New(ish) Rogue

[Rutilcaper]

It happens every time. After a couple years I want to come back to Gemstone, just to see what's up.

So here I am again. I last played about a year ago, so I'm aware of some changes and I've been reading documentation, but if there's anything really notable that people think is worth knowing feel free to edify me.

Here's my attempt at a rogue:

Dark Elf

STR: 85
CON: 60
DEX: 75
AGL: 65
DIS: 70
AUR: 70
LOG: 65
INT: 50
WIS: 65
INF: 55

Not TOO sure about the placement of stats, I've heard Wisdom isn't important for boxes anymore. Mental stats seem a little high, but read on:

Armor 1x
Shield 2x
Edged 2x
Brawling 2x
CM 2x
Ambush 2x
PF 1x
Dodging 2x
Disarm 3x
Picking 3x
Hiding 1x
Perception 3x
First Aid 1x

Now remember this is based on my possibly dated understanding of the game, so correct me if I've made mistakes.

First and foremost. Is brawling still all but worthless except for Voln-Fu? Last I'd played I tooled around with the "new" brawling weapons, but wasn't too impressed with the damage they did versus an actual sword. I'd LOVE to be able to field pick semi-safely, and if brawling doesn't suck now I'd be glad to drop Edged. However, I don't think I REALLY want to do both because of my next two points:

1) Wanna get somes spells in. Not quick, not fast, but I want to get 403/404. I doubt I'll play long enough to get 411, but who knows (At what, like level 44 or so)

2) I'm seriously considering not doing Voln (or the other secret society, if that's still around). Voln is fun at all, but it makes a game that's sort of like a job even MORE like a job and, damn, every time I play I do Voln. For once I'd like to kill thraks/manticores instead of mummies, et cetera. Plus I REALLY hate resting in the crypt. Hooray for boorish pickpocketers!

So that's my proposal! Constructive criticism gladly accepted!

[Brattt8525]

Knock down the CM to 1X bump up the hiding to 2X

[Alarke]

Plus I REALLY hate resting in the crypt. Hooray for boorish pickpocketers!


Well then you'll be glad to know the crypt has been perma-sancted similarly to TSC.

[Rutilcaper]

Originally posted by Brattt8525
Knock down the CM to 1X bump up the hiding to 2X

How useful would you say this is? When last I played I remember 1x Hide/Ambush being good enough for the casual ambusher, whereas 2x CM is an extra AS per level and more of these whacky new CM manuvers (which can translate into essentially permament extra AS via Weapon Specialization?)

News about the crypt is awesome. Nothing I loved more than level 30+ lords repeatedly pickpocketing my level 6 wuss.

[Brattt8525]

1X hiding won't let you hide from most critters in my expiernce, hell I am a bit over 2X and some still find me or see me attempt at hiding. I have read that the 2X cm isn't worth the extra points, I would put them in hiding but we each have our own ideas on what we want

[Alarke]

I would highly suggest at LEAST 2x hiding for rogues.. if you're really set on 2x CM drop the second weapon.

[Drew]

Originally posted by Rutilcaper
How useful would you say this is? When last I played I remember 1x Hide/Ambush being good enough for the casual ambusher

Not really for a rogue, works for a ranger and possibly bards and warriors. CM is less useful than hiding in the end-run. Just think, would you rather have an extra 25 points of AS over 50 levels or be able to pushdown 150 points of critter DS with reliable ambushing?

[Rutilcaper]

That's a very fair point.

Basically I'm gonna drop either Brawling or Edged, which will allow me to 2x in CM, hiding and maybe Ambushing. Is there an appreciable gain to 2xing in Ambushing?

This will also leave me with slightly more TP to put towards spells, allowing maybe a .20 spell regimen.

So I guess the question is, are brawling weapons at all worthwhile or do they still have the DF equivalent of a wet paper towel? Like I said, it'd be nice to pick with an empty hand out in the field (and Voln-Fu if I go that way), but I just can't see it being a necessity if OHE is still markedly better.

[Drew]

Do you really positively have to do 3x lockpicking skills instead of 2x? That really ties up a lot of points.

[Xenostrus]

Figure out whether you want your rogue to primarly be a picker, hunter, or balanced and then you'll get better input on how to train your rogue.

If your going the hunter route then drop brawling and get more hiding and armor use. As a rogue I think you should do more than just 1xing armor use. You could also drop lockpicking and disarm to just 2x or just drop them all together. You could put those extra tp's into scroll/MIU or maybe even the first 10 spells of the minor elemental list.

P.S.- shield/ edged REALLY REALLY sucks unless the edged weapon is VHC weighted or higher.

[Rutilcaper]

Mmm. Remember I'm basing this on somewhat old info. Last I remember the Roguishness, 2x was for the ability to mostly be able pick your own boxes, 3x gives you a little edge. It seemed worth it for the TPs. Is this not the case?

If so, are 3x Disarm and Perception largely useless too?

EDIT: OHE/Shield sucks? Wow. That's a slap in the face. It used to be that that was basically the only way to go.

Am I to assume that preference is going to archery and TWC nowadays? Don't know if I have a lot of interest in either...

[Edited on 12-7-2004 by Rutilcaper]

[Nakiro]

TWC, straightup brawl (if in voln), THE and ranged are all fairly viable.

[Xenostrus]

Polearms, Two-handed weapons, and in some cases archery is the way to go nowadays. Imagine hacking at a critter or player for a good 5 (yes im exaggerating) minutes and doing the same amount of damage a polearm or twohanded weapon could have done in one or two swings. Especially with redux, good luck trying to hurt a warrior with a regular edged weapon.

[Drew]

Rogues should almost always avoid polearms, they just don't go well with ambushing which is a mainstay of the profession. There's almost no reason to play a polearm rogue over a polearm warrior.

[Xenostrus]

Oh yes, ambushing and polearms dont do good together. I hear you cant even ambush with a polearm. I've seen plenty of rogues go the Two-handed Weapon route or wield two weapons. I find they are more effective at hunting than shield/ ohe rogues. But the shield does have its defensive bonuses so each has its pros and cons.

[Drew]

Yeah, you can't ambush from hiding with a two handed polearm. You can aim from the open but that's not nearly as good because of lack of pushdown and crit adders.


Two handed hits like a ton of bricks and is very doable, but OHE/shield does still work, just not as well as in the past.

[Czeska]

My rogue is fully trained in hide and ambush, as well as locks and disarm. She can pick double her level for the most part (she's 28 and picks boxes from 50ish critters w/o lore). She is OHE/shield because I had it and disn't want to learn ranged. She uses a 5x longsword and a +27 shield and does fine.

I wouldn't go hide/ambush without being fully trained. Same with locks and traps, because I pick for more than just myself. I am, however, skipping all magic skills for her. So I have the tp's to do everything else I want.

[Rutilcaper]

All your replies have been very helpful. Thanks! :)

It's a shame OHE got pushed down, I remember when that was the end-all-be-all. I'm going to assume that OHB sucks as much as it ever did? My longest running character was a Cleric with OHB (curse my D&D roots) and it was absolutely embarassing how bad he was. Even when I got the eonake (+20 sanct?) ball and chain, things just were terrible.

I've been hearing good things about Katars. People say they have a similar DF to falchions (always good). They seem to be a popular TWC choice.

I'm not all too interested in THE. I think if I were going to go that way I'd do a Warrior. So I guess it's either going to be back to brawling for me or I'll give TWC an attempt. It'll be a shame to lose the shield... we'll see.

Thanks again!

[Edited on 12-10-2004 by Rutilcaper]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Rutilcaper
News about the crypt is awesome. Nothing I loved more than level 30+ lords repeatedly pickpocketing my level 6 wuss.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Boo fucking hoo. It's called use a bank. It's called hide. It's called ring in / ring out. It's called "Don't go to sleep while you are full of silvers".

The perma sanct at the crypt, dais and TSC came about because there is a GM who was too fucking lazy to move to the bank and deposit her silvers and so she simply coded the bullshit sanctuaries to help her character avoid losing silvers / gems.

As far as your training plan goes.. don't let anyone tell you that ohe is bad. They are the most enchanted weapon class in the game, so the availability of a high enchanted ohe is pretty good. Falgrin is extremely effective with a ohe/shield training plan.

Like someone said before, you need to determine what you want your rogue to be.. a great hunter, a great picker or good at both. If you want to be a great picker, you need to 3x locksmithing and get your 4 spells asap. If you simply want to pick effectively and still want to be a good hunter.. 2x with spells later on is MORE than sufficient.

[Rutilcaper]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
[quote]Boo fucking hoo. It's called use a bank. It's called hide. It's called ring in / ring out. It's called "Don't go to sleep while you are full of silvers".

Okay, I'm not going to start a whole big argument, but I will say this:

I play this game to have fun. When someone who steals from me just to increase the size of their e-penis it irritates me. Then they hide behind the shield of roleplaying. There are plenty of ways to roleplay that don't involve negatively impacting someone's experience of the game. You can roleplay being a jerk without actually BEING a jerk.

Yes, you can ring in and out. You can hide. But I'm tired of people putting the onus of responsibility on ME. I've said this before, sometimes this game is like a job. Every time I have to make sure my pack is closed, leave the room when I want to pick chests, constantly typing INFO to make sure nobody's stealing from me impinges upon my ability to have fun with the game. Stealing my 2k does nothing for him but it does EVERYTHING for me.

We're both paying $15 for this game. Why should the thief want to ruin my fun?

Common courtesy is noticably absent in so many factors of the internet. In a community of players that most times nowadays numbers less than a thousand you'd think people would be a little more polite to each other.

But anonymity is a bitch.

That's my view on it. You're entitled to yours and I've said my peace.

EDIT: Your advice, however, is extremely enheartening. I'm glad to know it isn't worthless. I grew up with gemstone at a time where not having a shield just seemed odd, at least to me, giving up 40 or more DS. Maybe things have changed now, but it's nice to know that the old standbys are still workable.

[Edited on 12-7-2004 by Rutilcaper]

[Xenostrus]

That....was some deep shit.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Rutilcaper
Okay, I'm not going to start a whole big argument, but I will say this:

I play this game to have fun. When someone who steals from me just to increase the size of their e-penis it irritates me. Then they hide behind the shield of roleplaying. There are plenty of ways to roleplay that don't involve negatively impacting someone's experience of the game. You can roleplay being a jerk without actually BEING a jerk.

Yes, you can ring in and out. You can hide. But I'm tired of people putting the onus of responsibility on ME. I've said this before, sometimes this game is like a job. Every time I have to make sure my pack is closed, leave the room when I want to pick chests, constantly typing INFO to make sure nobody's stealing from me impinges upon my ability to have fun with the game. Stealing my 2k does nothing for him but it does EVERYTHING for me.

We're both paying $15 for this game. Why should the thief want to ruin my fun?

Common courtesy is noticably absent in so many factors of the internet. In a community of players that most times nowadays numbers less than a thousand you'd think people would be a little more polite to each other.

But anonymity is a bitch.

That's my view on it. You're entitled to yours and I've said my peace.




My suggestion to you would be not to play a roleplaying game if in fact you only want huggy wuggy sweet friends to play with and you want to pick and choose the individuals you get to interact with. If a couple silvers are that important to you, you have the complete responsibility to secure those precious silvers and the complete ability to do so.

Once you realize that stealing is part of the game and realize that it's only a game and realize that the 34 silvers that were stolen from you really makes zero difference in the grande scheme of things.. you will enjoy yourself so much more.

[Rutilcaper]

Let me say I'm not ipso facto against pickpocketing and, yes, 34 silvers. Or 100 silvers or even 500 silvers is not really all that much in the long run.

My problem is with people ten times my level housing my pocket without me getting a second glance, saying I'm lying on the off chance that I actually SEE them do it (I guess 3x perception is good for something) and then KILLING me. This is not an isolated occurrence, but most of it WAS centered around one guy (Started with a Q, hung around the crypt).

I think that shows a certain lack of concern for your common man to indulge in that kind of behavior and it sure as hell isn't roleplaying. Feel free to roleplay an asshole, just don't do it in a way that impacts on other people's fun. I once had sorcerrors cast that massive spell (Dark Catalyst? It's been awhile) on me for no reason. Never even met the guy.

And, frankly, the idea of roleplaying in this game is just as lacking as people who play this game think Final Fantasy VII is. "Guntar smiles and drinks his ale" and a pithy accent do not a roleplayer make. I don't indulge in Gemstone for roleplaying. If I wanted to roleplay, there's a host of MUCKs, MUSHes and MOOs that would appeal to my sensibility much better. Maybe things are different now, maybe all the roleplayers cloister themselves in the high level areas and never see the light of day or a character under 40 trains, but injecting accents from three different time periods into your speech doesn't give you prerogative to PK someone at your whim.

It's my opinion that pickpocketing should have some sort of level restriction, just so you can't annihilate players a lower level than you just for fun. You don't get experience for creatures too low, you don't get reps for easy boxes, why should you get money from targets that are so low you can steal from them twenty times in a row before they even have a devil's whisker of a chance to see you do it.

I think Gemstone is an excellent game with tons of opportunities. I spent a year playing Final Fantasy XI with a group of friends and it STUNK. All I could think about was how much better Gemstone was in every way. I don't want to disparage the whole community, certainly not all the helpful souls here who are guiding an old player back on the path, but there's bad apples and maybe the system doesn't need to be changed, but I think a reform would be nice.

But, really, I'll stop. These type of arguments never benefit anyone, right?

Friends? :)

[Drew]

Once you realize that *your character* is losing pieces of text and that you *the player* haven't been harmed in any way you will be that much further on your path to playing an interesting role and not an interesting avatar. Taking it personally will only ruin your enjoyment of a game where nothing should be taken personal because it's not directed at you, it's directed at your character.


This coming from a guy who doesn't have a character who can steal.

[iohova]

simply put: if you dont want to be stolen from, either deposit your fundage, or go someplace that you cant be stolen from.
nuff said.

opening boxes, guild reps, etc... those all help you gain experience, thats why theyre level-based. stealing isnt.

it seriously doesnt take that long to go rest someplace else, or go deposit your funds. write a script if you need to make the travel time shorter.

[Thysan]

OHE is very effective with 2x Ambush and 2x Picking Skills with lore will you allow you to pick 10 levels above you up to around level 50. Even with an unweighted weapon, a falchion to the leg and then the head/neck and the critter is done.

[AnticorRifling]

I do the ohe/shield route and I have no problems.

(at level 28), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 134 37
Shield Use.........................| 120 30
Combat Maneuvers...................| 126 33
Edged Weapons......................| 160 60
Ambush.............................| 158 58
Physical Fitness...................| 120 30
Dodging............................| 158 58
Harness Power......................| 35 7
Disarming Traps....................| 158 58
Picking Locks......................| 187 87
Stalking and Hiding................| 158 58
Perception.........................| 158 58
Climbing...........................| 50 10
Swimming...........................| 50 10
Pickpocketing......................| 158 58

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 4
Training Points: 12 Phy 5 Mnt

[Artha]

This is how I have Aone set up, two handed ambusher. Able to skin for money, but doesn't pick or steal.

Armor: 30 ranks
CM: 1.5x
THW: 2x
Ambush: 1x
PF: 1.5x
Dodging: 3x
HP: 1 rank
Survival: 1x
Hiding: 2x
Perception: 1x
Climbing: 15 ranks by 30ish
First Aid: 1x
Trading: 15 ranks by 40

[Fengus]

Aone's THW set isn't bad, that differs much from the OHE but notably in that you need to sacrifice more (no picking, few extra skills). You need to think more about dodge, which in turn will ultimately determine your armor choice (heavier armor is more restrictive to dodge). You can get away with less ambush and perception since aimed shots are not as critical. So much of the THW set wouldn't work for OHE.

Something to consider with OHE is that to maximize DS there is a balance you can reach with shield and dodge depending on the sort of shield you decide to use. Larger shields will adversely effect your dodge performance, so you would spend more heavily in shields, and vice versa for smaller shields like bucklers.

Personally I would let the semis play with shields, THW and TWC are the most viable and fun routes for rogues.

Another hold over from long ago is the falchion worship, its no longer the end all for weapons, a dagger in a skilled ambushers hands can be very effective. I had lots of fun playing shortsword/gauche TWCer a while ago.

[drigore]

(at level 71), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 180 80
Shield Use.........................| 172 72
Combat Maneuvers...................| 244 144
Edged Weapons......................| 244 144
Ambush.............................| 244 144
Physical Fitness...................| 172 72
Dodging............................| 244 144
Arcane Symbols.....................| 105 25
Magic Item Use.....................| 120 30
Harness Power......................| 50 10
Stalking and Hiding................| 313 213
Perception.........................| 243 143
Climbing...........................| 130 35
Swimming...........................| 105 25

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 7

Went the self sufficient war rogue route. Works well for me.