Deer Hunting in Wisconsin....

[Alfster]

Well, the hunt started as normal...Saturday I got my deer, and then proceeded to drink to just before the point of vomiting.

Sunday, I shot another one in the morning, and me and my dad were trailing it. We heard shot after shot, and we were joking about how someone must be seeing a lot of deer, as we hadn't seen many.

Well, an hour later we heard police sirens, and helicopters flying back and forth. Which, in this part of the state, is strange because the nearest hospital was at least an hour's drive away and there's about 3 cops in the whole county....and all 3 of them were probably out hunting.

So, it turns out about a mile from where we were hunting, a man shot 8 people...here's the story from our local newspaper.

Front Page
11/23/2004 12:48:40 PM
Sixth shooting victim is dead
Suspect may get hearing
Chris Vetter
Chippewa Falls News Bureau

HAYWARD — Bond is expected to be set today for the suspect in a shooting rampage Sunday north of Rice Lake.

Prosecutors this morning said they did not expect Chai Soua Vang to appear in Sawyer County Court, but did say a bond hearing was needed today.

Authorities say Vang killed six people and injured two others after being told to leave private hunting land in the Birchwood area.

State Assistant Attorney General Don Latorraca, who will serve as special prosecutor in the case, said this morning a hearing needs to be held within 48 hours of arresting Vang. He was uncertain when charges or a criminal complaint would be filed.

“We will handle the case based on the information that becomes available,” Latorraca said.

Sawyer County Sheriff James Meier struggled to answer questions Monday about the motives behind the shootings.

“I just don’t think any of this makes sense,” Meier said at a press conference Monday afternoon in Hayward. “It’s unbelievable it can happen in such a small county.”

One of the shooting victims, Dennis Drew of Rice Lake, died Monday evening. He had been shot in the abdomen and had undergone several hours of surgery in an attempt to save his life,

Lakeview Medical Center surgeon Lynn Koob said at Monday morning press conference.

The other five people who died in the shooting also were from the Rice Lake area. Robert Crotteau, 42, and his son, Joey Crotteau, 20, Al Laski, 43, Mark Roidt, 28, and Jessica Willers, 27, all died Sunday.

Vang, 36, is from St. Paul.

Gov. Jim Doyle said at a press conference he offered prayers and sympathy to the families of the deceased and wounded.

“This is an incredible tragedy, one in such a great family tradition (like hunting) has turned into a great loss,” Doyle said. “The whole state of Wisconsin feels sympathy and pain. Let me express my deepest condolences to the families that have lost loved ones.”

Doyle agreed with Meier that the act was senseless and whatever was said or might have been said between the two hunting parties was irrelevant.

“Little disputes happen all the time,” Doyle said. “Nobody ever could have expected this. Nothing justifies what the response was here.”

Meier detailed the events of the shootings, as he understood them.

“The crime scene is very large,” Meier said. “Recovery of evidence is somewhat hindered by the size of the crime scene.”

The incident apparently began around noon Saturday in Sawyer County, between Birchwood and Exeland. Terry Willers, one of the 14 or 15 people in the hunting party, noticed someone was in a tree stand on the property owned by Bob Crotteau.

Willers radioed to the group back in a cabin, asking if anyone should be there. When he was told no one should be in the tree stand, Willers approached Vang and asked him to leave because Vang was on private property.

Vang climbed down from the tree stand, and it appeared he was leaving, Meier said.

“The subject (Vang) was walking away,” Meier said, adding Vang had gone about 40 yards before “fiddling” with his gun, apparently removing the scope.

“For some reason, he turned and fired into the group,” Meier said.

Willers saw Vang’s “back tag” number and scratched it in dirt on the ATV. This number later was used to confirm Vang’s identity.

Meier said three or four people were present when Vang opened fire initially. One of those four victims called for help, saying they had been shot.

More people from the cabin came, but they did not bring guns, Meier said.

Two of the victims — Jessica Willers and Joey Crotteau — were shot as they approached the scene on a four-wheeler, Meier said.

Vang then moved around on the ground over an area of 100 yards, firing at the group. Meier said some shots were fired back at Vang, but most of the victims were unarmed.

“He would have to have been moving around to inflict that amount of damage,” Meier said.

Some of the deceased suffered multiple gunshot wounds, he said.

Terry Willers, 47, remains in stable condition at St. Joseph’s Hospital in Marshfield, while Lauren Hesebeck, 48, was released from Lakeview Monday night.

Vang was firing a SKS 7.62 caliber semiautomatic, an assault rife, Meier said. It is not unusual to see a hunter using this type of gun; two people in Meier’s own hunting parties have used the weapon in the last decade.

The gun can hold 20 shots. The magazine and chamber of the gun were empty when Vang was apprehended.

Two hunters found Vang, lost in the woods, and helped get him out at 5 p.m. Sunday. They were not aware Vang may have been involved in the shootings. A Department of Natural Resources warden who noticed Vang’s tag matched the one etched on the ATV apprehended Vang.

Vang has military experience. He was born in Laos, but is an American citizen. He speaks fluent English, Meier said.

Vang would not confirm or deny his role in the shooting, Meier said. Vang was calm and has cooperated with investigators, Meier said.

“I find it frightening,” Meier said of Vang’s calm demeanor.

It is unclear how Vang arrived at the location. He may have been with another hunting party, Meier said. However, Meier did not have any knowledge of who may have been with Vang. Vang was dressed in an orange hunting vest.

Rusk County Chief Deputy Gary Hahn today said he and other officers contacted Hmong hunters Sunday and Monday at an area about five miles from the scene of the shootings.

“We have reason to believe Mr. Vang may have been with a hunting party camping somewhere in that area,” Hahn said, indicating several Hmong hunting parties were in an area along a Rusk County Forest logging road just south of Exeland.

Hahn said the Hmong hunters interviewed were cooperative.

“None of the hunters I spoke with knew Mr. Vang,” Hahn said.

[DeV]

I can't believe something like that happened, especially up in the Northwoods. My friends and I have been camping around that area and this has got to be a huge shock to everyone in that community. Hell, the entire Northwoods area for that matter.

[Parkbandit]

Wow. How mad do you have to get to do something like that?

Hope I never find out. Glad you are ok Alfster. I'll be going turkey/boar hunting this weekend... hopefully I'll bag a big ol Tom.

[Shari]

Fucking crazy Wisconsonites...


In all seriousness, I cannot believe something like that could happen. We already discussed this in IM's but I'm glad everyone who you were hunting with is okay.

That guy needs the death penalty ASAP.

[Czeska]

This has been all over the news here, and I also call on Wisconsin for my sales job. A lot of my customers have been hunting in Sawyer county, and it's good to hear they made it out safe.

To quote one of my customers "That's some crazy shit."

[Iriscience]

The father and brother of a kid in my history class at UW- Eau Claire were killed in this shooting. It's fucked up but I'm not sure thats not the whole story. No sane person just opens fire.


When he was told no one should be in the tree stand, Willers approached Vang and asked him to leave because Vang was on private property.

Backwoods northern Wisconsin hunters are not known for their politeness or their racial tolerance. Im sure it went something like "Hey slant-eye get the fuck outta my tree stand before I shoot the fuck outta you". Also there's no doubt they had all been drinking for several hours when this happened.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Iriscience
Backwoods northern Wisconsin hunters are not known for their politeness or their racial tolerance. Im sure it went something like "Hey slant-eye get the fuck outta my tree stand before I shoot the fuck outta you". Also there's no doubt they had all been drinking for several hours when this happened. I can see your point and I'm sure there's much more to the story but all I'm thinking at this point is that he was able to kill 6 people and shoot a couple others and still get out without a scratch. Crazy shit.

[Alfster]

Originally posted by Iriscience
The father and brother of a kid in my history class at UW- Eau Claire were killed in this shooting. It's fucked up but I'm not sure thats not the whole story. No sane person just opens fire.


When he was told no one should be in the tree stand, Willers approached Vang and asked him to leave because Vang was on private property.

Backwoods northern Wisconsin hunters are not known for their politeness or their racial tolerance. Im sure it went something like "Hey slant-eye get the fuck outta my tree stand before I shoot the fuck outta you". Also there's no doubt they had all been drinking for several hours when this happened.

You are right, no sane person would open fire like that.

Although, I disagree with you on the end there. Have you ever actually hunted up north? I've hunted up there for 12 years and for you to say, "Backwoods northern Wisconsin hunters are not known for their politeness or their racial tolerance" leads me to think that you have never hunted up there. Everyone that I've come in contact with has been nothing but nice. I've been lost and had random hunters give me a ride back to where I needed to be. I've also given lost hunters rides home. Even if the man had said something about the shooters race, that still wouldn't be a reason to open fire on the group. Nor would it give him a reason to open fire on people that were coming to help this man.

As far as the racial comments go, I'm willing to bet that what the man said was more like, "Hey you asshole, get the fuck out of my tree stand"...as this was private property. There's also a little thing that's called hunting etiqueete. If you're walking around and you find someone else's tree stand, you don't sit down there...you move the fuck on.

Drinking, well, hell I'd be willing to bet that was the reason some were still in the cabin and came out later.

[Alfster]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Wow. How mad do you have to get to do something like that?

Hope I never find out. Glad you are ok Alfster. I'll be going turkey/boar hunting this weekend... hopefully I'll bag a big ol Tom.

Damn, I just realized I've never been turkey hunting, good luck!

[Meos]

I wouldn't think it would be very smart to open fire on a bunch of other people with guns... They shoulda fuckin dropped that piece of shit.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Meos
I wouldn't think it would be very smart to open fire on a bunch of other people with guns... They shoulda fuckin dropped that piece of shit.

That's the part that confuses me. Unless he was deer hunting with an uzi, how in the hell did he shoot that many people before they shot back?!?

Jorddyn, pacifist unless someone is shooting at me :)

[Keller]

This is when the NRA shows up in WI to have a pro-assault rifle rally. It seems nearly appropriate, right?

In other news: This is why I bow hunt. No one would have heard the 8 rapid shots if they guy had used a bow.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Alfster

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Wow. How mad do you have to get to do something like that?

Hope I never find out. Glad you are ok Alfster. I'll be going turkey/boar hunting this weekend... hopefully I'll bag a big ol Tom.

Damn, I just realized I've never been turkey hunting, good luck!

It's tough hunting to be sure. Great eyesight. Whoever came up with the term "Bird brain" has never met a turkey.

I WILL bag one this weekend though.. dammit.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Whoever came up with the term "Bird brain" has never met a turkey.

I WILL bag one this weekend though.. dammit.

For some reason, the above quote disturbs me.

[Diamondback]

Originally posted by Meos
I wouldn't think it would be very smart to open fire on a bunch of other people with guns... They shoulda fuckin dropped that piece of shit.

The report I read said the group that was fired upon only had one firearm among them.

[Skeeter]

We haven't heard this guy's side of the story yet.

Perhaps someone threw a cup of beer at him.

[Dhuul]

his side: They called him racial epithets and shot at him first.

I'd imagine they did something to provoke him, but unless all 6 of them were shooting at him he had no reason to take them all out.

[Skeeter]

Perhaps the sarcasm and "Ron Artest" defense I was referring to was lost on you.

Tone is so hard to convey. :oops:

[Betheny]

Dahmer was a Wisconsinite.

You think it's coincidence? Ever *been* to Wisconsin?

[Scott]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Wow. How mad do you have to get to do something like that?

Hope I never find out. Glad you are ok Alfster. I'll be going turkey/boar hunting this weekend... hopefully I'll bag a big ol Tom.

People are nuts. I keep my comments to myself when hunting, even when some asshole scared away some turkeys I had been calling for awhile. I don't care how pissed off I get, I'll just mumble to myself because I'm not taking the chance of pissing some guy off who has a gun on him.....

I've only opened my mouth one time while hunting (even though so many others deserved it) and that was when some idiot wasn't looking and stung the shit out of me when he shot me while hunting pheasant.

I've since bought a cabin up in northern Pennsylvania. It's an associatation of about 50 or so other cabins, which about 20 or so people actually hunt with plenty of area to hunt on. Private land = safer. This way I know everyone personally, and I'm able to know if there is a moron in the group that I avoid.....

"Oh John wants the East side? No problem, I'll take the FAR FAR west."

[TheRoseLady]

Okay I have a few questions. I have never hunted, nor will I ever. I have seen more than enough deer hunters here in Ohio and gun season is likely happening right now or getting ready to start.

How do you call a turkey? And if you 'bag' one, do you take it somewhere and have it fixed up like you do deer?

Someone in another thread mentioned someone elk hunting and saying they got a 900 lb elk...how in the hell would you ever transport that amount of dead weight?

[peam]

Originally posted by TheRoseLady
How do you call a turkey? And if you 'bag' one, do you take it somewhere and have it fixed up like you do deer?


There's a number of calls. The most common ones are little boxes with a swinging top on top. You chalk the inside, and move the top, while dragging it across the box, and it produces a sound similar to a turkey. It's much more complicated than that, but it gives a general idea.

I'm sure PB can offer a better explanation. My dad owns some property that has been populated by all sorts of game (squirrel, turkey, deer, grouse, and even the occasional bear, bobcat or coyote) for years, so I don't really work on calling too much because the birds are just kind of there.

Turkeys are just like any other game animal, as far as dressing. If you bag a really nice one, I guess you could take it to a taxidermy shop. I usually just dress them, skin them, and throw them in the 'fridge.

[Shari]

Pretty much what Peam said. But turkeys are FAST little fuckers. And the ones we have out here don't look like the fancy ones with the wide sweeping fantails across their backside either. They're kinda scrawning, and black. I've never had wild turkey because nobody I know has gotten one as they are very smart, and very, very fast.

I've never met anyone that displays stuffed turkeys (though I know you could) some restraunts I've been too will have them as decorations with hoards of other stuffed animals.

That was me talking about the 900lb elk. I think he may have been exaggerating beacause when I drove up to see it it was a bit smaller than an average horse. It is probably more like 500lbs. But anyway, they made a pulley system from the trees using chain and the winch on the front of my boyfriend's truck and secured a rope around it's antlers and pull it up that way, depositing it in the back of a pickup truck.

They're rednecks, but they're creative rednecks. :D

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Jesae
I've never had wild turkey because nobody I know has gotten one as they are very smart, and very, very fast.


Heh, please point out that the WILD turkeys are smart. Tame/farm turkeys are dumb as FUCK. My mother has told me many stories about being a kid on their farm. Two of them being how turkey will drown in the rain..because they look up (which causes their beak to open) trying to find out where the water is comming from..but they refuse to swollow.

Also, turkeys that manage to get themselves on the roof of the barn, will freak out after a short while (can't find the way down) and will run off the edge, landing head/neck first, killing themselves.

[Edited on 11-24-2004 by LordAdredrin]

[Shari]

:lol2:

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Alfster
You are right, no sane person would open fire like that.

Although, I disagree with you on the end there. Have you ever actually hunted up north? I've hunted up there for 12 years and for you to say, "Backwoods northern Wisconsin hunters are not known for their politeness or their racial tolerance" leads me to think that you have never hunted up there. Everyone that I've come in contact with has been nothing but nice. I've been lost and had random hunters give me a ride back to where I needed to be. I've also given lost hunters rides home. Even if the man had said something about the shooters race, that still wouldn't be a reason to open fire on the group. Nor would it give him a reason to open fire on people that were coming to help this man.

As far as the racial comments go, I'm willing to bet that what the man said was more like, "Hey you asshole, get the fuck out of my tree stand"...as this was private property. There's also a little thing that's called hunting etiqueete. If you're walking around and you find someone else's tree stand, you don't sit down there...you move the fuck on.

Drinking, well, hell I'd be willing to bet that was the reason some were still in the cabin and came out later.

And I'll have to disagree with you. I've done my fair share of hunting and there's nothing like the pleasantness of someone pissed of that you are on private land, even on accident.

And don't give me the line of racially tolerant small town folk because that's a load of horse shit.

I grew up in small town America and it isn't racially tolerant nor is it in a hurry to hide that fact.

There's more to the story than what either side is telling, but I'm leaning toward the racial slants and threats myself.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
There's more to the story than what either side is telling, but I'm leaning toward the racial slants and threats myself.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6551094/

I'd say you're right.

Jorddyn

[Delirium]

And I'll have to disagree with you. I've done my fair share of hunting and there's nothing like the pleasantness of someone pissed of that you are on private land, even on accident.

And don't give me the line of racially tolerant small town folk because that's a load of horse shit.

I grew up in small town America and it isn't racially tolerant nor is it in a hurry to hide that fact.

There's more to the story than what either side is telling, but I'm leaning toward the racial slants and threats myself.


Racial slants and threats are wrong but since when does that mean you can go and kill six people? I grew up in a town of about 60k and while i know the town isnt racially tolerant as a whole most people are. Most of my cousins hunt and i know none of them would be acting like that. I dont care what someone says to me, there are no words that call for killing six people. He didnt beat these people up, they are dead. Even if what Vang claims is true that he perceived he was shot at first, going on a rampage like that is insane.


Vang said he continued firing as the group scattered, and at one point chased one of the hunters and shot him in the back, only to find the man had no gun, the document states.

I dont think its that shocking Vang has his own side of the story but even if it happened exactly as he describes(doubtful) he still isnt justified in his actions. No one is going to tell the cops yeah they called me a racial slur so i just had to kill em.

[DeV]

It's hard not to believe his story when he is admitting to shooting them the way he did. And he goes on to admit to chasing one of the guys down and shooting him in the back.

There is no justifiable reason for killing six people unless it's a clear cut case of self defense. Who knows how they would react in a situation like that.

[Alfster]

I realize this is a huge bump, but I figured it'd be easier to bump this than make a new one. Anyway, here's the article from our local newspaper about the trial and such.



Personally for me, this is the most incriminating evidence in the case, "The crime rocked the north woods and not just because of its shocking nature — four of the victims were shot in the back and all but one were unarmed, according to testimony.



Guilty nine times
Vang convicted of all charges after 3½ hours of deliberations
Chuck Rupnow
Leader-Telegram Staff and news services

HAYWARD — A jury found a Hmong immigrant guilty Friday of murdering six deer hunters and wounding two others during a confrontation over trespassing last fall.

After deliberating for about 3½ hours, the jury found Chai Soua Vang guilty on six counts of first-degree intentional homicide and three counts of attempted homicide. The 36-year-old truck driver from St. Paul faces mandatory life in prison. Wisconsin does not have the death penalty.

Vang, dressed in a business suit with family members seated behind him, showed no visible emotion as Sawyer County Judge Norman Yackel read the verdict.

The all-white jury rejected Vang’s claims that he shot in self-defense after one hunter used racial slurs and another fired at him.

The two survivors of the shooting had testified the white hunters never shot at Vang before he opened fire on them after they confronted him about trespassing in a tree stand on their private property in an isolated section of Sawyer County woods near Birchwood on Nov. 21.

Vang was convicted of first-degree intentional homicide in the deaths of Al Laski, Jessica Willers, Robert Crotteau, Joey Crotteau, Mark Roidt and Dennis Drew. He also was found guilty of the attempted murder of Terry Willers and Lauren Hesebeck, with two attempts on Willers. All were from the Rice Lake area.

Outside the court, one of Vang’s friends, Pofwmyeh Yang, questioned the jury’s makeup and maintained Vang was innocent.

“All Caucasian, all American. Why can’t there be one Hmong? Why can’t there be one minority in there?” Yang said. “I believe only one person can judge, and that’s God. But God didn’t judge today.”

Vang’s sister, Chou Vang, said the jury’s short deliberations were not fair to her brother.

“Everyone was white. They do not understand. They will never understand what my brother went through out there,” she said. “He was not a dog to sit there and let them shoot at him. He was proud of who he is.”

Defense lawyer Steven Kohn said the verdict was not a surprise.

“We had no illusions. The facts were incredibly difficult from a defense standpoint,” he said.

While the original jury pool of 450 people included minorities, Kohn said most, if not all, of them asked not to be on the jury because of a conflict or personal feelings.

“They were given the same deference as the Caucasians,” he said.

Relatives of the victims issued statements that the verdict was welcome but couldn’t make up for their loss.

“The verdict of guilty will never bring my brother back, but we can start the healing process,” said Linda Lavin, the sister of Laski.

Bruce Crotteau, brother of shooting victim Robert Crotteau, said his brother was a fun-loving guy with a wide circle of friends, and the only thing he deserved the day of the shooting was to continue the family tradition of fall deer hunting.

The crime rocked the north woods and not just because of its shocking nature — four of the victims were shot in the back and all but one were unarmed, according to testimony. The slayings also occurred during the state’s beloved deer hunting season, and it exposed racial tension between the predominantly white north woods and Hmong immigrants to the region.

Attorney General Peg Lautenschlager, who headed the prosecution team, called it a “just and fair verdict” and said it should not be taken as reflecting racial animosity on either side.

“I would hope that this matter be perceived as it has been, I think, by counsel on both sides — which was a matter between two hunting parties and not something involving race relations,” she said.

With the fall deer hunt approaching, she was asked if there was concern about racial tensions.

“I don’t know if it’s a real concern or not,” she said. “We have not had any significant incidents of concern reported here in Sawyer County, and I would hope that that would be the case throughout the deer hunting season.”

Testimony from Vang and the two shooting survivors highlighted the six-day trial in Sawyer County, a heavily forested recreation mecca about 100 miles northeast of Minnesota’s Twin Cities.

Earlier on Friday, Lautenschlager and Kohn agreed the verdicts would depend on whom the jury believed — Vang or the victims and police.

Either Vang, lost in the woods and trying to get away from the hunting party, acted in self-defense, or he mercilessly shot them after tracking some down and ambushing others.

Vang admittedly went on a shooting rampage after members of the hunting party stopped him for being on their private land Nov. 21.

He said he felt threatened and was shot at once before returning fire. Vang, a father of seven who came to the United States from a refugee camp in Thailand more than 20 years ago, wasn’t hit.

Lautenschlager said Vang, an expert marksman with military experience, may have been ridiculed and called insulting names, but he was not in any danger after the group allowed him to leave.

Vang said he heard a shot, saw a splash of dirt and turned to see Terry Willers pointing a gun at him. He said that was when he dropped to the ground, returned fire and chased down and shot the victims before leaving.

He admitted to the shootings, saying the deaths of three were justified, even though the group had only one gun and fired only one shot, which the two survivors say came after Vang’s shooting spree.

“Starting the shooting is not self-defense,” Lautenschlager told the jury in her closing arguments Friday. “He was allowed to walk away, walked 25 yards and as they turned their ATVs around, he drops and fires.

“What they (said) was wrong, but it’s not unlawful,” she said. “Mr. Vang was not in danger. He was not the victim. The ones he was chasing were the victims, and they were in danger.”

Kohn said no physical evidence supports the stories of two surviving hunters, who said Vang simply opened fire on them.

“It is only their word,” he said about Terry Willers and Hesebeck, who were wounded in the shooting. “How do we know Mr. Willers didn’t fire the gun down there? We don’t know.”

Lautenschlager said no one threatened, endangered or injured Vang in the two-minute confrontation Nov. 21.

“He was insulted, rightfully so, but that doesn’t give you an excuse for killing six people,” Lautenschlager said.

Kohn said the confrontation started because of racial prejudice and verbal insults that had Vang, alone and lost in the woods, fearing for his life.


Testimony from witnesses suggested Vang’s trespassing nearly ended peacefully.

Terry Willers testified Vang apologized and was walking away. The confrontation escalated after Willers called one of the property’s owners, Robert Crotteau, on a radio to report the trespasser, Willers testified.

Crotteau angrily confronted Vang, who testified the hunter used excessive profanity and racial slurs. Crotteau also threatened to report Vang to the authorities.

Crotteau confronted Vang with “some of the most foul, shameful, (disgusting) things that one individual can say to another,” Kohn said. “These are threats. This is intimidating. That causes fear.”

But Lautenschlager said Vang was stewing with anger as he started walking down the trail.

“He can’t yell back. He can’t hit back. He can’t threaten back,” she said. “In his mind, he perhaps recognizes that he wants to get back at these guys.”

Lautenschlager also said Vang repeatedly changed his accounts of the incident, adding and clarifying information after he received more reports about the events.

“He kept changing his story, over and over and over again,” she said. “He changed his story to fit the facts.”

Before the closing arguments started, Yackel gave jurors the option Friday of finding Vang guilty of lesser homicide charges.

For the sixth day, the courtroom was packed with about 100 people, most of them relatives and friends of the victims. Vang, dressed in a business suit, sat at the defense table in front of about two rows of family and friends.

The judge gave jurors the legal definition of self-defense and told them that, under the law, they must consider whether Vang had “opportunity to retreat with safety.”

Jurors — eight women and four men — were picked from Dane County because of publicity about the case and concern about possible anti-Hmong sentiment in the area.


And another one from a random news source.

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=3861694

[Skeeter]

I heard everything was cool, till some bitch chucked a hotdog at him.