Wyrom - Breakage

[macgyver]

I'm donning my 10x flame resistant plate right now as I write this, but I think this is a very important issue that needs to be put to rest. I haven't found a final answer, just speculation and allusion to a decision, so I would formally like to ask what is your personal take on breakage, Wyrom? If, heaven forbid, the answer is "yes" then to what degree are we talking about? Permanent or no? A timeframe on when we can see it implemented?

A snippet from the original reasoning behind breakage - A blast from the past! GM Brauden!

Breakage is intended to reintroduce item attrition, which was originally part of the more balanced design of the game, but lost when the breakage system was temporarily discontinued (a situation which lasted far longer than originally intended). This will be accomplished in a number of ways. Breakage will force the more realistic refreshing of combat-oriented items, as well as offer more complexity in hunting choices, throughout the game. Item degradation and catastrophic failure will result in a modest rate of item attrition, especially of items which are not properly maintained. Some attrition will be a result of players choosing not to use keepsake items or artifacts in combat, but save them for roleplaying purposes only. Item attrition will also come from the breakage mechanics themselves. This turnover of gear is sorely needed in order for us to be able to introduce new items into the game, counter hyperinflation, introduce new strategies and choices in hunting, and to make balanced hunting areas and creatures more widespread, especially at higher levels.

As many more powerful items eventually break, combined with limitations on the availability of repair of catastrophically broken items, there will be a constant turnover of a varying amount of hunting gear. Because of the strong sentimental and historical attachment expressed by many players, items will remain in the game as non-combat functional 'props', even after catastrophic failure. These items will retain their appearance, but will be unusable in combat. Thus, the reimplementation of breakage will not sacrifice the hard work and dedication that many players have invested in acquiring customized items that best suit and add to their character.

The introduction of powerful items has been severely limited because those items were likely to exist indefinitely, except for the tiny percentage lost through accidents. With the assurance that a steady stream of combat-oriented items will be leaving the game, it will be possible to begin reintroducing a greater number of relatively powerful items. The balancing fact, of course, is that many of these new items will eventually be cycled through the system if used regularly. The usage-based deterioration that breakage employs will allow items to be balanced not only by their combat abilities, but also by their expected longevity. This added dimension opens the door for Gamemasters to release relatively powerful items into the game in greater numbers than is presently possible. We expect to begin releasing some more powerful items after about thirty days, which will allow us time to gather data and continually tune the system if need be.

As a result of items requiring some upkeep and carrying some risk of breakage, rather than representing a one-time permanent investment, a moderate amount of deflation is expected to counter the current hyper-inflated prices common in today's player-to-player sales. Items that are regularly used in combat will, in essence, have an estimated lifespan, depending on their strength and durability. We expect that players will not be quite so willing to part with massive amounts of silver demanded for any 'good' item right now. With the ability to reintroduce such items, because they will be cycled through the game via breakage, many 'good' items will again be available for purchase via Gamemaster merchant shops, which typically have a significantly lower price than the player-to-player market does.

Along with the possibility of item attrition, there is also a guarantee that continued investment will be required to maintain and repair items after the initial purchase, in proportion to how much the item is actually used in combat. Whether the investment is through fees paid to NPC-run shops, or through the purchase of repair kits, the constant cost of use will help to control inflation and alleviate stockpiling of silver. Currently, far more silver is constantly entering the game via the treasure system than is leaving the game, which results in a self-feeding spiral effect that drives the inflation of silver prices for anything but the most basic equipment at an absurd rate.

The reintroduction of breakage will also bring a new dimension to hunting and strategy. Just as with the lockpicking system, players will begin to evaluate their equipment more stringently, rather than simply always going armed and armored in their best equipment. Breakage will force a more flexible dynamic into the strategies of hunting and choosing hunting gear. Do you risk your best weapon in an area where the creatures are heavily armored, or do you choose something a little less powerful but more stout? Do you wear your best armor in an area where the creatures carry destructive weapons, or do you shift into something sturdier but less protective and explore other tactics for dealing with the creature?

As a result of all of these facets of breakage, it will be easier to balance hunting areas and the abilities of creatures, instead of having to modify them to compensate for an elevated average quality of equipment. Not having to engage in that series of tweaks, in an attempt to balance the challenge a creature presents, will allow characters who do not choose to invest countless hours in obtaining the finest in armor and weaponry to be on a far more even playing field.
The motivation for the reimplementation of breakage is to begin to balance aspects of Gemstone III that have become difficult to manage without the originally intended item attrition, and above all to create a better gaming experience for all our players.

Brauden


P.S. I am ready.

https://www.sayanythingblog.com/files/2015/05/ezgif.com-gif-maker.gif

[Warriorbird]

GMs I don't miss.

[Methais]

GMs I don't miss.

Brauden was up right there on the dickhead scale with Emeradan and Andraste.

On topic: Don't worry about breakage. It will never happen. And even if it did, the "replacement" items would probably be exclusive to pay events.

Simu is stupid and Simu is greedy, but I think even they know where to draw the line. Sometimes anyway.

[macgyver]

Brauden was up right there on the dickhead scale with Emeradan and Andraste.

On topic: Don't worry about breakage. It will never happen. And even if it did, the "replacement" items would probably be exclusive to pay events.

Simu is stupid and Simu is greedy, but I think even they know where to draw the line. Sometimes anyway.

I'm almost 100% certain you are right. But I would still like to pick Wyrom's mind. Like with most people he's also almost 100% sure that breakage will never happen but there's always that 1% doubt gremlin hiding deep in the back of his mind whispering..."maybe you should... maybe... maybe."

[Wyrom]

Item attrition is something I am a fan of, but only when it's common and across the board. But I am not a fan of it when someone spends thousands of dollars to boost an item via an event and loses their item. That said, pure breakage has no place in GemStone IV anymore. I wouldn't mind seeing breakage/repair be just upkeep to an item (nothing is ever destroyed permanently). But adding more tedium to GS is not the right direction.

[Warriorbird]

Item attrition is something I am a fan of, but only when it's common and across the board. But I am not a fan of it when someone spends thousands of dollars to boost an item via an event and loses their item. That said, pure breakage has no place in GemStone IV anymore. I wouldn't mind seeing breakage/repair be just upkeep to an item (nothing is ever destroyed permanently). But adding more tedium to GS is not the right direction.

Pretty much what I expected. I like the item based economy it lets develop too.

[macgyver]

Item attrition is something I am a fan of, but only when it's common and across the board. But I am not a fan of it when someone spends thousands of dollars to boost an item via an event and loses their item. That said, pure breakage has no place in GemStone IV anymore. I wouldn't mind seeing breakage/repair be just upkeep to an item (nothing is ever destroyed permanently). But adding more tedium to GS is not the right direction.

Ahhh, that warm fuzzy feeling when you know all those fel hafters you hid under the matress will never lose value.

Feels so nice!
http://iruntheinternet.com/lulzdump/images/nicolas-cage-fells-good-con-air-head-space-1409843288n.gif?id=

[Methais]

Ahhh, that warm fuzzy feeling when you know all those fel hafters you hid under the matress will never lose value.

Feels so nice!
http://iruntheinternet.com/lulzdump/images/nicolas-cage-fells-good-con-air-head-space-1409843288n.gif?id=

And on the other end, you have a bunch of idiots who paid high prices for rolaren and veil iron 99/xxx items that I hope feel stupid.

[Methais]

But adding more tedium to GS is not the right direction.

Please bring this logic to the wizard folder.

[Wyrom]

I hope breakage numbers find a place in GS at some point. Make those 99/XXX things worth a damn. I bought into breakage as a player and bought that "reinforced" stuff up at that Pinefar merchant.

[Gelston]

I hope breakage numbers find a place in GS at some point. Make those 99/XXX things worth a damn. I bought into breakage as a player and bought that "reinforced" stuff up at that Pinefar merchant.

I used to enjoy the little "Your weapon/shield would have broken and been rendered useless!" messages when they were testing the return of breakage.

[Winter]

I think enhancives filled the breakage void.

[Androidpk]

I think enhancives filled the breakage void.

This.

[Carsyn]

I'm still a fan of upkeep/repair as Wyrom stated. Might make warriors or forgers more useful as repairers, I'm a fan of that too. As has been stated many times by now, permanent item loss via breakage is a no-go though.

But I'd also be a fan of making all current items invincible to permanent item breakage (flag all current weapons as always repairable in case of catastrophic breakage, maybe some auto-merchant fixes it for silver and a wait time), but making most/all future weapons vulnerable to it (their flag may or may not be set to non-repairable in event of catastrophic breakage). I rarely see that idea get mentioned but I think it has some merit. Maybe just me.

[macgyver]

I'm still a fan of upkeep/repair as Wyrom stated. Might make warriors or forgers more useful as repairers, I'm a fan of that too. As has been stated many times by now, permanent item loss via breakage is a no-go though.

But I'd also be a fan of making all current items invincible to permanent item breakage (flag all current weapons as always repairable in case of catastrophic breakage, maybe some auto-merchant fixes it for silver and a wait time), but making most/all future weapons vulnerable to it (their flag may or may not be set to non-repairable in event of catastrophic breakage). I rarely see that idea get mentioned but I think it has some merit. Maybe just me.

Nice ideas. I also like to add that this could act as a badly needed silver drain; I know a lot of player merchants need/want this kind of mechanism in the game's economy and the staff might find it easier as well.

[Astray]

I think a good skill for forgers would be adding temporary weighting or strengthening. That'd be awesome.

[Dendum]

I'm still a fan of upkeep/repair as Wyrom stated. Might make warriors or forgers more useful as repairers, I'm a fan of that too. As has been stated many times by now, permanent item loss via breakage is a no-go though.

But I'd also be a fan of making all current items invincible to permanent item breakage (flag all current weapons as always repairable in case of catastrophic breakage, maybe some auto-merchant fixes it for silver and a wait time), but making most/all future weapons vulnerable to it

Lol dont totally piss off the people paying cash for in game weapons but make said weapons even more valuable by making all new weapona breakable amd therefore inferior?

How about no. If breakage is too much for the current crop of uber gear owners to deal with future generations shouldnt have to take up your slack. You were warned your rampant hoarding of higher and higher tier gear would lead to economic imbalances and everyone could see it would create content disparity as the bottom 99% had to deal with content designed to challange the top 1%....but no...you just go feel the Burn were making Elanthia safe again...where did Tisket go? Im with her.

[Warriorbird]

I don't think economic imbalances are that much of an issue when you can complete the game with 4x gear.

I think it'd be great if Warriors could offer a money generating service though.

[Carsyn]

1) A weapon wouldn't be inferior just because it was breakable. I'd swing a weapon with better stats tomorrow, breakable or not.

2) The unbreakable weapons wouldn't automatically become more valuable, the reverse may be true. If you have a choice between a 10m sword thats unbreakable, and a 1m sword that's breakable, but has better stats, that's not a clear cut decision. With more weapons with better stats at cheaper prices around, breakable or not, I don't see how that'd make unbreakable weapons automatically rise in price. Seems like it'd be the opposite. There'd be less demand for overpriced weapons with inferior stats.

3) You're using words like "your" and "you". I'm just making discussion here. No need to get your panties in a bunch.

[Carsyn]

I don't think economic imbalances are that much of an issue when you can complete the game with 4x gear.

I think it'd be great if Warriors could offer a money generating service though.

They'll say we have armor resistances (which you can't master if you want to master support, even capped and triple trained), and sheath making I guess.

I'd also like to see them make Warcry Yowlp (resistance to other warcries/animal roars/griffin screech, etc) as, say, a 1 hour mass group buff. Would be something nice to add during massies. It's a supporting warcry but unable to be used in sancts. Last time I discussed this someone got upset because they thought it was too "offensive" to what a sanct is supposed to be. Go sit in TSC on Friday and Saturday night and tell me you don't see anything more offensive than a supporting warcry. I've mentioned that idea two or three times on the board but never had a GM comment.

[Warriorbird]

They'll say we have armor resistances (which you can't master if you want to master support, even capped and triple trained), and sheath making I guess.

I'd also like to see them make Warcry Yowlp (resistance to other warcries/animal roars/griffin screech, etc) as, say, a 1 hour mass group buff. Would be something nice to add during massies. It's a supporting warcry but unable to be used in sancts. Last time I discussed this someone got upset because they thought it was too "offensive" to what a sanct is supposed to be. Go sit in TSC on Friday and Saturday night and tell me you don't see anything more offensive than a supporting warcry. I've mentioned that idea two or three times on the board but never had a GM comment.

That's not real money making. Exclusive repair or crafting options (to enable other people to do it) would be.

[BLZrizz]

I don't think economic imbalances are that much of an issue when you can complete the game with 4x gear.

Disagree with this. Said no one ever: man, i totally just had the most balanced hunt!

Players with cool, interesting, fun to use items stick around longer. Not research, just anecdotal. Yet the game continues to cater around the same 5-6 players, and this stuff ends up in their hands and lockers more often than not. I'd wager the imbalance, which has gotten worse as the cool stuff is concentrated more and more in few players, is one of the factors contributing to the long term population decline.

[Warriorbird]

Disagree with this. Said no one ever: man, i totally just had the most balanced hunt!

Players with cool, interesting, fun to use items stick around longer. Not research, just anecdotal. Yet the game continues to cater around the same 5-6 players, and this stuff ends up in their hands and lockers more often than not. I'd wager the imbalance, which has gotten worse as the cool stuff is concentrated more and more in few players, is one of the factors contributing to the long term population decline.

I think the decline's mostly on a variety of graphical games, people moving on, Simu's lack of willingness to go into social media and cell phone based gaming at the right point, lack of integration with Lich/modding, and the cost/benefit ratio.

Now I think we lose more players by wiping out the spells they've used since the 90s to protect Simucoin sales and so on. I'm glad Wyrom's not interested in catastrophic breakage.

I think a true free to play with cosmetic purchases would end up with better results than the current force you to subscribe system but I understand why it won't happen.

[Taernath]

That's not real money making. Exclusive repair or crafting options (to enable other people to do it) would be.

At most I'd want to see repairing done at an automated merchant like the locksmith, otherwise people would have to run around looking for warriors who were a) able and b) willing to repair something. Those in smaller towns are screwed.

[Warriorbird]

At most I'd want to see repairing done at an automated merchant like the locksmith, otherwise people would have to run around looking for warriors who were a) able and b) willing to repair something. Those in smaller towns are screwed.

I think Premium would probably take care of a lot of that as an issue. There's also portals. If your concern's about the Rest I think the boot should've been reopened for years.

[Taernath]

I think Premium would probably take care of a lot of that as an issue. There's also portals. If your concern's about the Rest I think the boot should've been reopened for years.

It's about any town besides the Landing. Heck, even the Landing sometimes only has a couple people in TSC. And I'd rather not see a pay service used to justify it.

[Dendum]

1) A weapon wouldn't be inferior just because it was breakable. I'd swing a weapon with better stats tomorrow, breakable or not.

2) The unbreakable weapons wouldn't automatically become more valuable, the reverse may be true. If you have a choice between a 10m sword thats unbreakable, and a 1m sword that's breakable, but has better stats, that's not a clear cut decision. With more weapons with better stats at cheaper prices around, breakable or not, I don't see how that'd make unbreakable weapons automatically rise in price. Seems like it'd be the opposite. There'd be less demand for overpriced weapons with inferior stats.

3) You're using words like "your" and "you". I'm just making discussion here. No need to get your panties in a bunch.

As to
1&2) are you suggesting they make weapons break then make 11x HCP the new 4x? Because we already have 9x HCP spiffyscript plate armor around...you are really going to have to make it that much better to have someone shell out for it if it breaka

As to 3)
That is a natural response to someone using words like "I" and "I'd". I will keep my panties however god wanted me to wear them!

I am not opposed to breakage or loot dropping on death but I do think some players would quit over it so it probably is not going to happen.

[macgyver]

Honestly, if I were thinking about the health of the game and not my personal Gemstone millions greed. I would say super gear hurts more then it helps mainly because the game is balanced for plain jane 4x gear. I see many of you here with the running mantra "Gemstone is EZ man!" then compare that to this new player and his thread titled "What am I doing wrong?!" (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?104595-What-am-I-doing-wrong-!&p=1885655#post1885655).

We (and yeah I include myself although I've been absent for a couple of decades, hm some people come out on parole for murder during that time,not saying I did...) are not the standard GS players (and I'm not trying to stroke egos here rather the opposite should be implied from the above statement) but especially for new players without the super gear to bandaid over the lack of knowledge it can be frustrating. Sometimes I wonder if the new (wasn't much around in my time) CMAN insta-death maneuvers were added to critters because of people casually wandering around with 10x super gear. You can't wear spells you don't know in the Rift which was probably subconsciously intended to try and balance the game to be harder for those with super gear but just hurts those (most likely new players) who have standard issue gear.

The matter becomes worse because people just starting out are usually casuals 7~10 hours of play a week and although leveling might be consistent and immutable between new and the very old player, access to gear through silvers generated is near impossible with the amount of silvers sloshing around over the decades. A new new player would garner over the capping of a character what? 10k an hour? That's only 20 million silvers generated gross not including cyclicals like tipping empaths/clerics, buying herbs or scrolls, travel fees, leveling gear etc. It turns out to be almost nothing especially for a capped character which doesn't make the new player truly invested into the game.

[Gelston]

Honestly, if I were thinking about the health of the game and not my personal Gemstone millions greed. I would say super gear hurts more then it helps mainly because the game is balanced for plain jane 4x gear. I see many of you here with the running mantra "Gemstone is EZ man!" then compare that to this new player and his thread titled "What am I doing wrong?!" (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?104595-What-am-I-doing-wrong-!&p=1885655#post1885655).

We (and yeah I include myself although I've been absent for a couple of decades, hm some people come out on parole for murder during that time,not saying I did...) are not the standard GS players (and I'm not trying to stroke egos here rather the opposite should be implied from the above statement) but especially for new players without the super gear to bandaid over the lack of knowledge it can be frustrating. Sometimes I wonder if the new (wasn't much around in my time) CMAN insta-death maneuvers were added to critters because of people casually wandering around with 10x super gear. You can't wear spells you don't know in the Rift which was probably subconsciously intended to try and balance the game to be harder for those with super gear but just hurts those (most likely new players) who have standard issue gear.

The matter becomes worse because people just starting out are usually casuals 7~10 hours of play a week and although leveling might be consistent and immutable between new and the very old player, access to gear through silvers generated is near impossible with the amount of silvers sloshing around over the decades. A new new player would garner over the capping of a character what? 10k an hour? That's only 20 million silvers generated gross not including cyclicals like tipping empaths/clerics, buying herbs or scrolls, travel fees, leveling gear etc. It turns out to be almost nothing especially for a capped character which doesn't make the new player truly invested into the game.

If you'd read that thread, that other person isn't yet in 4x armor. It was a gear problem, but one that is cheaply fixed. You don't need more than 4x gear.

[Astray]

blah blah blah

To echo the many, many people who have been posting this for decades. You don't need 10x gear. You make do with what you got.

I'd like to also point out that it's been said numerous, NUMEROUS, times in several topics you've visited that 4x is cheap as fuck. You can literally buy one of these for 20k. Hell, I've given away a 5x just because I no longer needed it.

[Wrathbringer]

You don't need more than 4x gear.

Some asshole always chimes in with this. I'm unsurprised that it's you this time.

[Gelston]

Some asshole always chimes in with this. I'm unsurprised that it's you this time.

Do you need to troll in every thread?

[Wrathbringer]

Do you need to troll in every thread?

That wasn't troll. That was truth.

[Taernath]

If you'd read that thread, that other person isn't yet in 4x armor. It was a gear problem, but one that is cheaply fixed. You don't need more than 4x gear.

Besides that, you supposedly don't need a society either.

[macgyver]

We should all try leveling a fresh character from 0-25 or so, fresh, no hand me down gear, no society. Give us some perspective on what new F2P players are going through.

[Astray]

Besides that, you supposedly don't need a society either.

You don't. It helps a lot depending on what you do but it's not a life and death requirement.

[Gelston]

I generally join sunfist with new warriors, purely for the camps. Seeing as I have no mana, I don't really use the signs... So I basically have no society and do fine.

[Taernath]

We should all try leveling a fresh character from 0-25 or so, fresh, no hand me down gear, no society. Give us some perspective on what new F2P players are going through.

I think most of us have F2P characters, or have at least tried it out. With the gear and silver restrictions it's not like we can do much for them anyway. Dreavenings provide spells.

[Methais]

That wasn't troll. That was truth.

Are you sure you're not just bad at GS?

[Astray]

I am on the 'Fuck F2P' bandwagon. It's a goddamn mess.

[Wrathbringer]

Are you sure you're not just bad at GS?

I've made no statement concerning the difficulty of gs. My warrior is 86 and uses 4x gear.

[kutter]

Given the decreasing prices of gear, getting 6X and 7X stuff is pretty easy and not all the expensive. So if breakage were re-implemented player forged weapons would stop their death spiral and wizards would become once again a very desirable class, instead of just a pocket enchanter/spellbot.

As someone said, it would be especially neat if forging masters were able to repair weapons, oh and while we are there, why can't they make armor or smelt less than perfect items. I just wanted to throw that in since Wyrom is for sure reading this thread.

[Astray]

Forging armor and accessories would be great. I'd like to see more forge options open up to warriors, specifically, though.

[Vorpodu]

To echo the many, many people who have been posting this for decades. You don't need 10x gear. You make do with what you got.

I'd like to also point out that it's been said numerous, NUMEROUS, times in several topics you've visited that 4x is cheap as fuck. You can literally buy one of these for 20k. Hell, I've given away a 5x just because I no longer needed it.

The problem isn't that the game is accomplishable with 4x gear. Yea I made up a word, so what. The problem is who WANTS to never improve unless they throw ridiculous amounts of real life dollars at a game they are already paying for? That's no fun and makes the player feel forced to shell out because they will never get high end gear unless that get lucky as hell with some critter drop or in a raffle. Not to mention invasions, where even capped characters are going to get owned easily and not be able to contribute on a meaningful level unless they're decked out. The price of and concentration of high end gear on the select few is a problem, no matter how bad you want to admit it.

[Astray]

The problem isn't that the game is accomplishable with 4x gear. Yea I made up a word, so what. The problem is who WANTS to never improve unless they throw ridiculous amounts of real life dollars at a game they are already paying for? That's no fun and makes the player feel forced to shell out because they will never get high end gear unless that get lucky as hell with some critter drop or in a raffle. Not to mention invasions, where even capped characters are going to get owned easily and not be able to contribute on a meaningful level unless they're decked out. The price of and concentration of high end gear on the select few is a problem, no matter how bad you want to admit it.

Fair enough.

[Gelston]

I've made no statement concerning the difficulty of gs. My warrior is 86 and uses 4x gear.

So, just trolling then.

[Wrathbringer]

So, just trolling then.

Yeah.

[crb]

I think the simple solution is to have items degrade in bonus based on the prior designed breakage formulas.

So your 10x sword goes to +49, then +48, then +47, then +46, and so on and so on.

But have repair be an easy relatively inexpensive process to always bring it back up to +50.

So then, at least, your breakage numbers are not meaningless, and it adds a real functional difference for the myriad of metals we have (something that is sorely needed).

I also still like my idea about maximum possible enchant being base enchant *2 or 4x, whatever is higher, grandfathering in existing highly enchanted weapons of course.

Right now golvern is identical to 5x steel, like chewbacca living on endor that does not make sense.

I've been plugging this idea ever since I cornered the golvern market for a brief time back in I think 2006, but I'm not in the golvern business anymore, and I still think it is a good idea.

AND also, if you did this, you could release 8x-10x enchanting potions as unlimited availability.