Nailing down TWC Roundtime details: check my work?

[Gnomad]

I realized that the wiki page for TWC Roundtime (https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Two_Weapon_Combat#Roundtime) is a little lacking, so I'd like to fix things up a bit. I'm not a TWC expert - I don't even play a TWC character any more - but I think I've got most of it taken care of. There's three main issues I see: the Base RT calculation doesn't have the heavy weapon penalty in it, and the strength bonuses to offset the heavy weapon penalty isn't enumerated, and there's no discussion of minimum RT.

All of the following is assuming you put your bigger weapon in your right hand.

TWC Base RT = Right Base RT + min(Left Base RT - 2, 0) + Heavy Weapon Penalty

Heavy Weapon Penalty = Left hand weapon weight - (2 + STR Offset); min 0, max 3.

STR Offset = 1 at 5 STR bonus, 2 at 20, 3 at 35. Possibly 4/5/6 at str bonuses of 50/65/80?

TWC Min RT = Same as normal for a weapon with the corresponding Base RT calculated above. (3 for a Base RT of 1, 4 for 2-3, and 5 otherwise..)

AGIDEX, ambush, etc. is all handled normally from there.

This jives with what I'm seeing. My -4 RT, 2 str offset (55 agidex, 23 str) buddy gets 5 swing and 7 ambush RT with two 3 lb handaxes (8 Base RT), 3/4 rt with 2 daggers, and 5/6 with a handaxe and a dagger.

I've never seen any great resources on the str offset. Some stuff disagreed, but these three threads seemed to help:
Gives the 5, 20, 35 numbers (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?86472-TWC-ambush-roundtime)
Confirms <=21 for 2 str offset (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?63754-Two-Weapon-Combat)
Thinks str offset is 8/23/38, contradicted by links above (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?16822-TWC-RoundTime)

Before I update the wiki to reflect this, anyone have any contradicting evidence?

[Whirlin]

I have a TWC ranger that I'll test with this evening to see if I can find anything contrary... however, since he's still relatively level retarded, very limited data points available.

[Gnomad]

Cool. If nobody has a giant or dwarf laying around that can easily test this (100 Str + surge; rank 2 for a giant or 5 for a dwarf), I'll throw together a F2P. If you do have one, just grab a falchion and two handaxes from the weapon shop. (Fal should be 5 lbs, handaxe should be 6; you can INSPECT (order #) to confirm before purchasing.) Keep the handaxe in the right hand, fal in the left, and open ambush something. (Or do it from hiding if you really want; I'm not your dad.) Record that RT; it's probably 8 or 9. Swap the falchion for a second handaxe and your RT should increase by 1. Surge, and see if it goes back to the previous number.

[Haldrik]

Looks good. Might want to consider discussing MStrike RT as that has some pretty interesting interactions that TWC RT has limits on.

[Nephelem]

Your handaxe/falchion numbers come out exactly as you predicted. Just tested on a 100 str/ 2 ranks surge dwarf warrior.

[zennsunni]

Hm I recently did some TWC testing on the test server with my bard, and with 23 STR, sonic short sword and pure black ora short sword which is max light I thin at 2 lbs, and I couldn't swing them in 4 seconds. Anyone care to comment on this? If you can't swing two short words in 4, why can you swing 2 handaxes in 5? Am I missing something? AGIDEX is huge, def not that.

[Gnomad]

Hm I recently did some TWC testing on the test server with my bard, and with 23 STR, sonic short sword and pure black ora short sword which is max light I thin at 2 lbs, and I couldn't swing them in 4 seconds. Anyone care to comment on this? If you can't swing two short words in 4, why can you swing 2 handaxes in 5? Am I missing something? AGIDEX is huge, def not that.Did you actually read and use the formula in my post to come up with 2 shortswords = 4 min RT? If so, then explain how you came to that number so that I can work on clarifying things before putting it on the wiki. If you're just complaining that it should be doable in 4 seconds, that's cool.

Kalros, I'm not gonna touch mstrike til I have more time. That formula is a pain.

[Gnomad]

Your handaxe/falchion numbers come out exactly as you predicted. Just tested on a 100 str/ 2 ranks surge dwarf warrior.

Bah. That's actually not what I expected. I thought a dwarf would need rank 5 surge for the reduction (for a total bonus of 35 + 16 =51), and a giant would need rank 2 (40 + 10 = 50).

As I'm typing I realize that surge is also going to offset the weight of the coins I that are upping your RT. I'll update the instructions in a few.

[Haldrik]

Hm I recently did some TWC testing on the test server with my bard, and with 23 STR, sonic short sword and pure black ora short sword which is max light I thin at 2 lbs, and I couldn't swing them in 4 seconds. Anyone care to comment on this? If you can't swing two short words in 4, why can you swing 2 handaxes in 5? Am I missing something? AGIDEX is huge, def not that.

The reason why you think this is because its not the clearest how min RT is established. Double Shortshord BASE RT = 3 + 3 (-2) = 4. You then need to look up what BASE RT 4 weapons are to determine MIN RT.

BASE RT 4 = 5 MIN RT. (longsword, estoc, scimitar)

So yes, there is absolutely no advantage using shortsword + shortsword over falchion + falchion if you have enough AGI/DEX to reach min RT.

The advantage comes from lower AGI/DEX needed, and the mstrike formula which I'm not going to get into right now. (Plus other outliers, like maybe qstrike.)

[droit]

If you need a giant to test something, let me know. With 606 and 509, I've got a 75 STR bonus. Could get max it at 85 with someone's enhancives.

[Rhovan]

The advantage of AGI/DEX is also keeping your roundtime at a minimum once you are loaded down, but not ready to finish a hunt.

[Gnomad]

I mean, the question is the same thing as "If you can't swing a scimitar in 4, why can you swing a lance in 5?"


The advantage comes from lower AGI/DEX needed, and the mstrike formula which I'm not going to get into right now. (Plus other outliers, like maybe qstrike.)
And ambushing. 2x shortsword = longsword = anyone can easily ambush in the minimum 6 seconds. 2x handaxe = greataxe = only halfling/gnome/elf can ambush in 6 seconds without enhansives

[zennsunni]

Did you actually read and use the formula in my post to come up with 2 shortswords = 4 min RT? If so, then explain how you came to that number so that I can work on clarifying things before putting it on the wiki. If you're just complaining that it should be doable in 4 seconds, that's cool.

Kalros, I'm not gonna touch mstrike til I have more time. That formula is a pain.

Yes I actually read and used the formula - is it really necessary to respond in such a snide and insulting tone?

Your formula is correct, but the way you stated how minimum RT works in conjunction with base RT is a little poorly phrased. For the purposes of a GS wiki post I would maybe add a statement that clearly asserts: "There is both a base and minimum TWC roundtime to calculate, etc. etc." The current wiki article makes no mention of a minimum RT and this was the source of my confusion as to why my numbers didn't line up with your formula (I was moving quickly and didn't realize that your formula does indeed explain the problem, namely the min RT).

In any case thank you for working to update the wiki page, in it's current state it has some gaps that can lead to head-scratching.

[Gnomad]

Yes I actually read and used the formula - is it really necessary to respond in such a snide and insulting tone?

Your formula is correct, but the way you stated how minimum RT works in conjunction with base RT is a little poorly phrased. For the purposes of a GS wiki post I would maybe add a statement that clearly asserts: "There is both a base and minimum TWC roundtime to calculate, etc. etc." The current wiki article makes no mention of a minimum RT and this was the source of my confusion as to why my numbers didn't line up with your formula (I was moving quickly and didn't realize that your formula does indeed explain the problem, namely the min RT).

In any case thank you for working to update the wiki page, in it's current state it has some gaps that can lead to head-scratching.Sorry, I wrote my response quickly while waiting in line at Starbucks and wasn't paying much attention to word choice. I didn't intend to come across as snide, but definitely see how I did.

I wrote the post with the assumption that TWC Roundtime was Roundtime 102, and that most people looking into it already knew the ins and outs of single-weapon RT, especially the weirdness when Min RT > Base RT. That's obviously not the case, so I'll probably move the TWC roundtime calculations from the TWC article to the Weapon Speed article I've been working on that goes into depth on Base vs Min RT.

[Gnomad]

If you need a giant to test something, let me know. With 606 and 509, I've got a 75 STR bonus. Could get max it at 85 with someone's enhancives.

Should be enough just to try what I said in this post (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?102455-Nailing-down-TWC-Roundtime-details-check-my-work&p=1856959#post1856959) without any spells or enhansives running.

Also, if you can use a 3 lb weapon with no penalty at +5 STR bonus and an extra pound every additional +15, I wonder if someone with a -11 STR bonus can use a 2 lber with no penalty.

[zennsunni]

If you want to write a full weapon speed article that would probably be pretty cool, mainly for new players that don't realize there are scenarios in which the faster weapon bases can be really good.

[Whirlin]

Right hand: Broadsword, Left Hand: Falchion: RT: 6 seconds
Right Hand: Falchion, Left hand Broadsword: RT: 7 seconds

Falchion weight: ~3 Pounds
Broadsword Weight: ~4 pounds

STR: +19
DEXAGL: +24

[lordsmo]

Heavy Weapon Penalty = Left hand weapon weight - (2 + STR Offset); min 0, max 3.

This part implies the Heavy Weapon Penalty increases by one for every pound above (2 + STR offset), which I don't believe is true.

For example, this thread you linked to:


Confirms <=21 for 2 str offset (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?63754-Two-Weapon-Combat)

Has these results posted:


(93 strength (21 bonus))

(-3 RT from stats)

7lb falchion + 5lb falchion = 6 RT

7lb falchion + 4lb falchion = 5 RT

7lb falchion + 3lb falchion = 5 RT

5lb falchion + 7lb falchion = 6 RT

For this person, 3lb and 4lb left-hand have no penalty, but 5lbs and 7lbs (and by extension 6lbs) left-hand all have the same penalty: 1s. I'm not sure how much heavier you have to get to get the heavy weapon penalty higher than 1.

[Gnomad]

For this person, 3lb and 4lb left-hand have no penalty, but 5lbs and 7lbs (and by extension 6lbs) left-hand all have the same penalty: 1s. I'm not sure how much heavier you have to get to get the heavy weapon penalty higher than 1.But in those cases, the right-hand weapon is lighter, which the GM posts imply changes things as well.

Frankly, I just don't have enough data. Blunts are heavier (mace/morning star have base weights of 8) so maybe someday I'll mess around with them.

[lordsmo]

I only pasted a portion of the data set from that thread. Looking at the whole set seems to conclusively demonstrate that the left hand being heavier or lighter than the right hand is meaningless; the only thing that matters is STR bonus and left hand weapon weight.