Channeling Boneshatter

[Peppwyn]

Are most people channeling at a higher than guarded stance with Boneshatter? I find it takes quite a few casts to kill something. Wondering how to make it more potent.

[Jeril]

With my empath I tended to channel in offensive with both hands empty. Somethings are also just a bit harder to kill with boneshatter then others, so it also depends on what you are hunting.

[Peppwyn]

Both hands open in offensive? I feel like I would die.

[Gnomad]

Double open hand in offensive adds a phantom +40 to all your hits, so if you're hunting something that stuns (and there are very few things with bones that don't stun) you're probably getting a stun.

If I'm paranoid, I'll keep the runestaff out and stance dance/channel in offensive with one open hand (phantom +20) 'til I get a stun that's obviously not a 1 rounder, then stow it and go full blast.

By comparison, channeling from guarded with one free hand is like a phantom +4 or +5.

[Nahkaev]

when I used boneshatter I danced between forward/guarded while holding a runestaff.

Mostly because putting it away and getting it out all the time is a pain in the ass

[Versin]

I always open channel/offensive, and time the stuns (;crit_type_tracker is helpful). As an empath it is easy enough to shrug off the occasional return strike. Can always web etc. beforehand if worried about it.

[Peppwyn]

Thanks for the advice. I'll try out double open handed. Would it be worthwhile to train in brawling instead then? Get some higher enchant gloves?

[Jeril]

Thanks for the advice. I'll try out double open handed. Would it be worthwhile to train in brawling instead then? Get some higher enchant gloves?

I did just 1 rank brawling 1 rank twc and some 4x gloves. Weapon enchant doesn't add a lot to parry DS so unless you are really hurting or just have some laying around I wouldn't do more then 4x. I want to say doing those three things was like 11 offensive DS, not a huge amount but for the points not a bad return on investment.

[Peppwyn]

1 rank or 1x? Offensive with open hands seems too dangerous to me. My defense is pretty meh and I'm not really getting a whole lot more potency that I can see. Still takes 3-4 casts for a storm giant to die.

[Versin]

1 rank of TWC is good for +5 DS. Whats your spell training - if you are hunting stormies I guess you are still working through the spiritual lists, so if you haven't hit 120 and 219 yet those will help.

[Jeril]

1 rank or 1x? Offensive with open hands seems too dangerous to me. My defense is pretty meh and I'm not really getting a whole lot more potency that I can see. Still takes 3-4 casts for a storm giant to die.

Just 1 single rank like I typed :P What does your training look like?

[Peppwyn]

Here is where I am at right now:

Armor Use..........................| 40 8
Physical Fitness...................| 214 114
Arcane Symbols.....................| 134 37
Magic Item Use.....................| 134 37
Harness Power......................| 174 74
Spirit Mana Control................| 105 25
Mental Lore - Manipulation.........| 3 0
Survival...........................| 134 37
Perception.........................| 134 37
Climbing...........................| 105 25
Swimming...........................| 50 10
First Aid..........................| 134 37

Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 13

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 19

Spell Lists
Empath.............................| 57

[Versin]

Yeah, 120 and 219 will be a big help. I would suggest dropping PF to 2x to free up TPs, and even 1x HP (some people like to 2x HP, depending on society). Since you have the AS/MIU get a couple scrolls/imbeds if you are still hurting for DS.

[Jeril]

I also look at skills like MIU/AS. If you aren't actually using them, 'runestaff' defense isn't enough of a reason to be spending the tps on them.

I am not sure why your spells are split the way they are. I'd suggest 22 MnS, this gets you 120 and at 22 ranks another CS point for empath spells as well as a couple more DS. Then whatever points you can dump into MjS.

[Peppwyn]

I was going for 120 (which I now have) and then heading for 219. CS had never really been a problem, it was just that I had to cast 4-5 times to kill something with boneshatter. I am hoping that I can have 2x SA by mid 40s and I can start trying fire spirit? THW sounds like an interesting and fun build, but I only have an imflass claidhmore and would want something more super duper to switch.

[Peppwyn]

I really don't use MIU/AS, but thought it was worth it for how cheap they are and the DS bonus... but now you're ruining my world telling me that's not the case?

[Peppwyn]

I was also thinking of a brawling/shield build, but I have 6x/6x nerve runestaff and nothing is disarming so I didn't feel like that was a good idea until post cap?

[Jeril]

I was going for 120 (which I now have) and then heading for 219. CS had never really been a problem, it was just that I had to cast 4-5 times to kill something with boneshatter. I am hoping that I can have 2x SA by mid 40s and I can start trying fire spirit? THW sounds like an interesting and fun build, but I only have an imflass claidhmore and would want something more super duper to switch.

I switched to a spell aim build with my empath at 53 or around there for hunting the glacier in Illistim. I was rather disappointed with the results and switched back as soon as I could.

There is probably only a small window where runestaff ranks give you better DS then training in actual spell ranks. At higher levels especially where the point cost to be 1x in something is costing you a couple or more spell ranks which can be put towards MnS if DS is really an issue.

I consider brawl/shield more of a postcap thing especially with the way runestaves work these days but if you feel your DS is low you may want to try it. You can also math things out if you aren't feeling too lazy.

[Merala]

With my empath I tended to channel in offensive with both hands empty. Somethings are also just a bit harder to kill with boneshatter then others, so it also depends on what you are hunting.

This was also my choice. I also have to say that I'm a lore whore, so that helps too. Something like a storm giant, or any giant is going to take a bit of effort to kill without a crit shot. They just have a ton of health. You should be getting a stun on the first cast pretty much every time though. With giants they tend to shake it off pretty fast on the other hand. I've also invested a lot into bolt spells, but not all empaths go that route.

[Peppwyn]

Thanks for all the advice. I'm sad that SA didnt turn out very well. I had high hopes for fire spirit in a troll warcamp or empathic assault once i can get 20 ranks of telepathy. I'll really take another look at casting boneshatter with both hands open. Standing in offensive with 2 open hands sounds like instant death, but looks like others are having success as well.

[Nahkaev]

This was also my choice. I also have to say that I'm a lore whore, so that helps too. Something like a storm giant, or any giant is going to take a bit of effort to kill without a crit shot. They just have a ton of health. You should be getting a stun on the first cast pretty much every time though. With giants they tend to shake it off pretty fast on the other hand. I've also invested a lot into bolt spells, but not all empaths go that route.

not to be obtuse here.. but being a 'lore whore' (your words) by my estimation, hinders more than it helps here. The only lore that helps bone shatter is manipulation, and it does not help it in a way that is particularly useful (it does not add DF, and does not increase crits or net damage or the stun rate). While, yes, instantly killing something is nice- the problem with open-handed casting is reliability and all insta-kills do is add instances of positive randomness, not reliability. ((by way of example- at storm giant levels- lvl 39- 1x'ing manipulation is 246MTPs, which is 4 spell ranks - meaning you spend 3CS to gain a an insta-kill rate of 25%*0.025 + 25%*0.03+50%*0.05 = <4%)).

For low-to-mid levels on a warding pure I would opt for CS over lores until the diminishing returns for CS gain are so severe (or the CS gain is no longer relevant because of what you hunt) that it isn't worth it any longer.

Personally- I like to *KNOW* I'm going to disable something when I cast at it. Again by example-- If I have a 5% warding margin for failure on a creature, rather than have a having a 95% chance of stunning -- if I can move that sub-100 endroll up 3 notches by gaining 3 CS, I've eliminted 3 out of 5 rolls (60%!) where I don't land a stun. that 60% gain (to me), is much more important than sometimes (<4% of the time) killing something outright - and a min/maxed CS is really the only way to do this if I don't want to waste casts while in non-aggressive stances.

It used to be the case that training heavily in mental mana control had the ability to drastically increase the critical rate of this spell- but they took that away several years ago.

[Merala]

Thanks for all the advice. I'm sad that SA didnt turn out very well. I had high hopes for fire spirit in a troll warcamp or empathic assault once i can get 20 ranks of telepathy. I'll really take another look at casting boneshatter with both hands open. Standing in offensive with 2 open hands sounds like instant death, but looks like others are having success as well.

I regularly use Empathic Assault and Fire Spirit. I think I use aimed spells more so than channeled ones, but I also have the lore for extra flares, extra damage cycles, etc. I also tend to hunt in a group in swarmy places so being able to stun 3 enemies in one cast is extremely helpful.

[Peppwyn]

So given my build as I previously posted, sounds like the consensus is really to forgo some of the runestaff DS skills, channel with open hands in offensive and add to MnS/MjS until such time as I'm not really seeing any additional benefit. I am not familiar with how many spell ranks that is, so if someone could help me understand that it would be greatly appreciated.

[Merala]

So given my build as I previously posted, sounds like the consensus is really to forgo some of the runestaff DS skills, channel with open hands in offensive and add to MnS/MjS until such time as I'm not really seeing any additional benefit. I am not familiar with how many spell ranks that is, so if someone could help me understand that it would be greatly appreciated.

At this time, unless you want to start adding in lores that's probably your best bet. I can't remember how many spell ranks that is though. IIRC I stopped MnS at 130 and MjS at 225 until I got my empath ranks where I wanted, then resumed for additional benefits to spells.

[Merala]

not to be obtuse here.. but being a 'lore whore' (your words) by my estimation, hinders more than it helps here. The only lore that helps bone shatter is manipulation, and it does not help it in a way that is particularly useful (it does not add DF, and does not increase crits or net damage or the stun rate).

I agree with you on that point. I don't only have manipulation, however. As Bone Shatter is not typically my go to offensive spell in most cases, I've split off to include other lores. Anecdotally, I can tell you that when I do use Bone Shatter it definitely seems more effective post lore training than it did pre lore training. Just because something seems true though, doesn't necessarily mean it is and I realize that.

[Peppwyn]

If I went down to 2x PF (I was doing 3x for maneuvers and GoS sigil of mana), no MIU/AS, I could get something like 59 Empath, 22 MnS, 23 MjS at level 38. That looks pretty good on paper. I'll have to play around a bit with the lack of runestaff. I'll miss the ensorcel and acuity flares though.

[Nahkaev]

@peppwyn https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/CS

that's the go-to guide to min-maxing your CS.

I should warn you, though, that it's best to take a pragmatic approach rather than go straight to the mattresses for *ONLY* CS. At low levels , adopting a build that focuses on CS to the exclusion of everything else can leave you in a goofy spot.

presuming you're level 39ish-- I'd be aiming to get as close to the level+21 threshold for empath base as possible, and then pivot the rest of your training around that. If you're 39 that means 60 ranks of empath - and assuming you're doing 2.5 spells/level, that's around the low 20's for your other circles. Like I said- pragmatism is necessary- so if you're keen on return-fogging you may want to grab that 130 and leave your 200's behind a little... alternatively if you're really keen on having a strong Bind (214) CS because you hunt with a buddy who is making physical attacks - then maybe push forward in the 200's and leave the 100's at 20 ranks for a while.

beyond the +21 threshold you really have to be careful. 20-60 above level yes, does grant .5CS compared to the .33CS from your other 2 circles -- however -- those other two circles are going to contribute quite a bit to your survivability and utility. 102 and 120 both grow with MnS ranks and 202 grows with MjS ranks -- so for my characters I like to pay heed to the .66*level threshold for minor circles

[Peppwyn]

Okay, so I am off by 1 Empath spell if i have 59 at 38? I think I might just go for spell aiming, see how that works out, revert to boneshatter build if that sucks.

[Nahkaev]

59 ranks at 38 is exactly where you want to be i think

should be level + 21

but-- anything below 21 is great too! It's just that 21 is where you want to stop

[Gnomad]

Yeah, 21 ranks past level is the "Okay, I want more CS but don't want to stress about the details" rule of thumb. 21 ranks gives 16 CS.

A Quick Guide to Boosting CS and being Useful:
Train Empath spells in that circle until you're at Your Level + 21 ranks. Keep training once per level to keep it at Level + 21.
Train at least to 219 and 120. 220 and 225 are fun, and I'd train them, but they're not optimal, and 225 is less necessary in our post-;go2 world.
If you want to be able to rescue, go for 130 first. Otherwise, go for 240 first, then go for 140.
Go back to training Empath exclusively until you're at Level + 61.
1x Empath, and alternate the rest of your spell ranks between 100 and 200 until they hit 67 each.
Hey, congrats, you're almost definitely post-cap! Put the rest of your spells in Empath, unless you rely a lot on Bind or Unbalance or CS Web or something.


There's really only 1 lore I can support for any young empath, and 2 others based on your choices:

Telepathy: Increases link chance for 1117, and it's seed 1 so a little bit goes a long way. 15 ranks is 50% -> 60% link chance, a 20% improvement. Even 6 ranks is 50%->56%, a 12% improvement. If you're a Voln empath, 0.5x lets 1120 affect undead and 1x ensures it will, but that's a big cost.

Blessings (Sunfist/Warpath only): 1107 will give stamina back every 5 minutes. Nice boost to Sigil of Power or if you're regularly MSTRIKE-ing. 25 at 15 ranks, 50 at 35 ranks, all stamina at 65 ranks. Also provides boosts to 215 and 117 for bolters/swingers and helps 203.

Summoning (Bolters only): Web bolt is really, really good. 20 ranks unlocks it.

I don't like:

Transformation: If you're competing for wounds in TSC or something, I guess reducing healing RT is important. Otherwise, it's a lot of cost for what you get.

Manipulation: The instant kill chances are rough for the points you spend, and are reduced if your endroll isn't 150 or more. 40 ranks gives you a 1/20 instant kill chance on a 150 or higher.

Summoning (Non-bolters): Once you can afford to hunt with 1115 regularly instead of 1106, then you can pump it. Until then, it's of dubious utility.

[SpiffyJr]

My build is a bit unique but as a Halfling Empath I really wanted to utilize spell aiming. I'm a GoS member, 3x PF, 2x spell aiming and I'm sitting at about 2.4x spells. I train 1x shield with 1 rank of brawling and I also use a runestaff while casting web bolts. It's fire flaring so I get the bolt web -> fire flare quite often. I'm not sure if it's as powerful as CS only but I don't get hit, ever, because my offensive DS is a good 30 over whatever I'm hunting. I'm self-spelled with 4x armor, 4x shield, 4x runestaff. It's pretty fantastic.

[Peppwyn]

Spiffy, that's the exact boat I am in. I am a halfling trying to take advantage of high dex and maneuver defense with 3x PF. Could you share your skills? Could you share some logs of hunting? PM is fine.

[Peppwyn]

So, if everyone is doing open hand offensive casting ... are there any items that give flares or anything for that setup? I feel like there are such cool things out there on runestaves (flares, acuity, ensorcel, etc.) that we end up missing out on.

[Tranquia]

Depending on the enemy, I also do empty hands offensive channeling. I use an alias in Lich to rapidly put the runestaff away, switch stances, etc. I just switch back to defensive between enemy swings, don't bother with the runestaff. AS/DS are never the threat, it's always bullshit combat maneuvers that empaths have seemingly no defense against that are responsible for basically all my deaths.

[Versin]

You are right that runestaff bonuses are not that helpful if you keep it stored all the time. I got a NerveStaff for my empath with the idea that the CM flares would help, but it has not been tremendously useful.

[khorpulent]

Your best solution would be to invent a time machine so that you could go back in time to prevent the nerf to 1106 that happened in 2013.

[Kembal]

Depending on the enemy, I also do empty hands offensive channeling. I use an alias in Lich to rapidly put the runestaff away, switch stances, etc. I just switch back to defensive between enemy swings, don't bother with the runestaff. AS/DS are never the threat, it's always bullshit combat maneuvers that empaths have seemingly no defense against that are responsible for basically all my deaths.

2x PF. It helps tremendously. Not sure how viable that is pre-cap.

[khorpulent]

PF is very cheap and 2x is easy to do pre-cap.