over here(excluding the socialist worker!), which is why I read it.

You've contradicted yourself darling.. if it IS CLEARLY BIAS.. then it certainly is NOT a credible source. Anyone can twist the news to favor their political agenda.. the real credible sources will simply report the news in a credible manner. Being bias makes you uncredible. Please see Fox News and CBS News for prime examples.

[Miss X]

It's as credible as anything in the media can be. Where humans are involved there will always be an element of bias because none of us can ever prove we are 100% objective.

[Jack]

If the Guardian can be considered a credible source of news, then surely the Drudge Report is credible.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Miss X
It's as credible as anything in the media can be. Where humans are involved there will always be an element of bias because none of us can ever prove we are 100% objective.

Untrue. The Guardian is VERY bias.. which clearly makes it a non-credible news source. If they are reporting things like "Man dies in fire" or "NASA launches a rocket" then they probably can't fuck that up too much.. but anything political from that paper would be considered half truth and half spin.

[Parkbandit]

And besides.. it's British.

:P

[Sean]

When have you ever read a policial article that didn't have a bias or spin to it?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Tijay
When have you ever read a policial article that didn't have a bias or spin to it?

'George Bush signed into law today a bill that brings about sweeping changes to our defense department'

'George Bush was forced to sign into law today that was brought about by the 9-11 commission. He had been quietly trying to derail this bill in Congress, without luck.'

[Sean]

Both of those are worded to create more effect than conveying the news.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Backlash
We are already slaves. Yep. As if reading pro-heterosexual/pro-homosexual books have any bearing on a childs sexual attraction or identity.

[Ilvane]

You know how many teenagers that are gay/lesbian commit suicide in a year? It's because people teach them that it's not normal, it's not a choice, and if you choose this, you will be an abnormal person.

Now you take out the books that even mention it..why exactly? What are they so afraid of? That a teenager that reads about it might come to understand it, or maybe become more tolerant, because they aren't afraid of what they don't know?

I'm sorry, but without some of the books they mentioned, things are pretty vanilla. Where do we draw the line? If it mentions bi-racial marriage, it's too controversial? If it has any sex in it, it's immoral? Back in the 1800's it was like that..even in into the 1960's with the bi-racial marriages..so, should be go back to that?

-A

[Edited on 12-19-2004 by Ilvane]

[Parkbandit]

I personally believe that it's up to the parents to teach their children about tolerance and sex. I don't think it needs to be a lesson plan of my 5th grade daughter.

That's me though.

[Ilvane]

I'm not talking 5th grade, PB. I'm talking middle school, teenaged kids.

Parents can't be counted on to teach tolerance, because there are some that are not tolerant. If you have a parent who is a racist, and no one at school teaches you that isn't okay to be like that, then you go through your life as a racist, is that good?

All taking those books out does is show no tolerance for differences, in any way..from homosexuality, any type of sexuality.

-A

[Tsa`ah]

I'm not talking about a course of gay 101, I'm talking about censorship and book banning.

No matter which way you cut it, banning certain types of books from educational facilities is no better than burning them.

If the topic of protection comes up in sex ed, I expect them to cover protection, from straight to gay.

What I don't want is the thinking and support of the thought that "gay" is bad, wrong, and abnormal. Doing this supports that thought and promotes conflict.

This we do not need.

[DeV]

Not only that but how then do teachers teach cultural diversity in their classrooms.

You have a teacher with a classroom full of students from very diverse backgrounds in terms of ethnicity and even sexuality and their tools for learning are being depleted because of literature our government may not agree with. That's wrong.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Ilvane
Parents can't be counted on to teach tolerance, because there are some that are not tolerant. If you have a parent who is a racist, and no one at school teaches you that isn't okay to be like that, then you go through your life as a racist, is that good? If you feel like forcing your beliefs on others, then go for it. I have to warn you, though, people get a little testy about that kind of thing sometimes. You should be ok with "tolerance is right, racism is wrong" though, most people agree with that.

[HarmNone]

Ish! Talk about Orwellian!:nutty:

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Ilvane

Parents can't be counted on to teach tolerance, because there are some that are not tolerant. If you have a parent who is a racist, and no one at school teaches you that isn't okay to be like that, then you go through your life as a racist, is that good?

-A

Its good because at least the parent has an active role in the upbringing of the child, even if it with a viewpoint that you do not agree with.

The role of the government is not to parent.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Nakiro

Originally posted by Ilvane

Parents can't be counted on to teach tolerance, because there are some that are not tolerant. If you have a parent who is a racist, and no one at school teaches you that isn't okay to be like that, then you go through your life as a racist, is that good?

-A

Its good because at least the parent has an active role in the upbringing of the child,

I think the answer to that one was "no"

Edited to add: If the parent is a thief and encourages their child to steal, is that a good thing because they are having an active role?


[Edited on 19-12-04 by Nieninque]

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Backlash
Exactly. This is the man who ran under the “less government” bill.

what are you talking about?

This is the man who ran under the I know best and will protect you and America the best

[Edaarin]

It's not run the gambit, damn it...

It's run the GAMUT. G-A-M-U-T.

Damn senility.

[Fengus]

On the one hand I agree with that tard from Alabama, the movie and music industry *are* pushing their own views and have been for some time. But this is all smoke screen, Bush likes this fellow because he will get both sides riled up over the issue of freedom, meanwhile he is robbing you blind, setting up himself and his buisness partners to rape you and your country. He someone managed to get voted in again (Cause most americans are stupid.), the abuse he is propogating against the constitution should be considered grand treason!


Also for those who don't know "teach" means to impart knowledge, "indoctrinate" is the word you are looking for which means to imbue with an opinion, point of view, or principle. Clearly I want my schools to teach, not indoctrinate. Not knowing the difference between these two means you are ignorant of the real issue that is going on with respect to public schooling.















Originally posted by Keller
Take a peek at France, where you have muslim children attending Catholic schools because even the Catholics understand what rights are.


I think you've got the wrong idea here, Catholics aren't doing that out of consideration of rights, they are doing it to convert the muslims.
This is the same problem many have with the faith-based initiative Bush put thru, it would be all well and good if the church group was helping drug addicts get off drugs, but they are doing that alongside trying to convert them. So what it boils down to is that my tax money is paying churches to convert drug addicts.

Woah, woah.. Unless the child is being severely abused, the state or any other facility should be forcing their beliefs on a child. If the parents are rascist and teach the child rascist values? So be it. If the parents are homophobes, so be it. You nor anyone else here as any right to say what values a parent can or cannot instil in a child. That is damn crossing the line. I want to teach MY children MY values, not someone elses.

- Arkans

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Tijay
When have you ever read a policial article that didn't have a bias or spin to it?

Plenty of places. AP usually has unbiased articles.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Ilvane
Parents can't be counted on to teach tolerance
-A

So parents cannot be counted on to do important things like teach their kids about sexuality but they should be responsible enough to monitor the airwaves of TV and Radio at all times to insure their kids never listen to something vulgar or offensive? :lol:

Now I don't know for sure if you have said in the past 'PARENTS SHOULD MONITOR WHAT KIDS LISTEN 2, DOWN WITH TEH FCC,' but if you have then you need to figure out where you stand on the broader issue of parenting.

No, Hulkein, the state should be there to obviously teach kids. People do not know what they really want or really what they believe. We need the state.

- Arkans

[Fengus]

Originally posted by Arkans
If the parents are rascist and teach the child rascist values? So be it. If the parents are homophobes, so be it. You nor anyone else here as any right to say what values a parent can or cannot instil in a child.

Well how about this, if your child has views much different from what the constitution and government are sworn to uphold they should be disallowed a public education. Their presence is a disruption.

[Ravenstorm]

It's funny how the people who are arguing that the state shouldn't teach values are advocating that the state pick a particular set of values to teach. Of course, they refuse to realize that's exactly what they're doing: demanding the state teach THEIR values and ONLY their values.

Raven

Why be disallowed? If someone has an opinion, we have the right to speak it. If that child becomes a disruption in the class room, then maybe seperation from said class or school might be needed, but until then, I don't see how a child is imposing values by teaching that they are correct just by questioning.

- Arkans

[Back]

The governement is supposed to SERVE the people, not rule over them. Keyword, supposed.

I agree, Backlash, but it appears as though Ilvane thinks other.

- Arkans

What's next, Thought Police?

[Keller]

Originally posted by Arkans
No, Hulkein, the state should be there to obviously teach kids. People do not know what they really want or really what they believe. We need the state.

- Arkans

You don't get it. By BANNING BOOKS, the GOVERNMENT is CONTROLING education. You have a good point, you're just not seeing it in the correct context.


As to the whole Catholic school accepting Muslims -- no doubt some people at the schools would like to convert the Muslim students, but they are at the school because they are allowed to practice their religion there. Their explicit purpose is freedom of religion. I am not denying they don't want to convert them -- most Christians have narrow religious views.

Most people of any religion have narrow religious views, Keller. Any religion in the extreme is bad and leads to Human suffering, I think we can all agree on that.

Once again, I believe the Government should, if anything, promote the main stream style of thought. There is no reason why other ways of thoughts would not be available at libraries or other centers of learning.

- Arkans

[Keller]

Originally posted by Arkans
Most people of any religion have narrow religious views, Keller. Any religion in the extreme is bad and leads to Human suffering, I think we can all agree on that.

Once again, I believe the Government should, if anything, promote the main stream style of thought. There is no reason why other ways of thoughts would not be available at libraries or other centers of learning.

- Arkans

So the government should be charged with the holy quest of indoctrinating children with the values the mainstream holds.

How fascist of you.

I see unity as something that is desperately needed in a country. This helps achieve the goal.

- Arkans

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Arkans
There is no reason why other ways of thoughts would not be available at libraries or other centers of learning.

Just as a note, that politician you're defending does not agree with you. He wants to ban them from every institution that gets any public money. Every. That includes libraries.

Raven

I don't agree with all his points then. It is far too extreme in what he wants to ban. Public libraries should be where anyone can learn about anything. No holds bars. I do think that schools should be screened for content though.

- Arkans

[Fengus]

Originally posted by Arkans
I see unity as something that is desperately needed in a country. This helps achieve the goal.
- Arkans


HAHAHA, oh you sad sad tool. There was lots of unity depicted in the novel 1984, unity of mind, body AND thought. Is that the kind of unity you are looking for?

I decidely do *not* want unity, the melting pot created a great nation, not built on unity, but built on differences and flexibility of the populace. Sameness breeds stupidity, and you don't have to walk far into some southern states and many bible belt states to see that there is plenty of stupidity to go around.

The drone like qualities of most americans doesn't bother me much, because without fail teenagers always rebel against their parent's beliefs (and this is where movies and music get their power of influence) what bothers me is the cyclic behavior I am seeing in our culture, we are on the verge of some crazy isolationist/puritan upswing that harkens back to the 1700s. Because kids are rebelling and become *more* uptight then their parents.

I sorry you want a weakened and divided Fengus, you sure you do not support Mao?

- Arkans

[Keller]

Originally posted by Arkans
I see unity as something that is desperately needed in a country. This helps achieve the goal.

- Arkans

Excuse me. Uber-fascist.

So we only teach the values that are "good" in so much as "good" is the public sentiment.

Think about what you're saying.

What is so wrong in teaching the values that the majority of Americans agree on?

- Arkans

[Keller]

Originally posted by Arkans
What is so wrong in teaching the values that the majority of Americans agree on?

- Arkans

We're stupid, falable, and generally overzealous. Historically we've found solace in a religion that teaches that the "other" (women, blacks, gays) is "bad". This is the justification of a pseudo-piety that some people need to run their everyday lives. The undeserved feeling of righteousness because at least we aren't the "other".

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Keller
Historically we've found solace in a religion that teaches that the "other" (women, blacks, gays) is "bad".No religion teaches that. Religious custom, well, that's a different story.

[Keller]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Keller
Historically we've found solace in a religion that teaches that the "other" (women, blacks, gays) is "bad".No religion teaches that. Religious custom, well, that's a different story.

Religion is the whole of its parts. But I agree with your sentiment.

Public schools should be teaching ABOUT religion, they should not be preeching religious doctrine.

Also, it is the people that run religious institutions that have this fault, not the actual religions.

- Arkans

[Hulkein]

I still doubt the involvement of Bush with this guys extreme views.

Funny thing is I had a lesbian English teacher 12th grade and we read some Tennessee Williams and I don't remember her pointing out any homosexual undertones or themes.

That may have been because a) I wasn't really paying attention, b) I went to Catholic school.

[Keller]

Originally posted by Arkans
Public schools should be teaching ABOUT religion, they should not be preeching religious doctrine.

Also, it is the people that run religious institutions that have this fault, not the actual religions.

- Arkans

Again, religion is the whole of its parts. It's kind of like how when I say I am American in France, I still get dirty looks. No matter what my political persuasion, my association with assholes makes me an "asshole" too. I'm not saying it's right, it's just life in the big city.

Also, you can't tell me that people who sit in church don't scrub themselves clean listening to laundry lists of sins other committ. It's that whole remove the log before you point out the speck message Jesus was trying to make. Too bad that hasn't stuck yet.