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11-18-2004, 09:07 PM
Wall Street Journal
November 17, 2004
Pg. 16

Victory In Fallujah


So coalition forces strike the city of Fallujah, and Iraqi insurgents respond by attacking in Mosul, Baquba, Kirkuk and Suweira. This, we now hear, proves that the more insurgents the U.S. kills, the stronger the insurgency grows. Call it the Obi-Wan Kenobi school of international relations: Strike him down, and he'll only become more powerful.

In real warfare, of course, killing the enemy means there are fewer enemies to kill. And in one week in Fallujah, and at the cost of some 40 American soldiers' lives and several Iraqi ones, about 1,200 insurgents were killed and another 1,000 taken prisoner. The insurgents have been denied their principal sanctuary. Their torture chambers -- a stark indication of what they intend for all of Iraq if they're allowed to prevail -- lie exposed.

More important is the demonstration effect: Ordinary Iraqis can take heart that the Allawi government and the U.S. mean business, something that had been put into doubt by the failure to take Fallujah back in April. The sooner and more aggressively the fight is taken to other insurgent strongholds, the better the chances that January's scheduled elections can be held on time, in conditions of relative security, and with Iraq's Sunni minority committed (or resigned) to pursuing their options at the ballot box.

Assessing the ultimate impact of any battle takes time: It is true that of the 5,000 insurgents estimated to have been in Fallujah, the majority, including terrorist ringleader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, appear to have gotten away in the exodus of civilians that preceded the battle. These insurgents will no doubt continue to mount gruesome attacks throughout the country, with the aim of cowing the silent majority of Iraqis who'd like to be on the side of freedom if given the chance.

Still, it is instructive to note the view the insurgents themselves took of the battle. In an audio recording transmitted on the Internet, a voice said to be Zarqawi's warns, "Once they have finished in Fallujah, they will head toward you. You must not let them succeed in their plan." That sounds more like the voice of desperation than it does the voice of confidence.

Another point in the Zarqawi recording bears attention: "This war is very long, and always think of this as the beginning, and always make the enemy think that yesterday was better than today." In Israel, this is known as the question of the barrel: Is there a bottom to it or not? Beyond whatever tactics the Iraqi insurgents may employ, their strategy is to convince Americans that there is no bottom; that their cause enjoys huge popular support; that it feeds off the resentments that "occupation" inevitably engenders; and that it can go on undeterred by whatever damage U.S. forces inflict.

Sadly, there are plenty of Westerners willing to buy into this hypothesis, since it sits so well with those who think the war was a mistake and thus can't imagine that we can still win. Yet apart from the military success, the big news of the Fallujah campaign is that most Iraqis quietly supported it. The protests from nationalist politicians was far more muted than in April, perhaps because they have seen from the car bombings and beheadings what the Zarqawis also intend for them.

The task now is to build quickly on success in Fallujah by wiping out other insurgent strongholds such as Ramadi. We are also encouraged to see that Iraqi forces seem to have performed marginally better in Fallujah than they had in the past. Continued operations should help train, integrate and harden the Iraqis, particularly their officers. Their willingness to fight will increase the more they witness our determination to win.

11-18-2004, 09:11 PM
Didn't some suicide bomber just kill a dozen U.S. troops like less than 24 hours ago?

11-18-2004, 09:14 PM
? point being?

11-18-2004, 09:16 PM
I dunno.

I wouldn't really call it a victory when we have spazzes still blowing up our troops everyday way past a non-combatant phase, and the Iraqi council saying their police are doing an inadequate job at curbing insurgents.

11-18-2004, 09:20 PM
Different type of warfare, not as easy to deal with, rather impossible to deal with in fact. Basicly this was the start, now we need to continue and finish the job. Thankfully we have the Iraqi National Guard fighting side by side with us this time and not turning tail and running, which means they are willing to fight for their own freedom.

DeV
11-18-2004, 10:17 PM
This war seems endless.

11-18-2004, 10:24 PM
Its going to last a few more years DEV, that is without question, then Iraq will most likely we will end up keeping a force in country for many years to come, simmilar to Germany post ww2 and Korea.

Anebriated
11-18-2004, 10:29 PM
Bush's plan is basically something like 8 waves of new troops to be sent over during the next 5 years or so. There is also talk of a US military base to be built in Iraq. My friend who was marine reserves(did his time and has stayed active in the reserves) has been told his unit was going to be shipped about 4 times so far. They have even been told to tell their families that they would be leaving within the week, but never left.

Latrinsorm
11-18-2004, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by Elrodin
They have even been told to tell their families that they would be leaving within the week, but never left. Marines are such pranksters.

Nieninque
11-19-2004, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by Dave
Its going to last a few more years DEV, that is without question, then Iraq will most likely we will end up keeping a force in country for many years to come, simmilar to Germany post ww2 and Korea.

I see it as more similar to the "war" in Northern Ireland or the Gaza strip than I do the war in post war Germany.

If it is insurgents you are fighting, there is no visible enemy, there is no organised army and a lot of the time you are chasing your own shadow, until you meet with a car-bomb or suicide bomber.

It isnt the case such as in Gulf War volume 1 that there is a clear task ahead and when that task is completely we can crack open the champers and all go home. This will last decades, not years.

Wezas
11-19-2004, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
Didn't some suicide bomber just kill a dozen U.S. troops like less than 24 hours ago?

Quiet! No remarks like that while we're putting the banner up.

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/28/mission.accomplished/vstory.bush.banner.afp.jpg

DeV
11-19-2004, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by Nieninque
This will last decades, not years. My sentiments exactly... I couldn't even reply to Edine because I'm not sure how he can believe the type of propaganda he's been spewing.

Post-war Iraq will never compare to what we have in Germany and Korea.

11-19-2004, 10:56 AM
I think that this will not take decades. I believe if the elections are without serious controversy that we'll already then start seeing a decline.

- Arkans

Parkbandit
11-19-2004, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by DarkelfVold

Originally posted by Nieninque
This will last decades, not years. My sentiments exactly... I couldn't even reply to Edine because I'm not sure how he can believe the type of propaganda he's been spewing.

Post-war Iraq will never compare to what we have in Germany and Korea.

Really? I didn't realize you had that gift of looking into the future. Can you help a brother out and tell me the winning numbers to the Florida State lottery this Saturday?

Thanks man. Also, please note my signature.. because it works here.. in a reverse kind of way.

DeV
11-19-2004, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by DarkelfVold

Originally posted by Nieninque
This will last decades, not years. My sentiments exactly... I couldn't even reply to Edine because I'm not sure how he can believe the type of propaganda he's been spewing.

Post-war Iraq will never compare to what we have in Germany and Korea.

Really? I didn't realize you had that gift of looking into the future. Can you help a brother out and tell me the winning numbers to the Florida State lottery this Saturday?

Thanks man. Also, please note my signature.. because it works here.. in a reverse kind of way. I'd definitely help a brother out, if you were one. :) If you're referring to me saying Post-war Iraq will never be what we see in Germany and Korea... I'm basing it off of common sense and pure opinion. Things may go very smoothly and things may not... I just can't see it happening, at this point.

11-19-2004, 02:40 PM
more like pure opinion DEV, you dont have common sense when it comes to a subject like this, mainly because something like this has never happend before.

Dhuul
11-19-2004, 02:43 PM
it's not hard to waste clumps of towelheads with an M60, especially if they're not even full-grown or very well-armed.

but we gotta do it, so they can participate in a legitimate election. of course, there's going to be fewer of them to vote, but that's collateral damage.

DeV
11-19-2004, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by Dave
more like pure opinion DEV, you dont have common sense when it comes to a subject like this, mainly because something like this has never happend before. :rofl: Ok.. where to begin.

Dave, it's a known fact that you are distinguished for spreading ignorance and the sad part about it is that you're sincere. Where facts are few, experts are many, yourself included. I never said I was an expert, but I can harbor an opinion just like I stated that's all it was. You know about as much as the rest of us. Matter of fact you could probably type every thing you know about the outcome of this war on the back of a postage stamp.


In one sense you tell me I don't have common sense on the subject and in the next breath say it's because something like this has never happened before yet previously you say:


Iraq will most likely we will end up keeping a force in country for many years to come, simmilar to Germany post ww2 and Korea.
So, which is it?

Parkbandit
11-19-2004, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by DarkelfVoldMatter of fact you could probably type every thing you know about the outcome of this war on the back of a postage stamp.


I imagine we could all do this in regards to what we "KNOW" about the outcome of this war.

Opinion <> Know

DeV
11-19-2004, 03:24 PM
Very true PB. Hell, I know about as much as you do which is why I take anything stated about the war with a grain of sand including my own opinions.

Tsa`ah
11-19-2004, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by Dave
more like pure opinion DEV, you dont have common sense when it comes to a subject like this, mainly because something like this has never happend before.

This, coming from you ... very funny.

xtc
11-19-2004, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by Dave
mainly because something like this has never happend before.


I hate to contradict you, but it has in 1917. To paraphrase Santayana, he who does not know his history is doomed to repeat it.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/viewthread.php?tid=10058

11-19-2004, 11:52 PM
This is like a repeat battle of Algiers.

Latrinsorm
11-19-2004, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by xtc
I hate to contradict you, but it has in 1917. To paraphrase Santayana, he who does not know his history is doomed to repeat it.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/viewthread.php?tid=10058 You realize the source of your quote in that thread is busted, right?

xtc
11-20-2004, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by xtc
I hate to contradict you, but it has in 1917. To paraphrase Santayana, he who does not know his history is doomed to repeat it.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/viewthread.php?tid=10058 You realize the source of your quote in that thread is busted, right?

Sorry here is the same article different source

Iraq, 1917
They came as liberators but were met by fierce resistance outside Baghdad. Humiliating treatment of prisoners and heavy-handed action in Najaf and Fallujah further alienated the local population. A planned handover of power proved unworkable. Britain's 1917 occupation of Iraq holds uncanny parallels with today - and if we want to know what will happen there next, we need only turn to our history books...

http://www.globalecho.org/view_article.php?aid=677

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11-20-2004, 12:21 AM
The Paradox of Pakistan

The Carlyle Group

[Edited on 11-20-2004 by Backlash]