Grimswarm camp AOE woes

[Tgo01]

So I learned today that using too many AOEs in warcamps is not such a good idea.

Decided to just go ahead and test every possible spell I could think of that might affect this shroud business.

I didn't bother with spells that just buff players (like 401, 406, 414, etc) nor did I bother with spells that have nothing at all to do with combat (like 925, 420, etc.)

Here is what we have. I'll probably check out monk spells later just for completions' sake.

Minor Spirit:
109 no
110 no
111 no
117 no
118 no - neither single cast nor area cast
119 no
125 no
135 no - tried 20 casts and never affected the shroud

Major Spirit:
201 no
210 yes
212 no
213 yes
214 no
216 no
217 yes
220 no
230 no

Cleric:
300 Don't have a cleric to test

Minor Elemental:
409 no
410 yes
412 no
413 no
415 no
417 no
418 yes
435 yes

Major Elemental:
501 no
502 no
504 no
505 no
510 no
512 yes
514 no
516 no
518 yes - both versions, the group friendly one seemed to piss off the shroud faster than the open cast player friendly version
519 no
525 DID NOT TEST
530 no

Ranger:
607 no
608 no
609 no
610 no
612 yes
615 no
616 no
619 yes
635 yes

Sorcerer:
701 no
702 no
703 single target - no, open cast - yes
705 no
706 no
708 no
709 yes
710 focused - no, open - yes
711 no
713 no
715 no
716 no
717 DID NOT TEST
718 no
719 no
720 DID NOT TEST

Wizard:
Did not try any individual bolt spells, assuming they don't affect the shroud
907 no
908 no
909 yes - open cast version, did not try the evoke/charges version
912 yes
914 no
915 no
916 no
917 no
919 no
920 no

Bard:
1001 yes
1002 no
1005 no
1008 no
1011 yes
1013 no
1015 no
1016 no
1017 DID NOT TEST
1018 yes
1025 no
1030 focused - no, open - yes

Empath:
1101 no
1106 no
1108 no
1110 no
1115 no
1117 yes
1120 yes

Monk:
1201
1203
1207
1210
1211
1219

Paladin (courtesy of Eshielle):
1602 open - Yes
1608 open - Yes
1614 open - Yes
1630 open - Yes

Few things which I find interesting. First of all open cast Web (118) doesn't set off the shroud, I would have thought it would.

No ball spells seemed to affect the shroud, whether it be 111, 713, or any of the wizard ones (except cone of course.)

The most interesting thing was 135 didn't affect the shroud at all. I cast it over 20 times at critters in the first room just to be sure. Either this spell affects the shroud so little that you'll most likely never notice it or even the GMs realize what a shit spell it is so they don't even bother nerfing it in warcamps. Or I suppose it could be a bug/oversight.

[drauz]

So I learned today that using too many AOEs in warcamps is not such a good idea.

Few questions if anyone can answer.

Is there any sort of messaging that indicates if it's safe/not safe to use an AOE?

I'm assuming 435, 1030 and 635 set it off (especially since the wiki states as such) but does 410 set the shroud off? What about sympathy? Empathic link? 703? 709? 1015?

So many spells that actually seem useful in warcamps now suddenly sound off limits.

-The use of mass effect spells in a warcamp now carries the chance of causing a bad magical interaction with the mystical shrouds that surround and permeate each Grimswarm warcamp. The chance of a bad interaction occuring is particularly high near the entrance of a warcamp, with the chance diminishing further into the warcamp. Repeated use of mass effect spells within a short time frame increases the chance of a bad interaction occurring. Particularly powerful mass effect spells (such as Mass Ewave, Nature's Fury, Song of Disruption, Implosion, and such) are particularly susceptible to causing bad interactions.

-Minor mass effect spells (such as Breeze, Call Wind, Mana Focus, Tremors, Quake, etc.) have had their contribution to the mass effect spell limit significantly lessened. Casting any mass effect spells whatsoever in the first two rooms of a warcamp remains a bad idea, however.

-The mass effect spell limiter has been adjusted to provide more warning to players before a backlash effect is triggered. In order to trigger a backlash effect, a player must first cast a mass spell that causes the shroud to become unstable (if the shroud becomes unstable, it will now be messaged to the affected rooms). An unstable shroud does not backlash immediately. However, if mass effect spells continue to be cast in a room with an unstable shroud, there is a growing chance that backlash will occur. If no mass spells are cast in an unstable room for at least 30 seconds, the shroud will regain its stability (with messaging to the room).


Thats all I found regarding it.
I couldn't find all the spells, but I do know there is messaging when "the shroud" starts towards going to hurt you. My best idea for the fastest results is stand at the entrance, which will make it ramp up the fastest, and cast 435 a few times which should get you the exact messaging. I am assuming you want to highlight and maybe even play a sound when that happens because those camps swarm like a mother fucker.

[drauz]

Actually I remembered this guide. It has the messaging and some more warcamp info that isn't on the official wiki.

http://gsguide.wikia.com/wiki/The_Guardians_of_Sunfist_Guide#Warcamps

[Tgo01]

Actually I remembered this guide. It has the messaging and some more warcamp info that isn't on the official wiki.

http://gsguide.wikia.com/wiki/The_Guardians_of_Sunfist_Guide#Warcamps

That's awesome, thank you for the link.

[Whirlin]

I found that 518 CAST was not impacting the shroud. But there were no critters when I did cast... so this may have been an erroneous test
909 Evoke/Cast WAS impacting the shroud
909 STOMP from evoke charges was NOT impacting the shroud

I believe 512 WAS messing with the shroud but 504 was not.

[Tgo01]

That would be pretty crazy if 518 doesn't affect the shroud, but anything is possible in this crazy world we call Elanthia.

[Tgo01]

Updated the first post with all of my finds.

[drauz]

I think ball spells were affecting the shroud in the beginning but I think because they allowed mstrike and berserk, they had to allow some kind of AoE for casters. So they opt'd for the ones that actually require some training.

[Whirlin]

I'm disappointed that open cast 703 triggers shroud... was hoping to set up an alias where my sorc casts 703 when I cast 504.

But thank you for the consolidated list!

[Tgo01]

I think ball spells were affecting the shroud in the beginning but I think because they allowed mstrike and berserk, they had to allow some kind of AoE for casters. So they opt'd for the ones that actually require some training.

So they went with ball spells instead of something weaker like 1030? Lame!


I'm disappointed that open cast 703 triggers shroud... was hoping to set up an alias where my sorc casts 703 when I cast 504.

But thank you for the consolidated list!

It definitely seemed like some spells aggravate the shroud faster than other spells.

Like 619 Mass Calm for example, I had to cast it 4 times before I even received the first warning message of "Distorted ripples begin to appear across the mystical shroud surrounding this area!"

435 seemed like it had 2 or 3 casts for triggering that warning.

Group friendly only version of 518 took me right to the really pissed off shroud messaging of "The ripples in the mystical shroud surrounding the area become more prominent!" with just one cast, as did 709.

From what I recall 703 was more middle of the road as far as the shroud effect goes.

This was all done at the first room of the warcamp as well.

ETA: Oh yeah, 635 for some reason seemed to not affect the shroud much either, which was kind of surprising seeing how powerful it can be. I think I got 4 or 5 casts off before receiving the first warning message.

[droit]

Yeah, there are two classes of AoE spell as far as the shroud is concerned: minor and major. I believe that all spells within each group are weighted the same, but don't quote me on that.

And there really is a fair amount of randomness to the system, so it's not unusual to cast a few majors without activating the shroud.

[Viekn]

I've never done GOS. What exactly happens when you trigger the shroud?

[yesicj]

525 DID NOT TEST


I tried this a while back; if memory serves it just outright doesn't work — no shroud impact or whatever, but that's probably because nothing happens at all. I'd figured it would be as close to a consequence-free way to use it as I was ever going to get, but no such luck.

[Tgo01]

I've never done GOS. What exactly happens when you trigger the shroud?

It either dispels a few spells or does some damage.

Surprisingly it never killed me and I was letting the AOE spells fly before I realized it was a bad idea to use AOEs. But the dispels and damage/stuns were not worth using AOEs.

ETA: I should clarify this, it's not worth using an AOE if you are going to get attacked by the shroud. Apparently the further away you get from the entrance of the camp the more AOEs you can cast before the shroud gets pissed and attacks.

With my guys hunting in a camp though I did just fine with using 135 and everyone else just single targeting Grimswarm. 135 might not do much damage but according to the Wiki:


The blinding effect has a 90% chance to cause the target to lose any prepared spells, as well as have difficulty casting any newly prepared spell. It is easier to evade, block and parry the attacks of a blinded target and to avoid combat maneuvers and creature maneuvers that they attempt.

That's actually pretty damn awesome because the spell users in camps are usually what kill me. But not only that it's easier to evade, block, and parry the blinded critters' attacks and avoid their CM. It's actually a nice little group disabling spell and for some reason it doesn't affect the shroud at all.

[kutter]

So what is next, no hiding in warcamps, they have always been death on a stick, now it is getting even tougher, maybe they do not want people to go GoS?

[Roblar]

now it is getting even tougher, maybe they do not want people to go GoS?

This isn't a new mechanic, people have done fine with the shroud since the beginning.

[droit]

Well, the shroud wasn't a part of the initial release, but it has been a part of warcamps for years now.

Those early days of unlimited AoE spells and a much higher spawn rate were something to behold.

[Roblar]

I remember! :) Pretty sure I joined groups with you Rimalon and Belnia (who were nuts and quickly mastered).

I meant since the beginning of the shroud, but it wasn't more than a monh or some weeks post warcamp creation anyway.

Because pures were destroying them faster then intended. Also, there was the short-lived cman killpure move they did, and warriors did not have MOC incorporated into berserk yet. RT I think may have still have been past the current cap for mstrike (like 20+ seconds) and basically had to kill like a rogue, one at a time hitting and moving rooms (except from the open generally), or hasted.


TLDR is that it is not really getting harder but in fact has gotten easier with several changes (other than that bard spell change and them adding shield manuevers). Much like the Scatter, it was intended to be hunted in groups and now gets plowed overall.

[Tgo01]

All of my guys get their ass handed to them when they solo. In a group though they kill so fast I almost feel bad for the Grimswarm.

Almost.

[droit]

Yeah, I feel like they nerfed the group spawn rate a little too hard with the updates a few years ago. Seems like it doesn't scale well to group killing power.

[Tgo01]

I tried this a while back; if memory serves it just outright doesn't work — no shroud impact or whatever, but that's probably because nothing happens at all. I'd figured it would be as close to a consequence-free way to use it as I was ever going to get, but no such luck.

From what I understand of 525 is it's basically a defunct spell now. Like by default it does nothing but if a GM sees you casting it they might go ahead and let the spell do it's thing as long as you're not casting in a town.

Or something like that.

[Brad]

From what I understand of 525 is it's basically a defunct spell now. Like by default it does nothing but if a GM sees you casting it they might go ahead and let the spell do it's thing as long as you're not casting in a town.

Or something like that.

I have been wondering if that's one of those wizard spells that's going to get updated soon. I hope so, I really want to crush Grimswarm with flaming skydeath. Though I kind of think that should detonate the shroud around the camp so much that it is visible to everyone in the region.

[kutter]

I only have one alt that is in GoS and he mastered maybe 2-3 years ago, but he was a solo hunter when doing it. I have no idea how it would go in a warcamp with a group, maybe I should have tried for that harder. For me, solo mastering GoS was easily the hardest of all the societies. But he is a polearm paladin and never cast then. I did take my slightly older wizard into a warcamp solo at the time and he never had any issues, sort of thought it was surprisingly easy in fact for a solo mid 40's wizard in a warcamp.

[Kaldonis]

Thanks very much for this post!


Actually I remembered this guide. It has the messaging and some more warcamp info that isn't on the official wiki.

http://gsguide.wikia.com/wiki/The_Guardians_of_Sunfist_Guide#Warcamps

Yes. All the official wiki was written by me last November. I didn't have the above link and just went with official documentation. I have now made a section for spells (https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Warcamp#Listing_of_Spells) based on this post. I don't really trust gsguide though, as they seem to have many things wrong, at least for MnS. You can see under Tips and Tricks I put using area Web, because I've been using it in warcamps since as long as I can remember, usually in the entry room.


Yeah, there are two classes of AoE spell as far as the shroud is concerned: minor and major. I believe that all spells within each group are weighted the same, but don't quote me on that.

And there really is a fair amount of randomness to the system, so it's not unusual to cast a few majors without activating the shroud.

Getting the spells into these two sections would be the next goal for gswiki I suppose, besides filling out the spell lists.

Was there actually any testing on MnM? I see the big list of spells on the first post, but there is no "yes" or "no" next to anything.

Incidentally, I use focused implosion as my standard warcamping spell, and it doesn't set off the shroud. You can bet open implosion does, though!

Please take a look at the wiki and make any changes, or post here and let me know what I overlooked.

[Tgo01]

Was there actually any testing on MnM? I see the big list of spells on the first post, but there is no "yes" or "no" next to anything.

I was going to but then I got lazy. I'll post my findings here when I test them.

[Eshielle]

Paladin:
1600 Don't have a paladin to test


Just to add to your list, I personally tested the Paladin AoE spells.

1602 open - Yes
1608 open - Yes
1614 open - Yes
1630 open - Yes

[Tgo01]

Just to add to your list, I personally tested the Paladin AoE spells.

1602 open - Yes
1608 open - Yes
1614 open - Yes
1630 open - Yes

Woot. Thank ya.