CM: Cutthroat

[Fallen]

Does anyone else think this skill is overpowered?

Description: Spring from hiding and attempt to slit your target's throat. If fully successful, the target takes significant neck damage and is silenced until they die or the associated neck wound is healed.

Basically, you attack from hiding and are able to do Neck damage, instant HP damage, create a bleeding wound, and Silence someone PERMENANTLY until they die or are healed. Not just from casting spells, but from speaking all together.

This Silence effect is achieved at even an endroll of 101. It does not wear off over time.

Does anyone else see a problem here?


Edited to add: The Maneuver ALSO puts the target in RT. Nice.

[Edited on 11-16-2004 by Fallen]

[Xcalibur]

It will be nerfed.

100$ on it.

[Latrinsorm]

Only in a CvC sense. I'd say the use against creatures is slim at best.

I'd also like to go on record as voicing how stupid it is to have silence from a neck wound but not blindness from BLINDED EYES.

[Fallen]

Here are some shots of the thing in action....


[Roll result: 131 (open d100: 94) Penalties: 30]
You spring from hiding and attempt to slit a hisskra warrior's throat with your razored steel misericord!

You slice deep into the hisskra warrior's vocal chords!
...6 points of damage!
Roundtime: 5 sec.

----
This left the creature in RT, silenced, and with moderate bleeding in the neck.
-----

[Roll result: 172 (open d100: 66) Penalties: 5]
You spring from hiding and attempt to grasp **** by the chin while slitting his throat with your razored steel misericord!

You slice deep into **** vocal chords!
...14 points of damage!
Roundtime: 5 sec.


After this, if you attempt to CAST OR TALK you get this message:
"All you manage to do is cough up some blood. "

It took several seconds for the effect to wear off, after being healed. This was the messaging given...

"***** clears his throat and spits out a small gob of blood."

[Kuyuk]

Fun if you can hit people with it. Though I think the bleeders it gives are puny. (4 per)


K.

[BigBadBonar]

Why didn't you do cutthroat with a dagger?

[Drektor]

This Silence effect is achieved at even an endroll of 101. It does not wear off over time.

Does anyone else see a problem here?


No, because it's untrue.

>cman cut red
[Roll result: 106 (open d100: 61) Penalties: -12]
You spring from hiding and attempt to grasp Red Skull by the chin while slitting his throat with your vultite dagger!

Your aim is slightly off and you only manage to inflict a minor flesh wound upon Red Skull!
...1 points of damage!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
>
Red Skull says, "Hm.."
>nod
You nod.
>
Red Skull, "Only a minor."
>

[Numbers]

So, uh, why doesn't Bloodburst also cause silence?

[Syberus]

We've been wondering that for a long time.

[Trinitis]

Because blood burst causes the artery in your neck to burst..Cut throat *SHOULD* be causing damage to your vocal cords and all other such things found in the neck..

Only reason I could think of.

Then again, cut throat should KILL the person too.

[Seran]

Blood burst is overpowered as it is. I can't say how often I've been annoyed as a rogue to have some idiot sorcerer decide he'd like to give me a 20/round bleeder for *1* mana.

Please try talking with that ripped apart.

- Arkansu

This rogue only?

Anyway, what's with the messaging, vocal cords destroyed, no chance of survival, yet this can somehow keep the victim out of the water...

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by BigBadBonar
Why didn't you do cutthroat with a dagger?

misericord = dagger.

[Parkbandit]

Damn.. I need more CM...

[Kaeral]

I think the CvC or PvP will definetely force simu to nerf it, as Xcalibur said. Basically it's instank kill versus all casting professions, let alone close enough for all the others.

[Parkbandit]

A 4 point neck bleeder is so far away from death to 99% of the population that to say it makes you look ignorant on the most basic of game mechanics.

[Nieninque]

Is it a rogues only CM?

[Parkbandit]

My personal thought on this CM being overpowered is.. it's no more overpowered than any CS based spell... and a great deal less powered than spells like spikethorn, boil earth and the mother of all overpowered shit in the game.. implosion.

So no, from what has been posted so far.. I would give an emphatic no.

[Kaeral]

Hmmm, it sounded like more than a 4 per round neck bleeder when mentioned. I agree then it's not lethal to non casters, but it definetely ends instantly any conflict involving wizards or sorcerers, and some clerics if I'm not mistaken. At lest that's what I gather from what said: permanent silence effectively kills a caster.

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Kaeral
Hmmm, it sounded like more than a 4 per round neck bleeder when mentioned. I agree then it's not lethal to non casters, but it definetely ends instantly any conflict involving wizards or sorcerers, and some clerics if I'm not mistaken. At lest that's what I gather from what said: permanent silence effectively kills a caster.

Because we can't wave wands or in my case swing a weapon?

People need to realize that every profession has more than one way to hunt and if you think removing a casters ability to cast is insta death you're mistaken. You have to be more dynamic than that if you hope to survive.

[AnticorRifling]

And a 4 per bleeder would take 57 rounds to bleed me out and that's if I don't regen any HP and I don't use sign of healing or eat a leaf, etc. I don't think it's that overpowered.

I would love for the wearing of an aventail to totally nerf this CM though.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
It will be nerfed.

100$ on it.

Decisions Decisions.

Should I take the bet with him since it's only $5 American?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Kaeral
Hmmm, it sounded like more than a 4 per round neck bleeder when mentioned. I agree then it's not lethal to non casters, but it definetely ends instantly any conflict involving wizards or sorcerers, and some clerics if I'm not mistaken. At lest that's what I gather from what said: permanent silence effectively kills a caster.

It doesn't immobilize them... they are able to walk away and get healed... so it's FAR from instant death.

[Fallen]

It doesn't immobilize them... they are able to walk away and get healed... so it's FAR from instant death. >>

No spell in the game permanently silences someone. Also, the maneuver puts someone in RT, they cant just walk away.

The person cannot cast, CANNOT TALK until they are healed or they die.

Its overpowered.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Fallen
It doesn't immobilize them... they are able to walk away and get healed... so it's FAR from instant death. >>

No spell in the game permanently silences someone. Also, the maneuver puts someone in RT, they cant just walk away.

The person cannot cast, CANNOT TALK until they are healed or they die.

Its overpowered.

So says the sorcerer with his finger on the implosion macro. :lol:

I haven't tried it yet in game, but from what you have posted, it's far from over powered. I think that Falgrin ambushing off your hand will have just as much effectiveness as this CM because it stops you from casting AND it immobilizes you for a good while.

[AlahnnaDenale]

Originally posted by Parkbandit I think that Falgrin ambushing off your hand will have just as much effectiveness as this CM because it stops you from casting AND it immobilizes you for a good while.

A pure will still have a decent - good DS for you to get through before you can take off that hand.

However, casters = cman bait. We just can't defend against them.

Squares = implosion bait though.. hmm..

>prep 720

[Parkbandit]

Ambush push down + madness + COL regular signs + blue crystal + heroism + Ranger strength + wizard strength + 10x weapon + camo = very few sorcerers Falgrin cannot de-hand if the occasion calls for.

And it's all professions that are implosion bait.. not just squares.

[Edited on 11-16-2004 by Parkbandit]

[Syberus]

It saddens me that everyone seems to think Implosion is the solution to every problem, or the way that every Sorcerer chooses to deal with their problems.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Fallen
It doesn't immobilize them... they are able to walk away and get healed... so it's FAR from instant death. >>

No spell in the game permanently silences someone. Also, the maneuver puts someone in RT, they cant just walk away.

The person cannot cast, CANNOT TALK until they are healed or they die.

Its overpowered.

So says the sorcerer with his finger on the implosion macro. :lol:

I haven't tried it yet in game, but from what you have posted, it's far from over powered. I think that Falgrin ambushing off your hand will have just as much effectiveness as this CM because it stops you from casting AND it immobilizes you for a good while.

Hard to get healed if you cannot ask for healing.

[Fallen]

I haven't tried it yet in game, but from what you have posted, it's far from over powered. I think that Falgrin ambushing off your hand will have just as much effectiveness as this CM because it stops you from casting AND it immobilizes you for a good while.>>

Yes, but you know what? I can still TALK once the stun wears off. I may permanently lose the ability to use that hand, but my shield doesnt fall to the ground.

Using implosion in town used to bring instant death, I still think it does in some places. At very best a near instant arrest and automatic fine. Using Cutthroat in town will be assault with a weapon, if the Constable buys it, which he more often than not wont.

Removing someones ability to speak with one maneuver for a permanent duration is overpowered.

[Nieninque]

clutch my neck

[Stunseed]

< Removing someones ability to speak with one maneuver for a permanent duration is overpowered. >

It's so powerful it should be given to Rangers. I can hamstring you, but I can't slit your throat Columbian style?

[Fallen]

Someone pointed out to me that Headbutt is almost the same thing. I think that maneuver is pretty powerful, but still within a reasonable limit. Cutthroat crosses that line.

The CMAN attack system is unbalanced. With AS attacks, there are plenty of DS raising spells, same goes with CS and TD spells. You can literally gain 10 levels worth of defense with just asking for a few spells. There is nothing anywhere near that for CMAN attacks. Mobility raises your CM defense by something like 5. Thats it. I can gain three times that amount of defense with Mass Guards.

There will never be a selfcast environment. It would mean too many lost accounts for Simu as there will be no more Spell slaves. However, Defensive spells SHOULD raise your CMAN attack defense, even if it is just a token gesture. My Airwall can stop your knife, but not stop your leg when you sweep me?

[Parkbandit]

I'll be conducting some extensive tests with this CM tonight. My target of choice will be Tayvin.

His agreement will not required.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Fallen
I haven't tried it yet in game, but from what you have posted, it's far from over powered. I think that Falgrin ambushing off your hand will have just as much effectiveness as this CM because it stops you from casting AND it immobilizes you for a good while.>>

Yes, but you know what? I can still TALK once the stun wears off. I may permanently lose the ability to use that hand, but my shield doesnt fall to the ground.

Using implosion in town used to bring instant death, I still think it does in some places. At very best a near instant arrest and automatic fine. Using Cutthroat in town will be assault with a weapon, if the Constable buys it, which he more often than not wont.

Removing someones ability to speak with one maneuver for a permanent duration is overpowered.

We see it differently I suppose. I would much rather be silenced as a pure than I would be stunned.

[StrayRogue]

No its not overpowered and no it won't be nerfed, I bet. One, in the same amount of time I can kill you with my greatsword. Two in the same amount of time I'd have two chances of killing you with a dagger. Three, you can't kill people with it. Four, it works similar to garrote & barehug, and they still haven't been nerfed.

[Fallen]

Garrote was nerfed in a fashion, Cloak of Shadows, Wall of Thorns, and Stone Skin now impede attempts.

[StrayRogue]

As they should. That was a logical change.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Fallen
Garrote was nerfed in a fashion, Cloak of Shadows, Wall of Thorns, and Stone Skin now impede attempts.

They don't affect Cutthroat?

[Fallen]

Also, that is part of the problem. You can use this attack in town all the time, and have little chance of killing anyone. You just permanently silence anyone within 10 levels of you if properly trained.

Kill me if you can, thats fine, thats fair. An attack that removes my ability to speak permanently is not. Not with a profession weighted CM roll as the deciding factor.

[Fallen]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Fallen
Garrote was nerfed in a fashion, Cloak of Shadows, Wall of Thorns, and Stone Skin now impede attempts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



They don't affect Cutthroat? >>

I highly doubt it. It would make sense, but I HIGHLY doubt it.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Fallen
Also, that is part of the problem. You can use this attack in town all the time, and have little chance of killing anyone. You just permanently silence anyone within 10 levels of you if properly trained.

Kill me if you can, thats fine, thats fair. An attack that removes my ability to speak permanently is not. Not with a profession weighted CM roll as the deciding factor.

Let's nerf the spell Silence then as well... as well as make Quake carry the same fine as Tremors does in town.

I believe you are making a mountain out of a mole hill here... as was the general sorcerer outcry after garotte was released.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Fallen
Also, that is part of the problem. You can use this attack in town all the time, and have little chance of killing anyone. You just permanently silence anyone within 10 levels of you if properly trained.

Kill me if you can, thats fine, thats fair. An attack that removes my ability to speak permanently is not. Not with a profession weighted CM roll as the deciding factor.

Just like any pure within 20 levels can stop me moving, indefinately.

[Parkbandit]

The problem Fallen.. is that you see CMs as some special gifts of sorts to the squares. I see them as nothing more than utilities.. much like spells are for pures. Before CMs or guild, we had one thing to do.. hit the target. Pures could incapacitate their target, drop their DS, make them so they couldn't cast spells, kill them from guarded, etc...

This is just a way of catching squares up to pures in my book. Nothing more.

[Fallen]

Let's nerf the spell Silence then as well... as well as make Quake carry the same fine as Tremors does in town.

I believe you are making a mountain out of a mole hill here... as was the general sorcerer outcry after garotte was released. >>

As well as we are evening the Score, I want Mind Jolt to give permanent Nerve damage to my target with a good endroll. Why should the effects just wear off?

Why nerf Silence? You cast the spell, you ward the target, it runs it course, then its done. No scars, no damage, no lingering effects.

Quake....Yeah, well....Yeah.

[Fallen]

The problem Fallen.. is that you see CMs as some special gifts of sorts to the squares. I see them as nothing more than utilities.. much like spells are for pures. Before CMs or guild, we had one thing to do.. hit the target. Pures could incapacitate their target, drop their DS, make them so they couldn't cast spells, kill them from guarded, etc...

This is just a way of catching squares up to pures in my book. Nothing more. >>>

WTF? Your excuse for the CMAN attack system being unbalanced is that you squares had it hard for a time? You are smarter than that. Admit its broken in terms of defensive options.

[Fallen]

Just like any pure within 20 levels can stop me moving, indefinately. >>

Not if your glowing, Stray. You have that option, I dont.

Your trying to tell me a sorcerer 20 levels below you can hit you with a CS spell enough to permanently disable you?

If you mean Implosion, yeah, outside of town, you can ambush me to kingdom come, I can blow you out of your boots if you step out of hiding.

Ambush is strong, but it makes sense. CMAN attacks do not.

[Edited on 11-16-2004 by Fallen]

[StrayRogue]

How is it unbalanced when spells at a much lesser cost to you can create exactly the same effect? Its not unbalanced at all, in my book.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Fallen
Just like any pure within 20 levels can stop me moving, indefinately. >>

Not if your glowing, Stray. You have that option, I dont.

Most rogues can barely gain enough TD to ward like level sorcerers, even with every spell castable on others. Plus, you're saying every rogue hunts with every spell, a massive conjecture. We don't, most don't. And you have ways of stopping me doing this, just as I have ways of stopping you casting at me.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Fallen
The problem Fallen.. is that you see CMs as some special gifts of sorts to the squares. I see them as nothing more than utilities.. much like spells are for pures. Before CMs or guild, we had one thing to do.. hit the target. Pures could incapacitate their target, drop their DS, make them so they couldn't cast spells, kill them from guarded, etc...

This is just a way of catching squares up to pures in my book. Nothing more. >>>

WTF? Your excuse for the CMAN attack system being unbalanced is that you squares had it hard for a time? You are smarter than that. Admit its broken in terms of defensive options.

The difference is Fallen, YOU see the CMAN attack system as being unbalanced.. I do not.

What defensive option do I have against a like level sorcerer?? If I am standing there, poof, one cast at me and they can simply pick me apart at their leisure. That to you is balanced? Come on Fallen, you are smarter than that.

[Fallen]

Most rogues can barely gain enough TD to ward like level sorcerers, even with every spell castable on others. Plus, you're saying every rogue hunts with every spell, a massive conjecture. We don't, most don't. And you have ways of stopping me doing this, just as I have ways of stopping you casting at me. >>

There is NO POSSIBLE WAY a Sorcerer can come close to gaining enough Maneuver defense to ward a like level rogue. Even with every helping spell, it wont even be close. You have a chance, I do not. Especially with CMs like Cutthroat.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Fallen
Your trying to tell me a sorcerer 20 levels below you can hit you with a CS spell enough to permanently disable you?

If you mean Implosion, yeah, outside of town, you can ambush me to kingdom come, I can blow you out of your boots if you step out of hiding.

Ambush is strong, but it makes sense. CMAN attacks do not.

[Edited on 11-16-2004 by Fallen]

You're obviously unaware of the TD issues that squares face. Basically without spells our TD sucks.

And give me one single way that I can survive an implode and I will concede that this new attack is "unstoppable" and unbalanced.

[Fallen]

The difference is Fallen, YOU see the CMAN attack system as being unbalanced.. I do not.

What defensive option do I have against a like level sorcerer?? If I am standing there, poof, one cast at me and they can simply pick me apart at their leisure. That to you is balanced? Come on Fallen, you are smarter than that. >>

Why is it unbalanced?

Falgrin + Defensive spells = Good Defense against CS, and AS.
Evarin + Defensive spells = Still a fucking corpse against maneuvers.

You can get help and lots of it, there is little available for me.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Fallen
Most rogues can barely gain enough TD to ward like level sorcerers, even with every spell castable on others. Plus, you're saying every rogue hunts with every spell, a massive conjecture. We don't, most don't. And you have ways of stopping me doing this, just as I have ways of stopping you casting at me. >>

There is NO POSSIBLE WAY a Sorcerer can come close to gaining enough Maneuver defense to ward a like level rogue. Even with every helping spell, it wont even be close. You have a chance, I do not. Especially with CMs like Cutthroat.

With every spell in the book I cannot avoid 435 or Implode. I was not referring to training, I meant there are always other methods of avoiding both spells and CM's alike.

[Fallen]

And what is Implosion? A maneuver attack. Guess what, people? MANEUVER ATTACKS ARE UNBALANCED. Cast Implosion at a Sorcerer. I bet you he is BLOWN TO SHIT 3 times faster than any square. That armor gives you a chance.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Fallen
The difference is Fallen, YOU see the CMAN attack system as being unbalanced.. I do not.

What defensive option do I have against a like level sorcerer?? If I am standing there, poof, one cast at me and they can simply pick me apart at their leisure. That to you is balanced? Come on Fallen, you are smarter than that. >>

Why is it unbalanced?

Falgrin + Defensive spells = Good Defense against CS, and AS.
Evarin + Defensive spells = Still a fucking corpse against maneuvers.

You can get help and lots of it, there is little available for me.

What level is Evarin? Let's test out your theory.

I'm thinking you can still nail me if you are level 65 and Falgrin has both blues, all guards and a statue.

[Fallen]

Your argument against the CMAN system being unbalanced is Implosion kills people well. Think about that.

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Fallen
And what is Implosion? A maneuver attack. Guess what, people? MANEUVER ATTACKS ARE UNBALANCED. Cast Implosion at a Sorcerer. I bet you he is BLOWN TO SHIT 3 times faster than any square. That armor gives you a chance.

Actually, that armor makes it harder for us to dodge it. Its also not a maneuver attack like Garrote et al. They are maneuvers governed by the Combat Maneuver mechanics. There is a chance of fumble.

I used to think that CMANs were an awful idea. They would unbalance the game and just were a quick fix because squares wanted "spells". I now see it as a system that was implented very well and one that makes sense. Let's face it, levels were always the biggest key when fighting another player. Now, instead of "rub imbed, rub imbed, society, attack" it is replaced with a much more entertaining form of combat.

- Arkans

[StrayRogue]

Yay for a sorcerer who isn't bitching because they aren't the only kids on the block with an "unstoppable" attack, which none of the CMans are anyway. Kudos for Arkans.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Fallen
Not with a profession weighted CM roll as the deciding factor. The CM system is just as weighted towards squares as the CS system is weighted towards pures.

All I can say is you vastly overestimate square TDs. Not to mention every pure has access to a ball spell if they choose, which totally avoids the warrior's chief physical defense (redux/armor).

[StrayRogue]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Fallen
Not with a profession weighted CM roll as the deciding factor. The CM system is just as weighted towards squares as the CS system is weighted towards pures.

All I can say is you vastly overestimate square TDs. Not to mention every pure has access to a ball spell if they choose, which totally avoids the warrior's chief physical defense (redux/armor).

Most pures also have MANY disabling spells and abilities. Squares gain access to few maneuvers at best.

[Trinitis]

I think this argument is going in the wrong direction. Simu don't add things to the game for PvP. GS is not ment to be a PvP game. Try using those uber powerful CMAN skills on like level critters...

[Fallen]

What level is Evarin? Let's test out your theory.

I'm thinking you can still nail me if you are level 65 and Falgrin has both blues, all guards and a statue. >>

40. There is no possible way I could Nail you with a CS spell, especially if you had those easy to gain spells.

[SpunGirl]

Originally posted by LordAdredrin
I think this argument is going in the wrong direction. Simu don't add things to the game for PvP. GS is not ment to be a PvP game. Try using those uber powerful CMAN skills on like level critters...

Adredrin is correct.

-K

[Fallen]

I will state my peace.

Is implosion overpowered? You bet you. Hands down. Overpowered. I will admit that. I am a big boy.

Is the CMAN attack system overpowered? Yes. You may not be able to kill me with one spell like implosion, but you can put me into enough stackable RT where it is the exact same thing.

Its simple, really. You can get 10+ levels of defense against the AS and CS systems without training in any extra skills. Hell, stand in the park for a few minutes and you will soon have 4 hours of defense for free. I understand that At later levels, you can STILL BE HIT BY CS SPELLS with these easy spells.

Do you think it gets any easier for pures against maneuvers at later levels? No, not a chance. They are death when we first meet them, death at level 60, and death at 100.

Is it right to justify further game imbalances by pointing to one unbalanced spell? No.



[Edited on 11-16-2004 by Fallen]

[Fallen]

I think this argument is going in the wrong direction. Simu don't add things to the game for PvP. GS is not ment to be a PvP game. Try using those uber powerful CMAN skills on like level critters... >>

Try using Implosion on some of those like level critters. You will more than likely end up casting the spell 2.3 times per creature to kill it. Thats a fuckload of mana.

[AnticorRifling]

Fallen I am 10 lvls under Falgrin and I can hit him with my CS, no problem. CS is to squares as CMAN is to pures. Live with it. And again if you can't prep a spell pick up a wand. It's not overpowered and it's not meant for players.

I like the CMAN system and I'm glad I have feint, wish I could have a few others but I understand why they limit them and I agree with it even if agreeing means less for me.

[Latrinsorm]

Fallen, that's an odd way of putting things. There are two ways to fix an unbalanced scale: take away weight from the heavy side or put more weight on the light side (or use duct tape). There is an accepted wisdom that Simu favors the "take away" in cases of unbalance (aka OMG WE WUZ NERFED). I for one am pleased that they could very well be strengthening instead of weakening.

edit: Though I do agree with Adredrin's assessment.

[Edited on 11-16-2004 by Latrinsorm]

[Fallen]

Fallen I am 10 lvls under Falgrin and I can hit him with my CS, no problem. CS is to squares as CMAN is to pures. Live with it. And again if you can't prep a spell pick up a wand. It's not overpowered and it's not meant for players. >>

Can you hit him if he has 3-4 spells on him? If so, can you hit him hard enough where he wont kick your ass anyway?

Can he hit you with his attacks? One garrote and your dead.

Reverse the situation. The problem is, he can still hit and kill you ten levels below you with relative ease.

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Fallen
Fallen I am 10 lvls under Falgrin and I can hit him with my CS, no problem. CS is to squares as CMAN is to pures. Live with it. And again if you can't prep a spell pick up a wand. It's not overpowered and it's not meant for players. >>

Can you hit him if he has 3-4 spells on him? If so, can you hit him hard enough where he wont kick your ass anyway?

Can he hit you with his attacks? One garrote and your dead.

Reverse the situation. The problem is, he can still hit and kill you ten levels below you with relative ease.

Yes I can hit him when he has spells on, yes it will be hard enough he's done. Of course he can hit me. And if he's 10 lvls under me he wouldn't kill me with an ambush. I've got too much HP, DS, and decently crit padded leathers.

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Fallen
I think this argument is going in the wrong direction. Simu don't add things to the game for PvP. GS is not ment to be a PvP game. Try using those uber powerful CMAN skills on like level critters... >>

Try using Implosion on some of those like level critters. You will more than likely end up casting the spell 2.3 times per creature to kill it. Thats a fuckload of mana.

Adredrin is a sorcerer.

I don't normally hunt with implode, because I'm rather fond of silvers. But vrs like level (skull temple) I vap the critters 7 out of 10 casts.

CMANs, on the other hand are not near as powerful on creatures as they are on players. My warrior used mblow on another player a few days ago, and pushed their DS down by about 200 points. But when he uses it on a like level creature, they loose about 30 DS. Hence, the system is built for CvM, not CvC.

I feel thats the way the system SHOULD be.

[Fallen]

There are two ways to fix an unbalanced scale: take away weight from the heavy side or put more weight on the light side (or use duct tape). There is an accepted wisdom that Simu favors the "take away" in cases of unbalance (aka OMG WE WUZ NERFED). >>

Laughs. Tell that to sorcerers. Were we overpowered? yep. Did they take that power away quick, fast, and in a hurry, yep. It was justified, too. They went overboard on a few tweaks and have since corrected them.

[Fallen]

I don't normally hunt with implode, because I'm rather fond of silvers. But vrs like level (skull temple) I vap the critters 7 out of 10 casts.>>

Try hunting like that in the Blighted Forest.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Fallen
Fallen I am 10 lvls under Falgrin and I can hit him with my CS, no problem. CS is to squares as CMAN is to pures. Live with it. And again if you can't prep a spell pick up a wand. It's not overpowered and it's not meant for players. >>

Can you hit him if he has 3-4 spells on him? If so, can you hit him hard enough where he wont kick your ass anyway?

Can he hit you with his attacks? One garrote and your dead.

Reverse the situation. The problem is, he can still hit and kill you ten levels below you with relative ease.

You make it sound like I can't kill Anticor with just my blade anyway. Two hits and he's dead. 12 total seconds.

Cman attacks don't replace my regular hunting method, they simply offer me more options that hack and slash. You have still not shown to me that they are overpowered and unbalanced.

[Fallen]

CMANs, on the other hand are not near as powerful on creatures as they are on players. My warrior used mblow on another player a few days ago, and pushed their DS down by about 200 points. But when he uses it on a like level creature, they loose about 30 DS. Hence, the system is built for CvM, not CvC.

I feel thats the way the system SHOULD be. >>

A point your failing to realize is CMAN attacks are used by monsters on players. Hence, it does matter if they are unbalanced towards us.

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Fallen
I don't normally hunt with implode, because I'm rather fond of silvers. But vrs like level (skull temple) I vap the critters 7 out of 10 casts.>>

Try hunting like that in the Blighted Forest.

Hm..where is it? If its not impossible for Adredrin to hunt there, I'll give it a try.

Also, you've got to remember, you can greatly add to your implode with a simple 706 before hand. Knowing your spells is 90% of a sorcerers power.

[Fallen]

You have still not shown to me that they are overpowered and unbalanced.>>

So all of that Spell defense stuff went right over your head?

[Trinitis]

I've yet to see a creature with a CMAN attack. I know Black Forest Ogres have rogues guild skills..which used to bug the piss out of me. But I got around them, 708 ogre r leg. Bam, I won.

:shrug:

[Fallen]

Also, you've got to remember, you can greatly add to your implode with a simple 706 before hand. Knowing your spells is 90% of a sorcerers power. >>

Agreed, however, that is a CS spell, and you wont be warding things over your head too well. Especially in the Forest where everything has maneuvers. Also, that is yet MORE mana per kill.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Fallen
You have still not shown to me that they are overpowered and unbalanced.>>

So all of that Spell defense stuff went right over your head?

I believe that you have not proven your point. I can get all the spells in the game on me that are castable on others.. and a well trained sorcerer of like levels will STILL be able to hit me. We don't even have to count implosion or evil eye if you don't want to.

CMAN to sorcerers is like CS is to squares.

[Fallen]

I've yet to see a creature with a CMAN attack. I know Black Forest Ogres have rogues guild skills..which used to bug the piss out of me. But I got around them, 708 ogre r leg. Bam, I won. >>

That may have been the area I was refering to. Most of the creatures in that area are known to be quite resistant to implosion. Disabling creatures has nothing to do with balanced hunting, however. Kill or be killed is always the name of the game.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Arkans
I used to think that CMANs were an awful idea. They would unbalance the game and just were a quick fix because squares wanted "spells". I now see it as a system that was implented very well and one that makes sense. Let's face it, levels were always the biggest key when fighting another player. Now, instead of "rub imbed, rub imbed, society, attack" it is replaced with a much more entertaining form of combat.

- Arkans I have to agree. Having dueled a like level Warrior just based on his cman-bearhug and my casting strength-spells:706+708. Our attacks were fairly even though I will admit he was about 7 levels over me. He was able to damage me with his manuever and I was able to damage him with my cs. We eventually killed each others characters but it made me realize that Pures will always have an advantage just based on our cast strength over a close in level square. CMAN's help balance it out a bit and adds some entertaining aspects to combat against critters and players alike. For every overpowered CMAN there is an overpowered spell.

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Fallen
Agreed, however, that is a CS spell, and you wont be warding things over your head too well. Especially in the Forest where everything has maneuvers. Also, that is yet MORE mana per kill.

Ohh!! I see, your like most of the Sorcerers I've tried to help out in the past.

Simple solutions :

1. Sorcerers are not ment to hunt everywhere in the game. Just as there are areas Warriors can't hunt.

2. Overhunting is not always as productive as underhunting by 1 or 2 levels. It takes you 2 or 3 more kills, but it costs less mana, and less time.

[Fallen]

I believe that you have not proven your point. I can get all the spells in the game on me that are castable on others.. and a well trained sorcerer of like levels will STILL be able to hit me. We don't even have to count implosion or evil eye if you don't want to.

CMAN to sorcerers is like CS is to squares. >>

Bullshit. You can get all the spells in the game and raise your spell defensive by the equivelant probably 25 levels. Yes, you could still POSSIBLY get hit by a LIKE LEVEL sorcerer.

I can get every Maneuver protection spell in the game, and I will promise you I will be crushed by maneuver attacks as a pure. Hell, 5-9 levels below me and even with those spells I will be probably be hit too.

The difference is the amount of protection you are able to receive. I can get close to none, you can receive Ample. See it now?

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Fallen
Disabling creatures has nothing to do with balanced hunting, however. Kill or be killed is always the name of the game.

This right here is your downfall. At higher levels, this is all you HAVE. take MTK's for example. Once they froth, you either disable them, or die. The AS they can produce is amazing, but they are kittens when they can't move.

Disabling a creature IS the name of the game. You cannot expect to go through life doing one cast, one kill on every creature you come across. You will hate life :(

[Fallen]

Ohh!! I see, your like most of the Sorcerers I've tried to help out in the past.

Simple solutions :

1. Sorcerers are not ment to hunt everywhere in the game. Just as there are areas Warriors can't hunt.

2. Overhunting is not always as productive as underhunting by 1 or 2 levels. It takes you 2 or 3 more kills, but it costs less mana, and less time. >>

I hunt fine. I have been playing for a while and can say with a straight face I am better than the average sorcerer. I will often put my character in a situation where he has a serious disadvantage because its fun. However, at later levels in the came, that becomes more a reality and less of a choice.

No, I am not saying there shouldnt be risks. I am saying I want the same chance to gain defense against CMAN and Maneuver attacks as sqaures get to defend against CS and AS attacks.

IS THAT DEFENSE PERFECT????

NO

I will take it anyway, thank you.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Fallen
I believe that you have not proven your point. I can get all the spells in the game on me that are castable on others.. and a well trained sorcerer of like levels will STILL be able to hit me. We don't even have to count implosion or evil eye if you don't want to.

CMAN to sorcerers is like CS is to squares. >>

Bullshit. You can get all the spells in the game and raise your spell defensive by the equivelant probably 25 levels. Yes, you could still POSSIBLY get hit by a LIKE LEVEL sorcerer.

I can get every Maneuver protection spell in the game, and I will promise you I will be crushed by maneuver attacks as a pure. Hell, 5-9 levels below me and even with those spells I will be probably be hit too.

The difference is the amount of protection you are able to receive. I can get close to none, you can receive Ample. See it now?

Instead of throwing out baseless arguments.. test out your theory. It can't be that hard to find a level 40 rogue that you can spell up completely... because that's how all rogues are all the time :rolleyes:

I've never done any type of experimenting.. but I'm inclined to think that you can ward the rogue about as much as he can hit you with a maneuver.

At level 65, the best I think I have ever gotten Falgrin's TD is maybe 265. Are you about to tell me that a level 65 sorcerer would have a problem warding that?

[crazymage]

anticor destroyed otho with cs spells and they're like level

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by crazymage
anticor destroyed otho with cs spells and they're like level

Yea, but did Otho have every spell in the book on? That is Fallen's premise.

And Anticor certainly isn't trained in CS maximization either.

Dark elf pure spell casting sorcerer of 65 levels = pwned Falgrin with every spell on.

[crazymage]

otho had all elementals

[Meos]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Dark elf pure spell casting sorcerer of 65 levels = pwned Falgrin with every spell on.

I would say you'd probably need a descent roll aswell.. I've had problems with like level fully spelled up rogues.


[Edited on 11-16-2004 by Meos]

[Trinitis]

Then Falgrins argument rings true. If his max TD was 265 at 65. Adredrin would completely pwn him if I got a cast off. I'm only 3 levels above Falgrin and my CS is almost 370.

[Edited on 11-16-2004 by LordAdredrin]

[AlahnnaDenale]

I would just like to note a few things:

1) Sorcerers are not the only pures.

2) As a cleric, any rogue / ranger / bard within 20 trains of me can pwn me, easily, with one command. >hide

3) As a cleric, I have 0 manuever spells.

4) Cmans are overpowered, to me. I have zero way of combating them. I have zero things like them, unless I go the mutant route and have Cmans myself.

5) Any rogue worth his salt can go out and get enough spells on them that I won't be able to ward them reguarly. I can't get Cman defense that even gives me a chance.

6) The only way I can POSSIBLY combat another in PvP is to get the element of surprise - that is, walk up behind them, blast them with something when they aren't expecting it at all. Rogue/Ranger can follow me around 'til their hearts content without my knowing it, leap from hiding and slit my throat, and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it.

To me, as a Pure Cleric, Cmans are incredibly overpowered.

That is all.

[Meos]

Clerics are fucked up, that a discusion for anothe thread though :saint:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by LordAdredrin
Then Falgrins argument rings true. If his max TD was 265 at 65. Adredrin would completely pwn him if I got a cast off. I'm only 3 levels above Falgrin and my CS is almost 370.

[Edited on 11-16-2004 by LordAdredrin]

I'll have to check tonight to be sure.. but that 265 is with all guards and both blues on. It's normally low 200ish.

[Meos]

here we go I think atreau was 65 at this point...

>cas atreau
You gesture at Atreau.
CS: +376 - TD: +267 + CvA: +2 + d100: +82 == +193
Warding failed!
Small flames of yellow and orange hues begin to lick at Atreau. Before long, the flames grow more violent, reaching hungrily up his body. He falls to the ground and the flames engulf him. Black smoke rises in tendrils from the large blaze around Atreau as he burns.

* Atreau drops dead at your feet!

The very powerful look leaves Atreau.
The white light leaves Atreau.
The air about Atreau stops shimmering.
Atreau becomes solid again.
Atreau seems a bit less imposing.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around Atreau.
The dim aura fades from around Atreau.
The deep blue glow leaves Atreau.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding Atreau suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
The light blue glow leaves Atreau.
The powerful look leaves Atreau.
The bright luminescence fades from around Atreau.
Atreau returns to normal color.
Atreau seems to lose some dexterity.
* Atreau drops dead at your feet!


Someone mutters, "Murder by Meos! Call the Dwarven deputy!"


count the spells.

[Trinitis]

Oh most totally. Clerics are SO fucked up right now. I mean, being able to do 250 dmg with 2 mana at level 14 is horribly fucked up ;)

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by AlahnnaDenale
I would just like to note a few things:

1) Sorcerers are not the only pures.

2) As a cleric, any rogue / ranger / bard within 20 trains of me can pwn me, easily, with one command. >hide

3) As a cleric, I have 0 manuever spells.

4) Cmans are overpowered, to me. I have zero way of combating them. I have zero things like them, unless I go the mutant route and have Cmans myself.

5) Any rogue worth his salt can go out and get enough spells on them that I won't be able to ward them reguarly. I can't get Cman defense that even gives me a chance.

6) The only way I can POSSIBLY combat another in PvP is to get the element of surprise - that is, walk up behind them, blast them with something when they aren't expecting it at all. Rogue/Ranger can follow me around 'til their hearts content without my knowing it, leap from hiding and slit my throat, and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it.

To me, as a Pure Cleric, Cmans are incredibly overpowered.

That is all.

1) True

2) Very few bards hide exceptionally well.. and will be forced out when they re-sing their songs. Purely trained clerics can easily become impervious to all by simply rubbing a glass amulet.

3) That is your fault for not training in them.

4) Cmans for clerics are hardly the mutant route. Many clerics swing weapons... and as such should be training in some CM.

5) Again, you are ignorant as to how low a rogue's TD really is.

6) Don't fuck with rogues or rangers then.

[Parkbandit]

What level were you Meos?

[AlahnnaDenale]

Originally posted by LordAdredrin
Oh most totally. Clerics are SO fucked up right now. I mean, being able to do 250 dmg with 2 mana at level 14 is horribly fucked up ;)

That spell is going to be nerfed RSN.

Clerics have NO manuever spells, and according to Uliq, no chance at getting them.

We have TWO bolt spells. One works against Undead, otherwise you're just splashing someone, the other is Fire Spirit - which is nice, but its 906 for 11 mana.

Everything else we have is CS. Smite is about to be nerfed. Fervent Reproach is nice, except you have to charge it. Thats all well and good critter hunting, but in any CvC situation, that charge RT is death. Divine Wrath is..

..useless.

Also, you must consider that Smite/Bane only works against opposing alignments - IE Bane works on living, smite works on Undead.

A smite cleric is a pain in CvC. Unless I get the drop on someone, not much I can do.

[Meos]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
What level were you Meos?

68 it looks like.

[Trinitis]

A smite cleric is a pain in CvC. Unless I get the drop on someone, not much I can do.

Hooray! Someone brings up my point again ;)

Changes are made to GS to ballance the hunting of CREATURES. GS is not ment to be a game of PvP. :)

[AlahnnaDenale]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by AlahnnaDenale
I would just like to note a few things:

1) Sorcerers are not the only pures.

2) As a cleric, any rogue / ranger / bard within 20 trains of me can pwn me, easily, with one command. >hide

3) As a cleric, I have 0 manuever spells.

4) Cmans are overpowered, to me. I have zero way of combating them. I have zero things like them, unless I go the mutant route and have Cmans myself.

5) Any rogue worth his salt can go out and get enough spells on them that I won't be able to ward them reguarly. I can't get Cman defense that even gives me a chance.

6) The only way I can POSSIBLY combat another in PvP is to get the element of surprise - that is, walk up behind them, blast them with something when they aren't expecting it at all. Rogue/Ranger can follow me around 'til their hearts content without my knowing it, leap from hiding and slit my throat, and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it.

To me, as a Pure Cleric, Cmans are incredibly overpowered.

That is all.

1) True

2) Very few bards hide exceptionally well.. and will be forced out when they re-sing their songs. Purely trained clerics can easily become impervious to all by simply rubbing a glass amulet.

3) That is your fault for not training in them.

4) Cmans for clerics are hardly the mutant route. Many clerics swing weapons... and as such should be training in some CM.

5) Again, you are ignorant as to how low a rogue's TD really is.

6) Don't fuck with rogues or rangers then.


2) As can anyone with a little bit of MIU. Why don't you train in it?

3) I can't train in something that I don't have. MiS: 0 Mmanuever spells. MjS: 0 manuever spells. Cleric: 0 manuever spells. Teach me how to train my cleric in the Sorcerer circle and I'll be a happy camper.

4) As Uliq stated, when Paladins are released, Cleric Training Points will be revised to fit more into the "Pure" category. Thusly, training in Cman for a cleric is mutant - much like training in Cman for an Empath, a Sorcerer, or a Wizard.

5) I'll do some tests once I'm done posting this.

6) But they're free to fuck with whomever they want?

[Edited on 11-16-2004 by AlahnnaDenale]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Meos

Originally posted by Parkbandit
What level were you Meos?

68 it looks like.

So basically.. same level. With all those spells on, from THREE full spell circles worth of spells on.. there is almost ZERO chance of him being able to not be hit by you.

Yea.. CMANs are SOOOOOO fucking overpowered.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[DeV]

Originally posted by LordAdredrin
Changes are made to GS to ballance the hunting of CREATURES. GS is not ment to be a game of PvP. :) :yeahthat: :yeahthat: When Simu implements changes to balance the game it's based on creature combat and not against like level characters. Just thought I'd reiterate for ya Adredrin.

[AlahnnaDenale]

Originally posted by LordAdredrin
Changes are made to GS to ballance the hunting of CREATURES. GS is not ment to be a game of PvP. :)

Granted, this is the case, but unless they completely remove the ability to have CvC from the game, they have to balance the game for it as well.

Anything else is just shoddy game design.

[DeV]

But, I don't see that happening. That's not what the game is based on. They will balance it for critters because killing critters is the only way to advance and gain experience. When they balance the game for CvC they need to them make it so experience is gained that way as well. Do you see that happening?

[Parkbandit]

Sorry AlahnnaDenale, I misread #3 wrong. I thought you were complaining again how you didn't have any maneuvers.

And there is a great copy of a log here of a level 65 ranger vs a level 68 pure. As you can see, with all the spells on that are possible to help him, he had no chance of not getting hit by the pure.

Now.. take off all those spells that the rogue cannot cast himself and you have more of a realistic picture. (Someone check my math.. because I'm not sure if I calculated the spells TD benefit right)


CS: +376 - TD: +187 + CvA: +2 + d100: +1 == +192

Like level.. there is NO CHANCE the rogue can prevent being warded unless the resulting d100 roll is a fumble. And it's not like an end roll of 101 or 102.. it's 192, which for many spells has a fatal outcome.

Again, to reiterate my point.. CMAN system is no more overpowered than the CS system.

Edited to add that I will always assume a non-magical rogue.. since that is what I play.

[Edited on 11-16-2004 by Parkbandit]

[Trinitis]

Just because Simu allows for CvC conflict does not mean they must support it.

Anyone can kill anyone..its a fact of GS.

Its just as easy for me to quietly walk into the room, blast Falgrin with a 706, then pick him clean appart with what ever I want, as it is for him to quietly walk into a room and necklace me.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by LordAdredrin
Its just as easy for me to quietly walk into the room, blast Falgrin with a 706...

You wouldn't do that.. would you?

:no:

[Trinitis]

Hehe, actually, Adredrin finds Falgrin amusing. He is of little concern to Adredrin personally, because I keep all containers closed (or empty) and very little silver on me. If you take the 50 or so silver I got, yay for you. ;)

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by LordAdredrin
Hehe, actually, Adredrin finds Falgrin amusing. He is of little concern to Adredrin personally, because I keep all containers closed (or empty) and very little silver on me. If you take the 50 or so silver I got, yay for you. ;)

You know I can find out how much Falgrin has taken from you over the years.. right?

I'm certain that you have gained Falgrin's respect.. and thus are not considered ignorant in his eyes. You are safe.

For now. :smug:

[Stunseed]

Because you all passed me off like I was ignored....

It's so powerful it should be given to Rangers. I can hamstring you, but I can't slit your throat Columbian style?

[Trinitis]

Heh, by all means, go ahead. But remember, Adredrin has only been mine for about 3 years now ;) Anything before then don't count!

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Stunseed
Because you all passed me off like I was ignored....

It's so powerful it should be given to Rangers. I can hamstring you, but I can't slit your throat Columbian style?

No. Slitting someone's throat is SO a rogue skill.

Rangers < Rogues. Once you understand and realize this.. the better off you will be.

Now I need to drop groin kick to get this skill.

[Stunseed]

You play a ranger as well, PB....Please don't tell me you're accepting of the lack of cman's on the table for them.

[StrayRogue]

Fallen, you do not understand the combat mechanics. There is a HUGE difference between maneuver attacks and CM attacks. A huge difference, hundreds of factors, not to mention a compulsory 5% critical fumble chance no matter what. If you have to hunt the forest with only FI it just goes to show how much of an uncreative hunter and stereotypical boring "hit the FI macro" sorcerer you are. It also merely reinforces the whole "wah, they've got something thats akin to our ability" argument.

3-4 casts of FI is nothing. I can use a maneuver in combat TWICE. Then my muscles pop. CMans are meant to augment hunting, to give it a unique flavour tailored by the players style and tastes. We don't need them and comparing them directly to spells is like comparing apples to oranges.

However Adredrin was correct. This is a CvC game and not PvP. Critters don't use the CML at the moment.

[Drew]

On all CMs there is a 5% chance of fumble, there is only a 1% chance with sorcerer abilities. CvC remains, as always, a first shot enviroment.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Stunseed
You play a ranger as well, PB....Please don't tell me you're accepting of the lack of cman's on the table for them.

As a ranged ranger.. yes. I do not have the tps to train effectively in ranged weapons/perception/ambush/spells and have left over points for CMs.

To me, a ranger is the best of both worlds.. the skill to use a blade very effectively plus spells. True squares have bbut one skill to use to hunt.

I have no problem with playing my ranger at all. He's my 2nd favorite character.

[Drew]

The only manuever I wish rangers had was stunmans. Give us that and drop everything other than cfocus and I'll be fine.

[AnticorRifling]

Couple of things.

First someone metioned the cleric spell that you have to charge as no good for CvC.... It's called having a battle plan. If it's a pure just bind, or stun his/her gimp ass and charge it in front of their face while taunting them then smoke them.

It's not overpowered this argument seems to me more of the "I want everyone in GS to be the same." Different professions, different skills, different strengths and weakness. I can't slit your throat but I can call wind and then beat the shit out of you with haste. I can't raise the dead but I can enchant, I can't implode but I can call wind and then beat the shit out of you with haste :cool:

Game balance is getting everyone to bitch equally <-- one of my favorite quotes from some unknown source but it's classic.

Understand that every profession is going to be better at something than every other profession. You want that skill then roll up another character.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Fallen
Laughs. Tell that to sorcerers. Were we overpowered? yep. Did they take that power away quick, fast, and in a hurry, yep. It was justified, too. They went overboard on a few tweaks and have since corrected them. I'm just going by what you said, dude. You said implosion is overpowered, so I'm going with it. I only have one char.
Originally posted by Stunseed
Because you all passed me off like I was ignored.... Who let the ranger out of his cage? ;)
Originally posted by AnticorRifling
Game balance is getting everyone to bitch equally Going by the official boards, I'd say we've got some quality balance right now. :yes:

[Edited on 11-16-2004 by Latrinsorm]

[CrystalTears]

I :heart: Anticor cause he's so right.

[Parkbandit]

Are the officials going crazy due to this one CM?

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Are the officials going crazy due to this one CM? I wouldn't know, I haven't checked in a few days. They (representatives of every class) are always bitching about something, though. I know this is biased, but the warriors bitch the least, probably because we're used to the Man sticking it to us. (The fact that I've only been playing a warrior for about a year is so not relevant.)

[Drew]

Classes that bitch the least: Warriors, rangers

Classes that bitch the most: Sorcerers, rogues

Classes that bitch a lot but no one really cares: empaths, clerics

Classes that can whine a lot, but aren't always doing it: wizards, bards




This is overall. I realize right now clerics are going crazy, but in my time I've definately seen sorcs and rogue complain more than every other class combined.

As a seasoned warrior the only thing that I have to currently bitch about was critters being able to spell themselves back up with mage sphere, especially certain critters that use up two feints and a tackle, and still are pretty much impervious to attack because of this added bonus.

As far as CMs go, I don't use them while hunting or any other uses for that matter; old school ambushing still works wonders and I'm glad they haven't added a stamina penalty to that.

My feint and tackle are (+13?) Guild Master improved, and wtrick sattack is pretty useless as untargetted for a specific body part.

Eh, mastering wtricks and tackle is worth spoonfuls of redemption.

[Stunseed]

< Who let the ranger out of his cage? >

I just pasted my post from page 3, where no one answered.

< To me, a ranger is the best of both worlds.. the skill to use a blade VERY effectively plus spells. >

I'm glad we both have the same viewpoint. A ranger has the ability to become magic-heavy ( that means Drew :smug: ) , however there is in my opinion not enough draw towards the physical side of a class that's 50/50 ( or there abouts ). I'm just a man lookin for a little equality.

[CrystalTears]

I disagree about some of the complaining. I see rangers complain more than rogues. All the other ones I do agree with, though. :)

[Warclaidhm]

Ok, after reading a few pages (I don't have the time or want to read the all 6 pages), the following is my opinion:

I seriously don't understand why rogues are getting all of this.

After being a warrior for over 3 years, I think warriors are the weakest profession.

Sure, you have all these manuevers, but if you're after some idiot who killed you who is 10 trains above you, you got no chance.

Here's a few examples:

1) Can't use bearhug, since they are too old for it to work.
2) Can't use cman staggering blow, but ONLY if you hit them. Thing is, you probably couldn't with 400 + AS since their DS is so jacked up with spells.
3) You could try mighty blow, which would lower their DS, but then again it might not work. (They could parry it, or it could miss them outright because your AS isn't high enough)


But professions like sorcerors, with implode, is incredibly lame. Look, I'm 43 trains. So some idiot who is 35 trains comes to me (I think his name was Lycain) whoever it was, it was a sorceroer, implodes me like 6 times rapidly (after doing minor damage) and then it boils my eyes and kills me instantly.

We warriors have NO CHANCE of anything like this, its all physical.

Now rogues are getting it.

Rogues have garrote, and it annoys the SHIT out of me when Falgrin can use it, and I die so fast. At least I can berserk out of that.

Now with cutthroat, I'm fucked. I can't warcry; since I'll be silenced.

I'll be stunned, bleeding, probably webbed (Since some other jackass would web me), and either bleed to death, and/or die later from that lame ass manuever.

Does anyone here agree with my viewpoint?

I seriously am going to switch to paladin, I don't see the point of warriors anymore.

Yes, I've heard many viewpoints. I've heard that this manuever is only mean't for critters, not for PvP, blah blah blah.

Well, Warclaidhm is very CvP himself, sometimes PvP.

He tends to have people attack him, and yes sometimes it is provoked, mainly because I say something dumb like "Your an idiot" and someone attacks me. So I'd just like to be able to defend myself, thus why I want to be a paladin.

Plus, I won't be able to hide anymore soon, since they're nerfing full plate and I can wear full plate now with no hinderences.

[Fallen]

Deaf ears, Warclaidh, Deaf ears.

[Latrinsorm]

Saying warriors are the weakest profession is like saying the handaxe is the strongest pure OHE. There are glaring weaknesses inherent in the warrior profession. There are weaknesses similar in magnitude in every other profession (HENCE THIS THREAD). Finally, I'll leave you with some crustacean words of wisdom: "The seaweed is always greener in somebody else's lake."

Again as a warrior, guild feint and tackle work fine for critters. I'm not looking for a fight. Shit, I am fully trained in subdual strike for crying out loud! :lol:

[Trinitis]

Warclaidhm :
After being a warrior for over 3 years, I think warriors are the weakest profession.


This right here prooves you have no idea what your talking about.

[Edited on 11-16-2004 by LordAdredrin]

[Fallen]

Weakest profession? Clerics, probably. I have not been keeping up with Bards much lately. Clerics arent all that bad off, but they are certainly behind the curve.

[Trinitis]

Speaking CvM, empaths are the weakest IMO. If your counting self spells only, no outside help.

[Nakiro]

Empaths would be much better if they had a mass untargeted disabling spell, such as ewave.

[Fallen]

Empaths would be much better if they had a mass untargeted disabling spell, such as ewave. >>

They do pretty well as it is. I hunt with one and with the inclusion of that new weird ass bolt spell, they can kill just about anything they come up against like level with little difficulty.

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Fallen
They do pretty well as it is. I hunt with one and with the inclusion of that new weird ass bolt spell, they can kill just about anything they come up against like level with little difficulty.

Right up till they get pwned from a hit. Empaths have a bad time with DS, self cast only.

[Drew]

Bards are the strongest class CvC and probably strongest CvM IMO.

[Warclaidhm]

Originally posted by LordAdredrin
Speaking CvM, empaths are the weakest IMO. If your counting self spells only, no outside help.

How's that? They can heal themselfs..

[Parkbandit]

Oh Christ Warclaidhm.. boo fucking hoo. I'm surprised you didn't complain that Warriors don't have the spell wizard strength in their circle.

Do yourself a favor and look up the CMs that are available to warriors. After you read this list.. feel free to post how stupid you are. Thanks.

[Trinitis]

Originally posted by Warclaidhm
How's that? They can heal themselfs..

Your kidding...right?

Yep, healing yourself is a WONDERFUL asset to have while your stunned for 6 rounds, on the ground with your leg chopped off. Yep, My empath lives from that all the time!

[Fallen]

Empath has Empathy and Empathic dispel. Nasty combination.

[StrayRogue]

Warclaidhm, stop pretending like you know anything about Game Balance as its clear that you don't.

Whomever said Rogues bitch the most obviously doesn't read the rogue boards, or rather just reads Nodyre and Midgar's drivel.

As for clerics, my own has had 0 problems. In fact had it not been for him and him alone I would estimate that teras would have fallen to the invasion the other night. Good offensive abilities, fantastic defenses across the board and a decent method of alternative experience.

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Warclaidhm

After being a warrior for over 3 years, I think warriors are the weakest profession.

Sure, you have all these manuevers, but if you're after some idiot who killed you who is 10 trains above you, you got no chance.



The only reason you do not think warriors are powerful is because you, Haasham and Vif are the worst warriors ever.

First thing you need to realize is that once you reach a certain age it is first strike wins the duel regardless of profession.

Do not sleep in the open. never wear armor you are not fully trained for, never become encumbered.

Voln Fu works very very well.

Dont be afraid to locker your stuff and kill people in town

Like I said before you want respect. earn it.

[Caiylania]

I <3 being a warrior.

I feel dumb reading this thread and not knowing game mechanics to that extreme.

Then I realize.... I don't care, I have fun in GS! Screw mechanics! Dirtkick is fun ;)

[StrayRogue]

Becoming a paladin will make things worse, you realize War. They'll have less DS, less redux and only one, high level spell that will be able to break stuns/webs etc. Personally any semi is never going to be as powerful as any Square/Pure, except way post cap.

All professions can solo through the whole game. Isn't that and having all that matters?

- Arkans

[Janarth]

Originally posted by AnticorRifling

Because we can't wave wands or in my case swing a weapon?

People need to realize that every profession has more than one way to hunt and if you think removing a casters ability to cast is insta death you're mistaken. You have to be more dynamic than that if you hope to survive.

Ah, yes, some pures swing a weapon pretty well, and wizards can wave wands. That said, in CvC, you gonna risk the loss in defense to use a wand? Or swing a weapon nearly as lethally as your spells? I'll let the rogues cut my throat, if they let me take off their weapon arm first, then I'll swing at them with my paltry AS and parrying weapon while they attempt to hit me with wizard spells invoked from scrolls using their negligible spell aiming. It will be fun!

[Edaarin]

Sigh.

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Janarth

Originally posted by AnticorRifling

Because we can't wave wands or in my case swing a weapon?

People need to realize that every profession has more than one way to hunt and if you think removing a casters ability to cast is insta death you're mistaken. You have to be more dynamic than that if you hope to survive.

Ah, yes, some pures swing a weapon pretty well, and wizards can wave wands. That said, in CvC, you gonna risk the loss in defense to use a wand? Or swing a weapon nearly as lethally as your spells? I'll let the rogues cut my throat, if they let me take off their weapon arm first, then I'll swing at them with my paltry AS and parrying weapon while they attempt to hit me with wizard spells invoked from scrolls using their negligible spell aiming. It will be fun!

I don't know about other wizards but I keep imbeds of most of my utility spells just incase I need them. So if I get hit with cutthroat it's tap whatever to become inviso and then I'll figure out what I'm doing from there. Plus the fact that my swing is still higher than my bolt.

[Asha]

There were no healers at the dais once. A rogue thought it woul be fun to do it to me and I was fucked.

Couldn't ask to be healed.
Coudln't buy herbs.

Matter of time till I died.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Drayal
There were no healers at the dais once. A rogue thought it woul be fun to do it to me and I was fucked.

Couldn't ask to be healed.
Coudln't buy herbs.

Matter of time till I died.

Sorry, if you are dying from that, then you suck at Gemstone.

[AnticorRifling]

Sign of staunch....

[Parkbandit]

Well, not everyone is EVIL LIKE ANTICOR IS!!!

But Voln has healing abilities... and fuck, ever hear of carrying around some emergency herbs or potions?

Like I said.. if that is how you died because you couldn't talk.. you lose so hard at Gemstone.

[AnticorRifling]

I don't think you can order herbs because well you can't speak. So unless you're carrying around whatever herb/potion you need in order to take down a neck bleeder it could potentially cause a problem. But like I said sign of staunch is all you need :cool:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
I don't think you can order herbs because well you can't speak. So unless you're carrying around whatever herb/potion you need in order to take down a neck bleeder it could potentially cause a problem. But like I said sign of staunch is all you need :cool:

Yea.. I'm not saying that you should be all like "Well, I'm bleeding and cannot talk right now.. what should I do?"

But if you are not in Voln and not in COL.. then GOD DAMN, why wouldn't you already have a sizable supply of some fucking herbs that you could use in situations like that?

[Asha]

Firstly , sign of staunching would reduce me to wandering around unable to play my favourite game which is Gemstone 4 . it is the best of fun times to plays.

And secondly , I'm not going to carry herbs around just incase some rogue fuck decides to type ' Fuck sorcerer '.

Dwarves have tiny dicks.
:2beers:

[AnticorRifling]

So you're saying you don't know how to grimace, act, beg, etc?

[Asha]

I'm betting if I ACTed in any way . .
eg. Drawing the words 'heal me' in the dirt, It would pop up in the complaints folder.

Anyhow, RP leads to rogue character getting angry and doing it again.

Why would it?

- Arkans

[Asha]

RPing ignoring a guy who picks on players all the time, attracted his attention and then he slit my characters throat a few times.

I can imagine some fuck who wanted my character to die (from not having herbs) in a way that would be totally legal for him, being very pissed off when I use ACT to get help.
Good grief man, he might even say it's mechanics abuse!
::gasp::

[AnticorRifling]

As long as you don't act writing in the dirt or any such thing.

act grabs his neck trying to apply enough pressure to keep his life's blood from leaking out the slit across his gullet.

I don't see that as mech abuse at all.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Drayal
Firstly , sign of staunching would reduce me to wandering around unable to play my favourite game which is Gemstone 4 . it is the best of fun times to plays.

God damn, did X write that for you because I sure as hell didn't understand it. How the fuck would using the sign of staunching reduce your ability to wander around unable to play? You sure you don't live in Canada?



Originally posted by Drayal
And secondly , I'm not going to carry herbs around just incase some rogue fuck decides to type ' Fuck sorcerer '.

Dear Dumbass.. you don't carry the herbs around for any other reason than saving your life. Period.


Originally posted by Drayal
Dwarves have tiny dicks.
:2beers:

Good thing I'm not a dwarf nor had any homosexual experience with a dwarf. Good to know you have though.

[Alfster]

or just use the verb beg heal

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Alfster
or just use the verb beg heal

HE CAN'T BECAUSE THAT WOULD REDUCE HIM TO WANDERING AROUND UNABLE TO PLAY HIS FAVOURITE GAME WHICH IS GEMSTONE 4. IT IS THE BEST OF FUN TIMES TO PLAY.

[Alfster]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Alfster
or just use the verb beg heal

HE CAN'T BECAUSE THAT WOULD REDUCE HIM TO WANDERING AROUND UNABLE TO PLAY HIS FAVOURITE GAME WHICH IS GEMSTONE 4. IT IS THE BEST OF FUN TIMES TO PLAY.

Oh shit, my bad.

On topic though, cut throat is fun to use against any caster.

[Asha]

PB, Sometimes posting in a childish manner, spelling things as though I'm a 7 and a half year old turkish boy can be fun and moderately amusing.

I didn't realise you were such a cock.

[Asha]

Oh yeah I remember why I wasn't healed now . .
The healer was Violentmoon and I think she sucks dick.

PB, seriously . . you're being a [edited].

[Edited on 4-1-2005 by Drayal]

[hectomaner]

Originally posted by Drayal
Oh yeah I remember why I wasn't healed now . .
The healer was Violentmoon and I think she sucks dick.

PB, seriously . . you're being a [edited].

[Edited on 4-1-2005 by Drayal]


OH NOEZ!!! heaven forbid a woman put a pp in her mouth and suck it?!!!

i mean, that is the purpose of women right? or are you too young to have figured that out yet?

[Edited on 4-1-2005 by hectomaner]

ROFL

Pip?

Nice PWN tho.

- Arkans

[Asha]

Obviously the expanse of ocean between us has prevented Northern English slang from being understood.
'Sucks dick' is a way of saying 'very shit'.

Oh, and are you too young to realise the purpose of women is to cook.
Shit head.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Drayal
PB, Sometimes posting in a childish manner, spelling things as though I'm a 7 and a half year old turkish boy can be fun and moderately amusing.

I didn't realise you were such a cock.

I am sorry I hurt your feelings. I am sorry you suck at Gemstone. I am sorry you were bullied by a big bad rogue. I know rogues are scary. Bad rogue go away. You are safe now.

[hectomaner]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I am sorry I hurt your feelings. I am sorry you suck at Gemstone. I am sorry you were bullied by a big bad rogue. I know rogues are scary. Bad rogue go away. You are safe now.

:lol2: :lol2:

[Asha]

That fucking does it!

My dogs next vet bill will be your fault . .
I'll feel better in a minute.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Drayal
That fucking does it!

My dogs next vet bill will be your fault . .
I'll feel better in a minute.

LOL.

I hope you at LEAST yelled out my name and maybe a curse word or two before you kicked your dog across the room.

[Asha]

:lol:

If by 'across the room' you meant 'out the window'. .
You'd be right!

[Gibreficul]

I'm sick of hearing pures whine and moan about cmans. You can train for them too... it's costly, but possible. Rogues train in spells, some rogues have upwards of 30 spells, OR MORE. (Nodyre can rescue fog, Tsin knows elemental targeting) Now for my rants...

SORCERERS, you can all rot... not only do you have the most overpowered spells in the game, you also have the ability to embed them, meaning, you rub, tap, raise, wave, whatever... you got a spell. Everyone knows embeddables are a dime a dozen. Oh, and lemme mention this... you aren't effected by encumberance nearly as much as a square is.. we get a box or 2 on us, our already INSANE roundtimes go up, your cast times stay at 3 seconds. more on this later

WIZARDS let's see here, can't cast, grab an embed, or a wand. simple solution. I don't have nearly as much hatred toward wizards as I do sorcs, but it's there. You get 2 spell circles to yourselves... invisibility, enchanting, rapid-fire, all the bolt spells you could ever want, ect. Encumberance... not an issue, especially with your DISKS...

CLERICS nothin but love for em. You should be raising the dead, not engaging in PvP. Clerics seem to be a dieing breed too, with paladin conversion. If someone is messing with you, cutthroat or otherwise, shame on them if they die. Also, clerics, in my opinion, are the least pure of the pures... more of a pure/semi hybrid until the changes. Still, you have CS based spells, namely unbalance, bind, web, ect... I'm leaving out bane/smite, because for PvP, Smite is useless, and I've never played a bane cleric, so I'm not too knowlegable. You do have the opportunity to have a nice bolt attack in 111, and the ability to swing well with 307/211/215 bonuses. If you are a runestaff smite cleric with no spell aiming, engaging in PvP, SHAME ON YOU... I just started plaing with holy recepticle, but I'm sure you can put some useful spells in gems to help against a square, namely rogues with cutthroat ability.

EMPATHS now who is gunna mess with the innocent lil empaths, who can shatter yer bones... What I like most about cutthroat is that even empath circle is shut down by it... but like any good empath, you should have some herbs, JUST IN CASE. enough said there

OK, now for my point... Rogues are SQUARES, and a very diverse group. Split between war rogues, locksmith rogues, magical rogues, and the list goes on... lots of training options, and not all rogues train in cutthroat. I play a LOCKSMITH rogue, meaning my combat skills are very limited compared to a war-rogue. I also have some spells. So, with my 1x CM, at train 60something, I have 5 ranks of shadow mastery, 5 ranks of cutthroat, and a rank or 2 in surge of strength, plus guild skills. now, if I were going to fight a pure, what's my first attack... cutthroat... but assuming a successful attempt, that'll take say, 20 HP, and give a 4 per bleeder, and cost me a 5 sec RT, plus some stamina. Pretty weak if you ask me. now I have to hide again, 2 seconds (cause of shadow mastery) and ambush, 4-6+ seconds, depending on if I use a dagger, or a "real" weapon and potential encumberance. i'm up to 6-8 seconds for 1 attack. In that time, a sorc can get off 2 casts of whatever, a wizard with rapid fire can get a lot more casts of something in. Or, since you've been sliced, activate a magic item, or get a wand out, or whatever pures do...

You want balance? now that there is a counter to the dominance of spell casters, you seem to feel it's unfair. I carry 2 boxes on me, my encumberance goes up, along with RT. Pures aren't effected by this, I know, I pick their boxes, 8-10 at a time for 1 sorc/cleric/wizard. I use a disk, I get 4 or 5 boxes, I have to go in... 10 seconds in offensive is potentially tragic...

Now, how do you, as a pure, prevent a cutthroat... well, have some aloes stem. One bite, it's cured... that being said, is it still overpowered? how about BEG HEAL NECK? OOH, staunching... the list goes on. whoever said it's insta-death really hasn't thought it out. One more thing, I'm glad there is finally a balance to counter a pure, even as a fairly weak rogue with a whole lot of locksmithin skill, now I have a chance against a pure. EVERYTHING IS A TRADEOFF IN GEMSTONE. I've said too much already, and I'll leave it at that.

[Asha]

It's just another wonderful way for a 13 year old snert to get his 70+ lvlz character to fuck a peace loving ME.

Anyhow , don't worry. I created a script to deal with it.
So the next time it happens , I sit back and relax after typing .Fuckyou.

[Fallen]

Squares can't pull you out of invisibility. Just rub that amulet, heal up, and de-limb them at will.

[Warriorbird]

More unbalance.

:chuckles:

Want to know the real secret? The unbalancing shit is what makes GS fun. I doubt many people will ever understand that though.

[Asha]

Whoever said it's a war between who can press enter first was partially right.
The real trick is to hit them before they even realise PvP/CvC is coming.
Fuck Roleplay.

[Letum]

Tsin knows major ewave too. The ass uses it in invasions.

[Xcalibur]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Drayal
Firstly , sign of staunching would reduce me to wandering around unable to play my favourite game which is Gemstone 4 . it is the best of fun times to plays.

God damn, did X write that for you because I sure as hell didn't understand it. How the fuck would using the sign of staunching reduce your ability to wander around unable to play? You sure you don't live in Canada?


Fuck you, He and I share something in common: We don't like in that cold nightmare

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Xcalibur

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Drayal
Firstly , sign of staunching would reduce me to wandering around unable to play my favourite game which is Gemstone 4 . it is the best of fun times to plays.

God damn, did X write that for you because I sure as hell didn't understand it. How the fuck would using the sign of staunching reduce your ability to wander around unable to play? You sure you don't live in Canada?


Fuck you, He and I share something in common: We don't like in that cold nightmare

Glad you took the time to completely clear that up.

:duh:

[Andrew]

wow, 8 pages later...

As a developer of a gameless trpg engine I come with a different paradigm with regards to this cutt throat CM. After reading 8 pages of profession use perspectives, I think I get the jist.

Balance is such a critical element to gemstone, however, refering to it as an element is somewhat of a misnomer. Balance is not about keeping numbers within limits. It is about envisioning the possibilities which you want to have and the impossibilities which you want not to have; IN CHARACTER! Twinking / nerfing / whatever you want to call the brute force methods of stopping things you dont want happening from happening or it's converse are not what should be done. The formulae being debated here and representations of an envisioned reality. blaa blaa blaa you all should get the jist of the thoughts I've trying to raise here.

Onward then...
There are are a few "common" philosophies known to me as to how a fantasy world should work and the one I am most experienced in the forgotten realms which has had signifigant influence on contemporary MMOs. This topic is quite broad, but a key aspect to this debate is godllike characters. If you have the time, learn how major rpgs have dealt with, or attempted to deal with, godlike characters. I won't do a compare contrast sort of thing in favor of sticking to how godlike characters fare in Elanthia.
First, I think it is necessary describe what we all think should be possible in Elanthia. Forget about your notions of "thats not fair". Based upon the fantasy world, is it feasible? How accesable is a dark elf's neck clothed in unenchanted regular clothes? What about the necks of the other races? What does enchanting do to clothes? I mean really, this one is important. Do the clothes become intelligent and able to sense a sword comming at them and harden at the right moment? To some extend these things are left to the imagination of the players, but if the player's imagination is too contradictory to the imagination of the creator of the fantasy realm, then the player will be disapointed or confused and the first place players look for resolve are the numbers. The numbers serve to make things possible and impossible. Dice rolls serve to simulate risk. When a player contests a formula, progression rate, or distribution in the game mechanics, I see the root of the disagreement as a fundamental disagreement upon what should be possible/impossible and risky/not risky. But it must be understood that each little equation or any other number pattern for that matter is designed around a discrete set of things involving posibility, risk, or both.

In many arguments amoung players about these matters (like this thread for example), it is the use of implicit assumption that cause people to misdeliver their point. Since the formulas and mechanics of CMs and spells are representations of what the designers think should be (im)possible/(not)risky, as players, we need to figure out what the designers had in mind, rather than go off of a series of personal assumptions about how Elanthia "really" is. Can a 30th level rogue with 5 ranks in cutt throat be lurking in the shadows and have it be possible with little risk of failure to slice the vocal cords out of the next 95th level Sorceror that walks by? Whether it is or isn't, as players we must figure out what the designers think by evaluating the mechanics.

So regarding the actual gemstone 4 game...
It doesn't seem to be the aim of the designers to make cutt throat strictly without fantasy. A 95th level dark elven sorc is, after all, just an older elf, which, realisticly, would be easier to cutt down than a younger one. So there is some element of Elanthia that the designers are trying to convey that makes it impossible for our rogue to cutt down our sorceror and the first reason that shows itself is, like I said before, is the formula result. Our rogue may roll a 95 and yet not come close to succeeding. We are inclined to assume the reason is level. Hell, we may even know the formula completely and see, in numbers, how (im)possible or (not)risky it would be to attempt such a thing.

I'm not going to try and make an argument in favor or against any particular game mechanism mentioned on this thread because I don't have enough research on them. In fact when I'm in character, I tend to try and remember things that can be done, not by numbers, but by past trial and error regarding whether or not the actions were (im)possible or (not)risky.

ok, i've bored myself, onto other things...

[Edited on 11-14-2005 by Andrew]

[Asha]

Omfg that was the most shit bump ever.

[Warriorbird]

Really strange.

[Daniel]

8 years later and still no one gives a fuck.

[Heshinar]

What the hell lets outlaw PVP and CVC.. that way none of this shit matters.

[Warriorbird]

Gemstone: The Kingdom Hearts edition.

[Janarth]

Originally posted by Gibreficul
Gib's rant


I'll take this one at a time. Most overpowered spellS in the game? Name the others please :p Yes, Implosion is fairly powerful, but there is a trade off, no treasure. And what do you expect from a profession defining spell? In PVP, its just like feint/cutthroat, etc. Whoever acts first usually wins. You feint me, I'm gonna die. I cast first, you're gonna die.

Imbeds...ah, where to start? The more crap (imbeds) I carry, the more I'm susceptible to my already worst area of defense, manuevers! Also, having a wand in my hand pretty much scraps my second worst area of defense, physical DS! Unless I am a pansy runestaff user, in which case stop complaining...disarm and I'm dead anyway. As for the RT issue, your stats are just poorly placed. I know there are some giantmen out there who can carry 2 boxes and not experience any additional roundtime.

Clerics....HAHA. No cleric has a decent physical AS. I don't want to hear that. The gap between being able to single weapon skill vs double it is too big towards the top end to be balanced out by the +60? AS they get from 307/211/215, not to mention the CM issue. And clerics should not only be raising anymore then you exist to pick MY boxes. So STFU with that. Just like not all rogues pick, not all clerics are vulture raisers.

Of all your rants, I say the one against wizards rings the most true, but even the "enchanting is a cash cow argument" is out the window compared to Rangers with their resistance, so STFU again.

You were right on one point, there is balance in PVP. Its based on whoever acts first, and with a minimal amount of thought, wins. That said, I think cutthroat is fine, though I wish we had mor empirical evidence to see what factors into noticing/escaping. I too would like to see aventails make it much harder to cutthroat someone. As a 1x in perception pure, with 402 up, I also don't think any rogue under my training should be cutthroating me very much. Besides, you have such other fun ways to kill me. Lets see...you feint me, then ambush me. You could sweep me, then ambush me...You could subdue me, then ambush me. Switch swing from the open vs ambush whenever you want, etc.

Originally posted by Janarth

And what do you expect from a profession defining spell? In PVP, its just like feint/cutthroat, etc. Whoever acts first usually wins. You feint me, I'm gonna die. I cast first, you're gonna die.


Bullshit. Until the end of time there will always be a sorceror that can't confront the truth. :D

Implosion is THE most overpowered focused spell in the game. There is no other attack/spell with better success rates against a like-leveled player.

CMAN's have an inherent 5% fumble rate.

I don't have a problem with implosion, but to say it's not grossly overpowered (for PvP) is just deluding yourself.

[Janarth]

Originally posted by Tea & Strumpets

Originally posted by Janarth

And what do you expect from a profession defining spell? In PVP, its just like feint/cutthroat, etc. Whoever acts first usually wins. You feint me, I'm gonna die. I cast first, you're gonna die.


Bullshit. Until the end of time there will always be a sorceror that can't confront the truth. :D

Implosion is THE most overpowered focused spell in the game. There is no other attack/spell with better success rates against a like-leveled player.

CMAN's have an inherent 5% fumble rate.

I don't have a problem with implosion, but to say it's not grossly overpowered (for PvP) is just deluding yourself.

And feint is not grossly overpowered for PvP? Pures don't have a chance when feinted by a like level competent square. Anticor, even with your uber physical skills (for a wizard), can you take a like level feint without going to offensive and a buncha rt? At least Implosion is in character. Read the website, Masters of Destruction. And while not a direct damage spell, I'd argue 916 is the king of PvP...

I like things where they are. I was actually against the primary poster's opinion, but didn't want to see people overreact and go to far back the other way and say pures are overpowered (hence my reply to Gib's post, no hard feelings).

[Warriorbird]

Implosion is THE most overpowered focused spell in the game. There is no other attack/spell with better success rates against a like-leveled player.

Gosh. Something even I can agree with T+S over.

Open is even more powerful, being the most overpowered attack in the entire game.

[Asha]

Oh don't worry, they'll nerf it sooner or later.
Then Sorcs will officially be the shittiest PvP like level profession ever.

Well, after Clerics.. and Empaths since we're talking like leveled.

[Czeska]

A properly trained empath is hardly shitty for like level PvP.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Janarth
As a 1x in perception pure, with 402 up, I also don't think any rogue under my training should be cutthroating me very much.Ok, if my warrior can 1x in harness power and completely neutralize implosion's affects.

Let me read to you from the Book of Spiegel:

"You're not a chameleon you know, you can't see everywhere at once."

[Asha]

I can't think of anything a like level Empath would be able to do to my Sorcerer. Their CS is too low to ward and their AS wouldn't hurt in the least.
I know that they'd dispel, but that's just giving the opposition time to decide how to disect the Empath.

Forgive me for only dueling as a Sorcerer. I didn't research this as anyother profession.
Umm, except ranger >Evarin. :)

[Czeska]

My empath could bolt the fuck out of a like level sorcerer, and has done it several times. Sorry dear.

[Janarth]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Janarth
As a 1x in perception pure, with 402 up, I also don't think any rogue under my training should be cutthroating me very much.Ok, if my warrior can 1x in harness power and completely neutralize implosion's affects.

Let me read to you from the Book of Spiegel:

"You're not a chameleon you know, you can't see everywhere at once."

You do have the power to to neutralize (unfocused implosion) . In fact, your warrior has access to two spells. As for focused...you can shoot first with any of your disabling cmans. I unfortunatly, have a much tougher time finding the hidden rogue.

[Janarth]

Originally posted by Czeska
My empath could bolt the fuck out of a like level sorcerer, and has done it several times. Sorry dear.

Was that a runestaff sorcerer? And who the heck trained said sorcerer.

[Janarth]

Originally posted by Warriorbird

Implosion is THE most overpowered focused spell in the game. There is no other attack/spell with better success rates against a like-leveled player.

Gosh. Something even I can agree with T+S over.

Open is even more powerful, being the most overpowered attack in the entire game.

I have an idea. You scream bloody murder about my spell, and I'll go whip up a campaign against cutthroat. When we're done, we'll move on to feint and dark catalyst, etc etc, and by the time we're done, only my alterations will make me a sorcerer, your drooling will make you a warrior, and we'll both be hunting rats with sticks pushing "attack rat" over and over again. Oh yes, make everyone "balanced".

IT IS BALANCED. ANY LIKE LIKE PROFESSION CAN KILL THE OTHERS WITH A MINIMAL AMOUNT OF THOUGHT AND THE FIRST MOVE.

Now stop complaining or they will neuter all of us.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Janarth
In fact, your warrior has access to two spells.So use sunburst. What's the problemo?

[Czeska]

Originally posted by Janarth

Originally posted by Czeska
My empath could bolt the fuck out of a like level sorcerer, and has done it several times. Sorry dear.

Was that a runestaff sorcerer? And who the heck trained said sorcerer.

Never looked, honestly. But she can bolt kill what she can't CS kill with very little problem.

[Warriorbird]

I have an idea. You scream bloody murder about my spell, and I'll go whip up a campaign against cutthroat. When we're done, we'll move on to feint and dark catalyst, etc etc, and by the time we're done, only my alterations will make me a sorcerer, your drooling will make you a warrior, and we'll both be hunting rats with sticks pushing "attack rat" over and over again. Oh yes, make everyone "balanced".

IT IS BALANCED. ANY LIKE LIKE PROFESSION CAN KILL THE OTHERS WITH A MINIMAL AMOUNT OF THOUGHT AND THE FIRST MOVE.

Now stop complaining or they will neuter all of us.

Hold back on the rage, man! It must be still working in insurance!

Implode is grossly overpowered. I've never suggest that Focus Implosion be nerfed, however. Heck, I've even hunted with it.

I'm not the one who's whining about PvP balance. I think apart from Bards or Paladins everyone has it pretty good there.

I think extra powerful things make the game fun, not bad. I think, if anything (apart from the notion that the game would REALLY be point and click) that's the failing of GS4.

[Edited on 11-15-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Janarth]

I love insurance, everything is tranquil...

Back on topic. No rage Warriorbird, I just feel like the point of my posts is being overlooked. I guess I treat 720 like wizards treat cone, don't touch it. Yes I agree with you, powerful things make the game fun. But one class more powerful than the others, or a ranking system where A can beat B, but C can beat A and B, and D can beat them all, sucks. I'm just saying, everyone is equal now. Don't go and remove the fun stuff from the game.

Originally posted by Janarth
I love insurance, everything is tranquil...

Back on topic. No rage Warriorbird, I just feel like the point of my posts is being overlooked. I guess I treat 720 like wizards treat cone, don't touch it. Yes I agree with you, powerful things make the game fun. But one class more powerful than the others, or a ranking system where A can beat B, but C can beat A and B, and D can beat them all, sucks. I'm just saying, everyone is equal now. Don't go and remove the fun stuff from the game.


I wasn't suggesting that implosion be downtweaked--I was just saying that sorcerors that think that focused implosion isn't overpowered for like-level PvP are deluding themselves. It's okay to have that defense mechanism, but it's just not the truth.

You are also trying to prove your point by comparing apples to oranges. For example, your defense is to bring up CMAN's, and mention that a pure has problems defending them from a square. You completely ignore the fact that a like level warrior that learns the same skills will be immune to the CMAN. You also conveniently forget that a semi that has the CMAN mastered is nearly immune to the CMAN (disarm for example).

There is nothing anyone can train in, and there are no stats that can effect, and there is no profession that you can choose to lessen the effect of focused implosion. I hope you now realize the fundamental flaw in your argument. :D

Even obscene amounts of crit padding due little if anything to protect from an implosion.

So again, I want to make clear before you start foaming at the mouth that I don't suggest that implosion should be downtweaked. I just ask that you don't ignore or obscure the plain facts, or offer silly arguments as to why it is balanced for PvP.

[AnticorRifling]

I guess I treat 720 like wizards treat cone, don't touch it.


____________________________________

Yeah they should make 720 unusable in invasions :cool:

[Asha]

Simply put.
It isn't balanced for PvP becouse Sorcerers are to be feared. :)
Implosion saved the world once, not CMAN feint!

It'll never be nerfed.
The end.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Czeska
My empath could bolt the fuck out of a like level sorcerer, and has done it several times. Sorry dear.

Stop trying to scare my Sorc!

Bully! :cry:

[Czeska]

Hey, she's no bully! She's just .. um.. not always all that nice?

Did i crush you at that merchant ? DID I? NO!

[Janarth]

Why must you need a "anti implosion skill" to feel like you can defend against it. You have dozens of skills that stop implosion. Cutthroat, feint, garrote, 417, 119, hiding and sneaking away, song of noise, sanct, invisibility, subdue, sweep, tackle...need I go on? Just because you can't train in specific skill that only exists to thwart implosion, doesn't mean its overpowered. Can Pures train in any specific skill that will stop cmans? Technically, yes, but in practice, no.

Anyways, I'm done with this thread. I think we've reached the point where we understand the other's argument, and now only perception and bias remain.

[Warriorbird]

Can Pures train in any specific skill that will stop cmans? Technically, yes, but in practice, no.

Yes, actually. Magic item use. Glass amulet up! In town a like level square isn't gonna be able to do much without going to jail.

A Ranger? That's another story, but that's the cool trick Rangers get.

:grins:

Don't take it so hard. I think pures have just as large a toolbox as squares do. Apart from Bards and Paladin, I think people actually are pretty balanced PvP wise. Everyone has nice alpha strike moves.

[Edited on 11-18-2005 by Warriorbird]

[Janarth]

Warriorbird's last post-
I agree with that ;) I'll let the bard and paladin discussion go until next week, then we can get our hearts pumping on that discussion, but right now I'm too tired. hehe

[Kainen]

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
I guess I treat 720 like wizards treat cone, don't touch it.


____________________________________

Yeah they should make 720 unusable in invasions :cool:

and meteor swarm too