Swap Wizard Bolts and CS spells around?

[Maerit]

This is a poll to gauge whether the community feels like it would benefit the Wizard class and it's training structure to change the spell list so the majority of bolt spells would reside in the Major Elemental Spell circle, and the majority of the wizard CS spells would reside in the Wizard spell circle.

Benefits being that over-training Wizard spell circle would become much more prevalent and make wizards align better with the other pures.

Swap Examples:

501 - 901
502 - 903
504 - 904
505 - 906
512 - 910
514 - 914
516 - 916
519 - 919

Doing many or all of the above would allow Wizards to focus on over-training their primary spell circle to increase CS while training the 500s as a secondary spell circle similar to how Empaths and Clerics train MjS. This would also improve enchanting performance - and make 912 more reliable as Wizards could over-train 900s which according to Estild is the method of improving 912's performance.

After reading many wizard training plans, most people leave 900s lower until they want to start making Enchanting a priority due to the limited benefit of increasing Wizard Spell ranks.

Would this be an incredible under-taking in development I wonder? What kind of disadvantages would this cause?

[Jarvan]

So basically.. you want a Wizard to be essentially perfect in both CS and Bolt at the same time. Yeah... no reason at all to have diversity.

[Maerit]

So basically.. you want a Wizard to be essentially perfect in both CS and Bolt at the same time. Yeah... no reason at all to have diversity.

I'm confused though - isn't this how the other pures work? As a Sorcerer, Cleric, Empath, focusing on my secondary spell circles doesn't improve me nearly as much as focusing on my profession spell circle. Clerics and Empaths rarely rely on the CS options available in the MjS spell circle. They're there, but they are not particularly powerful when compared to the options in their primary profession spell circle.

I guess I'm just wondering if that makes sense for Wizards.

[Mettler]

I'm confused though - isn't this how the other pures work? As a Sorcerer, Cleric, Empath, focusing on my secondary spell circles doesn't improve me nearly as much as focusing on my profession spell circle. Clerics and Empaths rarely rely on the CS options available in the MjS spell circle. They're there, but they are not particularly powerful when compared to the options in their primary profession spell circle.

I guess I'm just wondering if that makes sense for Wizards.

It would make sense if there was a warding spell worth overtraining for. Right now 415 with fire lore might be the best we got. Maybe 502 for the mana efficiency. It sure isn't 519 anymore.

[Taernath]

Individual spells and spell types should be adjusted. Rearranging the spell lists doesn't address the root causes of why they have issues.

[Jarvan]

I'm confused though - isn't this how the other pures work? As a Sorcerer, Cleric, Empath, focusing on my secondary spell circles doesn't improve me nearly as much as focusing on my profession spell circle. Clerics and Empaths rarely rely on the CS options available in the MjS spell circle. They're there, but they are not particularly powerful when compared to the options in their primary profession spell circle.

I guess I'm just wondering if that makes sense for Wizards.

I am confused... Do Sorcs, Clerics, and Empaths have pretty much an entire circle of spells that are a different combat type then their main? No. Wizards, sad to say to most people out there, are primarily a bolter (Hence why they are in the CLASS list). They do get some decent CS spells, and you can focus on CS spells if you wish, but rearranging the spell lists so you can min/max spells to have the best of both without any consequences... that is pretty stupid.

"I am a CS wizard... but I don't want my enchanting to suffer.. so please throw away 30 years of GS to suit my desires"

Yep.. makes TOTAL sense.

[drauz]

I am confused... Do Sorcs, Clerics, and Empaths have pretty much an entire circle of spells that are a different combat type then their main? No. Wizards, sad to say to most people out there, are primarily a bolter (Hence why they are in the CLASS list). They do get some decent CS spells, and you can focus on CS spells if you wish, but rearranging the spell lists so you can min/max spells to have the best of both without any consequences... that is pretty stupid.

"I am a CS wizard... but I don't want my enchanting to suffer.. so please throw away 30 years of GS to suit my desires"

Yep.. makes TOTAL sense.

Its cute that you think its for enchanting.

[tyrant-201]

Its cute that you think its for enchanting.

:lol:

[Jarvan]

Its cute that you think its for enchanting.


This would also improve enchanting performance - and make 912 more reliable as Wizards could over-train 900s which according to Estild is the method of improving 912's performance.

After reading many wizard training plans, most people leave 900s lower until they want to start making Enchanting a priority due to the limited benefit of increasing Wizard Spell ranks.




It's cute you are an idiot. I was using the OP's words.

[Methais]

I am confused... Do Sorcs, Clerics, and Empaths have pretty much an entire circle of spells that are a different combat type then their main? No. Wizards, sad to say to most people out there, are primarily a bolter (Hence why they are in the CLASS list). They do get some decent CS spells, and you can focus on CS spells if you wish, but rearranging the spell lists so you can min/max spells to have the best of both without any consequences... that is pretty stupid.

"I am a CS wizard... but I don't want my enchanting to suffer.. so please throw away 30 years of GS to suit my desires"

Yep.. makes TOTAL sense.

I had 67 wizard ranks for years with Max MjE CS and still haven't failed any type of enchant, for what it's worth.

[Maerit]

I had 67 wizard ranks for years with Max MjE CS and still haven't failed any type of enchant, for what it's worth.

Well, that is very good information.

I think the primary reason this discussion arose was due to the recent Wizard changes highlighting the weaknesses in Wizard disabling utility. Specifically the conversation on the officials that pointed out that very few of the Wizard disabler spells are very reliable in post-cap hunting areas.

410 - too level based, doesn't work well on creatures in areas like the Scatter and Confluence
909 - First pulse works well, subsequent pulses tend to not work - creatures just stand up right after cast RT ends and often cast before standing up.

*912 - This spell was explained to be reliant on Wizard Spell ranks by Estild. The more ranks in Wizard spells you have, the more effective. In post-cap hunting areas, apparently the only way to make this spell effective is to over-train Wizard Spell ranks. The term "hidden CS" was thrown around by players, but it is apparently not restricted by level as much as 410 per the conversation.

In the end, there was no reliable mass disabler because no method existed to train in the same capacity that other Pures train. CS disablers were the primary reason for this concern. Sorcerers use mass Evil Eye (717) or Grasp of the Grave (709). Clerics can use Censure (316) and sometimes Divine Wrath? Empaths can use Sympathy (1120). These are all within their class spell circle, making them much more reliable due to over-training.

So, a small discussion started about the benefits of making the Wizard spell circle the "primary" circle. As it stands, if you pooled the Wizard players, I imagine you would find a majority of them have more ranks in MjE than they do in their own profession spell circle (provided the majority of active wizards are not all just enchanter bots). The benefits of changing this system would provide opportunity for a more stream-lined training path. A small side-effect would be the improved ability to enchant higher tiers earlier on in a Wizard's career, but the main reason would be to make spells more reliable.

[caelric]

I'm confused though - isn't this how the other pures work? As a Sorcerer, Cleric, Empath, focusing on my secondary spell circles doesn't improve me nearly as much as focusing on my profession spell circle. Clerics and Empaths rarely rely on the CS options available in the MjS spell circle. They're there, but they are not particularly powerful when compared to the options in their primary profession spell circle.

I guess I'm just wondering if that makes sense for Wizards.

Well, I think the recent wizard spell changes are bullshit, enough so that I quit GS, BUT.....

you can't have it both ways. By that I mean that most wizards are claiming that the 500s, since they are only available to wizards, should be considered a profession circle. You can't claim on one hand that the 500s are a wizard exclusive, and thus, 519 should be compared to other profession circles, and then on the other hand, claim that you shouldn't have to train so much in the 500s because other pures don't have to train so much in their secondary circles.

Now, your proposed solution might solve this issue, but I had to comment on the quoted text, and how it's somewhat disingenuous.

[Methais]

410 - too level based, doesn't work well on creatures in areas like the Scatter and Confluence

I was under the impression that stuff in the Confluence was just unaffected by CC spells. They're base 95 so it shouldn't be a level issue, but I've never affected anything in there with ewave, call wind, etc. I haven't tested Tremors but I'd imagine the results are the same.

The only crowd control that had any effect on them for me was evoke Immolate, which is just RT and doesn't work on at least half of the critters in there.

[Maerit]

I was under the impression that stuff in the Confluence was just unaffected by CC spells. They're base 95 so it shouldn't be a level issue, but I've never affected anything in there with ewave, call wind, etc. I haven't tested Tremors but I'd imagine the results are the same.

The only crowd control that had any effect on them for me was evoke Immolate, which is just RT and doesn't work on at least half of the critters in there.

You are much more an expert in that area than myself. 410 and 912 comparisons were done by a few people and 912 was demonstrated to be somewhat more reliable than 410 in the Scatter (confluence aside), but only 66% reliable by some accounts meaning that 1/3 of the time critters were not effected. The primary reason is due to the lack of incentive to over-train 900s. It seems like the majority of wizards don't seem to bother to even 1x the Wizard circle by most accounts I've read.

In keeping with the theme that wizards have operated this way for 30 years (though the argument could be made that at one point the wizard and MjE spell circles had some major differences, but still...) - perhaps the better solution is to move a reliable mass-disabler to the 500s, or open up 505 to effect the room with sufficient EMC/HP for ~20 mana (only because 501 would probably be too powerful). That would allow a Wizard to stun an entire room. The problem then is that many creatures are stun immune (though is that the case in most post-capped areas... I don't know).

Area-effect 504 was a great change to the spell, it's just not sufficient in giving the wizard "control" of the room. Another option is to increase the initial RT inflicted by 504 based on Warding margin and some kind of training with a max RT inflicted of say 20-25 seconds if sufficiently trained. Spells like 703 (room), 709, 717, 316, 619, 1120, 1614, 1017, hell even 1219 (if you're a crazy monk that trained for it) are much more effective and reliable. There's nothing like that for Wizards.

Based on the conversation, it sounded like Estild was proposing that 912 was the Wizard control spell, but it's not reliable because of the lack of incentive to over-train the 900s.

[Methais]

The problem with Estild wanting 912 being our main disabler is there will always be things at cap immune to those types of effects.

As far as I know, spells like 316 work on everything...living, undead, corporeal, non-corporeal, elemental, etc.

Call wind is a lot more picky with what it actually works on.

Before the nerf, wizards could just burn down the whole room with Rapid Fire, so a reliable room disabler wasn't as important. Now that our defense of fast offense is gone, we need a reliably way to control a room that isn't subject to "this spell doesn't work on these because lolwizards."

Unfortunately Estild still thinks we can just call wind our way to victory everywhere, which seems to be the biggest problem with wizards in that staff is out of touch with the issues wizards deal with like this one.

People: We have no way to keep a room under control like other pures can
Estild: Just call wind
People: Call wind doesn't work
Estild: You still have ewave lolol
People: That barely works at cap either
Estild: Moar wizard ranks call wind!

[Silvean]

Is it not possible to use evoked Immolation as a reliable disabler? I see there's an earlier post in this thread mentioning that it sucks in the confluence but how about in Nelemar?

[Maerit]

Is it not possible to use evoked Immolation as a reliable disabler? I see there's an earlier post in this thread mentioning that it sucks in the confluence but how about in Nelemar?

It's single target is the problem there. I think if you could impose higher RT than 4seconds with Slow (which I believe is the initial RT penalty) via training, then the discussion changes away from making Wizard spell ranks more valuable / useful.

Just look at those room disable spells. They're amazing and powerful and usually pretty dependable. Rangers can calm an entire room. Empaths can make it so nothing in the room can attack them except whatever they enrage. Clerics and Paladins can pretty much bring an entire room to it's knees. Bards and Sorcerers can disrupt an entire room's ability to cast spells (and Sorcerers can do it for 3 mana). Sorcerer Evil Eye can stun targets that are otherwise not able to be stunned (but it don't work on golems!).

And the funny thing is that even Monks, of all the classes in the game, have the best RT disabler. No one is going to argue that 1219 is reliable because Monks are squares, and training enough spell ranks to make 1219 reliable is a ridiculous under-taking, but just look at the effects. If they ever do get around to implementing Savants, that spell will wreck rooms.

[Silvean]

Speaking from the sorcerer hunting in Nelemar perspective, I do not use room disablers often. Mass Evil Eye can kill other characters. Mass Forget is nice but I almost always run from swarms.

If you spend 3 seconds casting mass Forget to disable casters, then you have to start disabling critters with maneuver attacks one by one. Will it be 9 seconds or 12 before the swarm is subdued? That's an unnecessary risk and the better tactic is to run a room over, PEER, and wait for an opportunity to handle the critters in smaller groups.

Invasions are different but those don't matter. They usually ramp up sorcerer TDs during invasions to keep us from using Evil Eye anyway.

What's important for the way I hunt is some kind of individual disabler, so I can handle one or two critters without dying. I don't know if evoked immolate or call wind handles that need for wizards.

[Maerit]

Speaking from the sorcerer hunting in Nelemar perspective, I do not use room disablers often. Mass Evil Eye can kill other characters. Mass Forget is nice but I almost always run from swarms.


Not experienced enough, personally, to know - is Nelemar very swarmy?

I'm one of those "jerk" Sorcerer hunters that uses my room control utility when I feel like it's needed. A handful of times I've had players get mad because one of my 709 arms would pull them down for 3 seconds while they were running through a room, but in the end it rarely happens (and haven't had it kill them yet)

In fact, with the release of 709 it was stated that the arms would prioritize non-player creatures over players, so it will always grab an enemy first, which means that if it does grab a player then all the critters in the room are already laying down (and hopefully in RT) or dead.

That being said, I combine 709 and 703 very frequently to control rooms. I don't often use 717 because I like my loot, but 709 and 703 work wonderfully for my hunting areas. This allows me to lock a room down, nothing can cast, and nothing can attack - then I just focus my attentions on the dangerous targets and move through the list (because Sorcerers aren't great at doing damage to many targets at once).

All of the mass disabler abilities inflict the same risk to players wandering in at the wrong monent. 912, player walks in right before you cast, they get knocked over in a room full of enemies. The problem is, it's far more likely to knock over (and potentially stance) the player than it is to work against the creatures if you're in a place like the Scatter since Wizards are rarely trained to make the spell effective on creatures over their own level, but players --- it works great on players!

In the end, you run the risk of harming players with any mass attack spell. One of my young characters was walking through the trail from Landing to Solhaven, and some one was hunting Bandits with 635 - I just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and got instantly whacked. This can happen to anyone. We, as players, do our best to mitigate the risk to other adventurer's, but your protective hunting style is not necessarily a solution to the issue in question.

[Silvean]

I think mass evil eye is too dangerous to use regularly; I don't care about the other stuff.

I just went from belled to saturated, door to door, in 3 minutes and 38 seconds on a dangerous creature bounty. My hunting is based around recording and beating scores like that.