Bush's new war budget

[GSLeloo]

Ok just wondering what people think about it. Is the nearly $50 billion dollars a year worth it even though it will cut back on domestic programs? Is the loss of life worth it? What do you think?

[StrayRogue]

As Bill Hicks once said, "take all the money spent of weapons of murder each year, and use it to feed, clothe and house every single person on the face of the planet, which it would do many times over".

Bush IS a warmonger. I will not shed a tear when that fuck gets his dues.

*Paraphrased. He was always more eloquent than I.

[Staerin]

If that means they'll pay me a lot more... sure it's worth it

[StrayRogue]

Gotta love ignorance.

[GSLeloo]

I agree. I believe Bush is a warhawk that wanted this war. We used to say in my history class that he wanted to go after the guy who nearly killed his daddy. What I find funny is that we have a pretty huge defecit right now and he's trying to make it larger by taking more money to fight a war that can't be won.

[HarmNone]

Normally, I do not comment on political matters. However, I shall make an exception for this.

It sucks. :)

HarmNone

[GSLeloo]

It does suck... he could take one million of all those billions of dollars and feed so many people... he could probably take the whole sum and feed all of America for a year.
Or he could help out the eduction or the falling economy or the job market.

[Staerin]

Strayrogue... be quiet about ignorance, I was just JOKING... I don't want to see any new wars or national debts appearing any more than the rest of you.

[Back]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
I agree. I believe Bush is a warhawk that wanted this war. We used to say in my history class that he wanted to go after the guy who nearly killed his daddy. What I find funny is that we have a pretty huge defecit right now and he's trying to make it larger by taking more money to fight a war that can't be won.

Funny thing is too the Republicans will tell you we have that deficit because of the previous democratic president. Then, when a democrat takes office again, all of this will be blamed on him/her not being able to manage the budget. And on and on, ad infinitum. The bipartisanship of this country needs to change. What to? I don't know.

As for this budget, what he proposes isn't anywhere near what we spent on WWII. Its not even as much as Vietnam with considerably fewer lives lost.

Don't feel too badly though, most of that money is going to the armed forces and american contractors like Halliburton.

[GSLeloo]

Yeah they do keep blaming it on everyone else. But does it make it any better? They need to stop spending the money a war no one in the world wanted and help our own country.

[Souzy]

Originally posted by HarmNone
Normally, I do not comment on political matters. However, I shall make an exception for this.

It sucks. :)

HarmNone

I too agree with HarmNone. I hate politics, it's like a bunch of guys in one room arguing about who's dick is bigger :o Bush should be more concerned about what our country needs, then going out for revenge. You notice that since both Bush's became president we've gone to war with the Middle East? Clinton did a way better job. Even though he was getting his ya ya's from what's her face, he still did his job right. :thumbsup:

[GSLeloo]

When it comes to Clinton I think sometimes you have to get that it's his private life. Let the man be a human as long as he did his job. And he really did, he was a great president.
Bush on the other hand I think is an idiot. He wants a war because he probably wants his father to be proud of him. It's some stupid daddy complex. And what I really hate about it is that Bush brings us into the war and who fights it? Who's dying on the battle fields? Not Bush, he's safe at home in a bomb proof shelter. It's our families, children, siblings, fathers, that are risking their lives.

[Camri]

Ok, I understand nobody wants the deficit to get any higher. And of course it would be great to feed the hungry, and make life wonderful for every single person in our own country.

But take a minute to ask yourselves something.... WHAT IF the propaganda is true? WHAT IF there are people in Iraq who are being tortured and killed? WHAT IF these people actually could use our help, and we choose to walk away and let them deal with their own problems? What would that make us?.... Being the richest country in the world, yet we walk away and let others suffer because we don't want our deficit to go higher. We're better than that.

When the Hitler/Nazi war began, many had already suffered, been tortured and killed. Why? Because the rest of the world hesitated to step in, the Unites States included. How many people might have been saved had someone acted faster?

I'm not a Bush loyalist. I hope the guy gets voted out in the next election.

I agree that he might have had his own agenda for starting this war. But we already had issues with the Iraqi administration. They had enough violations on their record, that they should have been dealt with a long time ago. They're being dealt with now.

Maybe it isn't our job to police the world, But what kind of people would we be if we allowed someone else to suffer, when we can do something about it?

If you're going to whine about our presence in Iraq, find a better reason than the money.

[GSLeloo]

Originally posted by Camri
Ok, I understand nobody wants the deficit to get any higher. And of course it would be great to feed the hungry, and make life wonderful for every single person in our own country.

But take a minute to ask yourselves something.... WHAT IF the propaganda is true? WHAT IF there are people in Iraq who are being tortured and killed? WHAT IF these people actually could use our help, and we choose to walk away and let them deal with their own problems? What would that make us?.... Being the richest country in the world, yet we walk away and let others suffer because we don't want our deficit to go higher. We're better than that.

Trust me, anyone that murders, rapes, tortures another person in that country deserves to die the most painful death. I am fully for that because I think that is disgusting. But I think the problem is is that most of those people do not care. We can walk in there and try to help them as much as we want but if they don't want our help it's gonna turn into a Vietnam. And I think a lot of the violence since the war ended proved a lot of them don't want us there.


When the Hitler/Nazi war began, many had already suffered, been tortured and killed. Why? Because the rest of the world hesitated to step in, the Unites States included. How many people might have been saved had someone acted faster?


And I do agree with you here too, we should've stepped in sooner. Everyone should have done something sooner but very often you act too quickly and you mess up and you wait too long and it's too late.



I'm not a Bush loyalist. I hope the guy gets voted out in the next election.

I agree that he might have had his own agenda for starting this war. But we already had issues with the Iraqi administration. They had enough violations on their record, that they should have been dealt with a long time ago. They're being dealt with now.

Maybe it isn't our job to police the world, But what kind of people would we be if we allowed someone else to suffer, when we can do something about it?


The thing is, they don't want us there. If some other country walked into our towns, killed our leaders, and started telling us that our government was wrong, our way of life was wrong and this is how we should live, not that way how would you react? We would hate them and fight them with every last breath we had, even if we didn't hate them to begin with. They would create that hate the moment they forced us to their way of life.


If you're going to whine about our presence in Iraq, find a better reason than the money.

[Back]

Maybe it isn't our job to police the world, But what kind of people would we be if we allowed someone else to suffer, when we can do something about it?

If you're going to whine about our presence in Iraq, find a better reason than the money.

What about our own people? I'm not saying there wasn't a problem in Iraq, and call be selfish but I believe in taking care of American first. All that money could do some amazing things here in this country.

I wonder how many innocent Iraqi's we killed in our Operation Iraqi Freedom. There will never be a way to know if that number would have been higher or lower than the number Saddam would have killed if we hadn't.

[Camri]

<<I wonder how many innocent Iraqi's we killed in our Operation Iraqi Freedom. There will never be a way to know if that number would have been higher or lower than the number Saddam would have killed if we hadn't. >>

You're right, there's no way to know. But it's the principal. It's wrong to stand by and allow something like that to happen.

Look back through American history. Freedom always has a price. It costs lives.

[Back]

Look back through American history. Freedom always has a price. It costs lives.

Thus my frustration with humanity in general.

[Camri]

Originally posted by Backlash

Look back through American history. Freedom always has a price. It costs lives.

Thus my frustration with humanity in general.

It's too bad we don't live in a perfect world, isn't it?

[GSLeloo]

Everything has a cost, yes that's true. But I just think it's WRONG for that cost to ever really have to be life. And I know how naive that makes me.
Sometimes I wish wars could be fought like this... the stupid jerk ruling this country hates the stupid jerk ruling that country so stick them and their ego's in a boxing ring and let them fight it out. There, now the two people with the problem dealt with it.

And I don't mean a war such as WWII where the holocaust was about saving lives. I mean a war where it's more about a countries ego.

[Back]

It's too bad we don't live in a perfect world, isn't it?

Yes it is, because I feel we have the capability to do so.

And to get back to your point about this budget, how is spending that much money on a country half a world away more justified than spending it in our own to solve the problems in our own backyard?

[Camri]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
Everything has a cost, yes that's true. But I just think it's WRONG for that cost to ever really have to be life. And I know how naive that makes me.
Sometimes I wish wars could be fought like this... the stupid jerk ruling this country hates the stupid jerk ruling that country so stick them and their ego's in a boxing ring and let them fight it out. There, now the two people with the problem dealt with it.

And I don't mean a war such as WWII where the holocaust was about saving lives. I mean a war where it's more about a countries ego.

But IF the propaganda is true, this isn't just about egos. People were being killed and tortured. Something had to be done about that, or it's another holocaust.

And I say if, because i know as well as everybody else that propaganda always has a 50/50 chance of not being true. So don't start with that.

[GSLeloo]

Originally posted by Camri


But IF the propaganda is true, this isn't just about egos. People were being killed and tortured. Something had to be done about that, or it's another holocaust.

And I say if, because i know as well as everybody else that propaganda always has a 50/50 chance of not being true. So don't start with that.

If the people are being treated that badly then why aren't they rallying to help us? Why haven't they had their own revolution to help themselves? And why are they fighting us and seem to hate us so much? It's just hard when you go to war because yes, you get the bad guys and manage to stop their ways but what about all the innocents along the ways?

[Camri]

Originally posted by Backlash

It's too bad we don't live in a perfect world, isn't it?

Yes it is, because I feel we have the capability to do so.

And to get back to your point about this budget, how is spending that much money on a country half a world away more justified than spending it in our own to solve the problems in our own backyard?

I know there hungry, homeless, suffering people right here in our own country. But with all the aide programs, soup kitchens, and missions available here, are our problems really comparable to those of a people who are being tortured and killed by their own government?

There is relief here if it's sought out. Some have none.

[Scott]

<<<But IF the propaganda is true, this isn't just about egos. People were being killed and tortured. Something had to be done about that, or it's another holocaust>>>

Well since they are using human shields in war, I'm confident that people were tortured. Soldiers have documented Iraqui troops throwing children in front of tanks and vehicles in an effort to get them to stop to attack them. Soldiers, know that if they stop they will die are forced to run over children. That is just sick....

[Camri]

Originally posted by GSLeloo

Originally posted by Camri


But IF the propaganda is true, this isn't just about egos. People were being killed and tortured. Something had to be done about that, or it's another holocaust.

And I say if, because i know as well as everybody else that propaganda always has a 50/50 chance of not being true. So don't start with that.

If the people are being treated that badly then why aren't they rallying to help us? Why haven't they had their own revolution to help themselves? And why are they fighting us and seem to hate us so much? It's just hard when you go to war because yes, you get the bad guys and manage to stop their ways but what about all the innocents along the ways?

Not all of them are fighting us. do you watch the interviews on the news? Some of them actually call our troops heros.

There are those who have their own agendas for not wanting the former government to lose control. There were those like them in Germany too.

As far as the innocents go, refer to my answer to Backlash about the loss of lives.

[GSLeloo]

It is just my personal belief that loss of life is never a necessity. As for the people throwing children in front of tanks? They should just be shot immediatly on sight. If there was a god, he should just strike these people down one by one.
Karma is a good belief but I'd rather have instant karma. And trust me, anyone who harms a child or an animal should die a very slow painful death (spikes up certain areas sound nice) I just don't think we can accomplish this while at the same time going after people that might've been innocent. I don't think Bush went into war for those reasons. If he had, I'd be all behind this war but I think he went for his own personal (father) reasons.

[Camri]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
It is just my personal belief that loss of life is never a necessity. As for the people throwing children in front of tanks? They should just be shot immediatly on sight. If there was a god, he should just strike these people down one by one.
Karma is a good belief but I'd rather have instant karma. And trust me, anyone who harms a child or an animal should die a very slow painful death (spikes up certain areas sound nice) I just don't think we can accomplish this while at the same time going after people that might've been innocent. I don't think Bush went into war for those reasons. If he had, I'd be all behind this war but I think he went for his own personal (father) reasons.

And that all takes us back to the perfect world thing. I'm sure we all wish we lived in a perfect world, where war never happens and people never die. But we don't.

In a perfect world people would never be tortured, children would never harmed. But there is no such thing as a perfect world. There never has been since the beginning of time, and chances of it happening now are slim. We can always keep hoping though.

I already said Bush probably had his own agenda for going in like he did. But aside from that something needed to be done anyway. Look at all the UN violations. Then there's still that small genicide matter that was never really cleared up...

Regardless of his reasons, our troops need to be there. It's below us as a free nation to walk away from the suffering of others.

[GSLeloo]

But what about the suffering in our own nation? We're losing lots and lots of jobs... Oh and by the way, can anyone tell me why Communism was supposed to be a horrible thing? I mean, it would never work but as an ideal it's pretty good, right? Equality...

[Scott]

<<<<Oh and by the way, can anyone tell me why Communism was supposed to be a horrible thing?>>>

If you can't answer that yourself, I can't help you.

[GSLeloo]

I think Communism itself was a good idea but it could never work. It was the dictatorship that was bad.

[Camri]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
But what about the suffering in our own nation? We're losing lots and lots of jobs... Oh and by the way, can anyone tell me why Communism was supposed to be a horrible thing? I mean, it would never work but as an ideal it's pretty good, right? Equality...

I already basically answered this question for Backlash. The problems we have here are minimal to those of others. We're the richest country in the world. Whining about our economy, or anything else that seems petty compared to the suffering others might be doing seems selfish.

As far as the communism thing, I'm not even going to go into that one with you. It would require me to chew you up and spit you out, and probably suggest you move someplace else. I like you, I don't want you to move away.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Staerin
Strayrogue... be quiet about ignorance, I was just JOKING... I don't want to see any new wars or national debts appearing any more than the rest of you.

Hey Ignorance IS bliss. I wish I didn't know half the evil shit I do about how fucked up this world is. I wish I was ignorant. I wish I thought everything was good etc. Ah well.

[StrayRogue]

Communism isn't a bad thing (it has never been successfully or properly imployed on a large scale anywhere however, atleast not in the pure Marxist form at any rate). It would solve poverty, unemployment, but cause many other problems etc. Its too early to really go into ;)

[Tendarian]

Rebublicans are selfish and evil,we should take the money spent on freeing iraq and spend it on ourselves!!:tumble:

[Edited on 9-9-2003 by Tendarian]

[Back]

Originally posted by Gemstone101
<<<But IF the propaganda is true, this isn't just about egos. People were being killed and tortured. Something had to be done about that, or it's another holocaust>>>

Well since they are using human shields in war, I'm confident that people were tortured. Soldiers have documented Iraqui troops throwing children in front of tanks and vehicles in an effort to get them to stop to attack them. Soldiers, know that if they stop they will die are forced to run over children. That is just sick....

There is no doubt in my mind that some people definitely were tortured. Mainly, political dissidents. But I am curious where you read or saw the story about throwing children in front of tanks.

[Tsa`ah]

50 Billion (in addition to the current costs) a year could do amazing things for the populace, very true. It is however 50 billion we do not have.

I can't find any justification for us being in Iraq.

The atrocities of Sadam and company are echoed by many more leaders of other nations. Why are we not in those countries?

As for the travesties of WWII, the world did not go to war over the holocaust. The world went to war over land rights, border infringements and control over resources. The hundreds of thousands killed prior to going over seas was a very little known fact.

[GSLeloo]

Now someone can help me out with this... was I wrong in the amount a year? Because I thought today as we were watching Bush's taped speech in my CWA class that it wasn't 50 billion he said, but around 80 billion a year. Anyone sure of the exact numbers?

[Staerin]

The number I've seen today was 87 billion

[GSLeloo]

Could give me 100k of that 87 billion and I could go through nearly ten years of college.

[Back]

Originally posted by Staerin
The number I've seen today was 87 billion

I think thats right. And CNN spins it up nice. Like my first post in this thread, they say its less than was spent on Vietnam, and waaaay less than was spent on WWII.

Over half the money he is asking for will go to our own armed forces and contracting companies like Halliburton. I have no problem with that really, just sick of the spin that this is a humanitarian war.

I agree, that if we can help, we should help, but I don't see killing more Iraqis as helping them. UN sanctions really screwed them over for a long time, one reason for hunger, the spread of disease, and the Iraqi government stiffening the punishments of their laws that Amnesty International cries about ie. get caught hoarding and selling donating food, lose a limb.

On top of that, Amnesty International has documented what it deems human rights atrocities in a number of countries over the years and even they say war has to be a last resort because even they know it will kill more innocents.

Half the people in this country still think this war is humanitarian. Others think was over 9/11. That closed last week. I'm sorry, but both of those reasons are pure 100% USDA grade bullshit fed to you by CNN, the BBC, and the current administration.

And now, after we said, "Fuck the UN" we are going right back to them to help us clean up the mess we made while we can't even clean up our own mess here at home.

[Ben]

National Socialism is superior to Communism in every way.

[GSLeloo]

And what is National Socialism? (My history teachers idea of teaching was giving you section reviews and huge essays about disillusionment caused by WWI)

[Back]

Originally posted by Ben
National Socialism is superior to Communism in every way.

Thus spoke Benathustra.. er...

[Camri]

As for the travesties of WWII, the world did not go to war over the holocaust. The world went to war over land rights, border infringements and control over resources. The hundreds of thousands killed prior to going over seas was a very little known fact. [/quote]


Ummm... I think you just made my point again for me, with this last paragraph.

[Tsa`ah]

I disproved it with the statement made prior to it. The aforementioned paragraph was pointing out the flawed perception as to why we entered WWII.

[Back]

Something major to add to this topic. Bush refuses to increase the budget on American education. Topo Gigo always had a hand up his ass too.

[Tendarian]

Arguing whether we should be in iraq now seems pointless to me. We went. To blow them up and leave them to dig out and fix stuff doesnt seem right. I think the same liberals would be just as much up in arms over that as they are with rebuilding. It isnt going to be pretty getting them into a self suffient country but when it is done i think history will look at what was done as a good thing.

One other thing, CNN and the BBC certainly wouldnt associate themselves as allies with Dubya,perhaps you mean fox news or something? I believe the whole purpose of fox news was that CNN and the BBC were to liberal.

[Back]

Originally posted by GSLeloo
And what is National Socialism? (My history teachers idea of teaching was giving you section reviews and huge essays about disillusionment caused by WWI)

Pick up "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" by Nietzche (SP?). Good reading actually.

[Back]

I believe the whole purpose of fox news was that CNN and the BBC were to liberal.

The muck is thick. Very thick.