A serious question\input about ranged combat Attn: Wyrom

[Neveragain]

For years I would always try going ranged, particularly after the change to rogues with GSIV. After a couple weeks of working with it I would always return to the sword and board ambush for the same reason, having to deal with ammo. From messing with picking up and sorting all my missiles to blessing and e-blading them, the annoyance would always make me go back to the trusty sword and board. Other than the annoyance I really liked the ranged system, even more I loved the lock picking\disarming system (Yet to be matched by any other game IMO) as to the main reason I would always try to go to ranged in the first place.

Obviously not having any idea of what the code looks like, I'll be making a few assumptions. The first assumption would be that the coding already exists in some form to create bows that are "self ammo" as self ammo bows already exist in the game. I can't say I speak for anyone else but I know the ammo issue is a common reason that folks don't use the ranged system. In past conversations I've had often the counter argument is "what would they do with the fletching system?" and I have always thought that could be converted in some way to making bows and crossbows.

Is there a reason Gemstone continues with ammo as a standard?

Is crafting self ammo bows and crossbows just not doable?

[Taernath]

Ammo is mostly fine. Bundling could use a bit of reworking, or maybe they could change 100 stack arrows to just a single item of 'arrows' that stays in your hand and removes the need to search/gather/bundle/load, but that's about it. A big draw for fletching and archery is the ability to easily make a 10x weapon, and I would really prefer that not be changed.

[Neveragain]

Ammo is mostly fine. Bundling could use a bit of reworking, or maybe they could change 100 stack arrows to just a single item of 'arrows' that stays in your hand and removes the need to search/gather/bundle/load, but that's about it. A big draw for fletching and archery is the ability to easily make a 10x weapon, and I would really prefer that not be changed.

Mostly I'm just thinking of two things, ease of use and ease of the coding involved. Maybe quivers...?

[Whirlin]

There's a handful of self-ammo bows, and duping quivers out there. As well as an entire artisan skill dedicated to making arrows. Hell, I make a decent chunk of money selling master-fletched, holy-water blessed, or permanent-flaring 5x arrows, as well as 1x fire attuned master fletched e-bladed arrows at my FWI shop at room 3872. Instantly depreciating a thousands of dollars of items, hundreds of hours of artisan skills, and cutting off peoples' incomes isn't going to win any friends.

If that's insufficient ways to get arrows, you're welcome to use simple store bought arrows and replenishing them between hunts. Arrows cost less than 1 silver per arrow, and easily macro'ed/scripted. Both on picking up and/or on purchasing between hunts.

[Neveragain]

There's a handful of self-ammo bows, and duping quivers out there. As well as an entire artisan skill dedicated to making arrows. Hell, I make a decent chunk of money selling master-fletched, holy-water blessed, or permanent-flaring 5x arrows, as well as 1x fire attuned master fletched e-bladed arrows at my FWI shop at room 3872. Instantly depreciating a thousands of dollars of items, hundreds of hours of artisan skills, and cutting off peoples' incomes isn't going to win any friends.

If that's insufficient ways to get arrows, you're welcome to use simple store bought arrows and replenishing them between hunts. Arrows cost less than 1 silver per arrow, and easily macro'ed/scripted. Both on picking up and/or on purchasing between hunts.

Somehow I expected this to be your reply. Completely overlooking at how much it sucks messing with ammo, which was my only complaint. Overlooking the mention of replacing the artisan skill, agreeing that the code is already there but not wanting it to be the norm because you have placed cash value on an item <--- this is not a reason to prevent a major part of a combat system from sucking.

[Donquix]

getting rid of the stupid "out of reach" mechanic would go a long way...so annoying. The random ammo just disappearing could stay for ammo attrition, get rid of the arrows being hidden in the room or cap search RT for them low (and reveal all of them in one search...oh no, encroaching on phoens utility) would make it suck less without really hurting the existing high end item stuff too bad. The whole system is just cumbersome.

[Alashir]

getting rid of the stupid "out of reach" mechanic would go a long way...so annoying. The random ammo just disappearing could stay for ammo attrition, get rid of the arrows being hidden in the room or cap search RT for them low (and reveal all of them in one search...oh no, encroaching on phoens utility) would make it suck less without really hurting the existing high end item stuff too bad. The whole system is just cumbersome.
This

[neimanz1]

fix thrown weapons first!

[HeyJoe]

Somehow I expected this to be your reply. Completely overlooking at how much it sucks messing with ammo, which was my only complaint. Overlooking the mention of replacing the artisan skill, agreeing that the code is already there but not wanting it to be the norm because you have placed cash value on an item <--- this is not a reason to prevent a major part of a combat system from sucking.

Ammo can be a pain but is very manageable with macros or a script. However, it makes getting your weapon up to 10x very easy as the bonus from ammo stacks with your weapon. Additionally, the total enchant you get naturally scales with your level so you don't even have to try and figure out what to use or not use.

[Ososis]

Make warrior made quivers auto bundling. Or extra deep. woukd that help?
Shameless warrior bump.

[Destrier]

Rangers could make quivers.
Rangers could cast something on bundles of arrows in a quiver, that make them auto return to the quiver for xxx amount of time.
Rangers could get some damn thing that makes them cool archers.

Rangers have magic. Let those arrows fly.

[Neveragain]

getting rid of the stupid "out of reach" mechanic would go a long way...so annoying. The random ammo just disappearing could stay for ammo attrition, get rid of the arrows being hidden in the room or cap search RT for them low (and reveal all of them in one search...oh no, encroaching on phoens utility) would make it suck less without really hurting the existing high end item stuff too bad. The whole system is just cumbersome.

I kind of posted this topic to make a point and ranged combat was the perfect example to make it. You have an important system that has needed reviewing for a long period of time and will never be fixed because of the cash market.

New Player: I want to be Robin Hood.

New player goes out and uses the ranged combat system for the first time.

New Player: Fuck being Robin Hood

Veteran Player: Oh don't worry it will get better, you just need to spend $100's of dollars on one of these cool bows then you don't have to fuck with the bad parts.

New Player: LOL, fuck being Robin Hood.

The cash value you have placed on these items should never have to be taken into consideration for a company trying to improve it's product and grow it's customer base. If you or others are going to hold their feet to the fire over cash value, they may as well just say fuck it.

[Enuch]

I think you are oversimplifying and overstating the problem.

I have done ranged on a number of characters but never stuck with it for some of the reasons you listed but I don't think the issue is with super bows being the problem.

I think a great deal of the tedium could be fixed just by addressing the bless issue and the can't reach mechanic/bundling mechanic. I think changing the need to have arrows blessed/flared to the weapon itself carrying the bless/flare would alleviate a ton of woes. That alone would make me switch to ranged because it was such a hassle bundling arrows without blesses versus arrows with. Same with flaring. And yes I get there is a market for the player made flaring arrows and blessed arrows but even with the changes player made arrows are still need for the 5x. You could keep the old flaring arrows too because like weapons you make some not compatible for 411 or 304.

[Neveragain]

I think you are oversimplifying and overstating the problem.

I have done ranged on a number of characters but never stuck with it for some of the reasons you listed but I don't think the issue is with super bows being the problem.

I think a great deal of the tedium could be fixed just by addressing the bless issue and the can't reach mechanic/bundling mechanic. I think changing the need to have arrows blessed/flared to the weapon itself carrying the bless/flare would alleviate a ton of woes. That alone would make me switch to ranged because it was such a hassle bundling arrows without blesses versus arrows with. Same with flaring. And yes I get there is a market for the player made flaring arrows and blessed arrows but even with the changes player made arrows are still need for the 5x. You could keep the old flaring arrows too because like weapons you make some not compatible for 411 or 304.

Super bows are not the problem, they are a fix.

Here is another example to put it into perspective. Hunters in WOW (not trying to equate the two) used to have to carry a quiver and keep ammo in their inventory. If you know anything about the history of hunters in WOW, you know they have been rehashed many times mostly they have been made worse over that time. Probably the one greatest change they made for ranged was when they removed the ammo, you didn't even have to gather your ammo in the past and it still improved the ranged system bigly. The only thing that sucked was that my ice barbed arrows didn't make the cool cobalt blue streak across the screen anymore, all those struggles in Alterac Valley for not.

[Warriorbird]

Make warrior made quivers auto bundling. Or extra deep. woukd that help?
Shameless warrior bump.

People always whine about useful Warrior specific crafting. It'd be cool though, and flavorful, given sheaths.

[Alashir]

Super bows are not the problem, they are a fix.

Here is another example to put it into perspective. Hunters in WOW (not trying to equate the two) used to have to carry a quiver and keep ammo in their inventory. If you know anything about the history of hunters in WOW, you know they have been rehashed many times mostly they have been made worse over that time. Probably the one greatest change they made for ranged was when they removed the ammo, you didn't even have to gather your ammo in the past and it still improved the ranged system bigly. The only thing that sucked was that my ice barbed arrows didn't make the cool cobalt blue streak across the screen anymore, all those struggles in Alterac Valley for not.

I've always thought that some type of permablesded wood could be great. Make it 0x but allow us to craft arrows from it and bam, there's one issue solved. The other as you mentioned is waiting to gather arrows out of reach which is maddening and both issues are big enough to turn people away from ranged entirely

[MotleyCrew]

Have several archers, it's really not that hard. And you don't need superduper gear to use it either.

It's not my favorite form of fighting in game, but I would never go sword and board over it.

So the arrows are out of your reach when you gather, it kind of makes sense if you miss. You would have to walk quite a distance to retrieve said arrow.

[Taernath]

Super bows are not the problem, they are a fix


The cash value you have placed on these items should never have to be taken into consideration for a company trying to improve it's product and grow it's customer base. If you or others are going to hold their feet to the fire over cash value, they may as well just say fuck it.

At the same time though, the people who have invested heavily into a self-ammo bow are going to be severely burned, as are the people who mastered fletching. Just about everyone who uses special ammo will be losing about +25 AS unless it's somehow baked into the bow itself, which would be doubtful. Ranged could definitely be improved, but removing fletching and ammo entirely in favor of self-ammo bows is like amputating your arm because of a papercut.

[Tenlaar]

No more arrows out of reach and a specific search command that will ONLY find arrows but finds them all with a single 3 to 5 second RT and I would say problem solved.

[Neveragain]

At the same time though, the people who have invested heavily into a self-ammo bow are going to be severely burned, as are the people who mastered fletching. Just about everyone who uses special ammo will be losing about +25 AS unless it's somehow baked into the bow itself, which would be doubtful. Ranged could definitely be improved, but removing fletching and ammo entirely in favor of self-ammo bows is like amputating your arm because of a papercut.

Again you're overlooking that the artisan skill would be going nowhere, you would just be crafting a different item. The whole +25 argument is nothing more than tweaking numbers.

To fucking bad they were retarded enough to make that kind of investment? A small handful of people is a shitty excuse to keep a shitty system. I'm willing to bet that vast majority are not going to drop that kind of investment to make a shitty combat system work for them, their just not going to use it.

[Tenlaar]

To fucking bad they were retarded enough to make that kind of investment? A small handful of people is a shitty excuse to keep a shitty system. I'm willing to bet that vast majority are not going to drop that kind of investment to make a shitty combat system work for them, their just not going to use it.

You are greatly exaggerating the detriment of having to use arrows with ranged combat. Ranged is not a shitty combat system because you don't think that your bow should require arrows.

[jumbodog]

The character I've played most is a ranged ranger. The ranged system is awesome. I mean it's awesome. It's realistic. Once you start aiming well is insanely powerful. Arrows can be annoying, but mastering fletching went a long way. You know what weeks is annoying? Going Yuri get your arrows from the target at the archery range, or when you miss... Fucking annoying. Sounds like gemstone nailed this mechanic though.

There are only a few improvements that I would really get behind:

single search command for arrows. When you have to search for five arrows.... Man.... That's terrible. Getting all of then at once would be great. When I lose my arrows at the range I go and find them all at once. I don't go get one, walk back to where I started, then go get another.

An auto bundling quiver that is player made is a good idea. But rangers should make quivers, not warriors. That makes a lot more sense to me. But as is, all of my ranged ammo management (except searching) and aiming is taken care of with short SF scripts, and I'm happy with it that way.

Blessing is annoying as hell. I just never hunt undead because it's so damned annoying. Doing ANYTHING to improve this would be a huge gameplay improvement. It might be nice to hunt undead for once with this guy.

[Taernath]

Again you're overlooking that the artisan skill would be going nowhere, you would just be crafting a different item. The whole +25 argument is nothing more than tweaking numbers.

You don't seriously expect Simu to allow players to craft 10x bows, do you? You can't do that in forging, anything above 4x or with special properties is a giant pain in the ass. Fletching gets away with it in part because there's a form of attrition and other mechanics involved.


To fucking bad they were retarded enough to make that kind of investment? A small handful of people is a shitty excuse to keep a shitty system. I'm willing to bet that vast majority are not going to drop that kind of investment to make a shitty combat system work for them, their just not going to use it.

LOL, yeah, fuck those people who spent time learning and mastering an in-game system!

[MotleyCrew]

The character I've played most is a ranged ranger.


single search command for arrows. When you have to search for five arrows.... Man.... That's terrible. Getting all of then at once would be great. When I lose my arrows at the range I go and find them all at once. I don't go get one, walk back to where I started, then go get another.

Use 609 to pop them all out.


An auto bundling quiver that is player made is a good idea. But rangers should make quivers, not warriors. That makes a lot more sense to me. But as is, all of my ranged ammo management (except searching) and aiming is taken care of with short SF scripts, and I'm happy with it that way.

Just GATHER the arrows and then PUT arrow in (whatever type) arrow in my (whatever) container and they are rebundled.

For example: gather w arrow \r put arrow in w arrow in my m quiv \r


Blessing is annoying as hell. I just never hunt undead because it's so damned annoying. Doing ANYTHING to improve this would be a huge gameplay improvement. It might be nice to hunt undead for once with this guy.

Bless 10 at a time and then bundle into 100. Gives you maximum number of blesses.

[Maerit]

I think the main problem with arrows is ignorance of how to use them.

1. GATHER is the verb to get all your arrows at once
2. Charging arrows with bless and eblade is all about casting at small bundles, then bundling the together
3. Your bow can be ensorcelled and flare when you fire
4. Ranged weapons combine the enchant of arrows and bow for a max of +50 which no other system enjoys so easily
5. A lot of super expensive bows are subject to disarm, and dangerous to use in areas with itchy / disarm mechanics
6. You can add weighting to your arrows with GOS sigil of major bane against hated foes

In the end ranged combat is fantastic, and the least expensive way to achieve high kill speed with 10x bonus and aimed shots. You pay a minor amount in the form of ammo maintenance to achieve this excellent advantage.

[jumbodog]

Use 609 to pop them all out.



Just GATHER the arrows and then PUT arrow in (whatever type) arrow in my (whatever) container and they are rebundled.

For example: gather w arrow \r put arrow in w arrow in my m quiv \r



Bless 10 at a time and then bundle into 100. Gives you maximum number of blesses.

Thanks, motleyCrew. I didn't think about blessing 10 at a time. I'll definitely be doing that from now on. Good tip.

As far as gathering, yeah, I have various mini-scripts setup to do just that (.ga for my regular ones, .gf for flared ones, and .gb for gathering the blessed ones when I was still messing with that). I think the point I wanted to make was that it seems to me to make the most sense to have rangers be the ones that make quivers. ;)

609... jeez.. of course. Nevermind. Thanks for the lifesaver!

[MotleyCrew]

Agreed on rangers making the quivers. Their guild is WAY overdue for some kind of skill.

They should be able to make bows too. :D

Hey Wyrom....hint hint

[Donquix]

you guys are like...SUPER susceptible to marketing gimmicks, aren't yout?

everyone in this thread: BUT ZOMG 10x GEAR

...the ranged system is designed around you having 10x gear. It's not the same as having 10x melee weapons. It doesn't make it zomg special. High end bows make the system less annoying, not more powerful. That's not a good critique of an implementation. This is a sidepoint to the OP's main complaint, but y'all seem stuck on it. If anything it's a detriment to the system, as it prevents high end gear from making it actually better. Or at least limits it to the scripted super high end gear (looking at you, spirit bow), it takes away any real meaningful vanilla but high enchant middleground.

In short, if everyone has 10x gear...no one has 10x gear.

http://i.imgur.com/yBjxjND.jpg

[jumbodog]

So your argument is if everyone has +50 AS. Then really we all have +0 AS?

[Whirlin]

you guys are like...SUPER susceptible to marketing gimmicks, aren't yout?

everyone in this thread: BUT ZOMG 10x GEAR

...the ranged system is designed around you having 10x gear. It's not the same as having 10x melee weapons. It doesn't make it zomg special. High end bows make the system less annoying, not more powerful. That's not a good critique of an implementation. This is a sidepoint to the OP's main complaint, but y'all seem stuck on it. If anything it's a detriment to the system, as it prevents high end gear from making it actually better. Or at least limits it to the scripted super high end gear (looking at you, spirit bow), it takes away any real meaningful vanilla but high enchant middleground.

In short, if everyone has 10x gear...no one has 10x gear.

Your comment would be correct if it wasn't also commenting on how ranged DS is typically lower than melee AS. The system was specifically not designed around the expectation of 10x gear. 10x gear is just another reason (on top of advantageous critical tables) why ranged is an advantageous weapon form. That's why in the earlier post, I recommended if arrow management is too hard for people, simply don't use e-bladed/fletched/blessed arrows, and just repurchase them each hunt.

[Donquix]

Your comment would be correct if it wasn't also commenting on how ranged DS is typically lower than melee AS. The system was specifically not designed around the expectation of 10x gear. 10x gear is just another reason (on top of advantageous critical tables) why ranged is an advantageous weapon form. That's why in the earlier post, I recommended if arrow management is too hard for people, simply don't use e-bladed/fletched/blessed arrows, and just repurchase them each hunt.

That isn't a surprise. Low ds, effectively free high enchants, combined with lowish damage but aimable weapons. The was the intended formula from the beginning.

The thing that makes ranged so good is the RT, not the damage/crits. Everyone (besides monks :D) can kill in one or two attacks. On the melee side, only ranged can do that in less than 5 seconds (haste effects obviously a separate consideration)

[Whirlin]

That isn't a surprise. Low ds, effectively free high enchants, combined with lowish damage but aimable weapons. The was the intended formula from the beginning.

The thing that makes ranged so good is the RT, not the damage/crits. Everyone (besides monks :D) can kill in one or two attacks. On the melee side, only ranged can do that in less than 5 seconds (haste effects obviously a separate consideration)
Nope, still disagree :p
I'd argue the piercing critical tables are the biggest bonus that help make up for the DF, and compile with the power of the low RT/Aiming costs!
Lowest instant-death critical of any critical table, and so low that it guarentees a critical kill on base critical rank 7 or above, whereas critical tables with a Tier 5 critical death requires rank 9 to be guaranteed.

[Donquix]

dead is dead :D

you also do sacrifice some versatility with ranged, which is a factor. On the things it works well on yes, it's about the most reliable way to kill there is or in the running. But there are a lot of things it's annoying or just outright impractical to use against. Other weapon classes, even those that rely on similar hunting methods (i.e. dagger ambush) can change weapons as needed. You can avoid those things but, that is an opportunity cost.

Look, i'm not saying ranged is bad or needs sweeping changes. It is really good. I think some small QoL changes could be done without majorly affecting either the existing item market or the system balance as a whole.

Honest to god if we just got rid of the "out of reach" bullshit... when I see that I have to resist the urge to frisbee my fucking laptop out the window.

[Whirlin]

dead is dead :D

you also do sacrifice some versatility with ranged, which is a factor. On the things it works well on yes, it's about the most reliable way to kill there is or in the running. But there are a lot of things it's annoying or just outright impractical to use against. Other weapon classes, even those that rely on similar hunting methods (i.e. dagger ambush) can change weapons as needed. You can avoid those things but, that is an opportunity cost.

Look, i'm not saying ranged is bad or needs sweeping changes. It is really good. I think some small QoL changes could be done without majorly affecting either the existing item market or the system balance as a whole.

Honest to god if we just got rid of the "out of reach" bullshit... when I see that I have to resist the urge to frisbee my fucking laptop out the window.
I'd only agree to remove the 'out of reach' bullshit if there area no critters in the room... That's really the only time it bothers me. I think it's validated if you're currently still fighting something to pick up the same arrow and keep shooting it at a critter.

I still find ranged to be so damn overpowered for most applications (except Reim due to arrow loss and requirement for magical arrows), that I think the benefits vastly outweigh the negatives, and that arrow management is the necessary evil to balance the OPness of the weapon form.

[Donquix]

yeah, i feel the same (out of reach gone if no hostile NPCs). I mean usually you're still pincushioning if there's any left anyway so meh.

[Gnomad]

Make a bundle of 0x arrows available off-the shelf that automatically refills itself. Blessable but not eblade-able. Easy arrow management but if you want better ones you gotta learn to use big boy/big girl arrows.


So your argument is if everyone has +50 AS. Then really we all have +0 AS?

Let me tell you about a spell called 425

[Neveragain]

I really think most of you are missing what I was suggesting and should reread my original post. I'm only trying to suggest two things, finding a way of fixing ammo issues with the least amount of code possible. As I mentioned I have never seen the code they use so I have to make assumptions based on what coding knowledge I have. Just raw logic suggests that not having ammo would require much less coding, I could be wrong. It's not like I hate ammo, it's a very cool concept on paper.

In my original post I also stated that I do like the ranged combat system, the ammo issues make it suck. The only reason I suggested being able to make ranged weapons was to replace fletching as to not screw over customers for the time they had invested in learning the skill. Again I'm making the assumption that converting fletching to making ranged weapons by editing and building on the existing code could be done, or maybe it would be easier to remake it, again I don't know.

If it's easier and it works out great by just removing the out of reach crap, great, problem solved. The easier the better.

[Tenlaar]

I can't imagine that it could possibly be easier to both re-code how bows work and completely overhaul the fletching system than it is to make the "out of reach" timer go to 0 if there is no hostile creature in the room (that should just be adding a check to the existing code) and make a search command that pulls out all arrows in the room.

[Gizmo]

I'd rather see the THROWN review come about FINALLY then a silly ammo lifestyle change

[Astray]

Fucking... make it so I don't have to hit 'GO ARROW' thirty goddamn times.

[Neveragain]

I can't imagine that it could possibly be easier to both re-code how bows work and completely overhaul the fletching system than it is to make the "out of reach" timer go to 0 if there is no hostile creature in the room (that should just be adding a check to the existing code) and make a search command that pulls out all arrows in the room.

Most likely not.

Though I disagree with it only being when there's no hostile creatures in the room. I understand realism, but the inconvenience is not worth it. Just like it would be inconvenient to be restricted to 3 or 4 arrows, which would be much more real.

P.S. Make that 1 arrow if you're lucky.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUG8UPsgE3U

[SashaFierce]

No more arrows out of reach and a specific search command that will ONLY find arrows but finds them all with a single 3 to 5 second RT and I would say problem solved.

That's not the kind of solution I would want as an archer.

[Neveragain]

I'd rather see the THROWN review come about FINALLY then a silly ammo lifestyle change

Thrown works fine. :bleh:

[Astray]

Thrown? Never heard of it!

[Tenlaar]

That's not the kind of solution I would want as an archer.

Thanks for the input, I guess?