Narost - add a new map

[Mice]

Anyone know how to add a new map to narost? I created a map of Silvergate Inn (my first map and hopefully not last). I'd also love to help add the new Burrows map added too.

I'm not sure if I should send Tillmen an email with the map and corresponding room numbers, dig into code etc.

Any input or advice is greatly appreciated!

[Mice]

Just dug this up. Not surprisingly, Tillmen already answered this! http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?57828-lrn2map

[Taar]

Nice job on the maps!

[Mice]

Couldn't have done it with Allereli sharing the Twilight Hall map with me. I literally never opened Visio before this and that map was my whole model.

[Allereli]

Nice job on the maps!

the Burrow map is also mine.

[Allereli]

I have told Mice this privately, but I'll let everyone know publicly. I thought it was a given, but you should not completely copy someone's mapping style. If someone is nice enough to release their source files, at least try to make it your own.

While there is a "special thanks" there is no clear indication that the mapping style is mine.

[JNewhall]

What is a mapping "style"? I have never made a map, but all narost maps look pretty alike (in style) to me.

Was it a copy of a logo or compass or something like that?

[Mice]

I have told Mice this privately, but I'll let everyone know publicly. I thought it was a given, but you should not completely copy someone's mapping style. If someone is nice enough to release their source files, at least try to make it your own.

While there is a "special thanks" there is no clear indication that the mapping style is mine.

Wow. So spending hours mapping something out in-game and on paper and then translating it into Visio by yourself counts for nothing I suppose.

Since I copied Allereli's colors (I felt other maps at times are are bland) I felt that warranted a special notation.

Apparently I stole the whole thing and stole the style.

Don't worry, I'll delete the map from the wiki and remove and links. Don't want to ruffle any feathers.


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[Allereli]

What is a mapping "style"? I have never made a map, but all narost maps look pretty alike (in style) to me.

Was it a copy of a logo or compass or something like that?

using the exact same color scheme and font combinations. If you want to give proper credit, fine.

[Allereli]

Since I copied Allereli's colors (I felt other maps at times are are bland) I felt that warranted a special notation.

you didn't credit exactly what was from me. I have told you how to rectify it.

[Mice]

I deleted the map everywhere I could. Issue should be resolved.

[m444w]

I have told Mice this privately, but I'll let everyone know publicly. I thought it was a given, but you should not completely copy someone's mapping style. If someone is nice enough to release their source files, at least try to make it your own.

While there is a "special thanks" there is no clear indication that the mapping style is mine.

I don't think any sane person could have reasonably assumed he was supposed to modify the styles, in fact you can make a very logical argument that all of the maps, regardless of author should have the exact same style, for uniformity and ease of use.

If you want to make the argument that all of the maps with said style should have attribution, that's fine, but to not voice your expectations up front is your fault, not his.

Let's not deter people from making public contributions to the community.

[Allereli]

I don't think any sane person could have reasonably assumed he was supposed to modify the styles, in fact you can make a very logical argument that all of the maps, regardless of author should have the exact same style, for uniformity and ease of use.

If you want to make the argument that all of the maps with said style should have attribution, that's fine, but to not voice your expectations up front is your fault, not his.

Let's not deter people from making public contributions to the community.

I told him exactly how to write the attribution, if he decides not to follow through, that's on him, not me. I said it's fine to use the style and attribute it properly. I don't do much in terms of art or anything creative for that matter, and I don't put my name on a vast majority of contributions I make to the community, but my maps are something I put effort into making my own, just like Rozy has her own style.

[Mice]

I told him exactly how to write the attribution, if he decides not to follow through, that's on him, not me. I said it's fine to use the style and attribute it properly. I don't do much in terms of art or anything creative for that matter, and I don't put my name on a vast majority of contributions I make to the community, but my maps are something I put effort into making my own, just like Rozy has her own style.

Ok last response as to not drag this out further...I too put a lot of time and effort into making my silvergate map. I openly admit I copied your map's font and colors. I noted your name for it and acknowledged you everywhere I could before this even became an issue. I didn't try reinventing the wheel and I felt your twilight hall map was beautiful.

Since I drew the map from scratch, saying you made the map with me is not something I'd consider.

That said I respect your feelings and where you're coming from so I deleted my map out of respect for you. I take the notion of plagiarism seriously and it is my hope the issue is now resolved and we harbor no ill feelings.

-Mice


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[Gelston]

My God Allereli, calm your bitchiness. Other people can do things for the game too.

[Allereli]

saying you made the map with me is not something I'd consider.

That said I respect your feelings and where you're coming from so I deleted my map out of respect for you. I take the notion of plagiarism seriously and it is my hope the issue is now resolved and we harbor no ill feelings.

-Mice

I didn't say to take your name off of it, here is the exact attribution, you still keep your name on it.


Map design by Allereli Lissina Faendryl

"Map style" is also fine

[Allereli]

My God Allereli, calm your bitchiness. Other people can do things for the game too.

Yes, they can, but as Mice acknowledged, it was plagiarism.

[myriad]

Yes, they can, but as Mice acknowledged, it was plagiarism.

First of all, copying a color scheme is not plagiarism, especially if he cited you, which he did.

Second, Mice is a fine guy. I bet if you had asked him in a respectful, friendly manner, "Hey, I'm not satisfied with the way you credited my work, could you please post it [another way]?", then (a) he would have done it, (b) we would still have a map of Silvergate, and (c) you wouldn't come off as nasty, rude, and bitter. You should try that next time, it works way better for everyone.

[Allereli]

First of all, copying a color scheme is not plagiarism, especially if he cited you, which he did.

Second, Mice is a fine guy. I bet if you had asked him in a respectful, friendly manner, "Hey, I'm not satisfied with the way you credited my work, could you please post it [another way]?", then (a) he would have done it, (b) we would still have a map of Silvergate, and (c) you wouldn't come off as nasty, rude, and bitter. You should try that next time, it works way better for everyone.

I did ask him privately to credit me in a different way. I posted here because people were taking my Burrow map as his, too. The map of Silvergate is still on the Wiki, it has not been removed.

[Donquix]

Change the map to plain black and white

See if we can Tsoran back to make a similar complaint.

[jumbodog]

Did this thread really just happen?

-Hey! I made something to help everyone
-Hrm... that looks a lot like that thing I did to help a while back
-Yes! I used yours as a template
...
The end result is... what? Hurt feelings and no contributions to the community? How does that help?

[Gelston]

Did this thread really just happen?

-Hey! I made something to help everyone
-Hrm... that looks a lot like that thing I did to help a while back
-Yes! I used yours as a template
...
Then end result is... what? Hurt feelings and no contributions to the community? How does that help?

Standby for negrep from her saying you've never worked on anything in your life.

[jumbodog]

Standby for negrep from her saying you've never worked on anything in your life.

heh. Standing by.

Also, I don't see how that negrep makes any sense. I'm simply pointing out that I don't understand how this ended up this way. Just don't get it.

[Gelston]

heh. Standing by.

Also, I don't see how that negrep makes any sense. I'm simply pointing out that I don't understand how this ended up this way. Just don't get it.

She generally comes off to me as someone that either wants you to do things she says or it is horrible and you should be ashamed.

[Allereli]

heh. Standing by.

Also, I don't see how that negrep makes any sense. I'm simply pointing out that I don't understand how this ended up this way. Just don't get it.

Me neither, after I did him a huge favor, he doesn't want to do a requested change that in no way takes away from his effort, when people were already mistaking my work for his.

[Allereli]

She generally comes off to me as someone that either wants you to do things she says or it is horrible and you should be ashamed.

I asked for something pretty simple, so take it up with him. The map is still available, I have not taken anything away from anyone.

[Alashir]

using the exact same color scheme and font combinations. If you want to give proper credit, fine.

Wow and just when I thought maxgyver had the douchebag of the year award all wrapped up...

[Allereli]

Wow and just when I thought maxgyver had the douchebag of the year award all wrapped up...

and what have you created?

[Pyro]

Wow you sound like a raging bitch. Who cares? Are you showing off your GS maps for work credentials? What do you possibly hope to gain from this other than stroking your epeen pride?

[Allereli]

Wow you sound like a raging bitch. Who cares? Are you showing off your GS maps for work credentials? What do you possibly hope to gain from this other than stroking your epeen pride?

Wow you sound like someone outraged for no reason.

[Pyro]

No, not outraged. Just trying to figure out why you're stifling community growth with ridiculous nonsense.

[Allereli]

No, not outraged. Just trying to figure out why you're stifling community growth with ridiculous nonsense.

How am I stifling community growth when I let him see my source file in the first place? I asked for a simple change to the credit because I have a series of at least 10 maps that use the same font, and the TH map uses the exact same colors.

[Tgo01]

How am I stifling community growth when I let him see my source file in the first place? I asked for a simple change to the credit because I have a series of at least 10 maps that look like this.

I mean, I kind of get where you're coming from, but he apparently put "Special thanks to Allereli" on the map and said he couldn't have made the map without your help, but you wanted "Map design by Allereli Lissina Faendryl" or "Map style by Allereli Lissina Faendryl." I see Mice's point of view on this one, both of those sound like you created the map.

[Pyro]

What benefit do you gain from it? Seriously? Do you get royalties from Simu? Do your friends shower you with praise everytime they open narost? You're acting like this is proprietary property that you make money off. I mean, I could see being upset if that was the case, but it's a MUD for gods sake with a population of maybe 400 unique users. Eventually this will all be gone and none of it will matter anyway. You're not exactly creating timeless monuments here. Hell, I'll submit a whole new style that everyone can use if they want, if people wanna submit new content, by all means, go ahead.

[Allereli]

Hell, I'll submit a whole new style that everyone can use if they want, if people wanna submit new content, by all means, go ahead.

please do so.

As I wrote before, this is pretty much the only creative undertaking I do that I put my name on. When you see someone's alteration, or custom login or verb in game, do you ever think of taking it word for word? There's no real monetary gain or loss there for the item/login/verb owner, but I bet you wouldn't.

[Pyro]

As I wrote before, this is pretty much the only creative undertaking I do that I put my name on.

Thanks for clarifying that for me. I'm done here.

[Taernath]

Jesus Christ, Allereli.

[Luxelle]

I have Photoshop, fonts, and all the colors known to Adobe.

Is there anything I can do to help save the Silvergate Map?

And thank you to the person who linked up Mister Tillmen's answer about maps.

~L.

[JNewhall]

using the exact same color scheme and font combinations. If you want to give proper credit, fine.

I'm not sure I can back you on this. Every GS map I've seen is derivative of Tsoran's maps: they all use squares with lines connecting. None use circles, or triangles or octagons. No one bothers to credit Tsoran because (a) the name "narost" implicitly credits him and (b) his style has become second nature.

Plus, Tsoran's maps and everyone else's are derivative works from copyrighted Simutronics materials. I just don't think font and colors are worthy of special credits when other maps don't specially credit Tsoran and Simutronics, whose contributions are greater by an order of magnitude.

Just my opinion.

[drauz]

If you can simply change the color and font of something and it no longer becomes plagiarism, then its not plagiarism. Its not like you made the map then he just signed his name to it. Using someones "style" is so common place in the art world its not even funny. I would take it as a compliment.

[Allereli]

I'm not sure I can back you on this. Every GS map I've seen is derivative of Tsoran's maps: they all use squares with lines connecting. None use circles, or triangles or octagons. No one bothers to credit Tsoran because (a) the name "narost" implicitly credits him and (b) his style has become second nature.

Plus, Tsoran's maps and everyone else's are derivative works from copyrighted Simutronics materials. I just don't think font and colors are worthy of special credits when other maps don't specially credit Tsoran and Simutronics, whose contributions are greater by an order of magnitude.

Just my opinion.

actually Morandas and Zepath were mapping earlier. Game maps are generally going to all have boxes and lines, that's from using graphing paper, if you remember that. You don't have to back me. I didn't say to not post the map, and as I said the map is still available on the wiki. I don't feel like what I asked for indicated that I made the Silvergate map, but other people are already mistaking my work for his. As one of the few people who bothers to take the time to map, and since I did him the favor of showing him my map vsds, asking for one little thing shouldn't be a problem.

[phantasm]

I agree with Allereli, he copied her vsds, he should put her name on it exactly as she asked.

Does anyone have that zip file of Tsoran's vsds that he gave out circa 2007?

[Gnomad]

I agree with Allereli, he copied her vsds, he should put her name on it exactly as she asked.

Yup.

When I saw the map, I thought, "Wait, why is there a thread about this and about adding it to narost, this map has been in there since my character joined Silvergate." But it turns out I was thinking of the map Allereli made for Twilight that's been in narost since my other character joined that house.

[Legales]

Why would you bother sharing your VSD file if you didn't want to be copied in any way? I can't find the map, but it sounds like he ask for her file and he then credited her in some way so I don't see what the big deal is. Check the egos people, it should be about helping the community.

[Allereli]

so I don't see what the big deal is

https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T1WLH2Z8B-F3A7C8N76/pasted_image_at_2016_12_02_07_05_pm.png

Do you see it now? Gnomad was confused. A Silvergate officer said they looked "eerily similar."

Mice has updated his file to make it look different. Thank you, Mice.

https://gswiki.play.net/File:Silvergate_Inn.png

For everyone of you who say "it should be about helping the community," let's see your maps.

[Legales]

Ok I see both versions and I see you were cited. So did you share the files with him or did he somehow reverse engineer your work? If you shared them I am utterly confused how this all happened. If not, I'd agree he owes you an apology.


https://files.slack.com/files-pri/T1WLH2Z8B-F3A7C8N76/pasted_image_at_2016_12_02_07_05_pm.png

Do you see it now? Gnomad was confused. A Silvergate officer said they looked "eerily similar."

Mice has updated his file to make it look different. Thank you, Mice.

https://gswiki.play.net/File:Silvergate_Inn.png

For everyone of you who say "it should be about helping the community," let's see your maps.

[Tgo01]

For everyone of you who say "it should be about helping the community," let's see your maps.

Since you asked...I do plenty to help the community, I have even had people ask me if they can copy and paste some of my code directly into one of their scripts and I said sure and never once asked to be credited in anyway. In fact I'm pretty sure most people didn't credit me and that's still fine with me.

I think it's awesome you help the community in the way that you do and I also think it's awesome you were willing to help Mice help the community as well, but looking at the new Silvergate map, the old Silvergate map, and your Twilight Hall map, I can't believe all of this friction and ill will towards one another was over a few shades of color and some font choices.

[Allereli]

I shared with him because he had never used Visio before and didn't know how to use it. Since I would never copy someone's style like that, I asked for the map style credit, and he flipped out and tried to delete it from wherever he could.

[Mice]

Hey all. I had hoped this would die down a little by now. I'm terribly sorry this has been such an ordeal. I never intended to hurt anyone's feelings. I originally intended my map to look like Allereli's and I didn't realize she would be upset. I was unable to delete the map from wiki. I had hoped uploading a new one would over-write the original, but it doesn't.

I've request on the play.net forums that both be removed by and admin and hopefully they will be soon. http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Help%20for%20Players/WIKI%20Discussions/thread/1818439?get_newest=true

I hope we can all forget and move on from this. In the meantime let's all get along and help make GS4 greatest MUD there is.

[Allereli]

Since you asked...I do plenty to help the community, I have even had people ask me if they can copy and paste some of my code directly into one of their scripts and I said sure and never once asked to be credited in anyway. In fact I'm pretty sure most people didn't credit me and that's still fine with me.

And I've written hundreds of pages that people quote and link to all the time and I don't ask for credit. I for this one little thing and the usual assholes like Gelston come in and try to crucify me.

[Allereli]

Hey all. I had hoped this would die down a little by now. I'm terribly sorry this has been such an ordeal. I never intended to hurt anyone's feelings. I originally intended my map to look like Allereli's and I didn't realize she would be upset. I was unable to delete the map from wiki. I had hoped uploading a new one would over-write the original, but it doesn't.

I appreciate your new map and think you should keep that one and use it. I'm also happy to help you with Visio.

[Luxelle]

and before there was Zepath, there was Trebor... just sayin'

The very first scripter in GS.