Force on Force

[Trinitis]

The following changes to Multi-Opponent Combat will be implemented this evening when it goes live for all players (not just those over 50th level):

1. Upon entering a room for the first time, a player will be granted a brief grace period during which all incoming attacks will disregard Multi-Attacker considerations. This grace period is very short and is intended to allow players to retreat quickly or perhaps get off one quick attack before being fully engaged.

2. The amount of Multi-Opponent Combat training required to fully offset another attacker has been adjusted to come at ranks 10, 25, 45, and every 25 ranks thereafter.

3. Every rank of MOC counts towards reducing the defensive reduction for multiple attackers, rather than increasing in steps at specific rank thresholds. For example, if a character has 5 ranks of MOC and 10 are required to fully offset the first additional attacker, this character will only lose half of the defensive reduction that would normally apply when facing two attackers.

4. The bonus defensive reduction to a defender's offensive stance EBP DS has been scaled back.

5. Rooted attackers will be considered at half effectiveness for purposes of determining the number of attackers, similar to prone attackers.

6. Creature attackers 10th level and under will be treated as weak attackers.

7. Creature attackers greater than 10th level but less than 20th level will gradually increase their effectiveness until they are treated as normally skilled attackers at 20th level.

I expect to release the FIXSKILLS freebie this evening as well.

Warden

[Trinitis]

After reading these over again, I think my only comment was that the reducing of ranks required to ignore extra attacks was a bad plan, IMO. I can't think of a good fix off the top of my head, but I don't think this was the right one.

[Stunseed]

I put it like this. If you plan on swinging a weapon, train in that weapon style. If you plan on hunting more than one creature, you need to train in MOC. It really doesn't get anymore easier, folks.

[Trinitis]

My reason for thinking the ranks needed fix is bad, is simply at high end, Squares can, if trained properly, completely ignore "normal swarms" of creatures.

OTF is known for its 5-6 creatures per room swarms.

At level 90, if a warrior is properly trained in MoC, he/she can easily ignore 7 creatures. Thats a bit TOO much, and basicly kills the whole idea behind Force on Force to begin with.

Granted, not many people are willing to 2x MoC, but the option is there. As I stated before, I cannot think of a better fix right now..I'll have to give it more thought.

[Fallen]

They should have adjusted the cost of COM for pures, possibly semi's as well. The physical cost is fine, though there is little reason to justify the high mental cost for the skill other than to ensure pures do not train heavily in it.

The best change was obviously this:

<<3. Every rank of MOC counts towards reducing the defensive reduction for multiple attackers, rather than increasing in steps at specific rank thresholds. For example, if a character has 5 ranks of MOC and 10 are required to fully offset the first additional attacker, this character will only lose half of the defensive reduction that would normally apply when facing two attackers.>>

This allows Pures who can only fit in a few ranks to receive a tangible benefit from the skill. In most situations, the first 25% of defense lost will be of the greatest concern. Only towards the end of a pure's career could I possibly see one fitting in 10 or more ranks of MOC, and even that is a stretch. It is far more easy to justify any MOC training at all if every bit counts.

[hectomaner]

here is how i read it


Originally posted by Adredrin
The following changes to Multi-Opponent Combat will be implemented this evening when it goes live for all players (not just those over 50th level):

1. blah blah blah

2. blah blah blah

3. blah blah blah

4. blah blah blah

5. blah blah blah

6. blah blah blah

7. blah blah blah


I expect to release the FIXSKILLS freebie this evening as well.


Warden

[Trinitis]

Heh, i'm actually looking forward to the fixskills as well :)

[Fallen]

Adredin, as far as the physical aspect goes, it does make sense that a highly trained square would be able to wade into dozens of opponents and not have to worry about their physical defenses.

However, many, including Warden it seems, believe pures have no such skills unless they sacrifice much in the way of their magical prowess to gain it.

Conversly, I do wonder if they will ever introduce a Multi-spell attack TD lowering. Where the more warding based spells are thrown at you, the farther your TD drops. Of course, pures would have the obvious advantage in this regard, just as squares do with MOC. Somehow...I doubt this will happen. heh.

[Trinitis]

Well, I admit to reading the officals the last few days on this subject, and someone brought up a point I liked.

All pures should perhaps have a spell or two altered to assist with this. I'm not sure which spells for pures, but Mirrors for bards comes to mind. If the creatures see 7 of you, at least a few of them are going to attack the wrong person. This should grant mock MOC ranks.

Maybe Shadows for Sorcerers? If we are cloaked in shadows, it would be much more difficult for them to tell which way we are looking, moving, casting, blocking, etc etc. Grant a bit of mock MOC.

I was thinking either blurs for wizards (but this would assist all other classes, and as such, should not be used), or perhaps Elemental Deflection? The spell creates a magical "shield". Maybe it could help defend FoF?

I'm not sure on clerics or empaths..I'd havta give it a bit more thought.


Then again, now that I think about it..for clerics and sorcerers (since empaths are leaving the circle soon) we could always rework WOF that it no longer grants DS, costs less mana (hopefully), and helps "rebuff" excess attackers to a point?

[Fallen]

Then again, now that I think about it..for clerics and sorcerers (since empaths are leaving the circle soon) we could always rework WOF that it no longer grants DS, costs less mana (hopefully), and helps "rebuff" excess attackers to a point? >>

If that were the case the duration would have to be looked at as well. They should simply add mock MOC ranks to the spell as is, considering the current cost and spell level.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Adredrin
My reason for thinking the ranks needed fix is bad, is simply at high end, Squares can, if trained properly, completely ignore "normal swarms" of creatures.If squares could hunt in swarms, you'd have a very good point. From what I hear, that's not the case.

[Chadj]

from what I hear, they can.

Just what I hear though.

[Mistomeer]

What I dislike about the Force on Force system is that one of the goals of GSIV seemed to be a system where pures didn't have to train in weapon skills they didn't need, and this system just goes straight back to that. For a square, it doesn't matter all that much, as MOC is a fairly useful skill anyway, unless you use ranged exclusively. For a pure, the high cost of MOC doesn't really help you with anything other than force on force and a couple of bolt spells whose mana cost is stupid anyway.

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Adredrin
My reason for thinking the ranks needed fix is bad, is simply at high end, Squares can, if trained properly, completely ignore "normal swarms" of creatures.If squares could hunt in swarms, you'd have a very good point. From what I hear, that's not the case.

As I've said before, my square has 0 problems hunting in a swarm. I've seen many squares have 0 problems hunting in swarms.

The difference is, the squares that train right, are not afraid to take a couple hits, or even a death or two in the sake of hunting, don't bitch. The people who whine about dieing once because they were swarmed, are the ones you hear from.

[Amaron]

I dislike being forced into a mold again.

A main point of GSIV was diversity. Encouraging us to all be different and take different training paths that would all be viable.

But now again we are all forced to train in a skill that is useless otherwise for many professions,to hunt alone if we choose and survive a room of critters.

Skipping this skill is really not an option unless you plan on always hunting in a group and running from any swarm.


Archers and stave users do not use this skill otherwise and i know my characters do not have the extra tp's to train in it without sacrificing more skills I enjoy.


I like the suggestion about a spell for each that will help offset it.


I would also like to see ranger companions and singing swords count as a person.

J

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Amaron
I dislike being forced into a mold again.

A main point of GSIV was diversity. Encouraging us to all be different and take different training paths that would all be viable.

But now again we are all forced to train in a skill that is useless otherwise for many professions,to hunt alone if we choose and survive a room of critters.

Skipping this skill is really not an option unless you plan on always hunting in a group and running from any swarm.


Archers and stave users do not use this skill otherwise and i know my characters do not have the extra tp's to train in it without sacrificing more skills I enjoy.


I like the suggestion about a spell for each that will help offset it.


I would also like to see ranger companions and singing swords count as a person.

J

Honestly speaking, with the current MOC thats in the game, Adredrin has 0 problems hunting. He rarely sees more then 2 creatures in a room in skull temple. Point taken, two supplicants can kill Adredrin if they time their swings right, but I don't allow that to happen. Macros are my friend!


But, this is not the case with some hunting areas (OTF), and I'm trying to think of ways to help with this, while not allowing other classes (squares, mostly [warriors, namely]) get beyond powerful with the skill.

With the changes rolling in tonight, it will give a bit of relief to pures, and at this I applaud Warden and his team for listening to us and doing these fixes. On the other hand, I also think we jumped the gun on the fixes, and opened a door to allow squares to take advantage of this at higher levels.

With easy gotten spells, the right training, and a smart hunter, they can ignore 7 critters with no problem, as well as take hits (if the critters can cut through the spelled up DS) and still have redux to fall back on.

I'm not so sure I agree with it..but Hey, I'm all about fixing something for pures, and letting squares keep the advantages they are getting.

Dropping the ranks even more (thus allowing even more critters to be ignored by squares) I would be against, though.

[Sean]

Aren't you sorta drastically underhunting in the skull temple?

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Tijay
Aren't you sorta drastically underhunting in the skull temple?

Nope.

The lowest level via Tsorans maps is 66. Adredrin just turned 69. I still fry in a matter of a 2 or 3 min there. :)

Edit to add : I'm guessing you thought that cause you saw me in rift. I was drasticly overhunting there ;)

[Edited on 12-7-2004 by Adredrin]

[Sean]

No I just thought you were a lot older based on past encounters.

[Trinitis]

Well yes, in GS3, Adredrin was almost 90 trainings.

But I lost a large chunk in the GS4 convert :(

[Marl]

Pures don't have to train in MOC to get by. We have the power to knock the swarm down and then kill the whole room at once(cone,mswarm,implode,maelstorm etc). I think if anything it makes squares have to stance dance more than they used to. But, what do I know?

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Marluxian
Pures don't have to train in MOC to get by. We have the power to knock the swarm down and then kill the whole room at once(cone,mswarm,implode,maelstorm etc). I think if anything it makes squares have to stance dance more than they used to. But, what do I know?

Out of all those spells you listed to kill multiple critters at once..how many are player safe? How many people are we going to kill (and get killed by for killing them) daily?

Cone is Player friendly, for the most part.

Open Implode, Meteor Swarm, Open Maelstrom, Major Ewave, etc are all not player friendly.

Now I know some people argue that they should stay that way. The whole "don't Disney-fi the game. But the only pures I can think of with a mass hit spell thats player friendly are Wizards and Clerics.

By all means, remind me of something I'm missing.

[Marl]

You are missing nothing and when all the characters start dropping from maelstorm and open voids one of the two will be nerfed like cone was. Then this system will work for most all pures. Just saying we pures have the advantage to this system over squares. Knock em down and kill em all! (if a fellow adventurer walks in tell them to RUN!!!

[Trinitis]

...Right.

I'm sorry if I have a lingering respect for other hunters. I must be a failure as a Sorcerer :(

[Marl]

No, if I played a sorcerer I would either A. hunt in a group(no)
B. find an area/room no one else normally hunts(wont be many left now) C. hunt in an area were swarms are not likely.(will be full as well) Other words yes until they make a player friendly multi attack, Sorcerers are on the losing end of this change.

[Sean]

Originally posted by Marluxian
Pures don't have to train in MOC to get by. We have the power to knock the swarm down and then kill the whole room at once(cone,mswarm,implode,maelstorm etc). I think if anything it makes squares have to stance dance more than they used to. But, what do I know?

Not to rehash the old thread... but whats the clerical approach again? or empath for that matter.

[Edited on 12-8-2004 by Tijay]

[Trinitis]

I know clerics have a spell that hits multiple targets..as to what its called or how well it works, I've no clue..I don't play a cleric :)

Empaths? They are up poop creek without a wooden rowin thing.

[Sean]

Divine wrath isn't really a knock down spell, its also alignment based and has a timer on it.

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Tijay
Divine wrath isn't really a knock down spell, its also alignment based and has a timer on it.

I was not refering to a knock down only spell, just a mass damage spell.

I know Divine wrath is frowned on by a lot of clerics, but it does fit the bill as a "mass damage" spell. :)

[Sean]

Originally posted by Adredrin

Originally posted by Tijay
Divine wrath isn't really a knock down spell, its also alignment based and has a timer on it.

I was not refering to a knock down only spell, just a mass damage spell.

I know Divine wrath is frowned on by a lot of clerics, but it does fit the bill as a "mass damage" spell. :)

That still only covers half of the post I intially replied to.

[Trinitis]

Yep, I know. I mentioned that to Khaladon when I was talking about Force on Force with him. His responce was fairly simple. 410 imbeds are pretty easy to get ahold of.

[Fallen]

As for squares being invincible in swarms at later levels, I think most squares 80 and up would laugh at that. I doubt there are very many areas at all where a swarm could form without magic users in it. Physical attacks are fine, but one good CS based spell and its lights out.

So they dont have to worry about AS attacks. Thats fine, thats how it should be. Pures dont have to worry about CS spells.

[Snowman]

So they dont have to worry about AS attacks. Thats fine, thats how it should be. Pures dont have to worry about CS spells.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uhhhh....... Might wanna talk to a few older mages about that.

~Snowman

[Sean]

Originally posted by Fallen
So they dont have to worry about AS attacks. Thats fine, thats how it should be. Pures dont have to worry about CS spells.

Depends on what level of the game your talking about. This is really only half true in gs4. In gs3 yes I never worried about CS attakcs but since my spells are only 1/2 value against elemental attacks I do have to worry as a spiritual caster about elemental CS attacks.

[Fallen]

Depends on what level of the game your talking about. This is really only half true in gs4. In gs3 yes I never worried about CS attakcs but since my spells are only 1/2 value against elemental attacks I do have to worry as a spiritual caster about elemental CS attacks. >>

True, as does Evarin worry about Spiritual spells. You cant be TOTALLY beyond reach, but you have a good certainty of avoiding the attacks.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Adredrin
(squares, mostly [warriors, namely])I'm agreeing to disagree about the swarm-hunting-ability of squares for now, but I just thought I'd point out bards have an easier time training MOC than rogues, and paladins have a much easier time. So try to hook up the rogues while you're at it. ;)

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Fallen

Pures dont have to worry about CS spells.

Speak for yourself. My TD against spirit stuff sucks it hard.

[Fallen]

Speak for yourself. My TD against spirit stuff sucks it hard. >>

Isnt Anticor a mutant?

[Snapp]

He's a wizard. They all stink against spiritual CS. It's only sorcerors who don't have to worry about CS-based spells. ;)

[Fallen]

He's a wizard. They all stink against spiritual CS. It's only sorcerors who don't have to worry about CS-based spells.>>

Warden's sure-fire answer for his FoF policy could be applied to this situation. As long as his training plan doesnt dig into his Arc Sym and MIU training, there are tons of Spirit TD boosting spells.