National Debt

[Back]

3 weeks after the elections, not even into the 2nd term, the GOP increases government borrowing limits to an all time high while spending less on domestic issues.

$388B Spending Bill May Face Votes Soon (http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?flok=FF-APO-1153&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20041119%2F0218154746.htm&sc=1153)


The giant measure, which may be ready for votes by late Friday, bears extra money for priorities like veterans and the war-torn Darfur region of Sudan, and likely thousands of projects for lawmakers' home districts.

But it was largely colored by Bush's demands for curbs on domestic spending, with only modest increases for favorites like education and cuts for some of the president's own initiatives.

The same budget pressures that squeezed the spending bill forced Republicans to push another measure through Congress late Thursday that will raise the government's debt limit by $800 billion. That would bring to $2.23 trillion the total borrowing increases Bush has needed in his four years in the White House - more than all the debt the country accumulated from its founding through 1986.

Not an economist here, but this seems to defy reason.

[TheRoseLady]

I don't even have a response. I have never understood how anyone could say they voted for this guy for his fiscal policies. I imagine we'll be seeing even more wild times ahead you know all the political capital and stuff. :jerkit:

[peam]

Spend money to make mon..... fund an unwinnable campaign.

Okay I have a revelation for you all here... are you ready for this...WE ARE AT WAR! of course he is going to be spending less on domestic issues.

[Parkbandit]

Let's sit back for just a moment and think about something. What IF this Iraq Democracy does take hold. What IF Iraq finally does become a country where democracy flourishes and spreads to other countries in the area. What IF this does contribute to a lasting peace in the Middle East.

Then this money we are spending will be a drop in the bucket compared to the money we can save in the future. I believe that it's worth the risk. The alternative would be more costly.

[Wezas]

(IRAQ)de·moc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
Government by the *male* people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.

Cambodia - UN put $2 billion into creating their first democratic election in 1993. In 1996 there was a coup d’état.

Like Cambodia - Iraq isn't ready for democracy. They need to work on equality first.


Also, has their been any confirmation about Saddam attempting to run in the upcoming elections? From what I remember it was taken from a quote from one of his lawyers. I hadn't heard much from that story in a few months.

[DeV]

Iraq is not ready for Democracy... this is disappointing news but not surprising in the least. Our administration does not have its priorities in place.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Dave
Okay I have a revelation for you all here... are you ready for this...WE ARE AT WAR! of course he is going to be spending less on domestic issues.

Hasnt he been spending less on domestic issues for the last 4 years?

[Tsa`ah]

Yes, we're at war. Yet we're spending less domestically, the economy (which historically performs well while at war) is still ailing.

No, war is not a reason to run the country into bankruptcy.

Are we banking on foreign debt to the US? What is our history, collecting or absolving debt?

It needs to stop.

[xtc]

Here is my favorite part of the article

“will raise the government's debt limit by $800 billion That would bring to $2.23 trillion the total borrowing increases Bush has needed in his four years in the White House - more than all the debt the country accumulated from its founding through 1986”

Yeah the guy is a friggin genius with money, didn't he bankrupt 2 businesses? I guess he is going for hat trick.

I just saw Eminem's new mosh video and it makes me feel anti-Bush, so here are my thoughts on politics:

Urg, bark, woof, sniffle, argh, clam chowder, fart, 3.

Also how the fuck did I become a Statesman for the Independent party?

HOW DO I RESIGN FROM THIS BULLSHIT?

[Drew]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Yes, we're at war. Yet we're spending less domestically, the economy (which historically performs well while at war) is still ailing.


A. The economy historically does not do well in war, please cite a source.


B. How is the economy ailing? Compared to the internet bubble? If that's the case then the US economy ailed from 1929 (after the land crash) until 1955. And the Netherlands ailed for more than century after the tulip bubble burst. I realize it's politically expedient for an anti-Bushite to compare bubble highs to current day, but by reasonable economic standards are economy is booming (especially considering the crash came under Clinton and was handed to Bush).

[Back]

People before profits.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Drew

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Yes, we're at war. Yet we're spending less domestically, the economy (which historically performs well while at war) is still ailing.


A. The economy historically does not do well in war, please cite a source.


B. How is the economy ailing? Compared to the internet bubble? If that's the case then the US economy ailed from 1929 (after the land crash) until 1955. And the Netherlands ailed for more than century after the tulip bubble burst. I realize it's politically expedient for an anti-Bushite to compare bubble highs to current day, but by reasonable economic standards are economy is booming (especially considering the crash came under Clinton and was handed to Bush).

Politics aside

Regarding the economy, first off markets tumbled today on Greenspan's deficit warning.

We have record high budget and trade deficits.

Oil price per barrel is close to an all time high

US dollar is at record low compared to the Euro and the Japanese yen. Yes I know this will help mfg exports but this has become a smaller % of the US economy over the years & we still can't compete with China or India on price.

Personal consumer debt is at all time high

The pace of new job creation has been slower then expected excluding October

Massive outsourcing of US jobs to China and India

We are poised to have a strong economic year next year however the massive deficit is holding us back

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Drew

A. The economy historically does not do well in war, please cite a source.


B. How is the economy ailing? Compared to the internet bubble? If that's the case then the US economy ailed from 1929 (after the land crash) until 1955. And the Netherlands ailed for more than century after the tulip bubble burst. I realize it's politically expedient for an anti-Bushite to compare bubble highs to current day, but by reasonable economic standards are economy is booming (especially considering the crash came under Clinton and was handed to Bush).

I don't buy the handing off to Bush. Bush took a record surplus and blew it.

Bush also had a huge hand in outsourcing.

I'm sorry, a booming economy per text book definition does not pay insurance premiums, help educational endeavors, and force single income homes into taking on second jobs for a pitiful wage.

For the majority of Americans, those that are in the mid-middle class and down ... the economy sucks ass and isn't showing signs of improving.

[Back]

And thats what kills me about “middle class” rebulicans. They actually think they are getting tax cuts. OH! $300!

Divide your motgage into your monthy. Fine, write off your interest... you still think thats fair?

[Drew]

Bush also had a huge hand in outsourcing.
Yeah, in slowing down the pace of outsourcing. I know some of his economic policies aren't outstanding in that respect but at least he's for outsourcing at all. You can't fault the guy for not embracing it quickly enough, it's a political hot potatoe.

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by Backlash
And thats what kills me about “middle class” rebulicans. They actually think they are getting tax cuts. OH! $300! Yeah, because that asshole in the White House added $2500 to every man, woman and child in America last year alone, that's their cut of the deficit.

Bush RAISED TAXES 2500 DOLLARS. Stick THAT in yoru economics.

[Carl Spackler]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Originally posted by Drew

A. The economy historically does not do well in war, please cite a source.


B. How is the economy ailing? Compared to the internet bubble? If that's the case then the US economy ailed from 1929 (after the land crash) until 1955. And the Netherlands ailed for more than century after the tulip bubble burst. I realize it's politically expedient for an anti-Bushite to compare bubble highs to current day, but by reasonable economic standards are economy is booming (especially considering the crash came under Clinton and was handed to Bush).

I don't buy the handing off to Bush. Bush took a record surplus and blew it.

Bush also had a huge hand in outsourcing.

I'm sorry, a booming economy per text book definition does not pay insurance premiums, help educational endeavors, and force single income homes into taking on second jobs for a pitiful wage.

For the majority of Americans, those that are in the mid-middle class and down ... the economy sucks ass and isn't showing signs of improving.


First off the Economy was on the downfall when Bush took over. Bush on the otherhand, even through 9/11 has led this economy through the shortest recession in history.

Outsourcing is something that has to happen for businesses to survive. Look at it this way, SC Johnson has 12,000 employees currently, about 3,400 work in the US. If they tried to have all 12,000 work in the US they couldn't because their costs would be so high, they wouldn't be able to stay in business, this in turn would cause 3,400 more American jobs to be lost.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
Bush RAISED TAXES 2500 DOLLARS. Stick THAT in yoru economics. Bush is neither a Senator nor a House Representative, and therefore does not have any part of the final say in taxes, trade, or the government borrowing money. But I'm sure it's much easier to just blame Bush for anything that goes wrong in America. I heard that there's been crime recently. Guess that's Bush's fault too, eh?

[Back]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Galleazzo
Bush RAISED TAXES 2500 DOLLARS. Stick THAT in yoru economics. Bush is neither a Senator nor a House Representative, and therefore does not have any part of the final say in taxes, trade, or the government borrowing money. But I'm sure it's much easier to just blame Bush for anything that goes wrong in America. I heard that there's been crime recently. Guess that's Bush's fault too, eh?

So, what IS he responsible for? Really. He has to sign these things and has veto power. If you read the article, you’ll see that he urges Congress to do things. He has a majority in both houses to do his bidding.

He is the leader of our country. That in and of itself means he is responsible. And if crime is high during his term, then yes, he is responsible.

[Latrinsorm]

So it's his fault people vote on party lines?

He's responsible for leading the country and enforcing the laws. I'll accept that he's partially responsible, but to lay all the blame for everything bad at Bush's doorstep while simultaneously ignoring anything good that happens sounds really dumb.

[Back]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
So it's his fault people vote on party lines?

He's responsible for leading the country and enforcing the laws. I'll accept that he's partially responsible, but to lay all the blame for everything bad at Bush's doorstep while simultaneously ignoring anything good that happens sounds really dumb.

Yeah, well, I agree he does take the blame for his administration, his party, and the GOP in general. Its more convenient to use him as an icon for all of that. But thats what an elected leader is.

As for the good things, show me some. I’m all for education programs, and there will probably be no president who will ever live up to my expectations on that. Bush does get some points from me though.

[Latrinsorm]

The big one: Osama said he was going to attack again right around the election. There was no (physical) attack. That, in my mind, gives Bush (indirectly) a hell of a lot of points. Obviously most of the credit goes to the federal agencies involved in, you know, anti-terrorism.

The most hotly contested election EVAR!!!, with the Dems giving the Republicans a run for their money in the Zealotry category (a shame Bush can't run again, you guys might catch us next time :D). And yet, there were no riots, there was no civil war, there was no ROTC building on fire.

I'd talk about the economy, but I can't find any spinless data. :(

[DeV]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
I'd talk about the economy, but I can't find any spinless data. :( So... you couldn't find anything good to share with us about our economy?

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Let's sit back for just a moment and think about something. What IF this Iraq Democracy does take hold. What IF Iraq finally does become a country where democracy flourishes and spreads to other countries in the area. What IF this does contribute to a lasting peace in the Middle East.

Then this money we are spending will be a drop in the bucket compared to the money we can save in the future. I believe that it's worth the risk. The alternative would be more costly.

while I agree that yes, it is a good idea to overthrow dictatorships that could possibly be a threat to United States and other western interests, when in history has something like this ever really worked?

not a big history buff, but most revolutions that successfully overturned and changed their regime came from inside the country (ie, french revolution, Revolutionary war, Maoist revolution in China)..

from what I understand, anytime a superpower came in to a country to change its leadership (vietnam, russian-afghanistan war) it lost pretty miserably, despite how well it looked like it was going to turn out in the beginning. This is still an early war.

What is happening to prevent outside countries from supplying gear and intelligence to some of these 'insurgents' and other militant groups?
(if China wants economic dominance, why wouldn't it help?)

Guerrilla warfare is extremely difficult to suppress.

Without more help from NATO and Europe, this will turn ugly.. especially if we go to war with Iran and North Korea.

This war was a mistake to begin with. but. I can only hope things turn out for the better and support friends and family in Iraq.. braver people then myself.

-on the flip side, I think France and Russia were opposed because they were in positions to suffer economic losses.-

All I am saying is that I think Iraq will turn out to be another standard dictatorship that comes back to bite the USA in the ass, much like when the Reagan Administration installed Saddam as leader in the first place

another thing that i might add regarding the economy, since it seems i was off topic with that last post..


The dollar is at an all time low VS. the Euro, and other currencies:

This is good for US companies operating in Europe, as their earnings will increase..

People who live in the US and work in Canada are doing better economically..

It may actually spur investment by encouraging currency traders and other countries to invest in America.

Outsourcing has fairly minute impact on the economy, IMHO, because well, companies save money, then reinvest it. it's not like they're hoarding all this money.

This leaves room for companies to increase employment in other departments. Or reinvest in infrastructure, marketing or other areas...

Face it, we're quickly expanding to a world economy, so we might actually have to accept the fact that we're going to see more outsourcing and try to come up with other indsutries that can't be easily outsourced.

Biotech, R&D, new technology.. all that good stuff is seeing a surge in new investment, so I have a positive outlook on where our economy is headed.

Ultimately, this means that we WILL see a larger gap between upper and lower class, we WILL see more educated workers entering the economy, and we WILL see more service oriented small business increasing.

Blah blah blah blah blah

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
So... you couldn't find anything good to share with us about our economy? I've got a whole email from the President's posse about how Home Ownership is at an all time high! and so on, but seeing as how either side says the exact opposite (Bush sucks! Bush rulz!) I felt it best to disregard the subject entirely.