New player needs help!

[Demerson]

So, while I'm not exactly new, it's been so long that for all intents and purposes, I am new.

I've dabbled with a Rogue in the past, but I really want to play one for real now. I know very little about training, mostly just what I learned from reading the new player's guide and the basic Rogue info on the gswiki.

I'm looking to play a Rogue that uses two weapon combat, combat manuevers (need to do more info on these), armor use (want to get up to MBP somewhat quickly), stalking & hiding, ambushing, while also training enough in disarming and lockpicking to at least be able to take care of my own boxes.

My question is, is that even doable, because honestly I have no clue. I saw that they have katanas and such these days, my inner 13 year old bristled at the idea of dual wielding katanas.

Basically, any information or advice that could be given would be greatly appreciated.

[Warriorbird]

Dual wielding the current sort of katanas isn't possible (and would be prohibitive as a Rogue were it) though you could easily dual wield some of the old school expensive ones. I'll leave the rest to more qualified folks.

[Astray]

You would have a better time dual wielding katanas as a Warrior. Warriors excel at that kind of high training point cost. Especially with all the peripheral stuff you want to do as well.

[Demerson]

Well, it doesn't have to be katanas. That'd be ideal though.

Problem is, I'm much more attached to the persona of a Rogue. I mean, whoever heard of a stalking, ambushing Warrior that picked his own boxes? Don't answer that, there's probably been one.

[kutter]

It sounds like what you are looking for is a balanced rogue. That is how I have mine setup. He is not a perfect hunter or picker, but is more than adequate at both. He dual wields wakizashis (short swords). I can pick anything he hunts so I am content with that and will stay at 2X picking skills with lore for the times I need it.

(at level 68), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 240 140
Armor Use..........................| 204 104
Combat Maneuvers...................| 214 114
Edged Weapons......................| 240 140
Ambush.............................| 228 128
Physical Fitness...................| 168 68
Dodging............................| 233 133
Arcane Symbols.....................| 50 10
Harness Power......................| 25 5
Disarming Traps....................| 244 144
Picking Locks......................| 242 142
Stalking and Hiding................| 240 140
Perception.........................| 208 108
Climbing...........................| 141 41
Swimming...........................| 93 21

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 4

[Viekn]

So after getting about 3 different rogues to level 10-15, I'll chime in...

Up until about two weeks ago, I was leveling up a rogue that I planned to dual wield a katana and a wakizashi. The general consensus with this though is that a warrior has a much easier time with training points to do this path, so mechanically there's no reason to choose a rogue to do this over a warrior. Remember that to dual wield a katana with another weapon, you have to train OHE, THW, and TWC. My other thought was that combining the natural crit weighting of the katana plus the crit weighting of ambushing from hiding was the shit, but it's not like you're some crit weighted bad ass when you do both, so it was more or less a waste to do both. In the end, I was convinced to try UAC on an ambushing rogue. My previous experience (not extensive in any way) with UAC was not fantastic, so I've always been skeptical of UAC. After trying it out though, I really liked it. Take that with a giant grain of salt though, cause to each their own.

Rogues are kind of labeled as being VERY versatile. Even the Simu website suggests this. I've always tried to roll a rogue that could be a really good lock picker and really good at something else and in the end it never seemed like I was as good at either as I would have liked to be. Is it possible to be a good picker AND good at other stuff as a rogue, absolutely, but I think you definitely sacrifice a bit. If you're fine with that, then go ahead.

Regarding TWC. I love TWC. But on almost every class except a warrior, the training point requirements are fairly high and I feel you generally sacrifice other skills in order to be TWC. This applies to a character that you're growing from level 0 to 50 or so. I think that once you hit 50 (or later, not sure what the general consensus is), that you're training points have increased because of stat gains that it allows for more flexibility with training points to do TWC effectively.

TL;DR: What I've found over the course of trying to build up 10-15 characters of different classes is to more or less embrace that class and go with what makes that class shine. That being said, if you want to be a bit crazy and play your character in your own unique way, it's definitely doable, just have to be patient.

[Viekn]

It sounds like what you are looking for is a balanced rogue. That is how I have mine setup. He is not a perfect hunter or picker, but is more than adequate at both. He dual wields wakizashis (short swords). I can pick anything he hunts so I am content with that and will stay at 2X picking skills with lore for the times I need it.

(at level 68), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 240 140
Armor Use..........................| 204 104
Combat Maneuvers...................| 214 114
Edged Weapons......................| 240 140
Ambush.............................| 228 128
Physical Fitness...................| 168 68
Dodging............................| 233 133
Arcane Symbols.....................| 50 10
Harness Power......................| 25 5
Disarming Traps....................| 244 144
Picking Locks......................| 242 142
Stalking and Hiding................| 240 140
Perception.........................| 208 108
Climbing...........................| 141 41
Swimming...........................| 93 21

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 4

I've also always found any advice from Kutter is generally pretty solid as well. Definitely listened to him a few times over the years.

[kutter]

Thanks Viekn, I try to help where I can.

Demerson, I am not trying to squash your dreams, I hope one day to wield a Katana/wakizashi combo, but that is strictly a post cap goal, even warriors would have trouble doing it and still be able to do anything else pre-cap, it is almost as if they planned it that way.......HEY WAIT A MINUTE!!

As someone with a UAC wizard and a polearm swinging gnome sorc, my cleric swings a big ass axe and my empath punches stuff too, so I like unconventional builds. I just know from crunching the numbers several times that it is simply not possible to do what you want pre-cap. I would probably not even encourage you to go TWC until a little later, just because if you get caught out in light armor at a young age stuck in RT, well, game over, you will be needing my empath and cleric to help out. I was a sword and board ambush rogue till around 40 when I switched to a TWC ambush rogue. Now I just need that lazy wizard of mine to finish enchanting my two perfect wakizashi and I will be good to go!

[Demerson]

Hmm, katanas are two handed then? I did not expect that, that definitely complicates things. I guess now I have to decide whether I want to dual wield short swords, which I'm fine with... or go the route of one katana. Both sound fun, but I'm guessing the short sword variety is more useful. Guess I'll think on that at work, thanks for the advice guys!

[Viekn]

Hmm, katanas are two handed then? I did not expect that, that definitely complicates things. I guess now I have to decide whether I want to dual wield short swords, which I'm fine with... or go the route of one katana. Both sound fun, but I'm guessing the short sword variety is more useful. Guess I'll think on that at work, thanks for the advice guys!

Katana's can be used one handed, but to use them one handed, you have to train in OHE and THW. With using a katana two handed, you only have to train THW. Also, you get a -10 to your AS if you carry something in your other hand when you're using it one handed. If someone dual wields katanas, or a katana and a short sword like I was doing for a bit, it becomes more of an RP thing mostly.

[Enuch]

I was causing a ruckus TWC ambush and was able to easily pick and disarm like level boxes.

If you haven't tried it yet ranged is also fun as is UAC both of which are quite viable. The issue with rogues (in my opinion) and I am sure this is with every class is slogging through the rough years. Particularly for me it was 15-25. Hiding and ambushing was tough with a mixed training pattern, hunts were slower and when I got caught in the open that brig just wasn't enough.

Now I am 32, hide from most things my level even only 2x (undead sometimes find me but can quickly hide again) my ambushing is much cleaner with more accuracy and if I do get caught in the open my augmented chain keeps me from getting steamrolled. Really my biggest worries are TD and swarms.

The first levels may be tough as an ambusher because of accuracy and failed hiding attempts, but you can 2x box stuff and TWC with hiding or 2x box stuff and just about most things and have success. It's really a matter of getting through the tough "years" and making to the other side. When ambush is firing on all cylinders ooh baby can't beat it

[Viekn]

I was causing a ruckus TWC ambush and was able to easily pick and disarm like level boxes.

If you haven't tried it yet ranged is also fun as is UAC both of which are quite viable. The issue with rogues (in my opinion) and I am sure this is with every class is slogging through the rough years. Particularly for me it was 15-25. Hiding and ambushing was tough with a mixed training pattern, hunts were slower and when I got caught in the open that brig just wasn't enough.

Now I am 32, hide from most things my level even only 2x (undead sometimes find me but can quickly hide again) my ambushing is much cleaner with more accuracy and if I do get caught in the open my augmented chain keeps me from getting steamrolled. Really my biggest worries are TD and swarms.

The first levels may be tough as an ambusher because of accuracy and failed hiding attempts, but you can 2x box stuff and TWC with hiding or 2x box stuff and just about most things and have success. It's really a matter of getting through the tough "years" and making to the other side. When ambush is firing on all cylinders ooh baby can't beat it

I'd be curious to hear from some people who are level 50+. Unless I'm mistaken (which is always a good possibility) it always seemed like to do 2x pick/disarm and TWC meant I had to sacrifice somewhere. For me that was armor training and from what I've heard, especially with ambushing TWC when you leave yourself open in RT, if you're not wearing heavier armors you're going to get wrecked by critters when you're in your higher levels.

[Jeril]

I'd be curious to hear from some people who are level 50+. Unless I'm mistaken (which is always a good possibility) it always seemed like to do 2x pick/disarm and TWC meant I had to sacrifice somewhere. For me that was armor training and from what I've heard, especially with ambushing TWC when you leave yourself open in RT, if you're not wearing heavier armors you're going to get wrecked by critters when you're in your higher levels.

This depends on what you consider standard training.
2x weapon
2x dodge
1x armor
1x PF
2x s/h
1x ambush
1x cman
1x perception
1x climb/swim
1x shield/TWC

The above to me is what I consider standard and anything more is just gravy. If you are trying to 2x all the things I'm pretty sure you'll have to make 'cuts' somewhere.

I thought the idea behind playing a rogue was to not leave yourself open? If you happen to have a terrible internet connection and it can't be helped I can understand that though.

[Viekn]

This depends on what you consider standard training.
2x weapon
2x dodge
1x armor
1x PF
2x s/h
1x ambush
1x cman
1x perception
1x climb/swim
1x shield/TWC

The above to me is what I consider standard and anything more is just gravy. If you are trying to 2x all the things I'm pretty sure you'll have to make 'cuts' somewhere.

I thought the idea behind playing a rogue was to not leave yourself open? If you happen to have a terrible internet connection and it can't be helped I can understand that though.

Precisely my thoughts. I would always try to do the above training and add 2x pick and disarm and would never have the training points to do it all. I could never seem to give up on my dream though of being 2x pick/disarm and still trying to do the standard training. Invariably I always wound up with some mutant build that seemed like it was working in the short term but eventually I was going to run in to issues when the game really started getting serious around level 50 or so, so I always gave up on the character. Which is why despite rogues typically being labeled as VERY versatile, I think for the short term (level 0-75?) one is best off choosing whether they want to be a picking rogue or adept at hunting via ambush/ranged. Long term though I think is where their versatility can really shine, I just never got there.

[zennsunni]

Thanks Viekn, I try to help where I can.

Demerson, I am not trying to squash your dreams, I hope one day to wield a Katana/wakizashi combo, but that is strictly a post cap goal, even warriors would have trouble doing it and still be able to do anything else pre-cap, it is almost as if they planned it that way.......HEY WAIT A MINUTE!!

As someone with a UAC wizard and a polearm swinging gnome sorc, my cleric swings a big ass axe and my empath punches stuff too, so I like unconventional builds. I just know from crunching the numbers several times that it is simply not possible to do what you want pre-cap. I would probably not even encourage you to go TWC until a little later, just because if you get caught out in light armor at a young age stuck in RT, well, game over, you will be needing my empath and cleric to help out. I was a sword and board ambush rogue till around 40 when I switched to a TWC ambush rogue. Now I just need that lazy wizard of mine to finish enchanting my two perfect wakizashi and I will be good to go!

It would be interesting to play an ambushing rogue that uses a katana by itself, like a ninja. They are light enough and fast enough that you could probably ambush pretty accurately with them, though THW ambushing is one of the few areas of mechanics I don't really know anything about.

As for TWC, I've always found it to be overkill with rogues. The truth is that a well-trained rogue is typically going to one-shot a well set up victim with a single blow, and that if you want to do TWC, you need to be committed to it as a style and flavor choice; don't delude yourself into thinking it's an optimal training path for rogues.

[Velfi]

I'll just chime in that I think TWC is a bit silly and a huge waste of TPs if you're pre-cap. It's cool if that's your RP and that's what you want to do, but mechanically it's just not worth the TP tradeoff for other skills in my opinion. Being TWC and what I would consider a good locksmith is pretty infeasible without a lot of exp.

[zennsunni]

I'll just chime in that I think TWC is a bit silly and a huge waste of TPs if you're pre-cap. It's cool if that's your RP and that's what you want to do, but mechanically it's just not worth the TP tradeoff for other skills in my opinion. Being TWC and what I would consider a good locksmith is pretty infeasible without a lot of exp.

I agree with Velfi, but make an exception for Warriors. They can handle the TP cost pretty easily, and a dual wielding warrior is a really effective training path, in some cases even optimal (i.e. against non-corp)!

[Versin]

The first rule of gemstone is that you can make any training path work, given enough patience.

With that caveat, TWC + katana ambushing are a bit at odds. The goal of TWC is fast weapons (typical short swords) + flares, while ambushing katanas are about slicing off legs/heads from the shadows. If you are in your first 30 days back, you can instantly migrate skills, so you might try both styles and see which one you like best. As others have said katanas are particularly TP intensive. The choice of combat style will also impact the importance of pushing MBP - typically lighter armors for ambushing. If you go TWC you will want some MOC, and the Whirling Dervish cman.

2x pick/disarm plus 404 is sufficient for your own boxes.



So, while I'm not exactly new, it's been so long that for all intents and purposes, I am new.

I've dabbled with a Rogue in the past, but I really want to play one for real now. I know very little about training, mostly just what I learned from reading the new player's guide and the basic Rogue info on the gswiki.

I'm looking to play a Rogue that uses two weapon combat, combat manuevers (need to do more info on these), armor use (want to get up to MBP somewhat quickly), stalking & hiding, ambushing, while also training enough in disarming and lockpicking to at least be able to take care of my own boxes.

My question is, is that even doable, because honestly I have no clue. I saw that they have katanas and such these days, my inner 13 year old bristled at the idea of dual wielding katanas.

Basically, any information or advice that could be given would be greatly appreciated.

[Velfi]

2x pick/disarm plus 404 is sufficient for your own boxes.

This stops being true by minos if not sooner.

[Enuch]

Precisely my thoughts. I would always try to do the above training and add 2x pick and disarm and would never have the training points to do it all. I could never seem to give up on my dream though of being 2x pick/disarm and still trying to do the standard training. Invariably I always wound up with some mutant build that seemed like it was working in the short term but eventually I was going to run in to issues when the game really started getting serious around level 50 or so, so I always gave up on the character. Which is why despite rogues typically being labeled as VERY versatile, I think for the short term (level 0-75?) one is best off choosing whether they want to be a picking rogue or adept at hunting via ambush/ranged. Long term though I think is where their versatility can really shine, I just never got there.

I specced out of it but I was actually 2x TWC to boot and somehow managed the points to 2x in picking crap and had 404 as well. I think my training was tight but at 32 I was squared. I may have had my guy optimized for TPs too, and I stopped armor at 50 but I got to 50 at like 27-28

[Enuch]

This stops being true by minos if not sooner.

I thought it was true to a degree, I think it's well known that Minos are mean and banshees have insane traps or locks I forget which but for the most part I haven't heard of much that really is outlandish unless there is something post cap. This is just from sitting in east tower talking to fellow rogues though. But I am just slightly above 2x now as UAC and at 32 am getting 35-38 boxes without using lore

[Demerson]

Damn, you guys have given me a lot of food for thought. It's definitely going to be tough to make a decision!

[Velfi]

I thought it was true to a degree, I think it's well known that Minos are mean and banshees have insane traps or locks I forget which but for the most part I haven't heard of much that really is outlandish unless there is something post cap. This is just from sitting in east tower talking to fellow rogues though. But I am just slightly above 2x now as UAC and at 32 am getting 35-38 boxes without using lore

There's not many soft locks above mino level or so. Some of the Rift boxes from plane 1/2 and OTF boxes might be doable with 2x (possibly with extra levels), but you're not opening Bowels, or Nelemar, or Scatter boxes like that.

[Demerson]

Alright, so... if I wanted to use a single katana w/ ambushing, would it be decent at all? If not, I'll probably just go the way of regular TWC with short swords.

[Viekn]

Alright, so... if I wanted to use a single katana w/ ambushing, would it be decent at all? If not, I'll probably just go the way of regular TWC with short swords.

Have you read this thread yet: http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?102826-Mutant-ohe-thw-twc-build

I got a lot of advice on almost the exact same build you're thinking of. Doesn't mean you can't make it work. In the end I just decided I was spending too much time on building a new character vs the 3 established characters I already have.

[Warriorbird]

Damn, you guys have given me a lot of food for thought. It's definitely going to be tough to make a decision!

I thought they'd respond!


Alright, so... if I wanted to use a single katana w/ ambushing, would it be decent at all? If not, I'll probably just go the way of regular TWC with short swords.

If you kept it in two handed mode this seems challenging but more doable by far.

[Viekn]

Using a katana in two handed mode was definitely more doable. If you're using the katana for RP then ambushing with a katana is fine. In my mind I was doubling up on the crit weighting (natural katana weighting + ambush crit weighting) but was told it doesn't quite work like that. If you do end up using a katana, pick yourself up one of the Greame katana sashes/harnesses. It was nice to have when I used my katana. If you want to go uber, the katana Amerek has in his shop is pretty sweet. But you also need to consider old style katana (modified falchion) vs. new style.

[Jeril]

Using a katana in two handed mode was definitely more doable. If you're using the katana for RP then ambushing with a katana is fine. In my mind I was doubling up on the crit weighting (natural katana weighting + ambush crit weighting) but was told it doesn't quite work like that. If you do end up using a katana, pick yourself up one of the Greame katana sashes/harnesses. It was nice to have when I used my katana. If you want to go uber, the katana Amerek has in his shop is pretty sweet. But you also need to consider old style katana (modified falchion) vs. new style.

You actually do double up on the weighting. Once you get into the higher levels the weighting from ambush alone is enough to achieve rank 9 crits before randomizing so you don't need weighting on the weapon itself any more unless you plan on attacking from the open.

[Viekn]

You actually do double up on the weighting. Once you get into the higher levels the weighting from ambush alone is enough to achieve rank 9 crits before randomizing so you don't need weighting on the weapon itself any more unless you plan on attacking from the open.

Ahh, gotcha. Thanks for clarifying that Jeril.

[Kalishar]

2x pick/disarm plus 404 is sufficient for MOST of your own boxes.

Fixed that. Velfi is right, from around minos and up you'll find more and more boxes that you just can't get. Will you still be able to get most of them open? Yes, especially if you learn some lockmastery and can wedge.

[Demerson]

So, I tried out a 2h Rogue for a couple levels... honestly, not really feeling it. Probably works better later on like people say, but I realized I need something that feels engaging even early on. Is there anything that's effective early game and still effective late game?

[Jeril]

Try the old stand by of sword/board? Have you tried a TWC build yet? I like hiding and ambushing during the early levels just because it amuses me. I've also done a ranged rogue but man ranged is annoying with how often you miss for a while.

[Demerson]

Try the old stand by of sword/board? Have you tried a TWC build yet? I like hiding and ambushing during the early levels just because it amuses me. I've also done a ranged rogue but man ranged is annoying with how often you miss for a while.

Sword and board... I dunno, just doesn't fit my idea of a Rogue. I rerolled with the intention of TWC and I'm already enjoying it way more.

2x edged weapons
2x TWC
2.5x dodging (probably up this to 3x)
1.5x cman
2x ambush
2x s&h
2x armor use
1x PF
2x pick (might try to swing 3x on this and disarm)
2x disarm
3x-4x perception

I'd greatly appreciate some feedback!

[droit]

If you haven't checked out CMAN Whirling Dervish, do. It's pretty amazing for TWC ambushers.

[Demerson]

If you haven't checked out CMAN Whirling Dervish, do. It's pretty amazing for TWC ambushers.

I just checked it out now and I'll be sure to pick it up, it sounds way too useful to pass up.

[Arqueto]

Sword and board... I dunno, just doesn't fit my idea of a Rogue. I rerolled with the intention of TWC and I'm already enjoying it way more.

2x edged weapons
2x TWC
2.5x dodging (probably up this to 3x)
1.5x cman
2x ambush
2x s&h
2x armor use
1x PF
2x pick (might try to swing 3x on this and disarm)
2x disarm
3x-4x perception

I'd greatly appreciate some feedback!

Perception caps at 3x, just FYI.

[Viekn]

Sword and board... I dunno, just doesn't fit my idea of a Rogue. I rerolled with the intention of TWC and I'm already enjoying it way more.

2x edged weapons
2x TWC
2.5x dodging (probably up this to 3x)
1.5x cman
2x ambush
2x s&h
2x armor use
1x PF
2x pick (might try to swing 3x on this and disarm)
2x disarm
3x-4x perception

I'd greatly appreciate some feedback!

What level are you currently? I just put my level 15 rogue on hold, so I can't check an established character, but I just hopped on my level 3 F2P mule who is a rogue and I can't get close to the training plan you just specified with my TP's available, unless I'm doing something wrong.

[Jeril]

Sword and board... I dunno, just doesn't fit my idea of a Rogue. I rerolled with the intention of TWC and I'm already enjoying it way more.

2x edged weapons
2x TWC
2.5x dodging (probably up this to 3x)
1.5x cman
2x ambush
2x s&h
2x armor use
1x PF
2x pick (might try to swing 3x on this and disarm)
2x disarm
3x-4x perception

I'd greatly appreciate some feedback!

I would suggest you start with
2x edged
2x twc
2x s/h
1x ambush
2x dodge
1x armor
1x PF
1x cman
2x perception
2x pick
2x disarm
10 ranks of arcane symbols
1x climb/swim as needed

I also suggest not opening your own boxes until you have 30 ranks pick/disarm and those 10 ranks of symbols. You don't get full exp for picking boxes until 30 ranks in picking and 10 ranks of symbols should be enough , at your level, to let you disarm scarabs without dying.

[Demerson]

What level are you currently? I just put my level 15 rogue on hold, so I can't check an established character, but I just hopped on my level 3 F2P mule who is a rogue and I can't get close to the training plan you just specified with my TP's available, unless I'm doing something wrong.

Literally just started, so only level 2. Seems like I could just barely eek out that training regimen, but I'm not sure. It's also harder because apparently you need 30 ranks of MOC in order to pick up Whirling Dervish.

[Demerson]

I would suggest you start with
2x edged
2x twc
2x s/h
1x ambush
2x dodge
1x armor
1x PF
1x cman
2x perception
2x pick
2x disarm
10 ranks of arcane symbols
1x climb/swim as needed

I also suggest not opening your own boxes until you have 30 ranks pick/disarm and those 10 ranks of symbols. You don't get full exp for picking boxes until 30 ranks in picking and 10 ranks of symbols should be enough , at your level, to let you disarm scarabs without dying.

I'll try that out, thanks. I think my only grievance with that would be 1x armor, since I'd like to wear more protective armor fairly quickly.

[Wesley]

I'll try that out, thanks. I think my only grievance with that would be 1x armor, since I'd like to wear more protective armor fairly quickly.

What I like to do sometimes is rush myself to breakpoints to get into a next big bump in armor class. I'll sacrifice a bit of picking power to get into brig early, for example, and so on and so forth. You'll never get yourself all the way to MBP as a rogue in one fell swoop and still maintain the ability to really handle anything else in your training plan, but you can rush to the breakpoints and then let them drop slowly back to 1x as you catch up on the other stuff.