Considering swapping to sword and board from TWC

[Zhiart]

I'm getting hit...A LOT. Also tired of berserking around and not getting to loot the bodies. So I'm considering swapping to sword and board. I know that this obviously will slow down my killing rate, but I wasn't sure by how much. Also, as a dwarf, should I go for ambush or MOC or both? If both what are the scenarios for using each?

I've went through the forums a bit to comb for info on shield man recommendations but they seem somewhat conflicted. Does anyone have some feedback on what shieldmans are worth it and what isn't?

[Zhiart]

Also, are tower shields the only way to go for warriors?

[Shaps]

Sword and Board is fine, just be sure to get full ranks of Trample. You can still berserk.

I'm not sure what level you are, but I would focus on either 55 or 90 ranks of MOC, 40 ranks of ambush, 2xCM, and 1xPerception.

I would also recommend getting EBlock - the damage mitigation from flares/ball/magic spells is invaluable.

[Lord Orbstar]

Prop up

[Mogonis]

DO IT

[Astray]

Lay down in offensive with your tower shield in plate and just laugh as stuff tries to murder you.

[Zhiart]

35 trains so unfortunately no plate yet and 55 MOC would take 1.5x MOC which is a lot of points. Is that more important than ambush? Also I heard 25 ranks of ambush w/ 2x CM, or is that for higher trains?

[Shaps]

At 35, would then recommend 30 ranks of MOC. Take a look at the wiki for the break points.

Ambush is different, giving you different ways to attack a foe. Research from awhile back, if I recall, said diminishing returns after 40 ranks was absurd. So 2xCM and 40 ranks of ambush should be plenty till cap.

As a Dwarf with OHE/Board, set your aim to right/left leg.. knock them down.. then crush their heads. Or Trample, ambush head. Or just go berserk. It all works.

[Mohrgan]

If you are going OHE/Shield I would get up to 30 or so of ambush ASAP. Aiming your shots is crucial with sword and board, you compensate for less damage per swing by swinging at what you want to hit. Virtually the only time I'm using "ATTACK" instead of "AMBUSH" is when I'm in an invasion and its all just hack and slash. Or non-corp undead...and for those, focused MoC when you get there.

MoC is great as it gets higher up, but at the level you are at, your money is going to be with open aiming. Once you get your ambush to where it needs to be, then you can worry about pumping up the MoC beyond that 30 ranks, like Shaps says.

I second and third shield trample and trample mastery for shield maneuvers (for crowds) and shield bash (via SHIELD points, so you can use the CMAN points elsewhere) for one on one (same RT as trample but disables the critter much more, with increased RT, head wounds, stuns).


And work on your Guild training for Tricks so you can feint well, if you haven't yet.

For CMANs, blockmastery + tower shield is just funny. You can turtle in defensive with it and be near untouchable, if you want. Might even be overkill, but I love it.

[Zhiart]

For guild training, I have feint but not many extra skill points to go into tricks. I'm already a berserk master and 53 ranks of cries. I shouldn't have any issue having 30 ambush and 30 MOC at this train. That of course will depend on if I should be 2xing or 3xing shield use though.

Should I be looking for a crit weighted weapon for living critters?

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

[Mohrgan]

For guild training, I have feint but not many extra skill points to go into tricks. I'm already a berserk master and 53 ranks of cries. I shouldn't have any issue having 30 ambush and 30 MOC at this train. That of course will depend on if I should be 2xing or 3xing shield use though.

Should I be looking for a crit weighted weapon for living critters?

Thanks everyone for the feedback.


If you have access to a nice crit weighted weapon, then I'd say yes, for sure. I use a crit weighted axe for living and a perfect forged one for undead.

My approach to shield training was to always train minimum of 2x and then pump extra points into getting toward 3x whenever I could. I tried to get to 3x in midrange levels, but found that the first place I would go for extra TPs for anything I was working on would be to drop off that 3rd shield rank each level. I was probably in the vicinity of 2.5x (or less) when I reached cap then completed 3x as one of my first post cap goals. It's pretty expensive to do strict 3x pre-cap.

[Vorpodu]

3x shield use is more than doable pre cap. Just don't train dodge. You don't need it. Especially triple shield use, tower shield mastery and block mastery. I will second the 30 ranks ambush and 2x CM, 1x perception before even worrying about MoC too much. Train enough to get a 3 unfocused swing and then forget about it a while. Focused mstrike isnt that great. Use the extra points to also triple armor to get in full plate asap. I also recommend using CMAN points for SBASH instead of SHIELD points. There are far too many good shield maneuvers. Open ambushing is where the money is when you're sword and board.

[Zhiart]

I thought 1x dodge for life was the Warrior motto (until Cap)?

Vorp our post helps a lot because I was wondering if 3x shield or 3x armor was more important first (up to 140-150 armor).

[Astray]

1x dodge 4 lyfe.

[Jeril]

With the advent of shield maneuvers I'd say 3x shield use and 0 dodge. Also cut back on armor down to 2x if you have to. At your level I don't think you'd need to though. I'd say get 30 ranks of both MoC and ambush then start working your MoC up to 135 ranks. Using a shield getting into fullplate asap isn't really a priority you'll do great with just metal breastplate and the higher DS from shields.

You can find a thread with all my skills posted shield maneuvers included. Trample looks great and if I wasn't in voln with symbol of sleep I'd maybe consider using it. I'd likely use shield bash if I didn't primarily use a spear and charge. Block mastery with tortoise stance is hilarious. I went more defensive with my build but you can probably find some things to cut and make room for trample if you had to.

[Warriorbird]

2x dodge for life

[Astray]

0 dodge

TRAITOR!

[Jeril]

TRAITOR!

Having more shield maneuvers just provides a better advantage then saving a few tps by training 1x dodge instead of 3x shield. Of course Jeril was 3x dodge before 3x shield but all postcap so kind of a moot point.

[Astray]

Having more shield maneuvers just provides a better advantage then saving a few tps by training 1x dodge instead of 3x shield. Of course Jeril was 3x dodge before 3x shield but all postcap so kind of a moot point.

Don't make me twirl my beating stick in your general direction.

[Jeril]

Don't make me twirl my beating stick in your general direction.

Don't threaten me with a good time.

[Astray]

Don't threaten me with a good time.

We'll see how good of a time you have when you're getting beat so hard you scream!

Wait a minute...

[Donquix]

I'm so triggered now.

[Zhiart]

Don't threaten me with a good time.

Your mom threatened me with a good time.

[Mohrgan]

3x shield use is more than doable pre cap. Just don't train dodge. You don't need it. Especially triple shield use, tower shield mastery and block mastery. I will second the 30 ranks ambush and 2x CM, 1x perception before even worrying about MoC too much. Train enough to get a 3 unfocused swing and then forget about it a while. Focused mstrike isnt that great. Use the extra points to also triple armor to get in full plate asap. I also recommend using CMAN points for SBASH instead of SHIELD points. There are far too many good shield maneuvers. Open ambushing is where the money is when you're sword and board.

Yeah, I was always in the 1x dodge camp. Also was well post-cap and long since 3x shields by the time Shield Maneuvers came out. I may well have done things differently if shield maneuvers had been a thing back then.

I've always found CMAN points a lot tighter than shield points, personally. I suppose its up to what maneuvers you like/use.

[Shaps]

3x Shield and 1x Dodge is very nice to have. I notice a marked difference on my shield users. Though maybe it just "feels" that way, and mathematically doesn't mean squat.

[Zhiart]

So here's what I got. WHat other shield manuevers should I pick up?

Race: Dwarf Profession: Warrior (not shown)
Gender: Male Age: 0 Expr: 1,383,499 Level: 35
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 65 (17) ... 65 (17)
Constitution (CON): 72 (26) ... 72 (26)
Dexterity (DEX): 81 (15) ... 81 (15)
Agility (AGI): 83 (11) ... 83 (11)
Discipline (DIS): 80 (25) ... 80 (25)
Aura (AUR): 89 (9) ... 89 (9)
Logic (LOG): 92 (26) ... 92 (26)
Intuition (INT): 72 (11) ... 72 (11)
Wisdom (WIS): 85 (17) ... 85 (17)
Influence (INF): 73 (1) ... 73 (1)
Mana: 4 Silver: 5000


Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 198 98
Shield Use.........................| 211 111
Combat Maneuvers...................| 174 74
Edged Weapons......................| 174 74
Ambush.............................| 120 30
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 120 30
Physical Fitness...................| 174 74
Perception.........................| 120 30
Climbing...........................| 96 22
Swimming...........................| 50 10
First Aid..........................| 50 10
Training Points: 0 Phy 9 Mnt (818 Mnt converted to Phy)


Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Specialization I wspec1 3
Weapon Bonding bonding 5
Combat Mobility mobility 1
Block Mastery bmastery 3
Griffin's Voice griffin 1

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Shield Bash bash 3
Shield Charge charge 2
Block the Elements eblock 1
Shield Trample trample 3
Shield Trample Mastery tmastery 1

Available Shield Training Points: 67

You are Guild Master of the Warrior Guild.
You are current with your dues and must check in again sometime in the next 12 days.
You currently have 34 task trading vouchers.
You currently have 134 ranks out of a possible 134 for your training.

You have 5 ranks in the Disarm Weapon skill.
You have earned enough training points for your next rank.

You are a Master of Berserk.

You have 10 ranks in the Warrior Tricks skill.
You need 47 training points to earn your next rank.
The Training Administrator told you to practice Juggling for an audience.
You have 13 repetitions remaining to complete this task.

You have 1 rank in the Tackle skill.
You are not currently training in this skill.

You have 60 ranks in the War Cries skill.
You are not currently training in this skill.

You have 1 rank in the Batter Barriers skill.
You need 100 training points to earn your next rank.
The Training Administrator told you to break up some old boards from the wood shed.
You will need to do 10 hit points of damage for each repetition.
You have 4 repetitions remaining to complete this task.

[Ardwen]

the 1x dodge is handy to have in those instances you happen to have put your shield away, I am however in a totally different camp on ambush, I have had zero ambush since I lost the ability to hide, I hit where I am well over 75 percent of the time, you'd be better serve however to go zero dodge and zero ambush and tripling or whatever you can manage PF, better redux, more stamina and better stamina recovery are all huge benefits.

[Shaps]

Ardwen is by far the more knowledgeable warrior, but I disagree with the ambush theory.

In effect with your current training: Ambush training is done until cap and the benefits to your aiming are significant. At this point you can start pushing those points into extra PF per Ardwen's guidance.

I tend to think of training my guys to reach specific caps early for certain skills, so I don't have to think about them again until post-cap (ie. 40 ranks climb/swim; 40 ranks ambush; 150 ranks armor; etc.).

Just 2 different ways to skin a cat really, and depends on the person.

I see you have 10 ranks in FA... moving forward... I would recommend priorities should be: Get armor to 150 ranks (done till cap); then get Shield to 3x/level; Push extra points to try and lift PF above 2x/level; and for FUN (and great money) - train FA and SURV to 1x/level to allow for skinning/foraging/added elements protection (though thats just for RP/money making - not necessary).

Looks good though on your training so far.

[Shaps]

Oh and a side note.. I would also pick either Scrolls or MIU to start training in.. Gives you longer durations/flexibility.. but also starts building for when you eventually get to spellburst areas. But again that is a personal choice.

[Vorpodu]

Tower shield mastery. You need tower shield mastery. For the CvA if not for anything else. Plus it opens up all the things.

[Zhiart]

Here is what I'm at now

tfocus 3
bash 3
charge 2
eblock 1
trample 5
tmastery 1

31 points left

I am considering picking up protective wall for the group aspect and plus rank 2 would halve the penalty for me too. Deflection looks nice too but only for grimswarm and bandits really, so may not be as versatile as something like more shield bash ranks. Thoughts?

[Vorpodu]

Deflection training is situational but deflection mastery on the other hand, additional maneuver defense all the time and quite good. That's why it's so expensive. 2 ranks of protective wall is cheap and the bonus is good, I recommend. As well as prop up and adamantine bulwark.

[Zhiart]

Adamantine bulwark looks sweet as hell. Just thought it was expensive with having to get prop up rank 2 first. Think I'll get protective wall and then start going for deflection mastery.

[Vorpodu]

Which is why I recommended getting SBASH and maybe even scharge with CMAN points instead of SHIELD points. There are a ton of good shield manuevers.

[Zhiart]

yeah I'll probably migrate them over at some point. I just had enough cman points to get all the things that I felt like I really needed.

[Larkan]

Late response but I took Larkan from 1 - 65 with sword and board.

Couple of points:

1) I think 1x dodge is worthwhile

2) your rate of killing will slow down but your rate of dying will too. The most unfortunate thing is that sword and board seems to fall off sharply around level 60 when you start fighting heavily armored critters. I basically ended up swapping to THW then.

3) I think you are extremely dependent on having a decent weapon. I used a 6x perfect handaxe for most of the high levels and before that a 5x fel hafter, if you dont have a hard hitting weapon or aren't willing to buy one I wouldn't bother.

My 2 cents.

Good luck

[Zhiart]

I ended up getting a +8 vhcw T3 handaxe, and I've got a 6x perfect T2 for undead. Crappy thing is I haven't been able to hunt him as much because most of the time I was hunting was scripting while keeping an eye on him at work. I can't figure out a good way to bigshot with ambush.

[Gompers]

I can't figure out a good way to bigshot with ambush.

Aim left leg and ambush target, aim head and ambush target

Obviously there are variations, but what is the problem?

[Zhiart]

Problem is when you don't leg them and then they are too tall for ya to hit cause you're a short dwarf.