Manipulation Lore or More Empath Ranks?

[Zhiart]

I'm switching from bolting to pure warding, and wasn't sure if I should get manip lore or dump those points into more spell ranks. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Zhiart (at level 72), your base skill bonuses, ranks and goals are:
Skill Name | Actual Actual
| Bonus Ranks Goals In-Game Time to Goal
Armor Use..........................| 40 8 8
Physical Fitness...................| 322 222 222
Arcane Symbols.....................| 105 25 25
Magic Item Use.....................| 150 50 50
Spell Aiming.......................| 224 124.384 0 106 days, 9 hours, 10 minutes
Harness Power......................| 172 72 72
Mental Mana Control................| 126 33.900 24 2 days, 16 hours, 47 minutes
Spirit Mana Control................| 173 73.994 70 9 hours, 59 minutes
Spiritual Lore - Blessings.........| 165 65 65
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 70 15.225 0 21 days, 2 hours, 30 minutes
Mental Lore - Manipulation.........| 15 3 21 ASAP (will rise when points are available)
Mental Lore - Telepathy............| 15 3.450 0 1 day, 3 hours, 17 minutes
Mental Lore - Transformation.......| 165 65 65
Survival...........................| 120 30 30
Perception.........................| 174 74 74
Climbing...........................| 120 30 30
Swimming...........................| 50 10 10
First Aid..........................| 248 148 148

Spell Lists
Major Spiritual....................| 27 40 ASAP (will rise when points are available)

Spell Lists
Minor Spiritual....................| 40 40

Spell Lists
Empath.............................| 92 93 ASAP (will rise when points are available)
Training Points: 7 Phy 0 Mnt (1678 Phy converted to Mnt)

[audioserf]

Get the spell ranks. I'm at 78 without a lick of any lores and whoop the shit out of everything (barring the few immune creatures, obviously - but I just don't hunt those) with 1106/1115. Spell split is 40/48/140 MjS/MnS/Empath at this point.

There's no replacement for CS.

[Zhiart]

Damn dude, the 140 empath ranks sounds very nice. I heal a lot though, so transformation is nice to have. I will probably back it down some as I gain those RT reductions from trains. Why the 48 ranks of MnS? Extra DS?

[audioserf]

Yeah I don't care about healing at all. I heal myself, and others only if nobody else is around to do it. I don't mind the RT.

The MnS is for extra DS. I'm working torward a 67/70/166 MjS/MnS/Empath split which I will wrap up very shortly after capping, along with 303 PF, and then I'll start thinking about lores and spell aiming etc.

[audioserf]

Also, at cap, it's 57 Transformation ranks for no RT on healing. Maybe shoot for that and live with a bit more RT in the short term.

[Zhiart]

Thanks for that info on transformation lores, I was wondering what that number was. I'll set it for that and enjoy the extra CS for now.

[ctsfinest]

I've read that 30 perception is "enough to get by". Is this an accurate statement? Also, is it beneficial to go 1x or 2x harness power? I'm currently 2x but after seeing this I'm definitely interested in jacking up my empath spell ranks to sacrifice the ranks in 2x HP. I'm going to stick to 2x PF until cap, or is it better to start 3x now?

[Zhiart]

More spell ranks = More CS = Less need for the extra mana from 2x HP, and you'll kill stuff much faster. I'd definitely just 1x it. I 1x perception to help with bandits so I don't walk into their traps. 2x PF is fine unless you're GOS in which case your stamina converts into your mana. 3X will get you some extra CM defense and extra stamina, but I wouldn't say it's required.

[ctsfinest]

Interesting point. I think I would probably lose what, 50 or so mana from dropping to 1x? I have the extra fixskills that has to be used before May...might as well give it a whirl!

[audioserf]

I'm COL, so I never needed more than 1x HP. I reckon it's a poor use of TPs beyond 1 rank per level.

PF is so cheap for an empath that I would view it was irresponsible to be under 2x. 3x is really nice, but you will do fine without it. (I'm close to 3x myself)

I'm kind of big on ancillary skills. 1x perception, FA, survival, .5x swim/climb. I hate not being able to pretty effortlessly get where I'm going anywhere in the game. You can for sure get by with less than I've done. I would say 1x perception is a good idea for maneuvers, though.

[Zhiart]

Go for a minimum of train+21 on empath circle to get the most bang for your buck in CS.

[ctsfinest]

I will plan to use my fixskills later today to achieve this. I appreciate the insight. Hunting as an empath is a lot of fun and I hope this build will allow me to overhunt a little bit now. (currently hunting seekers/tigers in Pinefar at level 57, lots of fun and money)

I'm currently +22 empath spells right now, but if I take away lores, drop to 1x HP and move around some other skills I'm probably not using/ever going to need, I hope it boosts my CS by another 30 points or so. It is +1 CS for each additional spell rank above what I have now, correct? I believe my current spell ranks are 25 MjS/30 MnS/79 empath.

[Zhiart]

There are diminishing returns on spell ranks to CS above train. Up to train, it's +1CS per rank. Above train you get a total of 16 from +21 ranks. Above that is less, but I'm not sure on the formula. It's on the wiki somewhere. At 57 your current spell training isn't bad at all. You can just get a bit extra from doing 1x HP.

[ctsfinest]

OK - perhaps I'll focus on increasing my MnS a bit more to get the extra DS benefit. I was just intrigued by having 140 empath spells at level 78 since that is much more than +21!

[Zhiart]

https://gswiki.play.net/mediawiki/index.php/Casting_strength

The formula is there. So 140 ranks at 78 will nearly net you 1 CS for every 2 ranks above 99. So that's an extra 20 CS or so. That's a lot.

[elcidcannon]

You don't need any more the 60 spell ranks past your level. Up to that point, you're getting 0.5 CS/spell rank...over 60 ranks it drops to .25/spell rank.
Your secondary circles add .333/spell rank up to 2/3 your level.

So, for audioserf to max his CS would be:

Primary: 138
MjS: 42
MnS: 48

Which is basically what he has...but adds .166 CS :-)

[ctsfinest]

Understood. I took the formulas from the wiki and made a quick spreadsheet to play around with so I can determine what would be the ideal allocation amongst spell ranks.