To Spell Aim or not to Spell Aim

[Raliver]

When I created my sorcerer I had planned to do Spell Aiming to give myself more options, specifically getting the necro required to bolt 705. However, the spell is underwhelming and at 20 I don't feel as if it's smart, quick, etc to use bolts over 702 spam. While a bit boring to use the same spell.

So, I know I've read benefits to both side but is there a point where possibly bringing Spell Aiming back is more beneficial than early in the game? When I'm using Implosion or some such? As it stands I could drop those ranks and add about 6 spells for the equivalent use of TPs. Is the benefit at this stage in the game the ability to utilize wands against critters tough to ward?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[nindon]

At level 20, I would go for a higher CS and mostly stick with 702. You can make up the spell aiming ranks when you get to level 30 or 35. You will want spell aiming eventually for 708, 710 and 720, even if you do not use bolt spells.

At then end of your career, spell aiming can be very powerful. Balefire and Web bolt are both awesome with the right skills and in the right situation, but Balefire takes a ton of mana (15 mana per cast, if you include the demon flare). Like you, I am not impressed with Disintegrate bolt. I used it for a while in the Confluence, but it makes the elementals disappear with no message that they're gone, which is terribly annoying.

Pawn the wands.

[Fallen]

1700 can be used in bolt form as well for 0 mana. It may be useful to you for finishing creatures that you cannot reliably hit with your CS spells. Also consider that Spell Aim provides cheap rune staff ranks to keep your DS up to par, if that's the play style you're using. That being said I don't necessarily disagree with Nindon. You could always give it a few months and add the ranks back via fixskill. By then you could also use scroll infusion to make use of outside spells to raise your bolt AS reliably as well. Whereas at 20, infusing those spells (211, 215, 513, etc) will prove difficult.

[Allereli]

here's my blurb from the sorcerer page on the wiki:


Adds directly to the power of a sorcerer's focused Energy Maelstrom (710), and Implosion (720) spells. Those with less than 2× per level in this skill will have severe penalties to their CS when using the targeted version of Limb Disruption (708).
Spell Aiming is also the primary factor when determining the attack strength (AS) of one's bolt spells. Sorcerers have direct access to five bolt spells (Arcane Blast (1700), Fire Spirit (111), Balefire (713), and potentially Disintegrate (705) and Web (118)), and bolting can be a reliable form of attack against foes whose target defense (TD) is difficult to overcome. Spell Aiming provides AS to any bolt spell, meaning a low level sorcerer proficiently trained in Spell Aiming could reliably use the wands of any profession to supplement mana.
It can be also considered a cheap magical skill in the sense that the majority of its cost is in physical training points, which sorcerers often have an excess of. Either don't train in Spell Aiming or train 2× per level.

Another factor to take into account is if you're actually playing a sorcerer or script hunting a bot up.

[Allereli]

I used it for a while in the Confluence, but it makes the elementals disappear with no message that they're gone, which is terribly annoying.

sounds like a bug

[Raliver]

here's my blurb from the sorcerer page on the wiki:



Another factor to take into account is if you're actually playing a sorcerer or script hunting a bot up.

Yeah, I read the wiki and the points are what made me consider keeping it. I like having the versatility and options (I started him out using a bow to add another option...it just wasn't nearly as fun as melting things). I just haven't found myself in a position I had to use bolts/wands and when I did I wasn't impressed with how they did - either my own bolts or having to keep up with wands.

I think I will go ahead and drop it for now along with tweak a few other things. I've doubled my harness power and thinking it may be unnecessary with Wracking and sacrifice - especially since I am pushing for 30 ranks of necro to have no spirit loss on success. This will allow me to greatly increase my Sorcerer spells and get closer to that coveted +21.

Thanks all for quick responses.

[Raliver]

If I drop my Harness Power to 1x (From 2x) and dropped spell aiming (from 2x), I'm effectively losing 2.5x magical ranks for runestaff DS (picked up 14 additional Sorcerer spells by dropping those and moving spirit spells to sorcerer).

According to the wiki, if I did my math right it looks like that'll be about 5.4 DS loss in guarded. That seem right? Seems like the deficit will grow as I gain levels, but at that point I can try to make up those ranks in spell aiming, etc.

[Maerit]

I did a stint where I wanted to maximize my scroll infusion while increasing my ranks in MnE and MnS. I dropped all spell aiming, and barely missed it. Instead of using 708, I just used 709. 708 is the more "friendly" control mechanic because you won't hinder any other players, but 709 targets hostile NPCs first anyway, and only pulls players down when all hostile targets are laying down (which does happen, but it's not nearly as annoying as it used to be).

When DR Arena was back in, I immediately fixskilled back to having 2x in Spell Aim. Because when 717 didn't insta-kill my target, 720 would finish the job nicely. That's the only time I really need any spell aim abilities.

708 is really all that you'll bother using with spell aiming. It's a nice-to-have. Pumping up your CS and Necro Lore ranks at the expense of spell aim is mechanically more advantageous for pure sorcerers. You will not need bother with 710. 708 is amazing, and the best control spell we have (perhaps in game), but there is no need to rely on that spell when you have room-effect 703 and 709 at your disposal.

[Whirlin]

I did a stint where I wanted to maximize my scroll infusion while increasing my ranks in MnE and MnS. I dropped all spell aiming, and barely missed it. Instead of using 708, I just used 709. 708 is the more "friendly" control mechanic because you won't hinder any other players, but 709 targets hostile NPCs first anyway, and only pulls players down when all hostile targets are laying down (which does happen, but it's not nearly as annoying as it used to be).

When DR Arena was back in, I immediately fixskilled back to having 2x in Spell Aim. Because when 717 didn't insta-kill my target, 720 would finish the job nicely. That's the only time I really need any spell aim abilities.

708 is really all that you'll bother using with spell aiming. It's a nice-to-have. Pumping up your CS and Necro Lore ranks at the expense of spell aim is mechanically more advantageous for pure sorcerers. You will not need bother with 710. 708 is amazing, and the best control spell we have (perhaps in game), but there is no need to rely on that spell when you have room-effect 703 and 709 at your disposal.

Maerit just touched on all the points I would as well... I know when I was rather recently leveling my Cleric, I went spell aiming when at super low levels... This was because AS resolved attacks seemed more advantageous due to GS3>GS4 migration, and inflated TD values, and due to having mana issues, and wanting to rely on Wizard Wands to span the gap. Once annual fixskills came around, I found myself around 40ish, and I got rid of all of my spell aiming and just went a pure CS build... CS values had stabilized and were incredibly reliable to depend on to fry on a single head of mana, and the mana pool was comfortable. All of this was about 3 years ago, before 1700 was introduced. I realize that Cleric != Sorc... but the same concepts apply for AS versus CS at lower levels.

I'd recommend starting with it, and seeing what your playstyle ends up evolving into, and either sticking to it, or getting rid of it after an evaluation period... annual fixskills is a great opportunity to re-evaluate.

[Wesley]

Pfft. Don't listen to these chumps. What do they know. Whirlin? Come on. That guy doesn't know anything about sorcerers. Listen to your good pal Wesley. I made a sorcerer the other day and just made level 4 with him on my first Lumnis, so I'm basically an expert.

In an unrelated matter, I agree with what Whirlin just said and have nothing useful to add, as my primary source of modern knowledge about sorcerers came from reading his sorcerer guide the other day. But I've now made an appearance in this thread and will therefore claim all responsibility for having solved your problem. You're welcome. You now owe me.

Carry on.

[Whirlin]

Pfft. Don't listen to these chumps. What do they know. Whirlin? Come on. That guy doesn't know anything about sorcerers. Listen to your good pal Wesley. I made a sorcerer the other day and just made level 4 with him on my first Lumnis, so I'm basically an expert.

In an unrelated matter, I agree with what Whirlin just said and have nothing useful to add, as my primary source of modern knowledge about sorcerers came from reading his sorcerer guide the other day. But I've now made an appearance in this thread and will therefore claim all responsibility for having solved your problem. You're welcome. You now owe me.

Carry on.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/ktf.gif

[Wesley]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/ktf.gif

http://static.deathandtaxesmag.com/uploads/2016/02/shocked-goat.jpg

[Entropy Spider]

I came back after a 20 year break and people said spell aiming was all the rage so I spec'd into it at 30th level. 10 levels later, the number of times I had aimed a spell could be counted on one hand. I spec'd back out of it as soon as the fixskills came available. There was absolutely not one situation where a 15 mana Balefire or 8 or so mana Fire Spirit would have been superior to a Mana Disruption or Disintegrate. Get you a few flavors of flaring runestaff. Focus on your core skills - don't skip climbing swimming.

Gramelfein

[Malisai]

My thoughts.

Spell aim is wonderful and worth the points. Specifically for 708. If nothing else, for 708. Its helpful for 720 and 710, which is a bonus. Dont need it for bolts.

708 allows you to disable almost every creature in the game. things cant cast or use weapons without a right arm (very few exceptions, such as a "spell" being counted as an ability). Without the right leg, they cant do things like charge/tackle and get put on their butt. Its advantage over 706 is that it works on more things and its permanent (critters cant dispel it). The downside is the 140 endroll needed.

Next to 702 it was probably my most used attack spell.

I would get it, even just 1x in sorcerer spells (as Mal was until capish) I had enough CS to not worry about using it. I would eventually get to 1x HP, since as you level mana becomes less of an issue.

However spell aim should be an all or nothing, 2x it or dont train it.

I would train it.

[subzero]

Tanks have cannons and gun turrets. Jets are equipped with guns in addition to various bombs/missiles. Why would you want to be a sorcerer with only one of these weapons rather than both?

[Maerit]

Tanks have cannons and gun turrets. Jets are equipped with guns in addition to various bombs/missiles. Why would you want to be a sorcerer with only one of these weapons rather than both?

Because sorcerers aren't tanks or jets. They're cannons (of the glass variety). And cannons only fire cannonballs, duh! You can try to fire something other than a cannonball out of a cannon, but it just isn't as deadly as the cannonball.

[Fallen]

Tanks have cannons and gun turrets. Jets are equipped with guns in addition to various bombs/missiles. Why would you want to be a sorcerer with only one of these weapons rather than both?

I always agreed with this approach as well. I understand the mentality of wanting the highest CS possible, but you lose a lot of diversity in doing so. Even if it isn't optimal, it is fun having more means to attack than a few warding-based spells.

[subzero]

You can try to fire something other than a cannonball out of a cannon, but it just isn't as deadly as the cannonball.

Sure, right up until you run into a situation where the cannonball just isn't as effective as the other weapon. Sometimes there are even things flat out immune to cannonballs.

Different jobs, different tools. I like my toolbox full.

[crb]

I came back after a 20 year break and people said spell aiming was all the rage so I spec'd into it at 30th level. 10 levels later, the number of times I had aimed a spell could be counted on one hand. I spec'd back out of it as soon as the fixskills came available. There was absolutely not one situation where a 15 mana Balefire or 8 or so mana Fire Spirit would have been superior to a Mana Disruption or Disintegrate. Get you a few flavors of flaring runestaff. Focus on your core skills - don't skip climbing swimming.

Gramelfein

Two+ critters in the room.

[crb]

Why do you do all this sacrificing to eek out, 3 or 5 extra CS points? Is that going to make a difference? Hunt something 1 level younger, boom, you're welcome. Now you're diversified with the exact same warding margin on what you hunt.

CS is completely overrated. What do you do when you encounter something with a TD that makes it hard to impossible to hit? Curse? Big chunk of mana? 413, good luck with that, and look, more mana. And then you probably, possibly, maybe, hit it. Maybe not. Typically CS hunting at level you're going to have what? a 60-80% hit rate? With bolt spells it exceeds 100% on average, and if you find something with too high a DS, its really, really, really easy to adjust that. You, as a sorcerer, have all these disabling spells, and not a one of them (outside of the one curse) does anything to make a critter easier to hit with a CS spell, but basically all of them make it easier to hit with a AS spell.

And yes, which spell do you have in your arsenal that will damage and stun every critter in the room? 135? 435? Nice use of mana those. Both balefire and fire spirit will do that deed. Imagine, crowd control simultaneous with killing shit. You can both disable everything in the room while killing your target.

And, by the way, web bolt is one of the single best disablers in game.

I for one would never go below 2x spell aim for something so paltry as a few extra spell ranks.

Also, by the way, spell aiming is cheap. We're not discussing the merits of training combat maneuvers here, it is spell aiming. You can afford it.

And skip climbing and swimming, especially swimming, until you need it, which is not until whatever level they made the rift or otf minimum now. Sure, a couple other places, but you won't need to visit them. Climbing you could get 15 ranks and never touch it again if you don't want to visit a few specific places (up around pinefar, etc), which, with the current volume of hunting areas, you could.

But don't skip spell aiming.

You can of course hunt without ever using a spell that ties in with spell aiming, but for gods sakes, why would you want to?

Finally, if you want to participate heavily in invasions, get spell aiming. Invasion critters are notorious for ridiculous TDs (like 800). But you can still hit them with bolts.

[azim17]

listen to fallen and CRB...they are wise in the ways of sorcery.

[Soulance]

There's nothing wrong with using CS spells. My Cleric capped basically using only 302 and my Sorc is now around 65 and has pretty much only used 705 and 702 to get there. I do 1x in SA for the fun of it, but for ensorcelling purposes I pretty much just dump things into Sorc spell circle though I also have pretty much the top spell in each circle. I forget exactly. The nice thing, Sorcs get the 425 that Clerics don't so there is even less of an issue.

Now with 502, I've been using it more with my Wizards so what they said about having both...well, it is more fun for sure. I can switch between bolting and CS damaging depending on what I'm hunting. Some critters in OTF become untouchable with one or the other occasionally. Griffins are pretty resistant to CS though they can be taken down, but aren't big fans of AS spells.

[subzero]

There's nothing wrong with using CS spells. My Cleric capped basically using only 302 and my Sorc is now around 65 and has pretty much only used 705 and 702 to get there. I do 1x in SA for the fun of it, but for ensorcelling purposes I pretty much just dump things into Sorc spell circle though I also have pretty much the top spell in each circle. I forget exactly. The nice thing, Sorcs get the 425 that Clerics don't so there is even less of an issue.

No one said there was anything wrong with using CS spells. We're just suggesting that since you have access to two different types of weapons there is no reason to ignore one of them in favor of the other; you can easily have both.


Now with 502, I've been using it more with my Wizards so what they said about having both...well, it is more fun for sure. I can switch between bolting and CS damaging depending on what I'm hunting. Some critters in OTF become untouchable with one or the other occasionally. Griffins are pretty resistant to CS though they can be taken down, but aren't big fans of AS spells.

:cheers:

[Maerit]

The main problem with bolting as a young sorcerer is specifically the cost to get AS comparable to wizards. You have to maintain star curse buff to really bolt well as a sorc, and its going to be rare to use those spells early on. I 2x in spell aim for DR only. I don't even need to use 708 at my train (76), and I overhunt also.

Room effect 703, if I need to disable, 709, then just kill things one at a time with either 711 or 719. Young sorcs can easily kill with 702 and 705 for undead.

Maybe bolting gets leaps and bounds better at cap, but in my experimenting with sorcerer bolts - they suck horribly. The damage of 705 bolts is weaker that channeled 705 warding. 713 seems to only be strong if you have demon lore and a good summon by your side. Necro lore is far superior for combat value by comparison. 111 is fun vs trolls, but doesn't pay off when you consider the mana cost. 118 is expensive to train for bolting.

In the end, if you don't rely on 708 or 720, you're barely going to miss spell aim... At least until cap, at which point you will easily have TPs to train SA to 2x.

[Maerit]

I think so many people advocating for spell aim are so far past cap on their sorcerer they lose the context that you're giving advice to a level 20 sorcerer. How many casts of 713 or 111 do you expect a 20 sorc to have mana for? What about society considerations? If you are COL and rely on wracking, your spirit drain will destroy you bolting AS making bolts nearly worthless, but spirit has no impact on CS.

Just need to keep it all in perspective. Over training spell ranks at early levels has a significantly larger impact on CS, and changes your damage thresholds much more significantly. Once you reach that magical level+21 spell training for sorcerer ranks, that's when branching out becomes more advantageous. I also find immense value in 1x necro lore for animating and pain, but for a level 20 sorc, that is much lower on the priority list..

[Allereli]

You really don't need +21 sorcerer spells for hunting.

The end.

[rolfard]

One has options: sacrifice it all for that CS is one option.

Small print: sacrifices include other spells, mana, aiming, lore, tertiary magical skills, physical skills but would not recommend less than 1x fitness and perception

[Whirlin]

The main problem with bolting as a young sorcerer is specifically the cost to get AS comparable to wizards. You have to maintain star curse buff to really bolt well as a sorc, and its going to be rare to use those spells early on. I 2x in spell aim for DR only. I don't even need to use 708 at my train (76), and I overhunt also.

Room effect 703, if I need to disable, 709, then just kill things one at a time with either 711 or 719. Young sorcs can easily kill with 702 and 705 for undead.

Maybe bolting gets leaps and bounds better at cap, but in my experimenting with sorcerer bolts - they suck horribly. The damage of 705 bolts is weaker that channeled 705 warding. 713 seems to only be strong if you have demon lore and a good summon by your side. Necro lore is far superior for combat value by comparison. 111 is fun vs trolls, but doesn't pay off when you consider the mana cost. 118 is expensive to train for bolting.

In the end, if you don't rely on 708 or 720, you're barely going to miss spell aim... At least until cap, at which point you will easily have TPs to train SA to 2x.

I actually think spell aiming is MORE important at lower levels, as it opens up your ability to use more various types of wands to alleviate mana pool concerns. It's that mid-tier, 30s through 70s, where I don't find it as valuable.

[subzero]

I think so many people advocating for spell aim are so far past cap on their sorcerer they lose the context that you're giving advice to a level 20 sorcerer. How many casts of 713 or 111 do you expect a 20 sorc to have mana for? What about society considerations? If you are COL and rely on wracking, your spirit drain will destroy you bolting AS making bolts nearly worthless, but spirit has no impact on CS.

Just need to keep it all in perspective. Over training spell ranks at early levels has a significantly larger impact on CS, and changes your damage thresholds much more significantly. Once you reach that magical level+21 spell training for sorcerer ranks, that's when branching out becomes more advantageous. I also find immense value in 1x necro lore for animating and pain, but for a level 20 sorc, that is much lower on the priority list..

I've always leveled with spell aim in the training plan. Yes, bolting as a lower level sorcerer is the more difficult path, but again, no one is really suggesting that people train in spell aiming so they can hunt exclusively with bolts.

+21 is nice, but not something I cared about until cap. I do like staying alive, though, and being able to rely on 708 and 720 is pretty nice at just about any level. I'm far more comfortable with a caster not having an arm than using the :fu: neutered-for-incoming-savants 703 :fu:.