2016 Election Prediction Thread

[Back]

Only because California is filled with douche bags with zero self awareness.

So rather than try to understand how your statement seemed ignorant with the words you used not to mention the factual evidence proving it bizarrely incorrect you decide to irrationally bash a faceless group of people in an attempt to justify it?

[Androidpk]

So rather than try to understand how your statement seemed ignorant with the words you used not to mention the factual evidence proving it bizarrely incorrect you decide to irrationally bash a faceless group of people in an attempt to justify it?

Yes.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I voted third party. It pleases me enormously that this is a cause of tears for time4fun. Stop trying to ruin my good time, Gelly.

Did you vote for Rocky De La Fuente?!

[RichardCranium]

Did you vote for Rocky De La Fuente?!

Lorenzo Von Matterhorn.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Lorenzo Von Matterhorn.

Yeah but Rocky really ran ;p

[Androidpk]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cwy_92NWEAAwyqe.jpg

[Parkbandit]

Don't try to understand it, it isn't plausible. And since Jill Stein won fewer votes, I think the third party candidates were a statistically insignificant net loss for Trump.

Exactly like I was thinking. It made zero sense.


The biggest take away and only real mandate in this election, (which I said before), is that Americans are tired of business as usual in Washington and want change. They want results. It's easy to forget that the Dems were only 3% points from having an outsider candidate as well. It will be interesting to see what the response is. The real difficulty is that a lot of people who want change aren't really sure what they want, they just know what they don't want, while an even bigger issue is that the ideals are piling up to the far right and the far left, with little viable middle ground. Guess we'll all see what happens.

Your lack of tears makes me sad. Why can't you post like Briarfox? That guy knows how to turn on the waterworks!

[Parkbandit]

Odds are those people would simply have elected to stay home.

There were enough Jill Stein votes, on the other hand, to stop Trump in WI and MI. Those people who threw their votes away on a candidate they KNEW couldn't be elected should be ashamed of themselves.

Wait..

so in your head, if Johnson wasn't on the ballot, the people who voted for him would have stayed home.. but if Stein wasn't on the ballet, those people would have ALL voted for Clinton?

You should run your logic by an adult before posting.. you might look less retarded.

[Tgo01]

Wait..

so in your head, if Johnson wasn't on the ballot, the people who voted for him would have stayed home.. but if Stein wasn't on the ballet, those people would have ALL voted for Clinton?

You should run your logic by an adult before posting.. you might look less retarded.

It's how they rationalize that Nader cost Gore the election with a whole 2% of the vote, but Perot didn't cost Bush the election even though Perot got something like 20% of the vote.

In usual Democrat fashion they look for ANY excuse to say why their candidate lost, other than, you know, their candidate just being the worse candidate.

Kind of like they will scream at the top of their lungs that we don't need voter ID laws because our elections are all open and fair and there isn't a need for voter ID laws but then they will turn around and insist the only reason the Republicans have maintained a majority in the House for so long is because Republicans have cheated via gerrymandering.

[Parkbandit]

Did you vote for Rocky De La Fuente?!

I
wanted to punch that douchebag in the face. His circus show sign on I4 slowed retarded drivers as I was going from Tampa to Orlando.

[Gelston]

It's how they rationalize that Nader cost Gore the election with a whole 2% of the vote, but Perot didn't cost Bush the election even though Perot got something like 20% of the vote.

In usual Democrat fashion they look for ANY excuse to say why their candidate lost, other than, you know, their candidate just being the worse candidate.

Kind of like they will scream at the top of their lungs that we don't need voter ID laws because our elections are all open and fair and there isn't a need for voter ID laws but then they will turn around and insist the only reason the Republicans have maintained a majority in the House for so long is because Republicans have cheated via gerrymandering.

Dude, she has POLLS somewhere that prove her correct okay?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I
wanted to punch that douchebag in the face. His circus show sign on I4 slowed retarded drivers as I was going from Tampa to Orlando.

Looked like a mob boss from the 40's to me...

[Jeril]

No. This is about electing a President. Show your support in pre-election polls, rally/post/protest for your candidate beforehand, but the second you are faced with a choice between the two candidates who CAN win and those that have no chance, you need to treat your decision as it actually is- Candidate 1 or Candidate 2. It's not the time to play make believe and pretend like your choices at that point are anything other than what they are. Your principles are not more important than the lived experiences of other people. This holds true for Johnson supporters and for Stein supporters.

In my lifetime, twice now a bunch of overly privileged progressives have handed the Country over to everything they hate just so they could "make a point". If you believe in your principles, then you do what it takes to make them happen. To be blunt, you're hurting third party candidates if you do otherwise. It'll be a long time before the Green party can show its face again- just like last time it helped get a Republican into office without winning the popular vote.

And we all saw how that ended.

You follow that line of thought and you end up without any principles, honey.

[Tisket]

Did you vote for Rocky De La Fuente?!

I voted for a Disney character as a write in.

[Tgo01]

Dude, she has POLLS somewhere that prove her correct okay?

:rofl:

Oh yeah, how can I forget, 100k people voted early in Florida in two districts that went heavily for Obama in 2012, so obviously that meant Hillary was going to win Florida.

But since Hillary didn't win Florida well then obviously JILL STEIN!!!! And racists! And sexists!!!! froth froth

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Alice?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/e6/44/b3/e644b360d0c6d99f9243c626485f4db8.jpg

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/8a/a6/fd/8aa6fd7340acfbcf73497376761930f7.jpg

[Tisket]

Alice?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/e6/44/b3/e644b360d0c6d99f9243c626485f4db8.jpg

Jesus, is it too late to change my vote?

[Jeril]

Jesus, is it too late to change my vote?

That's what I was thinking.

[Tisket]

A cartoon has made me reconsider my sexuality.

lolol

[Parkbandit]

:rofl:

Oh yeah, how can I forget, 100k people voted early in Florida in two districts that went heavily for Obama in 2012, so obviously that meant Hillary was going to win Florida.

But since Hillary didn't win Florida well then obviously JILL STEIN!!!! And racists! And sexists!!!! froth froth

Yea, she didn't realize that Obama was up like 180K in early voting in the same counties... so essentially Hillary was 80K in the hole.

Fucking JILL FUCKING STEIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jhynnifer]

That's what I was thinking.

You weren't thinking. You were acting. Wash your hands after, please!

[Jeril]

A cartoon has made me reconsider my sexuality.

lolol

ROFL.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

You should look into Zenescope comics (Zenescope.com) for all your wildly hot psuedo disney characters in comic format. Comic's aren't bad actually, if you are into that sort of thing. I've a couple issues, but never collected em but if I was to collect again I might look at them.

[Parkbandit]

A cartoon has made me reconsider my sexuality.

lolol

https://media.giphy.com/media/eKDp7xvUdbCrC/giphy.gif

http://imagesmtv-a.akamaihd.net/uri/mgid:file:http:shared:mtv.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/tumblr_lvn8x8byy71r3zat8-1425498592.gif?quality=.8&height=155&width=250

[Jeril]

You weren't thinking. You were acting. Wash your hands after, please!

Maybe after my nap.

[Jhynnifer]

Maybe after my nap.

You're going to wake up stuck to your pillow.

[Androidpk]

http://imagesmtv-a.akamaihd.net/uri/mgid:file:http:shared:mtv.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/tumblr_lvn8x8byy71r3zat8-1425498592.gif?quality=.8&height=155&width=250

i thought this was my line?

[Jhynnifer]

You should look into Zenescope comics (Zenescope.com) for all your wildly hot psuedo disney characters in comic format. Comic's aren't bad actually, if you are into that sort of thing. I've a couple issues, but never collected em but if I was to collect again I might look at them.

Why when I can pick up any issue of Lady Mechanika and not only reconsider my sexuality but also a sexual fetish for all things mechanical?

[Androidpk]

Why when I can pick up any issue of Lady Mechanika and not only reconsider my sexuality but also a sexual fetish for all things mechanical?

https://media.giphy.com/media/l41lN1QJKXM3yL5BK/giphy.gif

[Jhynnifer]

https://media.giphy.com/media/l41lN1QJKXM3yL5BK/giphy.gif

/pants

Also.... this actually turned out to be a decent read, and shed a new light on things for me.

https://theintercept.com/2016/11/09/democrats-trump-and-the-ongoing-dangerous-refusal-to-learn-the-lesson-of-brexit/

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

If you ever thought media bias doesn't exist, look at virtually every headline and article today and tell me that with a straight face. You'd think the end of the world is scheduled for January 20th.

[rolfard]

Interesting article

[Jeril]

/pants

Also.... this actually turned out to be a decent read, and shed a new light on things for me.

https://theintercept.com/2016/11/09/democrats-trump-and-the-ongoing-dangerous-refusal-to-learn-the-lesson-of-brexit/

I don't think we are at a full boil just yet. I am guessing next election will push it further in that direction, but we'll see.

[Back]

/pants

Also.... this actually turned out to be a decent read, and shed a new light on things for me.

https://theintercept.com/2016/11/09/democrats-trump-and-the-ongoing-dangerous-refusal-to-learn-the-lesson-of-brexit/

Good comic that you mentioned earlier and good opinion piece quoted here.

[Allereli]

I'm very excited for Melania Trump's campaign against cyber bullying, I think it sounds wonderful.

[Androidpk]

Sad to see that Maggie Hassan won her race in NH.

[Methais]

No. This is about electing a President. Show your support in pre-election polls, rally/post/protest for your candidate beforehand, but the second you are faced with a choice between the two candidates who CAN win and those that have no chance, you need to treat your decision as it actually is- Candidate 1 or Candidate 2. It's not the time to play make believe and pretend like your choices at that point are anything other than what they are. Your principles are not more important than the lived experiences of other people. This holds true for Johnson supporters and for Stein supporters.

In my lifetime, twice now a bunch of overly privileged progressives have handed the Country over to everything they hate just so they could "make a point". If you believe in your principles, then you do what it takes to make them happen. To be blunt, you're hurting third party candidates if you do otherwise. It'll be a long time before the Green party can show its face again- just like last time it helped get a Republican into office without winning the popular vote.

And we all saw how that ended.

You're just mad because a woman didn't win.

Sexist. Racist too.

[Dendum]

Sad to see that Maggie Hassan won her race in NH.

I dont follow NH senate races whata wrong with Hassan?

[Trump]

It could've been anybody ; the damn ballot could read...

( )Donald J Trump (R) and Michael Pence (R)

( ) Dying Squirrel (D) and Rabid Raccoon (D)

...And the Democrats would've locked it last night. It was Liberal hubris that led to this, they got cocky with Obama so the DNC was "sure lets get some pussy in there while we're at it..." Did not end well.

[Back]

As an American who voted for Clinton I am not terribly worried about a Trump presidency.

Here is why:

I'm white.

I survived the Bush years. Almost everything Bush did in his 8 years I was totally against. Almost everything. Mainly it was the wars. I liked his immigration and immigrant policies. There was the dismantling of the budget surplus, housing bubble, and the market crash because of the policies from that era and it hurt me yet I'm still economically viable despite it.

I suspect that, with Obama and every president who promises things to get into office, there is a reality that they all must face. Things we the public cannot see. The briefings that Trump is getting right now are going to sober him up to the reality of the office of the POTUS' real responsibility and reach of power. Even with a Republican controlled Congress and Executive branch our political system has balanced power between the three branches that includes the minority party to even then have a say.

Four years is not a long time. I suspect we will be better for all of this in 2020.

[Methais]

I'm white.

O RLY?


I am a retard. I'm disabled. I'm poor. I'm black. I'm gay. I'm transgender. I'm a woman.

[Tgo01]

O RLY?

Methais wins the Internet.

[Neveragain]

If the Dems ran their primary system the same way as republicans, I'm fairly sure Bernie would have been in there and it would have been an entirely different presidential race all together. If the Dems wanted even a remote chance of retaining the white house, they should have read the writing on the wall and done away with their very undemocratic superdelegate system. That in and of itself almost ensures a typical Washington politician is going to get the nomination and they should have known that even most Democrats are tired of that.

Face it, the Democrats ignorantly spent the last 8 years attacking their base. It should in no way be shocking that they lost Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania. Democrats committed suicide and they are still holding the gun against their head.

[drauz]

Yeah and people actually have the gall to say they are "taking our jobs". Not a fan of min. wage, but I am a fan of honest wages for honest work - that needs to get addressed.

They would just make them contract employees. That is how some companies get around the min. wage limit. They would still make the same they are now even if they did enforce the laws.

[drauz]

Actually not that hard if they use a legal means to do so such as Western Union, make them have some sort of ID to prove they are here legally and to send money and if you are sending it to Mexico, Central or South America, then charge a fee to do so. Pretty simple actually. The one thing it cannot capture is when they use the means that is more common in the Middle East where they give money to someone here in the US and someone there gives money to the person it is being sent to.

And a legal person would just do it for them at half the cost. Look at that, you're already creating jobs.

[time4fun]

As an American who voted for Clinton I am not terribly worried about a Trump presidency.

Here is why:

I'm white.

I survived the Bush years. Almost everything Bush did in his 8 years I was totally against. Almost everything. Mainly it was the wars. I liked his immigration and immigrant policies. There was the dismantling of the budget surplus, housing bubble, and the market crash because of the policies from that era and it hurt me yet I'm still economically viable despite it.

I suspect that, with Obama and every president who promises things to get into office, there is a reality that they all must face. Things we the public cannot see. The briefings that Trump is getting right now are going to sober him up to the reality of the office of the POTUS' real responsibility and reach of power. Even with a Republican controlled Congress and Executive branch our political system has balanced power between the three branches that includes the minority party to even then have a say.

Four years is not a long time. I suspect we will be better for all of this in 2020.

Lucky.

I have a brother who has lived here most of his life. He's here illegally from the Philippines, and today I sat around and wondered how many more times I'm going to get to see him. If Trump does what he promised- will my brother be forced to leave? He barely knows the Philippines- this is his home. Where would he even go? He barely knows the family over there. And I know some of you here can't wait for my brother to leave because you feel like he's taking something from you, and he deserves it. And some of you will just find this so hilarious. But he's my brother. And I love him. And now I find myself wondering if in two years, he'll be at Christmas with us.

A colleague of mine showed up to work on the edge of tears today. Mike Pence is already talking about the LGBTQ rights he's looking forward to dismantling, and he's one of the most anti-gay elected officials in the country. He's responsible for one of the freedom to discrimination/freedom of religion bills. Her sister called her up sobbing, terrified of what this is going to mean for her. I broke down too- what does this mean for my other brother who happens to be gay? What about all of my friends?

I get how this is some major political victory for some people here. And how it's just hysterically funny to others. And I get how some of you just feel like this is no big deal- because for you it may not be.

But for some of us- this is beyond terrifying. I'm so scared for my family that I'm literally sick to my stomach.

[Tgo01]

Lucky.

White privilege strikes again!


I have a brother who has lived here most of his life. He's here illegally from the Philippines, and today I sat around and wondered how many more times I'm going to get to see him. If Trump does what he promised- will my brother be forced to leave? He barely knows the Philippines- this is his home. Where would he even go? He barely knows the family over there. And I know some of you here can't wait for my brother to leave because you feel like he's taking something from you, and he deserves it. And some of you will just find this so hilarious. But he's my brother. And I love him. And now I find myself wondering if in two years, he'll be at Christmas with us.

I always wonder about stories like this; he's lived here most of his life? Why hasn't he tried to gain legal residence/citizenship during all that time? Or is it just easier to claim to be a victim your whole life?


A colleague of mine showed up to work on the edge of tears today. Mike Pence is already talking about the LGBTQ rights he's looking forward to dismantling, and he's one of the most anti-gay elected officials in the country. He's responsible for one of the freedom to discrimination/freedom of religion bills. Her sister called her up in tears, terrified of what this is going to mean for her. I broke down too- what does this mean for my other brother who happens to be gay? What about all of my friends?

The vice president has like the least amount of power in the whole country. I probably wield more power than Mike Pence. Your friends and family really need to get a grip.


But for some of us- this is beyond terrifying. I'm so scared for my family that I'm literally sick to my stomach.

Well yeah, we literally elected Hitler and you're the wrong race/religion/<insert whatever victim status you claim to be here>

[Stumplicker]

The vice president has like the least amount of power in the whole country. I probably wield more power than Mike Pence. Your friends and family really need to get a grip.


Nothing to say for or against the other parts of what you said, but there's a very real threat that the vice president can and will wield power. With Trump, that makes 45 US presidents. 8 of them have died in office. 4 of natural causes. 4 of assassination. For the mathematically disinclined, 8/45 makes 17.7%. For as polarizing a figure to be in the front as Donald Trump is, and being an* old dude, as most presidents are, there's a very real chance that Pence does take the reigns at some point. Not a huge chance, but enough that someone worried about Pence's stance on things can legitimately worry about him.

* - Corrected spelling error.

[Parkbandit]

Lucky.

I have a brother who has lived here most of his life. He's here illegally from the Philippines, and today I sat around and wondered how many more times I'm going to get to see him. If Trump does what he promised- will my brother be forced to leave? He barely knows the Philippines- this is his home. Where would he even go? He barely knows the family over there. And I know some of you here can't wait for my brother to leave because you feel like he's taking something from you, and he deserves it. And some of you will just find this so hilarious. But he's my brother. And I love him. And now I find myself wondering if in two years, he'll be at Christmas with us.

A colleague of mine showed up to work on the edge of tears today. Mike Pence is already talking about the LGBTQ rights he's looking forward to dismantling, and he's one of the most anti-gay elected officials in the country. He's responsible for one of the freedom to discrimination/freedom of religion bills. Her sister called her up sobbing, terrified of what this is going to mean for her. I broke down too- what does this mean for my other brother who happens to be gay? What about all of my friends?

I get how this is some major political victory for some people here. And how it's just hysterically funny to others. And I get how some of you just feel like this is no big deal- because for you it may not be.

But for some of us- this is beyond terrifying. I'm so scared for my family that I'm literally sick to my stomach.

You sound like a real piece of shit sister to be honest. He's lived here his whole life illegally and you've just shrugged your shoulders and said "Ain't my problem".

If you are as rich as you claim and as well connected, it would literally take almost no effort on your selfish part to get him legalized.

I hope he's deported... because it would be your fault.

And you actually crying today over a political election literally made my day.

Thank you.

[drauz]

If the consequence of their vote was getting Trump elected with control over the Legislative Branch and incredible power over the Judicial branch while bringing down liberal wrath on third party candidates- then they have accomplished the opposite of their vision.

They indulged in their fantasy, and the rest of us are paying for it. You can justify that on principle all you would like, but that is the lived reality.

You are laying the blame in the wrong place. You should be mad at the Clinton campaign, they fucked this up so bad its not even funny. She lost Pennsylvania where she put a lot of effort in the final days. She lost Wisconsin because she didn't visit once since her primary win. She had to many rallies with "A listers" and assumed because people were excited about X person, they were excited about her. Even without the Green Party she would have lost in states she was expected to win.

Not to mention the shitty Primary system that democrats have, they have made it un-democratic. I really believe Sanders could have run away with this. He had the energy and enthusiasm from his base that could have matched Trumps. Instead because of this stupid system from day one she had all these votes for her that shouldn't be announced until much later in the primaries. People jumped on the bandwagon and basically fucked themselves out of the White House.

You have no one to legitimately blame but your own party.

[Tgo01]

Nothing to say for or against the other parts of what you said, but there's a very real threat that the vice president can and will wield power. With Trump, that makes 45 US presidents. 8 of them have died in office. 4 of natural causes. 4 of assassination. For the mathematically disinclined, 8/45 makes 17.7%. For as polarizing a figure to be in the front as Donald Trump is, and being an* old dude, as most presidents are, there's a very real chance that Pence does take the reigns at some point. Not a huge chance, but enough that someone worried about Pence's stance on things can legitimately worry about him.

* - Corrected spelling error.

That's not how time4fun illustrated her fears though. She said Pence is already looking forward to which rights he can dismantle, this would mean he's already looking forward to Trump dying/being impeached so he can take over and then start dismantling rights. That's a bit of a stretch I'd say.

Either that or the fear is Pence honestly thinks Trump gives a single shit about his opinion. Trump strikes me as the type of person who chose a running mate simply because he had to, he probably would have did the whole thing solo if he could, I highly doubt Pence is going to be in his ear about things.

[Neveragain]

I have a brother who has lived here most of his life. He's here illegally from the Philippines, and today I sat around and wondered how many more times I'm going to get to see him. If Trump does what he promised- will my brother be forced to leave? He barely knows the Philippines- this is his home. Where would he even go? He barely knows the family over there. And I know some of you here can't wait for my brother to leave because you feel like he's taking something from you, and he deserves it. And some of you will just find this so hilarious. But he's my brother. And I love him. And now I find myself wondering if in two years, he'll be at Christmas with us.

If America is this evil actor on the worlds stage, why the fuck would you want your brother to live here?

What's the opposite of the word liberal?

Answer: Logic

[Stumplicker]

That's not how time4fun illustrated her fears though. She said Pence is already looking forward to which rights he can dismantle, this would mean he's already looking forward to Trump dying/being impeached so he can take over and then start dismantling rights. That's a bit of a stretch I'd say.

Either that or the fear is Pence honestly thinks Trump gives a single shit about his opinion. Trump strikes me as the type of person who chose a running mate simply because he had to, he probably would have did the whole thing solo if he could, I highly doubt Pence is going to be in his ear about things.

I don't think even Pence thinks his opinion is valued. Trump isn't a "God & Guns" type of guy, so he needed a way to secure the religious vote. That's what VP picks usually are, as you know: a way to reach a voting base your candidate otherwise wouldn't reach. Regardless of what time4fun did or didn't illustrate, I personally, even having voted for Trump, am a bit scared of the possibility of a Pence presidency, even if it's only 17.7% historically. Or if I'm being technical, 45 counts Grover Cleveland twice since he split terms, so the realistic number is 18.2 (8/44). The guy has some seriously backwards views.

[Warriorbird]

There's a broad belief that Pence will be running domestic policy/the country because of the VP offer made to Kasich. That contributes to peoples' belief that Pence will erode gay rights and be Trump's tool to dismantle abortion.

I tend to think Trump won't let that much go to his Vice President but who knows?

[drauz]

Lucky.

I have a brother who has lived here most of his life. He's here illegally from the Philippines, and today I sat around and wondered how many more times I'm going to get to see him. If Trump does what he promised- will my brother be forced to leave? He barely knows the Philippines- this is his home. Where would he even go? He barely knows the family over there. And I know some of you here can't wait for my brother to leave because you feel like he's taking something from you, and he deserves it. And some of you will just find this so hilarious. But he's my brother. And I love him. And now I find myself wondering if in two years, he'll be at Christmas with us.

A colleague of mine showed up to work on the edge of tears today. Mike Pence is already talking about the LGBTQ rights he's looking forward to dismantling, and he's one of the most anti-gay elected officials in the country. He's responsible for one of the freedom to discrimination/freedom of religion bills. Her sister called her up sobbing, terrified of what this is going to mean for her. I broke down too- what does this mean for my other brother who happens to be gay? What about all of my friends?

I get how this is some major political victory for some people here. And how it's just hysterically funny to others. And I get how some of you just feel like this is no big deal- because for you it may not be.

But for some of us- this is beyond terrifying. I'm so scared for my family that I'm literally sick to my stomach.

All ribbing aside, I would recommend you start the process for your brother. Better late than never. Does your family also live in CA? If so, I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill regarding the LGBTQ. Either way, I hope you can figure out something so that your family can stay here legally.

[Stolis]

You know what's gonna be real funny? When all the fear and bitching and moaning from the Democrats turns out to be all for nothing and literally their rights are just fine. Just calm it the fuck down. Go to work, continue to work, and go about your normal lives. The left's lived through GWB for 8 years. The right's lived through Clinton and BHO for 8 years each. The world didn't end, and it's not going to now.

[Methais]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grD_IINiH9c

[time4fun]

I don't think even Pence thinks his opinion is valued. Trump isn't a "God & Guns" type of guy, so he needed a way to secure the religious vote. That's what VP picks usually are, as you know: a way to reach a voting base your candidate otherwise wouldn't reach. Regardless of what time4fun did or didn't illustrate, I personally, even having voted for Trump, am a bit scared of the possibility of a Pence presidency, even if it's only 17.7% historically. Or if I'm being technical, 45 counts Grover Cleveland twice since he split terms, so the realistic number is 18.2 (8/44). The guy has some seriously backwards views.

I'd love for you to be right, but you're assuming a lot here. The GOP controls two of the three branches of government, and they have already made their intent clear. It's asking a lot of someone to say "Oh don't worry about it, I doubt anything will happen."

I get that for you this is an interesting academic discussion. The consequences if you're wrong don't fall on your shoulders- they fall on me and my family. (And a lot of others) My family isn't math. We're not a fraction or a probability. My brothers are people. They've got a lot to lose and people promising that they'll lose it. The fact that there is a credible risk here means they've already lost some of it.

You look at some of the gross, soulless responses to my family's situation. And yeah, we know that some of these people here are just genuinely bad people. But there's a whole country of them out there- many of whom want these things to happen. And even more who don't really care either way and will just let them happen. (And have)

Anyone in our situation would worry. We'd be insane not to.

[Gelston]

Go to work, continue to work.

rofl

[Wrathbringer]

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Please, keep posting.

[Stolis]

Since I'm just enjoying this too much, I'll enjoy this as well. My first negative rep

"Stressing the "HUSSEIN!" to imply Muslim status is so laughably ridiculous. -Warriorbird"

Did I stress the Hussein anywhere? No? I just gave his initials like I did for GWB because that's what his initials? Oh, ok then. Have a magical day.

https://media.giphy.com/media/Fml0fgAxVx1eM/giphy.gif

[Fallen]

Some questions I have and haven't researched heavily.

1. The Supreme Court. Are most on Trump's list of the Scalia variety, or are there some that could be considered more moderate? What is the Democrat's ability to influence the process?

2. Executive orders. What EOs is Trump expected to pass in the first few days? Can he effectively deconstruct Obamacare without making use of Congress? If so, what would be left in its place?

3. Trade deals and mergers. Can Trump pull us out of NAFTA and similar established trade deals without the approval of Congress? Can Trump block mergers like ATT/Time Warner directly, or by appointing people to positions who will?

4. Military/Environmental Agreements. What is Trump's direct power over NATO? Will he have time/authority to pull out of the Paris agreement before it goes into effect? Can he change existing agreements of either sort without the authorization of Congress?

[~Rocktar~]

Full control isn't a guarantee of action or radical change. Just look what didn't happen in the Liberal/Democrat controlled 20 months. You boneheads could not even pass a budget and you passed a health care tax/law/enslavement that was so bad even the writers said they were hoping the people were stupid enough to not read it in order to get it passed. Remember the famous contradiction of "I will have the most transparent administration ever" and "You will have to pass it to see what's in it"?

And I can hear your retort about people liking Progressive ideas and that is true, until you add in the cost to them for the idea. Had you told people their health care in general would get more expensive at a rate faster than inflation along with substantial premium increases across the board to get Obamacare, I am pretty sure that it would not have passed. Keep in mind that it STILL hasn't been fully implemented because Obama illegally waived and refused to implement the full penalties and taxes.

Someone is insane in this equation alright and it's you Liberals/Progressives/Socialists.

[Stumplicker]

I'd love for you to be right, but you're assuming a lot here. The GOP controls two of the three branches of government, and they have already made their intent clear. It's asking a lot of someone to say "Oh don't worry about it, I doubt anything will happen."

I get that for you this is an interesting academic discussion. The consequences if you're wrong don't fall on your shoulders- they fall on me and my family. (And a lot of others) My family isn't math. We're not a fraction or a probability. My brothers are people. They've got a lot to lose and people promising that they'll lose it. The fact that there is a credible risk here means they've already lost some of it.

You look at some of the gross, soulless responses to my family's situation. And yeah, we know that some of these people here are just genuinely bad people. But there's a whole country of them out there- many of whom want these things to happen. And even more who don't really care either way and will just let them happen. (And have)

Anyone in our situation would worry. We'd be insane not to.

You're also assuming a lot of things. It's not an entirely academic debate for me. My daughter is a mixed race. Two of my cousins are homosexual. A few of my good friends and former colleagues of mine are immigrants, from back in the mid 70s all the way up to the early 2000s.

That said, yes, the GOP does have a large, nearly unprecedented amount of control right now, but "The GOP" is not solely comprised of Mike Pence clones. There are a wide range of conservative viewpoints, and to varying degrees. If hypothetically, Trump died tomorrow, Pence became President, and immediately put to a vote a law that would make it illegal to be gay, and offenders would all be rounded up and put into re-education camps, I am confident it's not something that would pass. Republican representatives are people. Some of them have the same views as Pence, but enough of them are fiscal conservatives rather than religious conservatives, or are not demonic entities bent on the eradication of a group of people, or just have a different viewpoint on how to deal with the situation.

Am I afraid that Pence could do some damage with his views and level of Republican power if he were to take the big seat? Absolutely. He would stand to be able to undo a lot of the progress we've made over the last 50 years. But to lump every Republican into that a very narrow viewpoint of proponents of the worst possible scenario would be a mistake. Conservative is not Conservative. There are a lot of different viewpoints within any given political party.

[Parkbandit]

There's a broad belief that Pence will be running domestic policy/the country because of the VP offer made to Kasich. That contributes to peoples' belief that Pence will erode gay rights and be Trump's tool to dismantle abortion.

I tend to think Trump won't let that much go to his Vice President but who knows?

Trump doesn't seem like the sort of person to let someone else dictate anything to him.

And Trump was a blue blooded liberal what.. like 5 years ago?

Come on man.. there is so much bigger things to be afraid of.

[time4fun]

All ribbing aside, I would recommend you start the process for your brother. Better late than never. Does your family also live in CA? If so, I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill regarding the LGBTQ. Either way, I hope you can figure out something so that your family can stay here legally.

We've been through it twice. Once when I was younger- too young to know. My piece of shit step dad needed to sign the paperwork- which he did for my sisters. But he just couldn't really get around to it because he's a horrible person.

My mother and my brother tried a second time when Jopet was an adult, but- at the time at least- he was told that in order to start the process he had to leave the country and live in the Philippines to wait for the paperwork to process and then enter the country legally. It can take years for that. I don't know a lot of the details around it. Maybe it was because they had started once before and never finished? Maybe he's been arrested and isn't telling me? My family gets really vague when I've asked. Honestly, they didn't even tell me he was here illegally until after college. For obvious reasons, they try not to talk about it too openly. My family is from Arizona, which doesn't help.

I've offered a few times to start it back up, but he doesn't want to have to leave for a few years to live in a country he doesn't know anything about. He's in denial, but I can tell he's freaking out inside. I'm going to call some attorneys to try to see if anything has changed since he tried to get his green card a few years back.

It's just a really bad situation. Have I mentioned that he has Type II Diabetes and is on Obamacare? I haven't even gotten to the point where I can process that yet. Though at least in that case, I can pay for his insurance. I'm not sure what we would do if he were deported.

I feel so useless.

[Parkbandit]

I'd love for you to be right, but you're assuming a lot here. The GOP controls two of the three branches of government, and they have already made their intent clear. It's asking a lot of someone to say "Oh don't worry about it, I doubt anything will happen."

I get that for you this is an interesting academic discussion. The consequences if you're wrong don't fall on your shoulders- they fall on me and my family. (And a lot of others) My family isn't math. We're not a fraction or a probability. My brothers are people. They've got a lot to lose and people promising that they'll lose it. The fact that there is a credible risk here means they've already lost some of it.

You look at some of the gross, soulless responses to my family's situation. And yeah, we know that some of these people here are just genuinely bad people. But there's a whole country of them out there- many of whom want these things to happen. And even more who don't really care either way and will just let them happen. (And have)

Anyone in our situation would worry. We'd be insane not to.

Can't you take responsibility for anything at all?

Who put you into this position? YOU DID! You broke the law and now when someone gets elected and runs on enforcing those laws, you cry victim.

He's been here most of his life.. and now you decide you have a problem?

It's not like you suddenly realize today that you've been breaking the law. This could have been taken care of years ago.. but because you are a selfish/lazy/willfully ignorant big sister.. now it's become a problem?

Sorry if I can't possibly feel badly for you for the position you put yourself into.

[Warriorbird]

Trump doesn't seem like the sort of person to let someone else dictate anything to him.

And Trump was a blue blooded liberal what.. like 5 years ago?

Come on man.. there is so much bigger things to be afraid of.

I'm just conveying the flavor of other people's freakout. Me, there's other things on my mind.

[time4fun]

You're also assuming a lot of things. It's not an entirely academic debate for me. My daughter is a mixed race. Two of my cousins are homosexual. A few of my good friends and former colleagues of mine are immigrants, from back in the mid 70s all the way up to the early 2000s.

That said, yes, the GOP does have a large, nearly unprecedented amount of control right now, but "The GOP" is not solely comprised of Mike Pence clones. There are a wide range of conservative viewpoints, and to varying degrees. If hypothetically, Trump died tomorrow, Pence became President, and immediately put to a vote a law that would make it illegal to be gay, and offenders would all be rounded up and put into re-education camps, I am confident it's not something that would pass. Republican representatives are people. Some of them have the same views as Pence, but enough of them are fiscal conservatives rather than religious conservatives, or are not demonic entities bent on the eradication of a group of people, or just have a different viewpoint on how to deal with the situation.

Am I afraid that Pence could do some damage with his views and level of Republican power if he were to take the big seat? Absolutely. He would stand to be able to undo a lot of the progress we've made over the last 50 years. But to lump every Republican into that a very narrow viewpoint of proponents of the worst possible scenario would be a mistake. Conservative is not Conservative. There are a lot of different viewpoints within any given political party.

I wonder if you would have felt differently if your daughter were lesbian. Maybe yes, maybe no. Maybe it was easy to take risks with your cousin's lives. And maybe it would be just as easy to take risks with your daughter's. I don't know.

I just know that I wouldn't take those risks with my brothers' lives. I can't imagine looking them in the eye and saying "I'm going to do something that only has a 1/8 chance of ruining your life, so I don't want you to worry." I can't imagine sleeping soundly, feeling reassured by that. At some point I'm going to have to though, right?

You say that these things won't pass, but Pence has made a career out of passing them. They don't need a unanimous vote to make these things happen. And there are quite a few things that can be done via executive order.

And even if nothing ever happens- my family is going to live in fear of it for at least the next four years. My brother shouldn't have to live that way. I'm glad you and your daughter don't have to worry about it. And I'm glad you don't have to worry that she'll be forced to leave her home and live in a place she barely knows. But my family does have to worry about those things.

And it's not like we get to live our lives joyously up until the moment that some of these horrible things- that again Trump and Pence have promised to do, repeatedly- happen. It's not like life is just wonderful with this hanging over your head.

Saying "Oh I'm sure when Trump said he'd forcibly deport all illegal immigrants he didn't mean it", or "Oh, yeah Pence fought to make sure people had the right to discrimination against gay people and is saying he wants it to be a national law, but honestly, what're the odds?" doesn't make life better. It doesn't make my family feel safe. It kinda just make the person who is saying it feel better.

[Parkbandit]

We've been through it twice. Once when I was younger- too young to know. My piece of shit step dad needed to sign the paperwork- which he did for my sisters. But he just couldn't really get around to it because he's a horrible person.

My mother and my brother tried a second time when Jopet was an adult, but- at the time at least- he was told that in order to start the process he had to leave the country and live in the Philippines to wait for the paperwork to process and then enter the country legally. It can take years for that. I don't know a lot of the details around it. Maybe it was because they had started once before and never finished? Maybe he's been arrested and isn't telling me? My family gets really vague when I've asked. Honestly, they didn't even tell me he was here illegally until after college. For obvious reasons, they try not to talk about it too openly. My family is from Arizona, which doesn't help.

I've offered a few times to start it back up, but he doesn't want to have to leave for a few years to live in a country he doesn't know anything about. He's in denial, but I can tell he's freaking out inside. I'm going to call some attorneys to try to see if anything has changed since he tried to get his green card a few years back.

It's just a really bad situation. Have I mentioned that he has Type II Diabetes and is on Obamacare? I haven't even gotten to the point where I can process that yet. Though at least in that case, I can pay for his insurance. I'm not sure what we would do if he were deported.

I feel so useless.

God.

You really ARE a victim, aren't you!

For someone with multiple PhDs and more money than all of us combined.. you sure do seem to have lower class type problems that a lack of education and money generally have an excuse for.

[drauz]

We've been through it twice. Once when I was younger- too young to know. My piece of shit step dad needed to sign the paperwork- which he did for my sisters. But he just couldn't really get around to it because he's a horrible person.

My mother and my brother tried a second time when Jopet was an adult, but- at the time at least- he was told that in order to start the process he had to leave the country and live in the Philippines to wait for the paperwork to process and then enter the country legally. It can take years for that. I don't know a lot of the details around it. Maybe it was because they had started once before and never finished? Maybe he's been arrested and isn't telling me? My family gets really vague when I've asked. Honestly, they didn't even tell me he was here illegally until after college. For obvious reasons, they try not to talk about it too openly. My family is from Arizona, which doesn't help.

I've offered a few times to start it back up, but he doesn't want to have to leave for a few years to live in a country he doesn't know anything about. He's in denial, but I can tell he's freaking out inside. I'm going to call some attorneys to try to see if anything has changed since he tried to get his green card a few years back.

It's just a really bad situation. Have I mentioned that he has Type II Diabetes and is on Obamacare? I haven't even gotten to the point where I can process that yet. Though at least in that case, I can pay for his insurance. I'm not sure what we would do if he were deported.

I feel so useless.

I would assume that talking to an attorney would be the only step available to you at the moment. For all you know it might not be all that hard to get the green card started. Hell, find him a girl/guy there in CA for him to marry. Problem solved!

Either way, good luck.

Not important but is your brother subsidized or does he pay for his insurance in full?

[Gelston]

Hell, find him a girl/guy there in CA for him to marry. Problem solved!


That would be another violation of the law.

[drauz]

That would be another violation of the law.

And so is smoking marijuana.

[Warriorbird]

That would be another violation of the law.

Trump style.

[Gelston]

Trump style.

Yeah, no. They had green cards and he was marrying them because they were hot and he wanted to bang them.

[Warriorbird]

Yeah, no. They had green cards and he was marrying them because they were hot and he wanted to bang them.

Maybe.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/09/14/melania-trump-clears-up-some-but-not-all-of-the-questions-about-her-own-immigration/

[Back]

O RLY?


Methais wins the Internet.

I'm disappoint that you both did not understand that statement.

I try to identify with everyone. Find the common connection. Even with people I disagree with on this forum. Believe it or not. I feel it is a more enlightened way to live than shunning or ridiculing people.

[Gelston]

I'm disappoint that you both did not understand that statement.

I try to identify with everyone. Find the common connection. Even with people I disagree with on this forum. Believe it or not. I feel it is a more enlightened way to live than shunning or ridiculing people.

And you do a horrible job at it.

[time4fun]

I would assume that talking to an attorney would be the only step available to you at the moment. For all you know it might not be all that hard to get the green card started. Hell, find him a girl/guy there in CA for him to marry. Problem solved!

Either way, good luck.

Not important but is your brother subsidized or does he pay for his insurance in full?

Heavily subsidized. It's fine, I'll pay for it. My sister is also on it with partial subsidy. I already pay her premiums for her.

This is what life is now I guess. Scared one brother is going to be deported, scared another brother is going to lose his rights, and wondering how much it's going to cost me to cover insurance for two siblings who are going to lose it otherwise. I just hope they don't repeal the pre-existing conditions exclusion. My brother can't be off of his meds for 6 months obviously.

They already have the ACA repeal bill ready, for those who were wondering. They used reconciliation, it just needs a majority vote in both Chambers to pass. I don't think that'll be a problem for them.

So yeah, this isn't about left or right or hypothetical political realities. These are the human consequences of the election. No amount of dismissal, sarcasm, or heartless amusement will change the reality of it for families like mine.

[drauz]

Heavily subsidized. It's fine, I'll pay for it. My sister is also on it with partial subsidy. I already pay her premiums for her.

This is what life is now I guess. Scared one brother is going to be deported, scared another brother is going to lose his rights, and wondering how much it's going to cost me to cover insurance for two siblings who are going to lose it otherwise. I just hope they don't repeal the pre-existing conditions exclusion. My brother can't be off of his meds for 6 months obviously.

They already have the ACA repeal bill ready, for those who were wondering. They used reconciliation, it just needs a majority vote in both Chambers to pass. I don't think that'll be a problem for them.

I'm not trying to be mean but this is what a lot of people including myself don't like. Your brother shouldn't be subsidized at all. He isn't here legally, how many other millions are doing the same? I'm sure its not his fault if he did come here so young but we shouldn't be paying for an undocumented person's health care. I'm glad that you are willing to step up and pay for it, but is this something you could have done all along.

[time4fun]

I'm not trying to be mean but this is what a lot of people including myself don't like. Your brother shouldn't be subsidized at all. He isn't here legally, how many other millions are doing the same? I'm sure its not his fault if he did come here so young but we shouldn't be paying for an undocumented person's health care. I'm glad that you are willing to step up and pay for it, but is this something you could have done all along.



He's not an "undocumented person". He's my family. He's a real person. He's funny (but not always intentionally), he's so shitty at math it's not even funny, he likes orange juice, and he's a nerd about sci-fi. And he's so fucking loved. He doesn't deserve to die from Diabetes-related complications. He pays taxes and receives very little benefit from it compared to a citizen. He helps his neighbors. He's a good person, and this is his home. And the world isn't better if he dies.

[Gelston]

You think my brother should die instead?

Or you could pay for it with your massive wealth.

[Back]

Lucky.

Of that I am not unaware.


I have a brother who has lived here most of his life. He's here illegally from the Philippines, and today I sat around and wondered how many more times I'm going to get to see him. If Trump does what he promised- will my brother be forced to leave? He barely knows the Philippines- this is his home. Where would he even go? He barely knows the family over there. And I know some of you here can't wait for my brother to leave because you feel like he's taking something from you, and he deserves it. And some of you will just find this so hilarious. But he's my brother. And I love him. And now I find myself wondering if in two years, he'll be at Christmas with us.

Understood. Many immigrants are in fear right now. The best I can say is deportations will not happen as Trump said overnight. It would be impossible with the way our system works. It will take years to overturn the systems we already have in place. I know it's hard to hear but I'm certain everyone is safe from gestapo tactics until the next election. Worry about it if Trump or some surrogate gets elected then.

Also remember there are many if not more "white" people who voted against Trump as displayed by Clinton winning the popular vote.


A colleague of mine showed up to work on the edge of tears today. Mike Pence is already talking about the LGBTQ rights he's looking forward to dismantling, and he's one of the most anti-gay elected officials in the country. He's responsible for one of the freedom to discrimination/freedom of religion bills. Her sister called her up sobbing, terrified of what this is going to mean for her. I broke down too- what does this mean for my other brother who happens to be gay? What about all of my friends?

Again, reversing where we are now is going to take a long time. The progress we have made can not be unmade in a day, a month, a week, or a year. It will take years and it is my belief our progress will not be undone with Trump and Pence.


I get how this is some major political victory for some people here. And how it's just hysterically funny to others. And I get how some of you just feel like this is no big deal- because for you it may not be.

But for some of us- this is beyond terrifying. I'm so scared for my family that I'm literally sick to my stomach.

One thing to remember is that this is a country of freedom of speech, ideas, and opinions. It is also a country that has checks and balances in government so no one person or party can dictate the making, interpretation, or execution of laws. Sometimes progress seems too slow. But time is on it's side. :)

[Back]

And you do a horrible job at it.

Care to elaborate a bit?

[Gelston]

Care to elaborate a bit?

Yeah, you come off as a self-righteous prick.

[drauz]

You think my brother should die instead?

I don't think he should die, but I also don't think citizens should be paying for undocumented worker's healthcare. Its a tough position I'll admit, but you're step fathers lack of follow thru shouldn't burden the citizens who live here. I have to wonder how much of the rest of his life is subsidized if he can't even pay for healthcare. I am assuming he doesn't have kids or a wife/husband, and that he can't get a "real" job because he is undocumented.

[Tgo01]

I can't help but chuckle at someone who thinks they have so much money that the government should tax them more so the government can help more people hasn't used part of her wealth to help their brother live in the US legally.

You are like the typical Democrat; why should I help myself, that's what the government is for.

[Shaps]

You think my brother should die instead?

Seriously? You think anyone wants that?

Do you ever stop to think about the citizens, their tax dollars, and the laws of the country that has KEPT him alive? Their sacrifices and the lack of respect shown them?

This is what I meant by the "bully and abused at the same time" mentality of liberalism.

You have just openly admitted to more than one of your family members here ILLEGALLY. Their use of the tax dollars of the citizenry to support themselves for years. And now that laws may actually be enforced, feel entitled to that continued support? Solely based on appealing to the generosity of a Nation that has already supported and kept your brother alive for years?

Yet you mock, throw insults, and demean people for wondering where their tax dollars go and the enforcement of the Nation's laws?

Perhaps there is a family legally in the US.. that pays taxes.. has a family member that has medical issues.. must support and pay for loved ones which takes away from their ability to live a certain level. Guess what that is called.. it's called life. And it's tough. And no one is entitled to something just because they "want it".

I wish your family all the best I do.. but you really should think of others.. respect their viewpoint more.. and understand that your family has, by YOUR own admission, been generously cared for by the country you now claim to be so fearful of.

[time4fun]

I don't think he should die, but I also don't think citizens should be paying for undocumented worker's healthcare. Its a tough position I'll admit, but you're step fathers lack of follow thru shouldn't burden the citizens who live here. I have to wonder how much of the rest of his life is subsidized if he can't even pay for healthcare. I am assuming he doesn't have kids or a wife/husband, and that he can't get a "real" job because he is undocumented.

Drauz- you understand that the ACA taxes come out of payroll taxes, right? My brother pays payroll taxes. A lot of undocumented immigrants do. His job may not pay much, but he's earning his keep. Why should he pay for your ACA and not benefit? He's already paying Social Security tax and won't receive any benefit for it.

[time4fun]

Seriously? You think anyone wants that?

Do you ever stop to think about the citizens, their tax dollars, and the laws of the country that has KEPT him alive? Their sacrifices and the lack of respect shown them?

This is what I meant by the "bully and abused at the same time" mentality of liberalism.

You have just openly admitted to more than one of your family members here ILLEGALLY. Their use of the tax dollars of the citizenry to support themselves for years. And now that laws may actually be enforced, feel entitled to that continued support? Solely based on appealing to the generosity of a Nation that has already supported and kept your brother alive for years?

Yet you mock, throw insults, and demean people for wondering where their tax dollars go and the enforcement of the Nation's laws?

Perhaps there is a family legally in the US.. that pays taxes.. has a family member that has medical issues.. must support and pay for loved ones which takes away from their ability to live a certain level. Guess what that is called.. it's called life. And it's tough. And no one is entitled to something just because they "want it".

I wish your family all the best I do.. but you really should think of others.. respect their viewpoint more.. and understand that your family has, by YOUR own admission, been generously cared for by the country you now claim to be so fearful of.

Tell me again why me and my family shouldn't be terrified right now.

[Shaps]

Tell me again why me and my family shouldn't be terrified right now.

You didn't understand a word I wrote. That is obvious.

[Back]

Yeah, you come off as a self-righteous prick.

Thank you for the feedback. It really helps me improve.

If I can return the favor... you might try to go into more detail about your perception, theories, feelings, or opinions than just one off insulting sentences. Anyone can do that.

[Gelston]

Thank you for the feedback. It really helps me improve.

If I can return the favor... you might try to go into more detail about your perception, theories, feelings, or opinions than just one off insulting sentences. Anyone can do that.

I thought about it, but you are so damn stubborn that I felt it wasn't worth it.

[time4fun]

You didn't understand a word I wrote. That is obvious.

You told me I was selfish and a bully because I want my brother to be healthy. You told me that the fact that we love my brother and want him to live in the only home he has ever known with his family means that we're taking something from someone else. You told me that if my brother dies of Diabetes-related complications, that's "just life".

And then you said you wished my family well.

I understood perfectly. You act like this is the first time someone has said something like that- or much, much worse- to me and my family.

[Back]

I thought about it, but you are so damn stubborn that I felt it wasn't worth it.

So it would seem I have more conviction than you. Is that true?

[Gelston]

So it would seem I have more conviction than you. Is that true?

Nope. Need to recall your computer thread?

[drauz]

Drauz- you understand that the ACA taxes come out of payroll taxes, right? My brother pays payroll taxes. A lot of undocumented immigrants do. His job may not pay much, but he's earning his keep. Why should he pay for your ACA and not benefit? He's already paying Social Security tax and won't receive any benefit for it.

I have insurance thru my employer. My insurance isn't subsidized in the least and I live in a very expensive part of the country (not SF but it can be hard). Thats a bad line of reasoning. He also can't vote because hes an undocumented person, should all undocumented people have that right. I mean they live here. I would be willing to bet that amount he pays in doesn't equal the amount he gets out, that isn't earning his keep.

[Tgo01]

Tell me again why me and my family shouldn't be terrified right now.

Fuck's sake. Trump is not literally Hitler. Tone down your bullshit rhetoric and fear mongering just a bit.

[Shaps]

You told me I was selfish and a bully because I want my brother to be healthy. You told me that the fact that we love my brother and want him to live in the only home he has ever known with his family means that we're taking something from someone else. You told me that if my brother dies of Diabetes-related complications, that's "just life".

And then you said you wished my family well.

I understood perfectly. You act like this is the first time someone has said something like that- or much, much worse- to me and my family.

You understood what you wanted to, which was not the point at all. It's just how you rationalize it in your mind.

The point is.. EVERYONE wants their family healthy and whole. EVERYONE loves their brothers, mothers, fathers, sisters. EVERYONE has hardship and must make sacrifices for family.

You said that "you're taking something from someone else" by admitting your family is here ILLEGALLY. That is taking from someone else... the LEGAL citizens of this Nation that you and your family for decades have benefited and been supported by. Not me.

Yet you think you're entitled to that continued support, when LEGALLY you are not. That is the point.

I don't wish harm on anyone or their family, and I realize that it's hard for people all over this world. I don't fault people for wanting to improve their lives. But I do respect the laws of the Nation that I live in, or the Nations that I visit. Is it wrong to ask the same of others?

If you thought what I said was bad to you, then you missed the point as I said.

This country for decades has supported your family, even though YOUR family, decided to IGNORE the legal procedures because it's not what YOU want. Your brothers situation is the responsibility of your families actions... not the Nation that has for years supported it.

[Neveragain]

Tell me again why me and my family shouldn't be terrified right now.

You should be, you're breaking the fucking law. It's really that simple, you're harboring a felon.

[time4fun]

I have insurance thru my employer. My insurance isn't subsidized in the least and I live in a very expensive part of the country (not SF but it can be hard). Thats a bad line of reasoning. He also can't vote because hes an undocumented person, should all undocumented people have that right. I mean they live here. I would be willing to bet that amount he pays in doesn't equal the amount he gets out, that isn't earning his keep.

He's been here almost his entire life. He's worked and paid taxes. He didn't choose to come here, and it's not his fault that my step-dad wouldn't sign the paperwork. I'm not sure what the sin is here- is it that he didn't go back to a country he doesn't really know? That he chose to stay with his family? We couldn't afford to just pick up and move to the Philippines while paperwork was processing. Is the sin here that we didn't force him to go to a strange country to live on his own anyway?

Should our family be torn apart over that? Should he go somewhere where he may not be able to get proper medical care?

Maybe the world would be a better place if my family were broken up, and if I only got to see him a hand-full of times for the rest of my life. Maybe the world would be a better place if he just died of diabetes-related complications. We may very well find out soon.

Here's what I do know- not a single person reading this would have acted any differently than we did if they had found themselves in the same situation.

But given the conversation that has gone on in this thread- don't tell me that I shouldn't be up at night staring at the ceiling. This is the nightmare my family woke up to today. I hope our fear and our pain is buying you something wonderful.

[Androidpk]

I dont follow NH senate races whata wrong with Hassan?

She doesn't want to legalize marijuana and didn't want to allow veterans access to medicinal mj.

[Back]

Nope. Need to recall your computer thread?

Insults, lack of effort, and idle threats make you, as I recall, a waste of my time. Have a good evening.

[Gelston]

Insults, lack of effort, and idle threats make you, as I recall, a waste of my time. Have a good evening.

"Idle threats" what threats have I made against anyone on here, ever?

[Stumplicker]

you're harboring a felon.

I'm not sure you know what words mean.

[drauz]

He's been here almost his entire life. He's worked and paid taxes. He didn't choose to come here, and it's not his fault that my step-dad wouldn't sign the paperwork. I'm not sure what the sin is here- is it that he didn't go back to a country he doesn't really know? That he chose to stay with his family? We couldn't afford to just pick up and move to the Philippines while paperwork was processing. Is the sin here that we didn't force him to go to a strange country to live on his own anyway?

Should our family be torn apart over that? Should he go somewhere where he may not be able to get proper medical care?

Maybe the world would be a better place if my family were broken up, and if I only got to see him a hand-full of times for the rest of my life. Maybe the world would be a better place if he just died of diabetes-related complications. We may very well find out soon.

Here's what I do know- not a single person reading this would have acted any differently than we did if they had found themselves in the same situation.

But given the conversation that has gone on in this thread- don't tell me that I shouldn't be up at night staring at the ceiling.

Not everything is black and white. Its nothing he did that caused this situation, if anything it sounds like a sin for your step-dad. Your brother is just paying the price. Welcome to having a family. If my imaginary wife was to run up a credit card bill that is under my name and then we get a divorce, I still have to pay for that bill.

Its a tough situation, I will grant you that. You do have options, they just aren't the ones you want. You could pay to have him live in the Philippines for however long is needed and help to sponsor his green card. Yes, it would be tough time for him living in a strange country he doesn't know about but it is an option.

Your situation isn't everyones situation though. I would dare to call it the outlier. If one person is found not guilty of theft should we then let everyone off the hook for theft?

[Shaps]

He's been here almost his entire life. He's worked and paid taxes. He didn't choose to come here, and it's not his fault that my step-dad wouldn't sign the paperwork. I'm not sure what the sin is here- is it that he didn't go back to a country he doesn't really know? That he chose to stay with his family? We couldn't afford to just pick up and move to the Philippines while paperwork was processing. Is the sin here that we didn't force him to go to a strange country to live on his own anyway?

Should our family be torn apart over that? Should he go somewhere where he may not be able to get proper medical care?

Maybe the world would be a better place if my family were broken up, and if I only got to see him a hand-full of times for the rest of my life. Maybe the world would be a better place if he just died of diabetes-related complications. We may very well find out soon.

Here's what I do know- not a single person reading this would have acted any differently than we did if they had found themselves in the same situation.

But given the conversation that has gone on in this thread- don't tell me that I shouldn't be up at night staring at the ceiling. This is the nightmare my family woke up to today. I hope our fear and our pain is buying you something wonderful.

The one thing I will take issue with is the concept when you said.. "Is it a sin here that we didn't force him to go to a strange country to live on his own anyway". I don't consider it a sin, but it is illegal. Living apart from any loved one is tough, but people persevere (spelling?).

I spent nearly 7 years overseas, away from family and friends. It was my choice. It was a sacrifice I was willing to make in order to achieve what I wanted out of life. Your family had a choice and sacrifice to make, in order to get what you wanted too. So your argument about the "sacrifice" of living apart from a loved one for a few years, doesn't really sway me in this argument. EVERYONE makes sacrifices for what they want for themselves and their family. It is universal, so don't think your family is unique in that regards.

That goes to the heart of what I'm saying to you. NO ONE wishes harm on you or your family, but EVERYONE makes sacrifices and decisions in their life to get what they want or need out of life.

Again, I wish you and your family all the best. Just don't be so blind to others thoughts or trivialize what they have had to do in life to survive. Ya know?

[Tgo01]

But given the conversation that has gone on in this thread- don't tell me that I shouldn't be up at night staring at the ceiling. This is the nightmare my family woke up to today. I hope our fear and our pain is buying you something wonderful.

Your brother has been living in this country illegally almost his entire life and it never occurred to your family before tonight that one day he might get caught and deported? Really? That thought never crossed your mind?

Well shit, I guess this is just proof that the US is entirely too lenient in its immigration policies that you never once thought this might be a problem until Trump was elected. You do realize Trump isn't proposing any new laws in this regard, right? He's simply stating he wants to enforce the laws already on the books.

And let's get real, I doubt Trump will do much more about illegal aliens than Obama did.

[drauz]

Your brother has been living in this country illegally almost his entire life and it never occurred to your family before tonight that one day he might get caught and deported? Really? That thought never crossed your mind?

Well shit, I guess this is just proof that the US is entirely too lenient in its immigration policies that you never once thought this might be a problem until Trump was elected. You do realize Trump isn't proposing any new laws in this regard, right? He's simply stating he wants to enforce the laws already on the books.

And let's get real, I doubt Trump will do much more about illegal aliens than Obama did.

He's building a wall to keep them in! /joking

[Neveragain]

I'm not sure you know what words mean.

Oh you're right, it's a misdemeanor for the first offense.

I'll change that for you.......You're harboring a fugitive.

Feel better princess ?

[Androidpk]

No wonder time4fun didn't care about Hillary breaking the law.

[Neveragain]

Just don't be so blind to others thoughts or trivialize what they have had to do in life to survive. Ya know?

I want to shove a pencil in my eyeball.

You're the one trivializing what the law abiding CITIZENS are sacrificing so your brother can stay here illegally. This is what pisses me off about liberals, always there with a handout but unwilling to make their own self sacrifice.

[Stumplicker]

Oh you're right, it's a misdemeanor for the first offense.

I'll change that for you.......You're harboring a fugitive.

Feel better princess ?

No. Get a damned education before you start saying things. Felony and felon are two different words. The fact that being an illegal immigrant is a misdemeanor is just icing on the idiot cake you're baking. Furthermore, a fugitive is a person who has escaped from something; not someone who has broken a law that has long gone without enforcement. Would you call anyone who's ever smoked a joint a fugitive?

If you're going to flip people shit using a sound byte you made up in your head without any supporting statement, at least make sure you do it correctly. Be a conservative, but goddamn it be an intelligent conservative. You make other conservatives look dumber by comparison just by being yourself. What you said was two short sentences long, and you haven't been able to correct it even with a second post. Were you dropped on your head as a child?

[RichardCranium]

I want to shove a pencil in my eyeball.

You're the one trivializing what the law abiding CITIZENS are sacrificing so your brother can stay here illegally. This is what pisses me off about liberals, always there with a handout but unwilling to make their own self sacrifice.

You quoted Shaps, but responded to time4fun.

[Neveragain]

No. Get a damned education before you start saying things. Felony and felon are two different words. The fact that being an illegal immigrant is a misdemeanor is just icing on the idiot cake you're baking. Furthermore, a fugitive is a person who has escaped from something; not someone who has broken a law that has long gone without enforcement. Would you call anyone who's ever smoked a joint a fugitive?

If you're going to flip people shit using a sound byte you made up in your head without any supporting statement, at least make sure you do it correctly. Be a conservative, but goddamn it be an intelligent conservative. You make other conservatives look dumber by comparison just by being yourself. What you said was two short sentences long, and you haven't been able to correct it even with a second post. Were you dropped on your head as a child?

You are simply wrong, sir.

http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/AidAbetUnlawfulSec8USC1324.html

Up to a $10,000 fine or 5 years in prison.

[Neveragain]

You quoted Shaps, but responded to time4fun.

I now see that. Probably a good time to call it a night. lol

[Vorpos]

Of that I am not unaware.



Understood. Many immigrants are in fear right now. The best I can say is deportations will not happen as Trump said overnight. It would be impossible with the way our system works. It will take years to overturn the systems we already have in place. I know it's hard to hear but I'm certain everyone is safe from gestapo tactics until the next election. Worry about it if Trump or some surrogate gets elected then.

Also remember there are many if not more "white" people who voted against Trump as displayed by Clinton winning the popular vote.



Again, reversing where we are now is going to take a long time. The progress we have made can not be unmade in a day, a month, a week, or a year. It will take years and it is my belief our progress will not be undone with Trump and Pence.



One thing to remember is that this is a country of freedom of speech, ideas, and opinions. It is also a country that has checks and balances in government so no one person or party can dictate the making, interpretation, or execution of laws. Sometimes progress seems too slow. But time is on it's side. :)


Trump doesn't have to deport them. That costs money. It's cheaper and easier just to cut their benefits and fine companies who hire them. They'll deport themselves.

[Stumplicker]

You are simply wrong, sir.

http://www.americanpatrol.com/REFERENCE/AidAbetUnlawfulSec8USC1324.html

Up to a $10,000 fine or 5 years in prison.

I encourage you to actually read, and comprehend what you just linked, assuming you're able to. You are the dumbest person I have spoken to in weeks.

[Neveragain]

I encourage you to actually read, and comprehend what you just linked, assuming you're able to. You are the dumbest person I have spoken to in weeks.


A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:

* assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or

* encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or

* knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.

Penalties upon conviction include criminal fines, imprisonment, and forfeiture of vehicles and real property used to commit the crime. Anyone employing or contracting with an illegal alien without verifying his or her work authorization status is guilty of a misdemeanor. Aliens and employers violating immigration laws are subject to arrest, detention, and seizure of their vehicles or property. In addition, individuals or entities who engage in racketeering enterprises that commit (or conspire to commit) immigration-related felonies are subject to private civil suits for treble damages and injunctive relief.


Encouraging and Harboring Illegal Aliens

It is a violation of law for any person to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection in any place, including any building or means of transportation, any alien who is in the United States in violation of law. HARBORING MEANS ANY CONDUCT THAT TENDS TO SUBSTANTIALLY FACILITATE AN ALIEN TO REMAIN IN THE U.S. ILLEGALLY. The sheltering need not be clandestine, and harboring covers aliens arrested outdoors, as well as in a building. This provision includes harboring an alien who entered the U.S. legally but has since lost his legal status.

I have no qualms admitting when I'm wrong, that being said..........this is pretty straight forward.

I would be more than happy to have you point out what I'm missing here.

[drauz]

I have no qualms admitting when I'm wrong, that being said..........this is pretty straight forward.

I would be more than happy to have you point out what I'm missing here.

You aren't a felon until you are convicted of a felony. No one spoken about here has been convicted of a felony therefore felon isn't the right word. Without a conviction they are just a ...I guess person of interest?

[Luftstreitkräfte]

the best thing about Trump's victory is a former GM on facebook crying really hard about it and opening a support group for folks. that type of butthurt exists.

[Tgo01]

My gay cousin literally thinks Trump is going to round up all the gays and force them into straight conversion therapy.

His friends are already making battle plans about defending themselves from being forced into such conversion therapies and are talking about starting a protest movement against it.

I think the left has lost it's collective fucking mind.

[Vorpos]

Your brother has been living in this country illegally almost his entire life and it never occurred to your family before tonight that one day he might get caught and deported? Really? That thought never crossed your mind?

Well shit, I guess this is just proof that the US is entirely too lenient in its immigration policies that you never once thought this might be a problem until Trump was elected. You do realize Trump isn't proposing any new laws in this regard, right? He's simply stating he wants to enforce the laws already on the books.

And let's get real, I doubt Trump will do much more about illegal aliens than Obama did.

You're right Trump won't do anything about it. If anyone is hoping there will be any changes politically they'll be disappointed. Realistically the only thing Trump cares about is money. I heard that he only wants one term. So basically he will spend the next four years eliminating his business competition. I almost feel sorry for Jeff Bezos and the Silicon Valley assholes. They're the first ones going down.

[Stumplicker]

My gay cousin literally thinks Trump is going to round up all the gays and force them into straight conversion therapy.

His friends are already making battle plans about defending themselves from being forced into such conversion therapies and are talking about starting a protest movement against it.

I think the left has lost it's collective fucking mind.

On the one hand, yes, I think a lot of the fears are extremely exaggerated and I don't think either Trump or Pence would be the end of the world even if they sought to be. But on the other hand, I'm a straight white male, and so are you. American History, both recent and distant, has a strong tendency toward being horrible to minorities. If I were a gay black man I'd probably be flipping my shit right now, and I'd be right to do so.

Can't judge fears when they're founded in historical fact. Homosexuals have been persecuted in parts of this and other countries as recently as...well as recently as the time I'm writing this post. African Americans too.

Edit to fix grammar and to add: We're also straight white males in our 30s. We grew up during a time when everyone was just really starting to become accepted in more progressive parts of the country. As far as we've seen, accepting people for who they are is just something everybody does, when really, that's a really damn recent development that isn't finished happening. We're not that far removed from a time when African Americans were secretly given syphilis by scientists just to see what would happen.

* Edit again to mention that African American can be substituted with any minority in my example.

If I were a gay muslim I'd probably be freaking out even harder.

[Vorpos]

On the one hand, yes, I think a lot of the fears are extremely exaggerated and I don't think either Trump or Pence would be the end of the world even if they sought to be. But on the other hand, I'm a straight white male, and so are you. American History, both recent and distant, has a strong tendency toward being horrible to minorities. If I were a gay black man I'd probably be flipping my shit right now, and I'd be right to do so.

Can't judge fears when they're founded in historical fact. Homosexuals have been persecuted in parts of this and other countries as recently as...well as recently as the time I'm writing this post. African Americans too.

Edit to fix grammar and to add: We're also straight white males in our 30s. We grew up during a time when everyone was just really starting to become accepted in more progressive parts of the country. As far as we've seen, accepting people for who they are is just something everybody does, when really, that's a really damn recent development that isn't finished happening. We're not that far removed from a time when African Americans were secretly given syphilis by scientists just to see what would happen.

What if Hillary won and people were scared that she was coming for their guns. Would you defend them or mock them for being irrational?

[Tgo01]

On the one hand, yes, I think a lot of the fears are extremely exaggerated and I don't think either Trump or Pence would be the end of the world even if they sought to be. But on the other hand, I'm a straight white male, and so are you. American History, both recent and distant, has a strong tendency toward being horrible to minorities. If I were a gay black man I'd probably be flipping my shit right now, and I'd be right to do so.

Can't judge fears when they're founded in historical fact. Homosexuals have been persecuted in parts of this and other countries as recently as...well as recently as the time I'm writing this post. African Americans too.

No, the government never rounded up gays and forced them into conversion therapies. The government never rounded up blacks and put them into death camps.

The closest thing our government did was round up Japanese Americans and send them to concentration camps, and that was done by a Democrat president so looks like we're safe there.

I'm not claiming America is perfect, but it is one of the most advanced countries in the world when it comes to social progress. I know this new breed of leftists think it's rape to ask a girl to smile and that's it's racist to criticize a black president, but in the real world we're doing pretty damn well, and that isn't going to suddenly take a nose dive off a cliff because of Trump.

[Stumplicker]

What if Hillary won and people were scared that she was coming for their guns. Would you defend them or mock them for being irrational?

I would do the same thing I'm doing now. Think about the issue rationally and respond in a way I believe is correct. In the case of that, I'd say that I doubt Hillary would ever be able to accomplish "coming to take all our guns" in the exact same way I referenced Trump/Pence in my previous posts accomplishing their worst case scenarios.

With that said, I do, as a gun owning moderate conservative, feel that gun licensing and ammunition purchases should be more strictly regulated than they currently are. Not to the point where the average American can't own a firearm, but to the point where maybe we can better track at very least who has what gun, when they bought it, and if it's been misplaced, stolen, what have you. Some states have systems in place to do this already. They just don't work very well because of holes in the system and large quantities of unlicensed firearms already in circulation. We can't do anything about that right now, but we can plan for the future.

[drauz]

On the one hand, yes, I think a lot of the fears are extremely exaggerated and I don't think either Trump or Pence would be the end of the world even if they sought to be. But on the other hand, I'm a straight white male, and so are you. American History, both recent and distant, has a strong tendency toward being horrible to minorities. If I were a gay black man I'd probably be flipping my shit right now, and I'd be right to do so.

I disagree with the bolded part.



If I were a gay muslim I'd probably be freaking out even harder.

I would have started freaking out once I realized I was gay in a muslim family.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vev-OzHQy94

[drauz]

With that said, I do, as a gun owning moderate conservative, feel that gun licensing and ammunition purchases should be more strictly regulated than they currently are. Not to the point where the average American can't own a firearm, but to the point where maybe we can better track at very least who has what gun, when they bought it, and if it's been misplaced, stolen, what have you. Some states have systems in place to do this already. They just don't work very well because of holes in the system and large quantities of unlicensed firearms already in circulation. We can't do anything about that right now, but we can plan for the future.

Just what everyone wants, to be on a government list.

[Stumplicker]

I disagree with the bolded part.


The recent I'm talking about is about 10-15 years before our time, which really isn't distant enough to be called distant. Things like the Stonewall Riots, and the Tuskeegee Experiment (which didn't end until 1972). Things that are -just- outside of our radar because we're primarily 80s kids. We grew up and our experience was largely our parents reassuring us that our grandparents were "just from a different time". We had our time in the 90s when everything was "gay" and "faggy" and then we stopped using those words because we rose above it. We didn't really start becoming progressive about any minority rights until the 1960s. Hell, women couldn't even vote until 1920. If you go back to some of our grandparents, we're talking about a time when women weren't able to VOTE for the president, much less become it. Betty White was two years old when women got the vote. If people are still alive today from when it was horrible, then it counts as recent, in my book. And unfortunately, you don't have to look anywhere near back that far to get to some horrible shit.

We absolutely are a very progressive country, but we just don't realize how recent a development that is since for the better part of -our- lives, the progressive part has always been a thing.




I would have started freaking out once I realized I was gay in a muslim family.


No doubt there.


Adding on:

Heck, it was illegal to be gay in 14 states until the Supreme Court overturned it in 2003. 2003.. Now we're talking about having a Vice President in favor of conversion therapy, a President who courted certain groups of voters by skirting the line of intolerance with some questionable rhetoric, and what is it, 3 Supreme Court appointments coming up? When you take all the evidence, and again, I don't feel that the sky is falling at all, I think it's completely justified for certain minority groups to be afraid.

[Stumplicker]

Just what everyone wants, to be on a government list.

Meh. At this point, businesses know where I am, what I do, how often I jerk off, and which fetishes to show me for next time in my targeted advertisements. My bank knows who pays me, how often, and how much money I've got. A trial in which I had a vested interest got a ton of its damning evidence from which cell phone towers the cell phones owned by the persons in question had activated, and when, whose data was confirmed by a credit report from the banks to the phone companies who supplied the state with the evidence it needed. If the state had wanted to know if anyone was jerking off at the time, Verizon could have linked them the URLs.

We're on enough lists. One more isn't going to hurt, especially when it's one that could theoretically help everyone, if implemented properly.

[drauz]

The recent I'm talking about is about 10-15 years before our time, which really isn't distant enough to be called distant. Things like the Stonewall Riots, and the Tuskeegee Experiment (which didn't end until 1972). Things that are -just- outside of our radar because we're primarily 80s kids. We grew up and our experience was largely our parents reassuring us that our grandparents were "just from a different time". We had our time in the 90s when everything was "gay" and "faggy" and then we stopped using those words because we rose above it. We didn't really start becoming progressive about any minority rights until the 1960s. Hell, women couldn't even vote until 1920. If you go back to some of our grandparents, we're talking about a time when women weren't able to VOTE for the president, much less become it. Betty White was two years old when women got the vote. If people are still alive today from when it was horrible, then it counts as recent, in my book. And unfortunately, you don't have to look anywhere near back that far to get to some horrible shit.

We absolutely are a very progressive country, but we just don't realize how recent a development that is since for the better part of -our- lives, the progressive part has always been a thing.

Do you realize that all men didn't get the right to vote until 1856 (I think thats the year or its pretty close to it)? We are talking about a difference of 60 years between all men and all women getting the right to vote. Everyone seems to think that ALL white men could vote throughout the US history.

Prior to 1920 women's suffrage, woman land owners could vote as well.

[drauz]

Meh. At this point, businesses know where I am, what I do, how often I jerk off, and which fetishes to show me for next time in my targeted advertisements. My bank knows who pays me, how often, and how much money I've got. A trial in which I had a vested interest got a ton of its damning evidence from which cell phone towers the cell phones owned by the persons in question had activated, and when, whose data was confirmed by a credit report from the banks to the phone companies who supplied the state with the evidence it needed. If the state had wanted to know if anyone was jerking off at the time, Verizon could have linked them the URLs.

We're on enough lists. One more isn't going to hurt, especially when it's one that could theoretically help everyone, if implemented properly.

Learn to incognito mode!

[Stumplicker]

Do you realize that all men didn't get the right to vote until 1856 (I think thats the year or its pretty close to it)? We are talking about a difference of 60 years between all men and all women getting the right to vote. Everyone seems to think that ALL white men could vote throughout the US history.

Prior to 1920 women's suffrage, woman land owners could vote as well.

Sure, of course. And hey, progress is progress, but I don't think anybody would buy me making arguments based on civil war era laws. Like I said, I go by what people who are alive today were alive to witness, and you don't need to go back to 1920 to get to some horrible stuff. I was just editing my other post up there when you responded, so I'll put it here instead:


Adding on:

Heck, it was illegal to be gay in 14 states until the Supreme Court overturned it in 2003. 2003.. Now we're talking about having a Vice President in favor of conversion therapy, a President who courted certain groups of voters by skirting the line of intolerance with some questionable rhetoric, and what is it, 3 Supreme Court appointments coming up? When you take all the evidence, and again, I don't feel that the sky is falling at all, I think it's completely justified for certain minority groups to be afraid.

[drauz]

Meh. At this point, businesses know where I am, what I do, how often I jerk off, and which fetishes to show me for next time in my targeted advertisements. My bank knows who pays me, how often, and how much money I've got. A trial in which I had a vested interest got a ton of its damning evidence from which cell phone towers the cell phones owned by the persons in question had activated, and when, whose data was confirmed by a credit report from the banks to the phone companies who supplied the state with the evidence it needed. If the state had wanted to know if anyone was jerking off at the time, Verizon could have linked them the URLs.

We're on enough lists. One more isn't going to hurt, especially when it's one that could theoretically help everyone, if implemented properly.

These are all contracts you entered into knowing full well what they could do with your data. Someone making a law isn't me freely entering into a contract to have my data. That is a HUGE difference.

[time4fun]

The one thing I will take issue with is the concept when you said.. "Is it a sin here that we didn't force him to go to a strange country to live on his own anyway". I don't consider it a sin, but it is illegal. Living apart from any loved one is tough, but people persevere (spelling?).

I spent nearly 7 years overseas, away from family and friends. It was my choice. It was a sacrifice I was willing to make in order to achieve what I wanted out of life. Your family had a choice and sacrifice to make, in order to get what you wanted too. So your argument about the "sacrifice" of living apart from a loved one for a few years, doesn't really sway me in this argument. EVERYONE makes sacrifices for what they want for themselves and their family. It is universal, so don't think your family is unique in that regards.

That goes to the heart of what I'm saying to you. NO ONE wishes harm on you or your family, but EVERYONE makes sacrifices and decisions in their life to get what they want or need out of life.

Again, I wish you and your family all the best. Just don't be so blind to others thoughts or trivialize what they have had to do in life to survive. Ya know?

Do me a favor- don't act like the horrible situation we're in is somehow inevitable. You can dismiss the pain, you can act like a fun overseas romp of your own volition is akin to the fear of having your family ripped apart to placate the masses, and you can hypocritically mansplain to me about sacrifices you will never understand.

But don't you dare do all of that and have the nerve to say you wish my family well.

Because you don't.

[drauz]

Heck, it was illegal to be gay in 14 states until the Supreme Court overturned it in 2003. 2003.. Now we're talking about having a Vice President in favor of conversion therapy, a President who courted certain groups of voters by skirting the line of intolerance with some questionable rhetoric, and what is it, 3 Supreme Court appointments coming up? When you take all the evidence, and again, I don't feel that the sky is falling at all, I think it's completely justified for certain minority groups to be afraid.

My point was that it wasn't that long after all men got the right to vote that women got the right to vote. It was within one persons lifetime.

Are you forgetting Clinton once had similar views about gay marriage just over 10 years ago? We had shitty candidates on both sides.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I1-r1YgK9I

[drauz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZkK2_6H9MM

[Stumplicker]

These are all contracts you entered into knowing full well what they could do with your data. Someone making a law isn't me freely entering into a contract to have my data. That is a HUGE difference.

Sure, that's a fair point. What I mean by my example though is that all the information anyone could ever need about us is already out there to be had and asked for nicely by the government from the companies that have it already, and more often than not, the companies are more than happy to cooperate. We all gave up our right to privacy the minute we bought a smartphone or signed up for facebook, or god forbid, put facebook on our smartphones. That's a twofer. Damage done. If I could put my name on a list to ensure that my gun was tracked in case it were ever stolen and used in a crime, that's a government list I want to be on. You don't have to agree. It's just an opinion I have. Not sayin' it's the best one. It's just mine.

Edit: To respond to your other post (trying to condense it down to one post at at time. haha), don't even get me started on Hillary. There's a reason I didn't vote for her, and it had nothing to do with liberal vs. conservative. I suspect she is a lizard person approximating the mannerisms of a human in order to say whatever is necessary to get elected, and then lay her eggs in the white house, and, after appropriate gestation, her thousands of scaly young would spew forth to devour our children whole.

[drauz]

Sure, that's a fair point. What I mean by my example though is that all the information anyone could ever need about us is already out there to be had and asked for nicely by the government from the companies that have it already, and more often than not, the companies are more than happy to cooperate. We all gave up our right to privacy the minute we bought a smartphone or signed up for facebook, or god forbid, put facebook on our smartphones. That's a twofer. Damage done. If I could put my name on a list to ensure that my gun was tracked in case it were ever stolen and used in a crime, that's a government list I want to be on. You don't have to agree. It's just an opinion I have. Not sayin' it's the best one. It's just mine.

I would love to know how the government would know I had a gun. I paid cash for all of mine. I don't generally post pictures of them and I don't talk about them all that much online.

Oh god, they are here for m...

[Stumplicker]

I would love to know how the government would know I had a gun. I paid cash for all of mine. I don't generally post pictures of them and I don't talk about them all that much online.

Oh god, they are here for m...

That's what I mean. There's no record. In many cases, you don't have to register. You can go on Craigslist and buy a gun from a sketchy dude. You know the one. That one guy. You met him. You bought something from him on Craigslist. Maybe it was a couch; maybe it was a 9mm that'd been used in a double homicide. Maybe you bought it at a gun show. Maybe you got it from Wal Mart. Maybe you had to go for a waiting period, maybe you didn't. Maybe I took the hunting safety course when I was a kid, and maybe my father just walked into Trigger N' Reel in his police uniform and came out with a hunting license for me.

I'm not talking about A LOT of accountability that I'd like to see. Just...some, going forward, if only for newly purchased weapons. God knows there are millions of the other type already freely available from wherever.

[drauz]

That's what I mean. There's no record. In many cases, you don't have to register. You can go on Craigslist and buy a gun from a sketchy dude. You know the one. That one guy. You met him. You bought something from him on Craigslist. Maybe it was a couch; maybe it was a 9mm that'd been used in a double homicide. Maybe you bought it at a gun show. Maybe you got it from Wal Mart. Maybe you had to go for a waiting period, maybe you didn't. Maybe I took the hunting safety course when I was a kid, and maybe my father just walked into Trigger N' Reel in his police uniform and came out with a hunting license for me.

I'm not talking about A LOT of accountability that I'd like to see. Just...some, going forward, if only for newly purchased weapons. God knows there are millions of the other type already freely available from wherever.

What do you think that would do?

[Stumplicker]

What do you think that would do?

It'd depend on how strict the licensing is. Countries like Sweden register every single round of ammunition that goes out. They know how those rounds are spent, and who owns the gun that fires them. That's a lot stricter than I'm concerned with, of course. Just an example of one of the extremes. We're the other end of the extreme. No accountability anywhere for any reason.

But I think that some amount of accountability for which firearm goes where, when it changes hands, who it changes hands to, could do a lot for things like the Justice system. For example, the trial I was talking about earlier was a murder trial, and luckily, the murder weapons, found several months later, were in fact registered to the parties eventually found guilty. The cell phone tower usage put them there, along with witness accounts. The guns matching up with their records were the...well I guess the smoking gun. I have a fairly dense PDF you can read if you'd be interested on that one. It's just one example, but I don't see the harm in tracking data as new guns enter the market. The only real downside I've ever heard from anyone is fear that this politician or that is gonna "come get 'em" from us if they know where they are and how many, and I don't believe that's any more possible than Pence creating Gay conversion camps and rounding up all the homosexuals.

[drauz]

It'd depend on how strict the licensing is. Countries like Sweden register every single round of ammunition that goes out. They know how those rounds are spent, and who owns the gun that fires them. That's a lot stricter than I'm concerned with, of course. Just an example of one of the extremes. We're the other end of the extreme. No accountability anywhere for any reason.

But I think that some amount of accountability for which firearm goes where, when it changes hands, who it changes hands to, could do a lot for things like the Justice system. For example, the trial I was talking about earlier was a murder trial, and luckily, the murder weapons, found several months later, were in fact registered to the parties eventually found guilty. The cell phone tower usage put them there, along with witness accounts. The guns matching up with their records were the...well I guess the smoking gun. I have a fairly dense PDF you can read if you'd be interested on that one. It's just one example, but I don't see the harm in tracking data as new guns enter the market. The only real downside I've ever heard from anyone is fear that this politician or that is gonna "come get 'em" from us if they know where they are and how many, and I don't believe that's any more possible than Pence creating Gay conversion camps and rounding up all the homosexuals.

Its not necessarily the "they gonna come get up" that worries me. Its the fact that, let says they have a murder that was committed with a glock 9mm. The person took the weapon with them and didn't leave it at the scene. The police are able to tell from the bullet that it was fired from a glock. They have zero other leads. How do you think the police would proceed if there was a list of every person's guns? I would imagine them finding all the people in the county with that gun and trying to get warrants to inspect said gun because it is possible it could have been used in the crime. They could narrow it down to people who had a possible relationship with the victim but it would lead to people's rights being infringed on the smallest amount of evidence possible.

In your case it looks like they had everything but the smoking gun (literally).

[Androidpk]

I don't think you can look at a bullet and tell what specific kind of gun fired it.

[drauz]

I don't think you can look at a bullet and tell what specific kind of gun fired it.

Maybe I've been watching to much CSI with my girlfriend. That and I don't know much about ballistic forensics.

[Gelston]

I don't think you can look at a bullet and tell what specific kind of gun fired it.

Other than the obvious, such as knowing what caliber weapon fired it, there is a way to match it with a barrel. Without actually having the weapon though, they'd just know it was likely to be a pistol or an SMG.

[drauz]

Tell me again why me and my family shouldn't be terrified right now.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-dreamin-many-golden-state-want-secede-trump-s-u-n681796

[Tgo01]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-dreamin-many-golden-state-want-secede-trump-s-u-n681796

I laughed.

[Tgo01]

I wonder how long the children will riot because their piece of shit candidate lost fair and square.

[Vorpos]

I wonder how long the children will riot because their piece of shit candidate lost fair and square.

Well I doubt most of them work. They'll keep it up until it gets cold out. Or until Attorney General Giuliani tells the cops to start busting heads. It might knock some sense into them.

[Warriorbird]

Back to March...

http://www.weeklystandard.com/putins-rasputin-endorses-trump/article/2001344

[Vorpos]

Back to March...

http://www.weeklystandard.com/putins-rasputin-endorses-trump/article/2001344

Get ready to bow before your Russian overlords.

[Warriorbird]

Get ready to bow before your Russian overlords.

Ronald Reagan would roll over in his grave.

[Jarvan]

All ribbing aside, I would recommend you start the process for your brother. Better late than never. Does your family also live in CA? If so, I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill regarding the LGBTQ. Either way, I hope you can figure out something so that your family can stay here legally.

The real question.... why is she legal, and he is illegal? Is she an anchor baby? Did she get a green card and he didn't? Why hasn't he tried to become a citizen?

Also.. do you regularly ignore other crimes people commit?

And why are you worried? Is your brother a criminal who has committed a felony? Because even Trump said he isn't going to deport every illegal. But he will deport every criminal.


And... lastly... you are a piece of shit for not having already helped him become a citizen. Unless of course he DOESN'T want to be one because, he along with you, HATE America.

[Jarvan]

We've been through it twice. Once when I was younger- too young to know. My piece of shit step dad needed to sign the paperwork- which he did for my sisters. But he just couldn't really get around to it because he's a horrible person.

My mother and my brother tried a second time when Jopet was an adult, but- at the time at least- he was told that in order to start the process he had to leave the country and live in the Philippines to wait for the paperwork to process and then enter the country legally. It can take years for that. I don't know a lot of the details around it. Maybe it was because they had started once before and never finished? Maybe he's been arrested and isn't telling me? My family gets really vague when I've asked. Honestly, they didn't even tell me he was here illegally until after college. For obvious reasons, they try not to talk about it too openly. My family is from Arizona, which doesn't help.

I've offered a few times to start it back up, but he doesn't want to have to leave for a few years to live in a country he doesn't know anything about. He's in denial, but I can tell he's freaking out inside. I'm going to call some attorneys to try to see if anything has changed since he tried to get his green card a few years back.

It's just a really bad situation. Have I mentioned that he has Type II Diabetes and is on Obamacare? I haven't even gotten to the point where I can process that yet. Though at least in that case, I can pay for his insurance. I'm not sure what we would do if he were deported.

I feel so useless.


Should our family be torn apart over that? Should he go somewhere where he may not be able to get proper medical care?

Congrats. You are useless.

Now grow a set and do something about it.

I have been working 3 jobs the last 3 months to help my sister get off food stamps and straighten her shit out. This is the first time I have even checked the boards and to be honest, it was because I was hoping to see all the crying and threats to leave the country.

Thanks for at least making that worth it.

OMG.. Seriously.. the Philippines is not the heart of the Amazon where they may think rubbing sand in a wound can cure it. I BET you that they HAVE heard of Medicine in the Philippines, and even .. -GASP- Diabetes.

http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-health-care-information/world-health-organizations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/

WHO ranks it 60th in the world. Above Ukraine (79) and only 2 below South Korea (58).

I think he would live.

[Androidpk]

Ronald Reagan would roll over in his grave.

At your idiocy, yes.

[~Rocktar~]

https://youtu.be/K0u_on5fQsY

[Wrathbringer]

At your idiocy, yes.

:lol:

[Wrathbringer]

Do me a favor- don't act like the horrible situation we're in is somehow inevitable. You can dismiss the pain, you can act like a fun overseas romp of your own volition is akin to the fear of having your family ripped apart to placate the masses, and you can hypocritically mansplain to me about sacrifices you will never understand.

But don't you dare do all of that and have the nerve to say you wish my family well.

Because you don't.

wait, you're here illegally? Or your family is? lol get ready to go home, law breaker! #Trump #Getoutmexicans

[Neveragain]

You aren't a felon until you are convicted of a felony. No one spoken about here has been convicted of a felony therefore felon isn't the right word. Without a conviction they are just a ...I guess person of interest?

Oh, I was mistaken on what the first offense charge is on being here illegally (I'm actually surprised it's not a felony offense), though the way I'm reading the law knowingly harboring an illegal alien actually is a felony. And yes I do know the difference between a felon and a felony.

[Neveragain]

Do me a favor- don't act like the horrible situation we're in is somehow inevitable. You can dismiss the pain, you can act like a fun overseas romp of your own volition is akin to the fear of having your family ripped apart to placate the masses, and you can hypocritically mansplain to me about sacrifices you will never understand.

But don't you dare do all of that and have the nerve to say you wish my family well.

Because you don't.

:violin:

It's not possible for us to understand your struggles, yet for months now you have been able to understand our struggle simply by our gender and race. :clap:

[ClydeR]

Get ready to bow before your Russian overlords.

That's just silly. Before the election, people, including the CIA, were worried that the Russians would use their cyber operations to secretly change the voting machines to give the election to Trump. We all know that didn't happen.

[time4fun]

:violin:

It's not possible for us to understand your struggles, yet for months now you have been able to understand our struggle simply by our gender and race. :clap:

I actually feel really sad for you. I can't imagine being so empty inside.

[Wrathbringer]

I actually feel really sad for you. I can't imagine being so empty inside.

Go home, mexican.

[time4fun]

That's just silly. Before the election, people, including the CIA, were worried that the Russians would use their cyber operations to secretly change the voting machines to give the election to Trump. We all know that didn't happen.

Actually the Russian government just confirmed today that they were in contact with the Trump campaign the whole time.

Dismissing this issue requires a lot of denial.

[ClydeR]

Actually the Russian government just confirmed today that they were in contact with the Trump campaign the whole time.

Dismissing this issue requires a lot of denial.

Just because the Russians were cozy with Trump doesn't mean that the Russian cyber force changed the election results. Don't start that rumor If the shoe were on the other foot, you know that Trump would not perpetuate an unfounded rumor about the legitimacy of the president.

[drauz]

Do me a favor- don't act like the horrible situation we're in is somehow inevitable. You can dismiss the pain, you can act like a fun overseas romp of your own volition is akin to the fear of having your family ripped apart to placate the masses, and you can hypocritically mansplain to me about sacrifices you will never understand.

But don't you dare do all of that and have the nerve to say you wish my family well.

Because you don't.

God, I hate that word mansplain. Hypocrisy thy name is Vishra.

[drauz]

Just because the Russians were cozy with Trump doesn't mean that the Russian cyber force changed the election results. Don't start that rumor If the shoe were on the other foot, you know that Trump would not perpetuate an unfounded rumor about the legitimacy of the president.

Link?

[Wrathbringer]

Just because the Russians were cozy with Trump doesn't mean that the Russian cyber force changed the election results. Don't start that rumor If the shoe were on the other foot, you know that Trump would not perpetuate an unfounded rumor about the legitimacy of the president.

Just shut up. You lost. It's over.

[Warriorbird]

Link?

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-russia-trump-idUSKBN1351RJ

Funny after all the obvious denial from certain folks.

[Wrathbringer]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-russia-trump-idUSKBN1351RJ

Funny after all the obvious denial from certain folks.

What's funny about it?

[drauz]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-russia-trump-idUSKBN1351RJ

Funny after all the obvious denial from certain folks.

"The Federal Bureau of Investigation opened a preliminary inquiry in recent months into allegations that Trump or his associates might have had questionable dealings with Russian people or businesses, but found no evidence to warrant opening a full
investigation, according to sources familiar with the matter. The agency has not publicly discussed the probe."

Looks like both sides will have their "well the FBI didn't indict" moment.

[time4fun]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-russia-trump-idUSKBN1351RJ

Funny after all the obvious denial from certain folks.

There isn't a single person who actually believed they weren't working together. Folks were happy to have a foreign power undermining on our democracy if it suited their political agenda.

This will change nothing unfortunately. We're in a very scary place in American politics right now.

In other news,

Guliani was on CNN talking about prosecuting Clinton (though I hear we was less than committal)

Omarosa was on CNN talking about the list of enemies that the Trump folks were making to punish people who didn't support him

Pence has confirmed that they will be rolling back the recent Transgender protections.

[Wrathbringer]

There isn't a single person who actually believed they weren't working together. Folks were happy to have a foreign power undermining on our democracy if it suited their political agenda.

This will change nothing unfortunately. We're in a very scary place in American politics right now.

In other news,

Guliani was on CNN talking about prosecuting Clinton (though I hear we was less than committal)

Omarosa was on CNN talking about the list of enemies that the Trump folks were making to punish people who didn't support him

Pence has confirmed that they will be rolling back the recent Transgender protections.

It's a lot to be excited about. :D

[Vorpos]

There isn't a single person who actually believed they weren't working together. Folks were happy to have a foreign power undermining on our democracy if it suited their political agenda.

This will change nothing unfortunately. We're in a very scary place in American politics right now.

In other news,

Guliani was on CNN talking about prosecuting Clinton (though I hear we was less than committal)

Omarosa was on CNN talking about the list of enemies that the Trump folks were making to punish people who didn't support him

Pence has confirmed that they will be rolling back the recent Transgender protections.

The serious question is what's going to happen when the Russian FSB uses mind control on your illegal brother?

[time4fun]

The serious question is what's going to happen when the Russian FSB uses mind control on your illegal brother?

You're a fool. An honest to god fool. You have no idea how serious these things are, but you may be about to find out.

[Warriorbird]

The serious question is what's going to happen when the Russian FSB uses mind control on your illegal brother?

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/31/world/europe/russia-finland-nato-trolls.html

[drauz]

There isn't a single person who actually believed they weren't working together. Folks were happy to have a foreign power undermining on our democracy if it suited their political agenda.

This will change nothing unfortunately. We're in a very scary place in American politics right now.

In other news,

Guliani was on CNN talking about prosecuting Clinton (though I hear we was less than committal)

Omarosa was on CNN talking about the list of enemies that the Trump folks were making to punish people who didn't support him

Pence has confirmed that they will be rolling back the recent Transgender protections.

I'm still not sold that transgender people don't have a mental disorder.

[Parkbandit]

Do me a favor- don't act like the horrible situation we're in is somehow inevitable. You can dismiss the pain, you can act like a fun overseas romp of your own volition is akin to the fear of having your family ripped apart to placate the masses, and you can hypocritically mansplain to me about sacrifices you will never understand.

But don't you dare do all of that and have the nerve to say you wish my family well.

Because you don't.

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/that-face-you-make-when-you-know-someone-is-full-of-shit.png

[Vorpos]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/31/world/europe/russia-finland-nato-trolls.html

People on this site are gonna learn how to use the troll techniques and time4fun is gonna have a Charlie Sheen style meltdown.

[Allereli]

It's a lot to be excited about. :D

I'm super excited about term limits and infrastructure funding

[Wrathbringer]

You're a fool. An honest to god fool. You have no idea how serious these things are, but you may be about to find out.

:lol:

[Gelston]

Well, I guess time4fun has been lying about how she makes so much money, because if she did there'd be no little brother problems. I'm guessing she is actually a Starbucks barista.

[Luftstreitkräfte]

That's just silly. Before the election, people, including the CIA, were worried that the Russians would use their cyber operations to secretly change the voting machines to give the election to Trump. We all know that didn't happen.

y 4 t00b b mean0?

[Gelston]

I'm almost ready to post up my election prediction map.

[Methais]

This is New Orleans today, courtesy of the tolerant left that doesn't have a racist bone in their body.

https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s526x395/14938096_10154346295437535_5590468146962604042_n.j pg?oh=6150347e783a86c34bd618be60e1d6af&oe=5886B57A

[Gelston]

This is New Orleans today, courtesy of the tolerant left that doesn't have a racist bone in their body.

https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s526x395/14938096_10154346295437535_5590468146962604042_n.j pg?oh=6150347e783a86c34bd618be60e1d6af&oe=5886B57A

How about checking your marketplace and notifications, asshole.

[Methais]

How about checking your marketplace and notifications, asshole.

wut

[Methais]

Pence has confirmed that they will be rolling back the recent Transgender protections.

Which is what exactly? Bathroom rules?

[Tgo01]

I'm super excited about term limits and infrastructure funding

It's really hard to tell if you're being sarcastic or not because you don't strike me as the type of person who would support anything Trump says, even if it's something you actually agree with.

[macgyver]

Little known fact: Abe Lincoln was more racist than Robert E. Lee ever was.

[Vorpos]

This is New Orleans today, courtesy of the tolerant left that doesn't have a racist bone in their body.

https://scontent-dft4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s526x395/14938096_10154346295437535_5590468146962604042_n.j pg?oh=6150347e783a86c34bd618be60e1d6af&oe=5886B57A

If you think that's bad take a look at this:

https://mobile.twitter.com/ArthurSchwartz/status/796559007506898945

[Neveragain]

I actually feel really sad for you. I can't imagine being so empty inside.

I make it personal policy to not allow feelings dictate logic. Your family created this problem, I have 0 remorse for your situation, I also have locks in my doors.... Kind of like borders.

[Headless]

I have claimed to be 'auto-elected by potential' for President of the U.S.A. on my Unifinity theory of 1=∞ ("No two things are alike, therefore no numbers past one can be proved except to demonstrate this formula.") and on the basis of my receiving at least a single vote for President. The White House hasn't fed me yet but I've requested they do.

[Thondalar]

If you think that's bad take a look at this:

https://mobile.twitter.com/ArthurSchwartz/status/796559007506898945

Once again, the party of love and tolerance shows their true colors. I'm trying to remember the last time we had riots in the streets when a Democrat was elected...Obama? Hmm, don't remember those. Clinton? Carter? Huh.

[Gelston]

Once again, the party of love and tolerance shows their true colors. I'm trying to remember the last time we had riots in the streets when a Democrat was elected...Obama? Hmm, don't remember those. Clinton? Carter? Huh.

No. Only deplorables don't take to the streets when they don't get their way.

[Methais]

If you think that's bad take a look at this:

https://mobile.twitter.com/ArthurSchwartz/status/796559007506898945

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/010/856/4fcdf2e118613355b500ba5d.jpg

[Shaps]

Do me a favor- don't act like the horrible situation we're in is somehow inevitable. You can dismiss the pain, you can act like a fun overseas romp of your own volition is akin to the fear of having your family ripped apart to placate the masses, and you can hypocritically mansplain to me about sacrifices you will never understand.

But don't you dare do all of that and have the nerve to say you wish my family well.

Because you don't.

You seriously are a self-righteous individual. I never said it was inevitable or acted like it was.

I never dismissed your pain, I only asked you to understand that others experience pain and sacrifice as you do.

If you consider 7 years overseas of combat, working in shit holes in Africa giving medical aid to the truly desperate, working in the Middle East ensuring that motherfuckers that chop peoples heads off for fun are brought to justice, not showering for 15+ days, eating shitty goat that we had to slaughter ourselves while cooking it in a sand pit, travelling to the Baltic regions to assist in rebuilding infrastructure and assisting their police force ensure the welfare of their people... an "overseas romp" or is not akin "to the fear of having your family ripped apart"...

Then just kiss my fucking ass. I'm sure the years I was overseas and my families fears of my potential death was a fucking cake walk. Don't be a self-righteous ass.

I've helped more people, cared for more children, built infrastructure and order, and seen some of the most horrific shit life can throw at someone. So yea... when you bitch about the fact your family may have to "live apart" for a couple of years to LEGALLY gain citizenship... shut the fuck up. I've definitely done more for complete strangers... than you apparently have done for your own brother in 20 years.

I wish your family well and will continue to.. regardless of your pretentious and selfish perspective. You really are a piece of work.

[Methais]

Oh and then there's this video of some old guy getting beat down and then robbed by black people because he voted for Trump.

https://www.facebook.com/KenWebsterJr/videos/2130282527197586/

So much tolerance.

[Methais]

Do me a favor- don't act like the horrible situation we're in is somehow inevitable. You can dismiss the pain, you can act like a fun overseas romp of your own volition is akin to the fear of having your family ripped apart to placate the masses, and you can hypocritically mansplain to me about sacrifices you will never understand.

But don't you dare do all of that and have the nerve to say you wish my family well.

Because you don't.

How about you take some of that "I make more than 10 of you put together" money, pay for your brother's bullshit, and then shut the fuck up?

Stupid entitled fucks like you aren't the victims, you're the problem.

[~Rocktar~]

Little known fact: Abe Lincoln was more racist than Robert E. Lee ever was.

Little known fact, they are both dead.

[~Rocktar~]

You seriously are a self-righteous individual. I never said it was inevitable or acted like it was.

I never dismissed your pain, I only asked you to understand that others experience pain and sacrifice as you do.

If you consider 7 years overseas of combat, working in shit holes in Africa giving medical aid to the truly desperate, working in the Middle East ensuring that motherfuckers that chop peoples heads off for fun are brought to justice, not showering for 15+ days, eating shitty goat that we had to slaughter ourselves while cooking it in a sand pit, travelling to the Baltic regions to assist in rebuilding infrastructure and assisting their police force ensure the welfare of their people... an "overseas romp" or is not akin "to the fear of having your family ripped apart"...

Thank you for your service and glad you got back alive.


. . . Don't be a self-righteous ass.

They can't help it, it's in their makeup since their parents coddled the shit out of them and they haven't had to deal with the real world before.

[Shaps]

Time4Fun,
Ready? I'm going to help your brother out more than you have so far. It will give him a good paying job (more than he makes now apparently), medical benefits, and a path to citizenship all in one... You ready?

https://www.uscis.gov/news/fact-sheets/naturalization-through-military-service-fact-sheet

See.. still helping people regardless of how asinine their relatives may be. I wish your Brother all the best.

[Shaps]

Time4Fun,
Ready? I'm going to help your brother out more than you have so far. It will give him a good paying job (more than he makes now apparently), medical benefits, and a path to citizenship all in one... You ready?

https://www.uscis.gov/news/fact-sheets/naturalization-through-military-service-fact-sheet

See.. still helping people regardless of how asinine their relatives may be. I wish your Brother all the best.

Hmm.. actually thinking about it with your Brothers medical condition (as you've expressed it) may not be possible, but I'm not a doctor so I can't speak to that really. But there are a number of waivers for all types of situations, so who knows nowadays. Especially if he has a computer background or skill where deployments are not necessary for many of the new positions the Government is trying to fill.

Either way, potentially something for him to look into.

[Nathala Crane]

I found this pretty insightful. https://medium.com/@SnoozeInBrief/an-analysis-of-donald-trumps-election-win-and-the-prospects-for-his-presidency-f6a87eef6d70#.6yg92x20d

[Tgo01]

I found this pretty insightful. https://medium.com/@SnoozeInBrief/an-analysis-of-donald-trumps-election-win-and-the-prospects-for-his-presidency-f6a87eef6d70#.6yg92x20d

I'll admit, I laughed.

[Parkbandit]

I knew the tears would flow and the salt would be real..

But this is downright entertaining.

[Vorpos]

I knew the tears would flow and the salt would be real..

But this is downright entertaining.

The best part is they are gonna cry for years. It won't stop anytime soon.

[Androidpk]

There isn't a single person who actually believed they weren't working together. Folks were happy to have a foreign power undermining on our democracy if it suited their political agenda.

This will change nothing unfortunately. We're in a very scary place in American politics right now.

In other news,

Guliani was on CNN talking about prosecuting Clinton (though I hear we was less than committal)

Omarosa was on CNN talking about the list of enemies that the Trump folks were making to punish people who didn't support him

Pence has confirmed that they will be rolling back the recent Transgender protections.

:lol2:

[Androidpk]

I'm almost ready to post up my election prediction map.

I'm waiting for you to post yours before I post mine. I don't want my super accurate prediction map to influence the outcome.

[Androidpk]

Little known fact, they are both dead.

This has not been proven in a court of law.

[drauz]

Oh and then there's this video of some old guy getting beat down and then robbed by black people because he voted for Trump.

https://www.facebook.com/KenWebsterJr/videos/2130282527197586/

So much tolerance.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?105310-Hillary-supporters-attack-homeless-black-woman&p=1897744#post1897744

Thats the video I linked that got removed for harassment and bullying...

[~Rocktar~]

This has not been proven in a court of law.

Pretty sure that both of their estates went through probate so yes it was.

[Methais]

Pretty sure that both of their estates went through probate so yes it was.

Why do you hate dead people?

[Gelston]

Not to mention that Lincoln had to be declared dead before Johnson officially became President.

[~Rocktar~]

Why do you hate dead people?

They vote Democrat.

[Back]

They vote Democrat.

Can you prove that?

[drauz]

Can you prove that?

http://www.richmond.com/news/virginia/article_e008ce00-0365-57a2-95c0-4d9aa70012f9.html

[mjc]

He's been here almost his entire life. He's worked and paid taxes. He didn't choose to come here, and it's not his fault that my step-dad wouldn't sign the paperwork. I'm not sure what the sin is here- is it that he didn't go back to a country he doesn't really know? That he chose to stay with his family? We couldn't afford to just pick up and move to the Philippines while paperwork was processing. Is the sin here that we didn't force him to go to a strange country to live on his own anyway?

Should our family be torn apart over that? Should he go somewhere where he may not be able to get proper medical care?

Maybe the world would be a better place if my family were broken up, and if I only got to see him a hand-full of times for the rest of my life. Maybe the world would be a better place if he just died of diabetes-related complications. We may very well find out soon.

Here's what I do know- not a single person reading this would have acted any differently than we did if they had found themselves in the same situation.

But given the conversation that has gone on in this thread- don't tell me that I shouldn't be up at night staring at the ceiling. This is the nightmare my family woke up to today. I hope our fear and our pain is buying you something wonderful.

I hate it for your family. I really do. However, Why should my family, as citizens, suffer (as they are) to supplement yours? I'm from a long line of hard working blue-collar workers. My parents sacrificed much to give me an education. I'm very sorry for you brother but that could have been dealt with long ago. It's not our fault. I take offense to anyone that thinks anything is due to them (when they are illegal and undocumented) and my family and I struggle to pay for our own insurance, etc. We are subsidizing your brother and others at our detriment.

My health insurance premium has tripled this past year and forget about copays! My out of pocket pay is such that if I really get sick, it won't even make a dent! So tell me, again, why I should care about the illegal and undocumented persons I am subsidizing?

[Warriorbird]

I hate it for your family. I really do. However, Why should my family, as citizens, suffer (as they are) to supplement yours? I'm from a long line of hard working blue-collar workers. My parents sacrificed much to give me an education. I'm very sorry for you brother but that could have been dealt with long ago. It's not our fault. I take offense to anyone that thinks anything is due to them (when they are illegal and undocumented) and my family and I struggle to pay for our own insurance, etc. We are subsidizing your brother and others at our detriment.

My health insurance premium has tripled this past year and forget about copays! My out of pocket pay is such that if I really get sick, it won't even make a dent! So tell me, again, why I should care about the illegal and undocumented persons I am subsidizing?

How's he being supplemented and subsidized?

[Tgo01]

How's he being supplemented and subsidized?

Oh boy, here come the arguments about how people here illegally aren't a drain on the resources of this country and coming from WB I suspect he'll take it a bit further and say illegals pay all taxes they would pay if they were here legally and don't use any resources so it's actually a net gain for the country!!

[mjc]

How's he being supplemented and subsidized?

She's already stated that he was.

[mjc]

Oh boy, here come the arguments about how people here illegally aren't a drain on the resources of this country and coming from WB I suspect he'll take it a bit further and say illegals pay all taxes they would pay if they were here legally and don't use any resources so it's actually a net gain for the country!!

Exactly!

[Warriorbird]

People are sensitive. I just asked a question. It always entertains me how conservatives will claim they don't use resources (they 'built it!') but immigrants do though.

[Stumplicker]

People are sensitive. I just asked a question. It always entertains me how conservatives will claim they don't use resources (they 'built it!') but immigrants do though.

http://www.fairus.org/publications/the-fiscal-burden-of-illegal-immigration-on-united-states-taxpayers

Adding on:

I should note that I'm not stating anything in support of or against mass deportations. Personally, I've always been of the mindset that we're all immigrants. Restricted immigration was only signed into law in 1921. It's a problem that needs to be dealt with, the illegal immigration situation, but I feel it could as easily, if not more easily, be dealt with in ways that forego mass deportations. I also feel that the US has spent money on much dumber things in much larger quantities that contribute to a lot of what illegal immigrants are now being solely blamed for, including, but not limited to pumping money into inefficient government programs with no oversight, spending 2 trillion dollars creating a power vacuum in the middle east, and reckless, unpunished banking practices that led to a global recession. Illegal immigrants are a problem, and they're a problem that needs to be dealt with one way or another, but they're not the sole reason for your skyrocketing healthcare costs. They're not the reason you make the same amount per hour as you did in 1995, yet your rent/mortgage has tripled. There are many problems facing the US, and immigrants are being used as a scapegoat in many cases.

[Tgo01]

People are sensitive. I just asked a question.

It's a question that doesn't really need to be asked. People here illegally are a drain on resources because...well they're here illegally! I mean it doesn't really get much more simple than that.

They either have a job they shouldn't have (they taking our jerbs!), or they aren't paying taxes, or they take advantage of emergency room visits then never pay the bill, or they take most/all of the money they earn in the US and send it back to their home country, or they do any combination of the above.

How can you possibly not already know all of this?

[Warriorbird]

http://www.fairus.org/publications/the-fiscal-burden-of-illegal-immigration-on-united-states-taxpayers


It's a question that doesn't really need to be asked. People here illegally are a drain on resources because...well they're here illegally! I mean it doesn't really get much more simple than that.

They either have a job they shouldn't have (they taking our jerbs!), or they aren't paying taxes, or they take advantage of emergency room visits then never pay the bill, or they take most/all of the money they earn in the US and send it back to their home country, or they do any combination of the above.

How can you possibly not already know all of this?

So people in a society actually use resources. Good thing to know. Maybe tax money is important.

Maybe we should convert these folks into tax paying citizens.

[Tgo01]

It always entertains me how conservatives will claim they don't use resources (they 'built it!') but immigrants do though.

Of course I use resources, but I'm here legally. I don't have a single problem with someone in this country legally using resources, even if they are sitting at home collecting social security all day. They did it the proper and legal way. Why is this so hard to understand from Liberals?

[Warriorbird]

Of course I use resources, but I'm here legally. I don't have a single problem with someone in this country legally using resources, even if they are sitting at home collecting social security all day. They did it the proper and legal way. Why is this so hard to understand from Liberals?

But you sure whined hard when our President said it... because reasons!

Once again, clearly our tax money has to pay for things. Clearly we ought to convert these folks into taxpayers.

[Tgo01]

Maybe we should convert these folks into tax paying citizens.

That would be great. In the meantime they can feel free to wait in their home country or apply for legal residence/legal work visas and do it the hard way like the tens of millions of people before them did.

But asking people to do things the hard/right way and to take personal responsibility seems to be a foreign concept to the left these days.

[Tgo01]

But you sure whined hard when our President said it... because reasons!

I said what now?

[Warriorbird]

I said what now?

"You didn't build that."


That would be great. In the meantime they can feel free to wait in their home country or apply for legal residence/legal work visas and do it the hard way like the tens of millions of people before them did.

But asking people to do things the hard/right way and to take personal responsibility seems to be a foreign concept to the left these days.

Now what if I told you that many foreign countries were staggeringly corrupt and we could do it far more efficiently and save our country money in the process.

Then again we might reduce that with less stupid drug laws but its more fun to wail about our cities.

[Stumplicker]

So people in a society actually use resources. Good thing to know. Maybe tax money is important.

Maybe we should convert these folks into tax paying citizens.

I have a habit of posting and then immediately going in and editing more thoughts. I should wait a minute before posting in the future to figure out if I have anything else I want to add. I should, but I won't. Anyway, I agree that converting illegal immigrants to taxpaying citizens is one route to fix the issue. Here's what I added on to my other post:


Adding on:

I should note that I'm not stating anything in support of or against mass deportations. Personally, I've always been of the mindset that we're all immigrants. Restricted immigration was only signed into law in 1921. It's a problem that needs to be dealt with, the illegal immigration situation, but I feel it could as easily, if not more easily, be dealt with in ways that forego mass deportations. I also feel that the US has spent money on much dumber things in much larger quantities that contribute to a lot of what illegal immigrants are now being solely blamed for, including, but not limited to pumping money into inefficient government programs with no oversight, spending 2 trillion dollars creating a power vacuum in the middle east, and reckless, unpunished banking practices that led to a global recession. Illegal immigrants are a problem, and they're a problem that needs to be dealt with one way or another, but they're not the sole reason for your skyrocketing healthcare costs. They're not the reason you make the same amount per hour as you did in 1995, yet your rent/mortgage has tripled. There are many problems facing the US, and immigrants are being used as a scapegoat in many cases.

[Tgo01]

"You didn't build that."

What exactly do you think you're proving? What? It's like you're seeing some sort of great argument that no one else sees.

I never claimed to build hospitals or schools, I'm not sure how this ties into Obama telling businesses that they didn't build their own businesses.


Now what if I told you that many foreign countries were staggeringly corrupt and we could do it far more efficiently and save our country money in the process.

I really think you've lost your mind since Trump won the presidency. Don't worry, I heard some professionals were offering their services for free to people dealing with the Trump trauma.

[Warriorbird]

I have a habit of posting and then immediately going in and editing more thoughts. I should wait a minute before posting in the future to figure out if I have anything else I want to add. I should, but I won't. Anyway, I agree that converting illegal immigrants to taxpaying citizens is one route to fix the issue. Here's what I added on to my other post:


Adding on:

I should note that I'm not stating anything in support of or against mass deportations. Personally, I've always been of the mindset that we're all immigrants. Restricted immigration was only signed into law in 1921. It's a problem that needs to be dealt with, the illegal immigration situation, but I feel it could as easily, if not more easily, be dealt with in ways that forego mass deportations. I also feel that the US has spent money on much dumber things in much larger quantities that contribute to a lot of what illegal immigrants are now being solely blamed for, including, but not limited to pumping money into inefficient government programs with no oversight, spending 2 trillion dollars creating a power vacuum in the middle east, and reckless, unpunished banking practices that led to a global recession. Illegal immigrants are a problem, and they're a problem that needs to be dealt with one way or another, but they're not the sole reason for your skyrocketing healthcare costs. They're not the reason you make the same amount per hour as you did in 1995, yet your rent/mortgage has tripled. There are many problems facing the US, and immigrants are being used as a scapegoat in many cases.

I do the same thing with edits. I certainly couldn't complain about you doing it.

I don't disagree with much of what you wrote... and honestly I think one of the biggest problems with mass deportations is they'll just come back.


What exactly do you think you're proving? What? It's like you're seeing some sort of great argument that no one else sees.

I never claimed to build hospitals or schools, I'm not sure how this ties into Obama telling businesses that they didn't build their own businesses.

This explains what he was saying to a bunch of thickheaded people. Residents use resources in a society. Therefore we ought to convert the people who use resources into taxpayers if we're troubled with their resource use. Foolishly deporting them (when they'll probably return and many foreign countries are staggeringly corrupt and demand bribes to get on our lists) is counterproductive.

Then we have some ad hominem because you couldn't follow. Classy. Logical.

[mjc]

So people in a society actually use resources. Good thing to know. Maybe tax money is important.

Maybe we should convert these folks into tax paying citizens.

Give me a fucking break. You know EXACTLY what I'm talking about! Why must you be so dense to try to achieve your means?

[mjc]

I have a habit of posting and then immediately going in and editing more thoughts. I should wait a minute before posting in the future to figure out if I have anything else I want to add. I should, but I won't. Anyway, I agree that converting illegal immigrants to taxpaying citizens is one route to fix the issue. Here's what I added on to my other post:


Adding on:

I should note that I'm not stating anything in support of or against mass deportations. Personally, I've always been of the mindset that we're all immigrants. Restricted immigration was only signed into law in 1921. It's a problem that needs to be dealt with, the illegal immigration situation, but I feel it could as easily, if not more easily, be dealt with in ways that forego mass deportations. I also feel that the US has spent money on much dumber things in much larger quantities that contribute to a lot of what illegal immigrants are now being solely blamed for, including, but not limited to pumping money into inefficient government programs with no oversight, spending 2 trillion dollars creating a power vacuum in the middle east, and reckless, unpunished banking practices that led to a global recession. Illegal immigrants are a problem, and they're a problem that needs to be dealt with one way or another, but they're not the sole reason for your skyrocketing healthcare costs. They're not the reason you make the same amount per hour as you did in 1995, yet your rent/mortgage has tripled. There are many problems facing the US, and immigrants are being used as a scapegoat in many cases.

Let's be clear....I said nothing about deportations. We were and all immigrants at some point. However, if you're here and want to stay, become a citizen.

[Fallen]

Who knew politics could be so divisive?

[time4fun]

Give me a fucking break. You know EXACTLY what I'm talking about! Why must you be so dense to try to achieve your means?

Actually, most undocumented immigrants DO pay taxes. Here's the bitter truth- I know that everyone thinks that every undocumented immigrant is from Mexico and works in a field (NOT that those are somehow inferior human beings), but actually most are on payrolls and have payroll taxes taken out of their paychecks.

They pay for social security, medicare, medicaid...things they will never benefit from.

They're already tax payers. And they take less than your average citizen.

[Warriorbird]

Let's be clear....I said nothing about deportations. We were and all immigrants at some point. However, if you're here and want to stay, become a citizen.

I just think we should establish some provisions to assist that process to prevent those mass deportations.


Who knew politics could be so divisive?

John Adams and Thomas Jefferson?

[Stumplicker]

Let's be clear....I said nothing about deportations. We were and all immigrants at some point. However, if you're here and want to stay, become a citizen.

I didn't say anything about deportations either, and I wasn't trying to insinuate that you were. When it comes down to it, we're all in agreement here. We're just not in agreement in some cases as to the best solution. That's primarily what conservative vs. liberal is all about, with a few obvious lines in the sand, of course.

One of the horribly inefficient systems we currently have in the US is the immigration system itself. It's a nightmare to get through, and can take years. I've got no personal experience; just the experience of a number of Chinese immigrants I work with. An average person with no connections is going to have a hell of a time getting through that system. It's hard enough to get sponsored work visas for people we need to get into the country in the case of one of my clients. It needs an overhaul, or god forbid I say it lest someone get angry, privatization, before we can call on it as a legitimate option to send people through. Make it about the money, and the efficiency will follow. To go back to time4fun's example, I wouldn't wish that system on her brother, or anyone else in any family, illegal or not.

There are a lot of ways to address the problem. The fear a lot of undocumented workers have is that mass deportation or imprisonment is on the table, and I don't think without overhauls of a number of other systems, either one of those is going to be good for anyone, or save any money.

[mjc]

[QUOTE=Warriorbird;1898272]I just think we should establish some provisions to assist that process to prevent those mass deportations.[/QUOk


Ok. Well, I DO think there should be provisions for ones that are here. That would require an action on their part. I would hope they would abide the requirements. It shouldn't be a "because I said so" thing. All countries have requirements for citizenship. I find it funny that those concerned haven't bothered with it all this time.

[time4fun]

The real question.... why is she legal, and he is illegal? Is she an anchor baby? Did she get a green card and he didn't? Why hasn't he tried to become a citizen?

Also.. do you regularly ignore other crimes people commit?

And why are you worried? Is your brother a criminal who has committed a felony? Because even Trump said he isn't going to deport every illegal. But he will deport every criminal.


And... lastly... you are a piece of shit for not having already helped him become a citizen. Unless of course he DOESN'T want to be one because, he along with you, HATE America.

At one point in time, I thought you were a good person.

You have demonstrated that you're what you accused me of. Partially for being unwilling to read full posts- which described why he's undocumented and the ways I tried to help. And partially for taking as your primary point from all of this how horrible the family members of people like my brother are. Again- be human. Be something better than this.

[Gelston]

At one point in time, I thought you were a good person.

You have demonstrated that you're what you accused me of. Partially for being unwilling to read full posts- which described why he's undocumented and the ways I tried to help. And partially for taking as your primary point from all of this how horrible the family members of people like my brother are. Again- be human. Be something better than this.

I think your blind intolerance to the views, wants, and wishes of other people and your general proclivity to call them "stupid", "racist", "sexist" or any other negative word has led to people not bothering to read the full context of your posts. This, again, is something you've brought upon yourself.

[mjc]

I didn't say anything about deportations either, and I wasn't trying to insinuate that you were. When it comes down to it, we're all in agreement here. We're just not in agreement in some cases as to the best solution. That's primarily what conservative vs. liberal is all about, with a few obvious lines in the sand, of course.

One of the horribly inefficient systems we currently have in the US is the immigration system itself. It's a nightmare to get through, and can take years. I've got no personal experience; just the experience of a number of Chinese immigrants I work with. An average person with no connections is going to have a hell of a time getting through that system. It's hard enough to get sponsored work visas for people we need to get into the country in the case of one of my clients. It needs an overhaul, or god forbid I say it lest someone get angry, privatization, before we can call on it as a legitimate option to send people through. Make it about the money, and the efficiency will follow. To go back to time4fun's example, I wouldn't wish that system on her brother, or anyone else in any family, illegal or not.

There are a lot of ways to address the problem. The fear a lot of undocumented workers have is that mass deportation or imprisonment is on the table, and I don't think without overhauls of a number of other systems, either one of those is going to be good for anyone, or save any money.

Then we agree. I don't actually know, personally, any of them. I don't want to throw ANYONE to the wolves (not anyone). I DON"T. I am a very level-headed, compassionate person (when not drinking). I just know what my family and I are dealing with with insurance premiums and out of cost. Maybe others don't see that as a problem, but when our citizens (including our veterans) are doing without because of the illegal and undocumented, that MUST be addressed. It is a problem.

[mjc]

[QUOTE=Warriorbird;1898272]I just think we should establish some provisions to assist that process to prevent those mass deportations.

Oh, so do I!

[mjc]

Actually, most undocumented immigrants DO pay taxes. Here's the bitter truth- I know that everyone thinks that every undocumented immigrant is from Mexico and works in a field (NOT that those are somehow inferior human beings), but actually most are on payrolls and have payroll taxes taken out of their paychecks.

They pay for social security, medicare, medicaid...things they will never benefit from.

They're already tax payers. And they take less than your average citizen.

I'm still subsidizing their insurance.

[Stumplicker]

Then we agree. I don't actually know, personally, any of them. I don't want to throw ANYONE to the wolves (not anyone). I DON"T. I am a very level-headed, compassionate person (when not drinking). I just know what my family and I are dealing with with insurance premiums and out of cost. Maybe others don't see that as a problem, but when our citizens (including our veterans) are doing without because of the illegal and undocumented, that MUST be addressed. It is a problem.

Sure sure. It's a problem that definitely will help if we solve it, but take into account the numbers too. It's far from the only problem, and definitely nowhere near the largest. Highest estimates put the cost of illegal immigrants at around 100 billion per year, on a budget on 3.8 trillion. If we waved a magic wand and solved it tomorrow, and the cost went to zero for illegal immigration, that's 2.6% of the budget freed up, to be spread out between bailing out healthcare, education, veteran benefits, transportation and road upkeep, and a dozen or more other systems in dire need of reform and repair. Don't get me wrong, it can and should happen to free up that 2.6%, but the prevailing sentiment seems to be that illegal immigrants have caused all our problems, even from the way you worded your post there. 100 billion per year will not fix education, or veterans benefits, or social security, or the F-35 project, or obscene levels of military spending, or spiraling healthcare costs, or banking regulation, and it wasn't the cause of the problems with any of those things. It's a number we need to get off our books, for sure, but there's a lot more going on than just illegal immigrants. Now we have a President Elect whose primary platform to court certain groups of voters was "All your problems are caused by Mexicans", and even in this thread we have a lot of the "You're going to prison" "Your brother is a felon" and "Get the hell out" going on. And almost 30 pages of people in a frothing rage at someone who dared say that someone in their family was an immigrant, and they were scared as a result.

That's a problem.