UAC Rogue

[myriad]

I'm working on a UAC Rogue and, although it's going very well, I'd love to get some feedback on my build and direction. I'll update this as I receive and implement feedback, with the goal of eventually turning it into a guide and posting it on the Wiki. I'm hoping this will be useful to others who want to try out a UAC Rogue. After trying probably ten other classes and builds, this is the one I've enjoyed the most!

I basically built this guy starting from a wishlist and then determining what race/class/build would fit its criteria. My primary goal was to make my character as independent as possible, but still able to participate in the majority of the game's opportunities. I tried multiboxing with support accounts, and I was able to do it quite successfully, but I found that I just wasn't having as much fun. I also wanted my character to be able to make use of under-hunted areas. Sorcerer was tempting, but I've played them before and I'm just not feeling the aesthetic these days. This meant my goals were as follows, pretty much in order of importance:

Goals
* A character I could enjoy long-term, starting strong but also with a lot of long-term potential
* Able to hunt without outside spell-ups
* Able to skin well enough for most bounties
* Able to search and forage
* Not able to be disarmed, which opens up more hunting grounds and gives slight boost to EXP for having two open hands
* A bit of a jack-of-all trades, with a lot of build options and plenty of room to branch out at cap

It sounds implausible, but so far I have them all checked off!

Here are some of my choices and the reasoning behind them:

Decisions, Decisions
Race: Half-Elf, foremost for the RP (I love all the Culture options), for their size, and for their stats (+5 DEX, +10 AGI, -5 DISC, +5 INF)
Society: Voln, so that I'd be able to hunt undead easily, given that about half the game's hunting areas are undead. (I really need to start stepping him so I can get to 8 and not need to carry an extra pair of gloves/boots and swap so often. A friendly tip, I bought a couple of extra pairs and got them blessed by Dreaven's Cleric, which is about 280 swings. It's been a great temporary fix and saved me a lot of favor!)
Guild direction: I'm planning to start with Stun Maneuvers, but I've been having trouble with the script (using ;rogue right now, other recommendations welcome.)
Training:

Threshold skills
Armor Use, 30 ranks: To train off brigandine, and to learn Armor Stealth for better hiding. I picked this up ASAP because I had a decent set lockered.
Climbing, 20 ranks: For travel, and also so I can hunt in areas that require Climbing and still get back to town when encumbered. I'll increase this more later on.
Swimming: I skipped this for now because I'm not planning to hunt RR for a very long time, and I don't need it for other areas.
MoC: Skipped for now, will pick it up later, probably once I regain points from Armor Use dropping to 1x per level.
Harness Power, 5 ranks: Plenty for now given the spells I have at the moment.
Spells: 401, 103 (total of +15 DS, +10 TD, +10 bolt DS)

2.5x
Combat Maneuvers: For AS and CM avoidance. I picked up punch mastery (2), kick mastery (1), grapple mastery (1), and cunning defense (2) for the moment. Another consideration is stealth mastery -> vanish. I generally have a personal preference for passive CMs, though, because I often split my attention while hunting.

2x
Brawling: Primary weapon skill.
Ambush: I hide and aim for heads, or legs if I can't reach that high.
First Aid: For skinning tasks and faster herb eating.
Stalking and Hiding: So I can hunt undead and animals more easily, given their higher perception. I tried dropping this to 1.5x but found that creatures were finding me regularly, whereas at 2x they almost never found me.
Dodging: For DS. I tried going over 2x, but the point cost just gets huge. I plan to try reducing CM and increasing Dodging instead to see how it comparatively impacts my AS/DS.

1x
Perception: For foraging bounty tasks, dodging, and its myriad other uses.
Physical Fitness: Given the hiding tactics, 1x is sufficient.
Survival: For skinning tasks, surviving harsh hunting environments, and travel. Along with First Aid and the Half-Elf DEX bonus, it also provides good supplementary income via skins. More expensive to 2x than First Aid by a good bit (4/4 versus 2/4), so I bumped it down to 1x until later on.

0.5x
Two-Weapon Combat: For the 0.5x threshold DS bonus.

Stats
After my 30 days is up, I'll hopefully be in the mid-20s. This will soften the blow of setting stats for cap. I'm leaning towards a goal of all 100's except 79 INF. The only other reasonable alternative seemed to be leaving both INT and INF in the 80s-90s. I suppose the third consideration would be to set stats for 50 and then fixstat around 70. This looks good on paper until one realizes that 100 is 7.5m EXP, and 50 is 2.5m, so it's actually just 1/3 the journey. And by the time you're 50, I think stats set for cap will already be pretty solid. So, I'm leaning towards that first option. I'm planning to use one of my 5 resets a couple of days before the trial period ends and see if I'm still able to hunt before I commit to it.

Gaps
I've been able to reduce the spell gap in my training by dropping S&H to 2x and Survival to 1x, giving me 5 ranks of Harness Power and 4 spells (401, 103) in the level 20s. I plan to aim for 107 and then 406 next.

I'll update this tonight when I can go through my skills and make sure I didn't miss anything. Thanks for reading, and please let me know what you think!

[kutter]

I think if you really want to hunt independent of other characters then you need to be a little more realistic about what you can accomplish. The fact of the matter is that you will need spells, as you point out, at least 9 and some HP to use them. Since skins when you are young are not worth nearly as much as ones when you get older, I would forego any skinning skills and get spells first then if you still feel it train in skinning stuff. You will not get skinning bounties if you do not have any skinning skills so you do not have to worry about losing out on them. You might want to think about some AS and MIU as well, scrolls and statues help being independent and the added duration are always nice.

Having said all these things I realized, you might be better with some sort of semi like a ranger, better TD and much easier to learn magic skills and if you really want to skin, they are always better than rogues.

[m444w]

3x S/Hing isn't going to really make all that much of a difference at those level vs perceptive creatures either, you either can or cannot hide in front of something that is the same level.

I would recommend 1.75x S/H even 1.5x S/H, it's what I did all the way to cap, and gives you a lot of free TPs to pick up spells.

[Viekn]

I recently gave up being a UAC ranger after level 15 because I realized I wanted to try a warrior instead. But UAC was great and the skinning/foraging was great.

[kutter]

3x S/Hing isn't going to really make all that much of a difference at those level vs perceptive creatures either, you either can or cannot hide in front of something that is the same level.

I would recommend 1.75x S/H even 1.5x S/H, it's what I did all the way to cap, and gives you a lot of free TPs to pick up spells.

The simple fact is that some things are just almost impossible to hide from, even at 3X, my rogue is 2X and the things he can hide from are not a problem and the things you cannot like undead and canine based, no one seems to have much luck hiding from.

[myriad]

I recently gave up being a UAC ranger after level 15 because I realized I wanted to try a warrior instead. But UAC was great and the skinning/foraging was great.

I thought about UAC ranger, but decided against it because I didn't want to deal with a pet, or feel that I was sub-optimal for not having one. I also felt that Rangers had relatively tight training regimens, whereas Rogues had a lot more build freedom. Now that I'm polishing my training, though, I'm seeing that maybe it comes out about the same, except Rangers have an easier time getting spells?

[Viekn]

I thought about UAC ranger, but decided against it because I didn't want to deal with a pet, or feel that I was sub-optimal for not having one. I also felt that Rangers had relatively tight training regimens, whereas Rogues had a lot more build freedom. Now that I'm polishing my training, though, I'm seeing that maybe it comes out about the same, except Rangers have an easier time getting spells?

Same realization I came to.

[myriad]

Same realization I came to.

Well, fuck.

What made you swap to Warrior?

[Viekn]

I was constantly rolling up new characters (not warriors) and trying to fit in all these combat skills that I really liked but was always too tight TP wise. I always thought I hated warriors but in reality that's what I kept trying to essentially create but as a rogue/ranger etc. Finally I was like, fuck it, just going to be a warrior! Plus 3x armor training is great. And I always loved TWC in the open. Who else can do that better than a warrior?

[myriad]

Same realization I came to.

Are there any Rogues out there who want to disagree before I throw up my hands and roll up a UAC Ranger?

[Viekn]

Goals
* A character I could enjoy long-term, starting strong but also with a lot of long-term potential
* Able to hunt without outside spell-ups
* Able to skin well enough for most bounties
* Able to search and forage
* Not able to be disarmed, which opens up more hunting grounds and gives slight boost to EXP for having two open hands
* A bit of a jack-of-all trades, with a lot of options in different areas

Just be clear about what you want and determine what your bottom lines are for goals. You may have to adjust some.

From my understanding, UAC works better on a rogue than it does a ranger because of the typical hide/ambush style of a rogue. While I always liked the crit bonus you get from ambushing from hiding, I never liked the whole hiding and sneaking mechanic personally. So if UAC effectiveness is a main goal of yours, you may want to consider keeping with the rogue.

You mention wanting to be independent. You have to realize though that Simu didn't really build the game to maximize independence. We are all live in game running around a text based world. Simu wants people to cooperate. Why do you think at the Adv Guild the taskmaster always says you can get people to help you with this task if you want. But if independence is your MAIN goal, you probably need to be a pure. Unless you just always hunt non-magical critters (which I think would be near impossible and boring) then you're going to need spells. But if you'll notice, spell TP's are extremely high for rogues and warriors. My main is a wizard, and I still have to either stock up on scrolls with spirit spells or get those spells from someone else if I want to make sure I'm truly effective out in the field. Also, I don't typically do any bandits or escort bounties because I can't afford the TP's to train in combat maneuvers in order to properly defend myself. Those bastards routinely cut my throat and stack me in RT and I get fucked every time. But if I invited characters from other professions to join me, it would be much easier. Again, just part of Simu encouraging not so much dependence on others but cooperation. And with the availability of Dreavenings and house service nights, it's much easier these days to get spells. And if you're in a pinch and you're playing during the day, offer someone 20k for a spellup. It lasts 4 friggin hours! That's definitely worth 20k in my book.

Now on to skinning. With adding the skills needed to reliably skin, your using up TP's that will likely leave you short changed somewhere else if you're a rogue. That's a fine goal, but like kutter says, you'll need to be more realistic about what you can accomplish then if you want to be able to do that.

When I occasionally go inactive because I'm super busy at work and then I come back the next month and re-sub via the website, my list of available characters to reactivate is LITTERED (15+) with guys I've rolled up and abandoned because I was trying to fit too many goals into one character. I think if you want to be a jack of all trades, ranger and especially rogue are the way to go, but that doesn't mean you can still have everything you want. You're going to have to make sacrifices somewhere. I highly suggest you really narrow down on a couple of MAIN goals and go from there.

Remember that once you get in to your 50's, 60's, 70's +, assuming you actually do and assuming you haven't tried to spread yourself too thin, you should have more TP's at that time because of stat gains. It's post cap where you really get the chance to do what you want and be more independent. But the people who can do that have earned the ability to be able to do so because they put in the time to cap and go beyond (2x cap, 3x cap, etc.)

[myriad]

Just be clear about what you want and determine what your bottom lines are for goals. You may have to adjust some.

From my understanding, UAC works better on a rogue than it does a ranger because of the typical hide/ambush style of a rogue. While I always liked the crit bonus you get from ambushing from hiding, I never liked the whole hiding and sneaking mechanic personally. So if UAC effectiveness is a main goal of yours, you may want to consider keeping with the rogue.

You mention wanting to be independent. You have to realize though that Simu didn't really build the game to maximize independence. We are all live in game running around a text based world. Simu wants people to cooperate. Why do you think at the Adv Guild the taskmaster always says you can get people to help you with this task if you want. But if independence is your MAIN goal, you probably need to be a pure. Unless you just always hunt non-magical critters (which I think would be near impossible and boring) then you're going to need spells. But if you'll notice, spell TP's are extremely high for rogues and warriors. My main is a wizard, and I still have to either stock up on scrolls with spirit spells or get those spells from someone else if I want to make sure I'm truly effective out in the field. Also, I don't typically do any bandits or escort bounties because I can't afford the TP's to train in combat maneuvers in order to properly defend myself. Those bastards routinely cut my throat and stack me in RT and I get fucked every time. But if I invited characters from other professions to join me, it would be much easier. Again, just part of Simu encouraging not so much dependence on others but cooperation. And with the availability of Dreavenings and house service nights, it's much easier these days to get spells. And if you're in a pinch and you're playing during the day, offer someone 20k for a spellup. It lasts 4 friggin hours! That's definitely worth 20k in my book.

Now on to skinning. With adding the skills needed to reliably skin, your using up TP's that will likely leave you short changed somewhere else if you're a rogue. That's a fine goal, but like kutter says, you'll need to be more realistic about what you can accomplish then if you want to be able to do that.

When I occasionally go inactive because I'm super busy at work and then I come back the next month and re-sub via the website, my list of available characters to reactivate is LITTERED (15+) with guys I've rolled up and abandoned because I was trying to fit too many goals into one character. I think if you want to be a jack of all trades, ranger and especially rogue are the way to go, but that doesn't mean you can still have everything you want. You're going to have to make sacrifices somewhere. I highly suggest you really narrow down on a couple of MAIN goals and go from there.

Remember that once you get in to your 50's, 60's, 70's +, assuming you actually do and assuming you haven't tried to spread yourself too thin, you should have more TP's at that time because of stat gains. It's post cap where you really get the chance to do what you want and be more independent. But the people who can do that have earned the ability to be able to do so because they put in the time to cap and go beyond (2x cap, 3x cap, etc.)

Hey, thanks for the thoughtful response. I know the game is designed for dependence, which is perhaps part of why I enjoy trying to play independently -- it's a nice challenge. I feel like I'll be able to accomplish that with either Rogue or Ranger, but it might be a little smoother with the latter. I think in the end, I just need to try out Ranger, at least up until level 20 or so, and see if I like it more than Rogue.

[myriad]

I thought about this some more and decided to drop S&H to 2x and Survival to 1x (keeping 2x First Aid). This gave me enough points to pick up 5 ranks of Harness Power and 4 spells ranks, giving me 401 and 103, which is a big boost while hunting (+15 DS, +10 TD, and an additional +10 bolt DS). I'm also going to invest in some charged statues, white crystals, and black crystals, and probably a Duskruin crystal holder with a bunch of the Bravery ones. If I can put together a script to use them all pre-hunting with no hassle, that'll be a massive boost.

Looking at the Ranger spells, I asked myself, how many of them are just compensating for the differences between Ranger and Rogue in terms of Dodging/Hiding/AS/general combat effectiveness? I think the answer is "Almost all." Sure, Rangers will always be better skinners and foragers, but my Rogue is good enough to plow through bounties no problem, even with only 1x Survival, thanks partially to that nice Half-Elven Dexterity bonus. He'll probably always be better at UAC than a ranger, too. He'll never be able to cast like a pure, but I wouldn't build Ranger like that anyway. I don't particularly want a pet, and being able to go-go-go without spending time waiting for mana to spell myself up is a huge attraction for me. Rogues are just as jack-of-all-trades as Rangers when it comes to cap, which is also important to me. Overall, I think Rogue is a better fit, and I'm going to keep working on this fellow.

[Androidpk]

The semi classes are strapped for training points earlier on but in the end I think they make up for it with how powerful they become.

[myriad]

The semi classes are strapped for training points earlier on but in the end I think they make up for it with how powerful they become.

In what way, comparing UAC Ranger versus UAC Rogue? I guess I'm not seeing how Ranger would be so much more powerful later on.

[Donquix]

Because you'd have essentially all the same skills a rogue gets...plus ranger spells? Is that not like...pretty obvious?

Both can 2x CM, both can 2x brawl, both can 2x ambush, both can 2x S/H (rogues can 3x, but really you can either hide from something or you can't there's not a lot of difference in going 2-3x, plus ranger spells help)

Literally the only advantage a rogue has a ranger can't acquire specific to UAC is the mastery CMans. In return you also have spikethorn, camo, self-control, mobility, companion...etc.

Play whatever class you want, sounds like you like the concept of rogue more and rangers do start off considerably slower (honestly i hate playing rangers / bards in the early levels too). But yeah...in terms of power in the longterm....rangers. Without question.

edit to add: i'm currently playing my rogue so, I'm not advocating against playing them in lieu of a ranger. But yeah...semis in gemstone. Turns out getting basically all the physical skills and a stupid powerful profession spell list is good in the long term.

[Whirlin]

If you want to use a UAC hand-held weapon and/or a shield, Rogue is the way to go.
If you're planning on being open hand, mainly kicking, ranger is the way to go.

[myriad]

If you want to use a UAC hand-held weapon and/or a shield, Rogue is the way to go.
If you're planning on being open hand, mainly kicking, ranger is the way to go.

What makes rangers better for open-handed?

Seems to me that the +15 MM bonus and 15% tier-up bonus from masteries in UAC is huge, regardless of open-handed or not, no?

[kutter]

If you want to use a UAC hand-held weapon and/or a shield, Rogue is the way to go.
If you're planning on being open hand, mainly kicking, ranger is the way to go.

I think if you are going open handed mainly kicking then wizard is the way to go, but that is just me, spamming 1 second flaring boot kicks is pretty effective, even if your UAF is slightly lower, being able to attack 500-600% more helps a lot.

[Androidpk]

Be an onion instead.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apy-jiCb9gA

[Hymore246]

Hello, high level UAC rogue checking in. I'm currently hunting in Nelemar. Let me explain the general philosophy of being a UAC rogue. This might help you decide if you want to be a rogue.

1) Your offense comes completely from crit killing. Punch mastery ranks, 2x ambush, open handed ambushing UAC and you need to be able to hide well for the crit bonus. This also means fighting things that can't be crit (non-corporeal undead, constructs) is going to waste a lot of your time.

2) Your defense comes from hiding. You need to not be seen by critters as much as possible. Your DS will be lower than normal due to lack of a shield. Ranged attacks will kill you. Warding spells will DESTROY you. So you need to fight things that cannot pull you out of stealth and the undead do this a lot. You need to take every precaution to get back into hiding as fast as you can: atleast 2x H&S, Stealth Mastery, Vanish, Armored Stealth and so on.

3) You will have some free TP to diversify your rogue as you level. For example, I'm a locksmith with 2x locks and disarm, 24 ranks in AS and MIU, and have a few extra spells. But this stuff needs to take a backseat to the above two points. You cannot skimp on your combat training or you will not be able to hunt at all. You will probably be mid-30s before you start seeing TP free up.


As for the Rogue vs Ranger argument. I haven't met a UAC ranger so I don't know how well they work but I will say that you will have a lot of trouble fitting in all the skills you need to hunt at lower levels. Rangers may have their spells but don't forget how powerful Rogue maneuvers and guild skills are. Vanish and Stun Maneuvers have saved my butt more times than I can count. Punch Mastery is very strong because MM is a huge factor in crit killing. I'm sure rangers can be competitive at high level but you need to get to that point first. And that might end up being a very uphill battle.