Spell aim or Combat Maneuvers?

[Viekn]

So I decided to swing a weapon. My next question is should I go for 2x spell aiming to give myself the option of bolting to go with swinging when I want to, or go with combat maneuvers to give myself the extra AS and help defend against bandits if I decide to do those bounties. If I go with spell aiming, I'd have enough points left over to 2x First Aid and make a pretty good skinner. If I go combat maneuvers, I have to 1x First Aid. The being able to skin well or not isn't a deal breaker though. If it ends up just being a much better option to train 1x CM, I don't mind not being able to really skin well.

Thoughts?

[Taernath]

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder319/500x/74061319.jpg

Is this for a new character, a fixskills, or at cap?

[Viekn]

Is this for a new character, a fixskills, or at cap?

Oh, yeah, sorry. Context would be good. This is for fixskilling a level 22 giantman cleric. He was sword/board. I tried out CS only and decided I didn't like it. I'm respecing him to be THW.

[Taernath]

Oh, yeah, sorry. Context would be good. This is for fixskilling a level 22 giantman cleric. He was sword/board. I tried out CS only and decided I didn't like it. I'm respecing him to be THW.

I'm a big fan of spell aim, particularly at that level. You can take apart herds of skeletal ice trolls with a couple casts of 111.

My mid-40's cleric used to be sword and board back in GSIII but I recently dusted him off, made him a pure, and he does fairly well with a mix of CS and bolts. I'm not sure how the melee situation is now, though.

[Geijon Khyree]

Anything a cleric can cast at that point is beast so spell aim to within hitting everything you hunt is wise, but mix in 10-12 CM for the easy swing boost if you have points in pairs.

[Viekn]

You can take apart herds of skeletal ice trolls with a couple casts of 111.
Yeah, I'm a big fan of the splash effect of ball spells, so that's cool.


My mid-40's cleric used to be sword and board... ...I'm not sure how the melee situation is now, though.
I've been told mid-40's is where a switch to pure might be in order, but as my other main is a pure wizard, I'll definitely be swinging for as long as I can just to keep things interesting.


Anything a cleric can cast at that point is beast so spell aim to within hitting everything you hunt is wise, but mix in 10-12 CM for the easy swing boost if you have points in pairs.

Will do, thanks. Also, I decided I like the option of hunting what I want and not necessarily being focused on undead. Currently he's aligned to be a smite cleric. I obviously won't be using 302 much because I'll only be 1x cleric spells going forward. But is it worth using an intercession gem if I'd rather him use bane or will only being 1x in Cleric spells make 302 pretty useless to me?

[Soulance]

Will do, thanks. Also, I decided I like the option of hunting what I want and not necessarily being focused on undead. Currently he's aligned to be a smite cleric. I obviously won't be using 302 much because I'll only be 1x cleric spells going forward. But is it worth using an intercession gem if I'd rather him use bane or will only being 1x in Cleric spells make 302 pretty useless to me?
I don't know the math specifically but my guess would be that you'd struggle a bit with beating out the DS on the CS if you only 1x Cleric. You can pick and choose what you hunt to an extent...some critters will give you up to a +25, but as you level that can be a narrow selection as others youre lucky to find a +2.

Plus, there are some fun, nasty Cleric spells as you get older. Combine them with spirit spells and you are OP!

I did Smite up to around 50 or 60 and it seemed to fall off on the fun list. I wouldn't change that choice, but I would suggest switching to Bane at that point and moving forward. By then, you have enough mana where you can afford the double mana penalty should you want to kill some undead critters.

[Winter]

Bolt AD is very high on low level Clerics compared to the other 3 pures, if you're in Voln you'll be able to uphunt undead by ALOT during those levels if you can get the mana/wands. In terms of raw AD I think wizards don't catch up until they're in their 60s.

edit- Forgot to add Bolt AD from benediction doesn't cap at level so you can overtrain cleric spells if you have the points, not sure if that's an intentional mechanic or an oversight.

[Erous]

edit- Forgot to add Bolt AD from benediction doesn't cap at level so you can overtrain cleric spells if you have the points, not sure if that's an intentional mechanic or an oversight.

Your training points are also viable to +21 cleric and double down on Spell Aim, with the trade off being less runestave defense. This makes for a pretty beastly hunter, all with fire spirit, holy bolt AND your mana saving 302.

[Leafiara]

I've been told mid-40's is where a switch to pure might be in order, but as my other main is a pure wizard, I'll definitely be swinging for as long as I can just to keep things interesting.Depends where you hunt, I guess, but mid-40s were amazing for me even as a brawling half-elf cleric, never mind the havoc a THW giant cleric could wreak. Honestly, if you're west of the DragonSpine, you've got a pretty easy ride up to level 60 IMO with zombies, night hounds, tree spirits, lesser stone gargoyles (if CM trained only), moaning spirits, arctic manticores, elder tree spirits, skeletal ice trolls, skeletal giants, rotting corpses, rotting farmhands, ghostly pookas, cold guardians, spectral woodsmen, skeletal warhorses, shadow mares, shadow steeds, storm giants, stone gargoyles, spectral miners, skeletal lords, roa'ters, phantasmas, night mares, lesser vruul, dybbuks, waerns, eidolons kind of (you'll have a tough time hitting them, but they'll have a near-impossible time hitting you), massive black boars, winged vipers, and probably other things I'm forgetting.

And after that point you've still got Sheruvian harbingers and massive troll kings, then Ilvari sprites and Ilvari pixies, then minotaurs. All of those are pretty easy for swinging clerics. Basically, just know that Web, Bind, Prayer of Holding, and Censure are your friends as a swinging cleric.


Anyway, for spell aiming vs. combat maneuvers, I'd say go for spell aiming first and take combat maneuvers when you hit thresholds where you can get new ranks of maneuvers. 18/12 TPs gets you 4 bolt AS while 20/12 gets you 1 melee AS, so it's mostly up to the maneuvers to make up the difference.

[Viekn]

Depends where you hunt, I guess, but mid-40s were amazing for me even as a brawling half-elf cleric, never mind the havoc a THW giant cleric could wreak. Honestly, if you're west of the DragonSpine, you've got a pretty easy ride up to level 60 IMO with zombies, night hounds, tree spirits, lesser stone gargoyles (if CM trained only), moaning spirits, arctic manticores, elder tree spirits, skeletal ice trolls, skeletal giants, rotting corpses, rotting farmhands, ghostly pookas, cold guardians, spectral woodsmen, skeletal warhorses, shadow mares, shadow steeds, storm giants, stone gargoyles, spectral miners, skeletal lords, roa'ters, phantasmas, night mares, lesser vruul, dybbuks, waerns, eidolons kind of (you'll have a tough time hitting them, but they'll have a near-impossible time hitting you), massive black boars, winged vipers, and probably other things I'm forgetting.

And after that point you've still got Sheruvian harbingers and massive troll kings, then Ilvari sprites and Ilvari pixies, then minotaurs. All of those are pretty easy for swinging clerics. Basically, just know that Web, Bind, Prayer of Holding, and Censure are your friends as a swinging cleric.


Anyway, for spell aiming vs. combat maneuvers, I'd say go for spell aiming first and take combat maneuvers when you hit thresholds where you can get new ranks of maneuvers. 18/12 TPs gets you 4 bolt AS while 20/12 gets you 1 melee AS, so it's mostly up to the maneuvers to make up the difference.

Thanks Leafiara, that's a big help. And thanks everyone else too for that input. I've gone ahead and respeced for spell aim and thw. My question now is do I go ahead and do Voln or COL? For the shear fact alone that I don't typically like being cornered in to hunting undead if I don't want to, I'd think COL would be the way to go, but is there something I'm missing or not thinking about when considering that?

[Taernath]

Thanks Leafiara, that's a big help. And thanks everyone else too for that input. I've gone ahead and respeced for spell aim and thw. My question now is do I go ahead and do Voln or COL? For the shear fact alone that I don't typically like being cornered in to hunting undead if I don't want to, I'd think COL would be the way to go, but is there something I'm missing or not thinking about when considering that?

Mechanically I've always preferred COL because you're not relying on undead/favor mechanics. Clerics are already pretty powerful against undead, and what else are you going to use that spirit for, raising?

I only go Voln for RP.

[Soulance]

Mechanically I've always preferred COL because you're not relying on undead/favor mechanics. Clerics are already pretty powerful against undead, and what else are you going to use that spirit for, raising?

I only go Voln for RP.
Yea, I'm starting to wish I had gone CoL instead of Voln now. Luckily I never used favor while leveling and rarely do now. But in OTF, there really isn't much favor to be found.

[Viekn]

Question: I had to give up all religion lore to go 1x thw and 2x spell aim. Except that 306, which is my main bolt spell for now, really benefits from religion lore, especially when I hit 30 ranks, as does 301 and 316, which I'll definitely be using to help me since I'm a swinging cleric. Currently, my spells at level 22 are: 24 Cleric, 11 major spiritual for bravery, and 7 minor spirit for spirit warding II. If I drop all of my minor spiritual spells and only go 1x in First Aid vs. 2x, I can fit in 1x religion lore. Do you think it's worth it to do that seeing as my swinging/spell aim build would really seem to benefit from it?

Thanks again for the help.

[Peppwyn]

I think if you're swinging, you would be better off getting rid of first aid and trying to get to 215 for Heroism and forgo the religion lore.

[Viekn]

I think if you're swinging, you would be better off getting rid of first aid and trying to get to 215 for Heroism and forgo the religion lore.

Well, I'm not just swinging. I'm also bolting using 306. I'll get 215 in another 4 levels anyway. Getting the religion lore would unlock the acid degeneration effect on undead at 30 ranks, which would be in 6 levels if I 1x it. But if I do this, I have to buy another damn fixskills, so i just want to make sure it's worth it to do so before I do.

[Leafiara]

The acid degeneration on Holy Bolt is a nice perk, but not exactly needed and especially not something you have to rush to early on since cleric AS won't fall too far behind the curve for a long, long while. For corporeal undead, using Prayer of Holding and smashing them with your THW will be better than using Holy Bolt anyway, at least for a long time (probably all the way through Bonespear, which is 48-55). Where Holy Bolt's acid effect mostly shines is for noncorporeal undead, but the good thing about it is more that it occasionally stuns them, not so much the delayed 20-25 extra damage.



As far as societies go, my thoughts:

Voln:

26 AS, 26 DS, 13 TD, save your spellups when you die, teleport to places, and everything else mostly doesn't matter. Honestly, I'm not that enamored with Symbol of Seeking either (at least not yet... I hear that it gets better with capped hunting grounds), so to me Voln is Symbol of Recall. People sometimes vouch for Symbol of Transcendence or Symbol of Sleep too, but I almost always find that whether I survive or die, it would have happened whether I used those or not.

Depending where you hunt, favor mechanics might not be as punishing as you imagine. I got so much favor from levels 10-53 that I never needed to farm favor again until level 82 even with no undead hunting between those times while using Symbol of Courage and Protection (the AS and DS/TD boosters) twice each in most hunts and burning through one or two Symbols of Mana at Dreavenings. And by level 75-ish, most clerics would be hunting the Rift anyway and could resume with the undead again.

I hear that Illistim is a rough place for undead ratios, but River's Rest is a good one. Can't speak to either of those from experience... I can say Icemule and Landing are very good for undead, though.

CoL:

35 AS, 35 DS, 15 TD, and a couple other things that don't matter.

CoL's usual main draw is the Sign of Wracking, but that's for warding characters; using 5 spirit gives too much of an AS and DS penalty for someone who's swinging and bolting. Not really much to say here since this is the most straightforward society. It's basically whether you want 9 more AS/DS compared to Voln and whether you want to pay spirit instead of stamina for your AS and DS compared to Sunfist.

Sunfist:

And here's the most complex society... I wish I had experience to tell you more about this. Fire Spirit rips trolls apart and you're a bolter. Giantmen have great stamina and since you're THW you probably won't even be using that stamina for repeated mstrikes, so what else would you do with it? You keep mentioning not being cornered into limited hunting options and Sunfist gives you exclusive hunting options at every level. I can also tell you that pretty much everything I ever had trouble fighting as a cleric is a hated enemy of Sunfist.

I always consider leaving Voln for Sunfist (and probably would have if clerics could 2x Physical Fitness) because I could easily imagine myself using Sigil of Distraction, Sigil of Intimidation, and Sigil of Determination regularly. Like I said, though, I don't have any real experience, so I can't honestly vouch for it... but it sounds appealing on paper.

[Gnomad]

Don't forget that supremacy is another +13 AS/CS/CML vs undead.

[Erous]

Seeking is outrageously good for getting to certain areas

[Maerit]

Seeking is outrageously good for getting to certain areas at cap

Updated that for accuracy. There's not really any area that's a "challenge" to access until you're capped (or at least in the mid 80s).

[Mikalmas]

As for favor, a couple of runs in a Reim group will boost your favor ridiculously. Reim was the savior for Voln characters to amass ridiculous amounts of favor in a very short time. As a cleric, tag them with 316 then let everyone else blast them away. At Cap, Mikalmas got 250+ spins out of each Reim run.

[Leafiara]

Updated that for accuracy. There's not really any area that's a "challenge" to access until you're capped (or at least in the mid 80s).Agreed. Before the Rift, the closest thing to a challenge to get to west of the mountains is the Broken Lands, but since Viekn is asking this starting from level 22, he's going to outlevel the monks and liches very soon. So the major question is whether it's valuable to go after hooded figures, myklians, vruul, etc.

To be fair, hunts in the Broken Lands can be profitable... A lot of people ignore that area since 15-ish Arcane Symbols takes too many TPs for squares and semis other than maybe bards. On the other hand, you risk departing; it's rare that I see anyone rescue from there other than me and I can tell people aren't used to having rescuers because half the time I ;locate a corpse there, they'll be logged out or departed before I arrive even if I get there in less than three minutes.


Edit: Well, I guess there's one other place... if you're not training Survival, Symbol of Seeking could be helpful for getting into the second, third, and fourth areas of the Red Forest (it can put you in the exit spot of the second area). But the second area is unbelievably dangerous to clerics and the third area is level 70-72, so again, a long way off.

[Viekn]

Just want to make sure everyone knows I'm reading these and I appreciate the help. Haven't gone one way or the other yet. But I will soon because having the AS/DS bump from either society will definitely help. It may also depend on his RP choice which I haven't fleshed out completely yet, so he could go either way in regards to that as well.