Some Training/Stat Questions

[UnconqueredSun]

As the end of my first 30 days is coming to a close, I'm considering moving my stats for growth (human warrior). I know that the argument of growth vs TPs is an old one with a number of solid arguments on both sides, and I'm a pretty casual player but I do plan to cap eventually. It seems pretty evenly split between people who want to make the "journey" to cap easier and those who want to have nigh perfect stats at cap. So my question is this: how easy to get are fix stat potions? If I spend my time leveling through bounties, is it a viable option?

Next are skills. I've been going sword and board and I'm enjoying it. If I switch to growth it's going to put a major squeeze in my training plan. Right now I'm focusing on tripling armor until plate, then doubling I think. Triple shield and trying (emphasis on trying) to triple PF. Doubling weapon and CMANs. Singling Ambush (until 30/40) and MOC. This doesn't leave me with a lot of extra points now so I'm curious if there is an alternate path that might be more effective. 2x shield 1x Dodge (I'm using a tower shield)?

I know it's a lot of what ifs, but I'd appreciate any help. I don't have access to my exact stats and skills at the moment but I can post them later if needed.

[Ososis]

In the year I have played, I have racked up 1.3M bounty points. first mil I bought a fixstat and sold it for 16M, now I am working on the second one for perfect stats when I get to cap (still some time on that one). If you knock out bounties and don't blow all your BP on enhancives, I don't spend any on enhancives frankly, I think it's a safe bet that you will have at least 2 fixstats by the time you reach cap iffn thats your goal.

[Archigeek]

What exactly do you mean when you say growth? I think you have three choices for state placement: lower level power, max physical TP's at cap, or perfect stats at cap. Personally I went with the middle one, and then used a fix stat after about 4m more xp.

Regarding your training plan, I would hold off on the ambush until you hit your plate armor goal at least, if you want to train in some other skills.

[UnconqueredSun]

What exactly do you mean when you say growth? I think you have three choices for state placement: lower level power, max physical TP's at cap, or perfect stats at cap.

Sorry should have been more clear. I was referring to perfect stats at cap. Is there a particular reason you decided to go max physical TPs at cap? Was 4m post cap the break even point?

I could definitely drop the Ambush until later, do you have any recommendations for useful tertiary skills?

[Gnomad]

Yeah, assuming you do bounties regularly, you should definitely be able to afford 1 by cap. But warriors don't hurt too much from starting at perfect stats. Aside from making training sacrifices, heavy races will see it in low-level RTs, light races in low-level AS/encumbrance/health/stamina.

I haven't played a sword/board warrior, but if I was TP-starved, I'd drop ambush to 0.5x or less unless you have a really nice crit-weighted weapon. I imagine most of the time you're ambushing for a kill, you've already knocked over a creature with a shield bash or something. Creatures on the ground are much easier to aim at. If you're able to reliably get a rank 9 crit on a standing creature, then ambush is a lot nicer. You'll be able to get up to 30+ ambush ranks pretty quickly when you're not 3xing Armor any more, and at the point you'd get 30 ambush ranks, you'll have your targeted mstrike as a finisher as well.

3x PF is great but not necessary, especially at lower levels.

For 1x dodge vs 3x shield, the answer isn't cut-and-dry.

If you already have 2x shield and are converting points, 1x dodge will cost you 10 MTP and 3x shield will cost you 16 MTP.
1x dodge will give you a 5% evade chance, 3x shield will bring you to from 10% to 15% block chance. These are mostly interchangeable, but if you have abilities that play off of block chance (Tortoise Stance, Shield Spike Mastery, Block the Elements, Spell Block, etc.) then the extra 5% is more helpful on block.

1 rank of shield use with tower shield gives 1/(1.5) * 0.5 * 1.3 = 0.433 DS in offensive stance, or about 0.027 DS per MTP.
1 rank of dodge with a tower shield depends on armor and the type of attack:

In brig: 1*0.94*0.54*0.75 ~ 0.387 DS against melee and *1.5 ~ 0.571 DS against ranged.
In full plate: 1*0.83*0.54*0.75 ~ 0.336 DS against melee and *1.5 ~ 0.504 DS against ranged.

(Both of those will go up a smidge if you're very overtrained in armor.)

For melee attacks in offensive, that's about 0.027 DS/MTP for shield, 0.038 DS/MTP for dodge in brig, and 0.034 DS/MTP for dodge in full plate. Dodge also helps even more against ranged. Dodge is also straight-up cheaper, so if you're not amortizing points, it leaves you 6 more MTPs for your other skills.

But you don't get SHIELD points or bonuses to passive shield abilities for dodge ranks. So it's a judgment call.

[Ososis]

I tended to only push stats that helped me RIGHT NOW. So when I hit a threshold for say armor use, or MOC, I would add points to other skills until I started getting in range of another level of MOC or Armor, then reverse tactic and push it into whatever was coming up. Example, half plat needs 120, full plate needs 140. Rough math at 7 trains between the two. No reason to waste those points in Armor to just sit there with virtually 0 benefit for 7 trains.

I agree to hold of on ambush, just smash stuff for the moment. that 30 ranks of ambush doesn't make a a huge difference until you get the CMAN up anyway (As I understand it) I pretty much dumped dodge. Most people will disagree, but the penalties I was taking with heavier armors and larger shields made them a pretty rough point:value ratio. Again, just my 2 cents, but I would say PF would probably have more positive gains, especially early on. What kind of weapon are you swinging? I may have something fun at 4x if your interested. No charge.

[UnconqueredSun]

Gnomad's post

Wow. Thank you for breaking that down for me. It does seem like on paper the dodge would be more efficient. Maybe I will start throwing some points that way and work towards singling it. Would I be better off dropping back to 2x PF and using those MTPs (converted) for dodge, do you think? That way I would get to keep my shield points and passives, at the loss of some stamina.

[UnconqueredSun]

What kind of weapon are you swinging? I may have something fun at 4x if your interested. No charge.

Just a basic vultite falchion. Nothing fancy. I like the visual image of a falcata (closest in game parallel I could find to a kopis).

Edit: fixed typo

[Jeril]

Because of shield maneuvers I highly suggest 3x shield use for anyone who uses a shield. You can hold off on ambush training until you get closer to 40.

Being a shield user I'd also say you don't need to rush for plate. I'd instead focus on pushing things like MoC that will help you hunt faster. After you hit 140 ranks for fullplate not much of a need to go further unless you want to pick up 5 ranks of armor support. If not keep it at 140 until much later.

I agree that you don't need 3x PF, keep it at 2x until you get everything else you want.

[UnconqueredSun]

So, here's my current training after some fiddling based on suggestions...

(at level 11), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 132 36
Shield Use.........................| 132 36
Combat Maneuvers...................| 108 26
Edged Weapons......................| 108 26
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 70 15
Physical Fitness...................| 108 26
Dodging............................| 58 12
Harness Power......................| 5 1
Perception.........................| 58 12
Training Points: 0 Phy 12 Mnt (178 Mnt converted to Phy)

(sorry for the format, I don't know how to make it a table or anything).

Does anyone see any glaring issues or anything I might want to consider adjusting?

Thanks!

Edit: Harness Power is for Sunfist, I'll be picking it up occasionally as I go.

[Gnomad]

Looks good to me. If you're in Sunfist I'd slack off on MOC for a few levels now to get some HP ranks, then play catch up down the line to hit 30 ranks in your mid to late 20s.

[Archigeek]

Sorry should have been more clear. I was referring to perfect stats at cap. Is there a particular reason you decided to go max physical TPs at cap? Was 4m post cap the break even point?

I could definitely drop the Ambush until later, do you have any recommendations for useful tertiary skills?

I initially went for maximum ptps at cap because it allowed me to maximize physical skills. I think you're about right, that at 4-5 million exp over cap it started to make sense to max stats instead. In terms of TP quantity, once you hit cap it's dead even mental/physical, so if you have more physical than mental at cap, that won't change after you reach cap. I switched mostly just because of diminishing returns on trainable skills. At a certain point, the stat value outweighs anything you might train in.

[Ososis]

So correct my thinking, but what is the point of getting that 4-5 mil post cap buffer? Are you not spending any points during that time so when it corrects it doesn't leave you lacking? The way I understand training points and stats you are going to take a TP hit when you correct to perfect stats. always. always. So (unless you are saving points to be lost) what gain do you have taking that hit at 5M post cap, instead of at cap? Or at 20M post cap?

not arguing against it, I just am not wrapping my brain around it at the moment.

[Jeril]

That is more or less it. You can still spend those points on skills but you'd do so with the knowledge that you'd be losing some of them. You also shouldn't need a buffer quite that big. I only lost 200 or so training points when I used a fixskills and I was almost as physically statted as one could possibly be.

I think some of the information people give about stats is also misleading. Having those higher physical stats gives you more tps and makes the game up to the level 40 to 50 range easier but it also makes those levels afterwards harder then if you placed stats for cap. And unless you are doing some build that is very dependent on having that bloat of tps there isn't much of a reason to desire them. You also want to be aware the role logic plays in advancing your character and not tank that.

[Ososis]

You also want to be aware the role logic plays in advancing your character and not tank that.


Humanity tanked logic decades ago.

[Archigeek]

Let me try to clarify. You are right that you lose TP'S when you convert to optimal stats at cap, but focus on what I said about diminishing returns, instead of on the buffer. Jeril is right on logic too. I also never understood why people tanked influence, as it has a direct effect on warcries. I never really expected to be 3x cap in exp either, so setting a goal for TP'S that allowed me to accomplish a somewhat more PTP heavy build made perfect sense when we reallocate for GS4. Also, that was after "reallocation will never happen" was the mantra for a long long time.