Minimum training requirements?

[Saber]

Since I don't get to read the official boards too much. I was wandering if anyone knows what the GM's consider the minimum required training regiment for Sorcerers in GSIV? Thanks.
:?:

[Edited on 9-10-2003 by Saber]

[StrayRogue]

.5x Shield and Weapon if going that route.
1x lore
1x both mana controls
1.5x Harness power
1.5x Arcane Symbols and Magic Item use.
2x Spell Aim.

Erm, I will check more thoroughly later.

[StrayRogue]

Oh, if you are not going the weapon/shield route, increase all magic skills to compensate.

[Dighn Darkbeam]

Will there be a lose of any hard DS if you .5 shield training as opposed to 1xing?

[StrayRogue]

Of course there will be. You are .5xing, as in losing half the DS possible if you 1xed. However, the game is balanced to expect you only to .5x. The critters will be balanced accordingly. 1x, for the cost, could be considered over-compensating.

[Dighn Darkbeam]

All squares will be 1x-2xed in thier weapon of choice, correct? Squares keep getting better and better at PvP.

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Dighn Darkbeam
All squares will be 1x-2xed in thier weapon of choice, correct? Squares keep getting better and better at PvP.


That would be because the GM's don't view PVP as a part of the game that needs ballenced. They ballence for hunting, and leveling..not how well you can kill the rogue or sorcerer behind you.

-Adredrin

[Dighn Darkbeam]

Considering roleplay is supposed to be first and roleplaying often leads to CvC, it should be.

[Trinitis]

there is a different between CvC and PvP. Big difference. I'm sure the last thing on GM's mind is making sure the duelers are fair and ballenced.

You know..I play another game online where PvP is a huge part of the game..and in an atempt to make the PvP more balleneced, they completely neutered the mage class. As it stands now, hunting is not even worth the trouble in that game now if your a mage.

-Adredrin

[Artha]

No rogue I know of can hide in less than 3 seconds. E-wave can be prepped and cast in about 1. They get some RT, and I focus implode them while they're laying on the ground.

Who wins?

[Dighn Darkbeam]

No rogue takes three seconds to use a guild skill. No sorcerer can hope to block a like age Rogues guild skill. Guild skills are going to be alot easier to get and maintain at an effective level.

Who wins? Who ever lands the first successful strike.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Artha
No rogue I know of can hide in less than 3 seconds. E-wave can be prepped and cast in about 1. They get some RT, and I focus implode them while they're laying on the ground.

Who wins?

Wait til shadow mastery. How about I use my glass amulet or invisi item?

How about I stalk into a room, stalk you, wait til you go hunting, THEN kill you? You must have thought some really dumb ass rogues.

Besides guild skills require NO prep time.

[Artha]

I'm assuming you're not some snert who would stalk me while I was hunting.

But, I hunt in guarded...while spelled up.

[StrayRogue]

Need I remind you AGAIN of my findings? I can hit you WITHOUT ambush at every level through basic AS vs DS from lvl 30. Basically, my AS is the same as your DS. Not including ambush which will drop it another...100+ points.

[Dighn Darkbeam]

I have yet to meet a like aged square who can strike me when I am standing in guarded fully spelled like leveled.

120, 430, 753 or so. More often than not I have a Statue, scroll spells and other protective measures in place. 8x Shield, 8x armor. This is GS3 mind you, not Squarestone.

Kris na Su'ta

[StrayRogue]

....Again *rolls eyes* GS4! GS4! Look at the numbers you slow minded...

GS3, you are correct. It is balanced somewhat in GS3. Not in GS4, but we'll see just how much of a hash up Warden and Melissa makes. Thankfully I am a square :D

[Dighn Darkbeam]

Look at the numbers you slow minded... >>

Easy there you piece of whacko. I admit I tend to turn a blind eye/deaf ear when someone says GS4. Im trying to pretend it wont happen and my sorcerers CvC abilities wont be raped. Oh well. Time to stay invisible from now on.

Damn you Warden, Damn your soul to hell.

[StrayRogue]

Here they are again:

Generic Dark Elf Sorcerer, 1x shield and Edged (baseline here is meant to be .5x in both these skills, also bearing in mind the Staves give even less DS than this baseline training), who is doubled in spells, maximized for DS in regards to has 430 maxed, +90 DS from CoS and has access to WoF and the +50 Airwall.

His DS at 20 with 5x equipment is...228 (or 217 in guarded)
His DS at 50 with 5x equipment is...340 (or 324 in guarded)
His DS at 100 with 5x equipment is...437 (or 537 with walls, or 412 in his guarded, hunting stance)

Generic Dark Elf Rogue, 2x shield, dodge and edged. Has limited access to basic spells up to 406 (self-cast).

His DS at 20 with 4x equipment is...264 (or 188 in offensive) Please note his AS is 221. 226 if he uses a 5x weapon like the Sorcerer. The AS is enough to hit a sorcerer in guarded.
His DS at 50 with 4x equipment is...403 (or 265 in offensive).
His DS at 100 with 4x equipment is...631 (or 390 in offensive). Please note his AS is 457, enough to easily hit a sorcerer in Guarded stance.

Please also take into consideration, my rogue, unlike my sorcerer, can block twice as well, dodge, plus has the benefit of being able to absorb any shot with his redux and ability to wear medium to heavy armor. Plus he can further reduce the rediculous difference between AS and DS with his ambush skill.

Now, these are two hardly amazingly trained characters. Imagine a warrior fully 2xed in CM, 3x in Shield, and 2x Dodge in the same situation?

Now, please, point me to the "Balance"?

[draconis nematoda]

Sorcerer with CoS and Dark Catalyst chanted for retributive strike + stupid invisible/ambushing/guild skill using attcker = stunned/prone/bleeding/possibly limbless or dead attacker.

Plus sorcerers will have demons guarding them too.

Des

[Edited on 9-18-2003 by draconis nematoda]

[Artha]

I doubt DC will be very powerful against a giantman who has 10 mana.

[Dighn Darkbeam]

Cloak of shadows only goes off (When it does go off)when the sorcerer is stunned by a weapon attack . Most rogues will only need one hit to finish the job I am afraid.

I dont know if it was in any way purposeful but the CvC between Squares and Pures was tipped from slightly in the pures favor to slightly in the squares favor.

[StrayRogue]

Slightly? Heh. Anyway, please tell me how a high lvl critter can be balanced when my rogue's offensive DS is nearing the same as the guarded sorcerer.

[draconis nematoda]

Originally posted by Artha
I doubt DC will be very powerful against a giantman who has 10 mana.

So the sorcerer only gets back 1 mana. The attacking giantman is still probably going to be dead.

Des

[draconis nematoda]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Slightly? Heh. Anyway, please tell me how a high lvl critter can be balanced when my rogue's offensive DS is nearing the same as the guarded sorcerer.

What's your rogue's TD? Try dodging a magical attack by a high level critter. DS is going to count for very little no matter what stance you're in against some magic attacks.

It's been stated in various places by those in charge that PC's will more than likely be able to be hit in any stance.

People are now going to have to actually use their brains before deciding whether to whack someone who crosses them.

Ray

[Dighn Darkbeam]

Also remember in town simply attacking or even stunning is a reportable offensive with the new justice system. You now have to think twice about webbing, Guild manuevering, stunning, that annoying ass for a day and a half.

It is true that our spells can strike a like leveled square and after a time you have an uplevel advantage. It also seems to be true with GS4 that squares can strike us with two forms of attack at level and after a time upleveled as well.

It used to be only those with magic could enjoy being able to disable a foe without serious chance of killing them. With the invention and expansion of guild skills, it is as if squares have picked up pseudo-spell circles along with retaining their main form of attack. Before gaining and keeping these skills viable involved strenous guild work, now it is a simple matter of regular training. Hence the squarestone comments from pures.

GS4 may be balanced Creature Vr Player, Player Vr Player seems to remain nowhere close.

[StrayRogue]

So as Artha postulated, rogues and squares can only hunt swinger critters, while pures can only hunt spell casting critters?

[Morstanya]

on Gs4:

I tried to do some testing of various training plans but quickly got fed up. It's all nothing but speculation until they get the critters adjusted correctly. I went from level 95 to level 70 there. To test, I fully singled shields and edged, and had good defensive stats. On my way to test in the rift, a seeker hit me of all things. On plane one, I was demolished so fast that it's obvious there's no way to test squat.

I did notice I got plenty of mana from singling harness power, so I'm not sure people are right about needing to do more than single that. Also, I've never doubled spell aiming and I implode and such just fine. I reckon it'll be much the same in Gs4. If you try that plan I saw here you'll probably never triple in spells, if that plan is even possible while getting needed things like climbing, swimming, survival, first aid, etc...

I'm still a believer in spell tripling (:duck:). I know many lost faith in that, but to me it's worth it as the most important single thing about a sorcerer is their CS. Tripling also allows you to get your minor elemental levels up to aid 425 an 430, which is quite helpful. I don't triple all the time obviously, but I do try to emphasize it in a training plan.

So far it looks like I'll be able to recreate myself fairly well, with only one real loss, and that's CM. I have a lot in Gs3 and it's handy. I will definitely not have a lot in Gs4.

Morstanya, Icewitch.

[Artha]

My plan has me trippling occasionally, which adds a few points to my Stave DS, and CS and TD.