Haste (535)

[Taluric]

A new spell, Haste, has been implemented in spell slot 535. Portions of the implementation are drawn from the old Haste spell previously in slot 506.

Haste reduces all RoundTimes except for the offensive combat actions, and selected utility actions, that are affected by the Celerity spell. It is a standard duration stackable spell (base 1200 seconds + 60 seconds per known Major Elemental spell) and is self-cast only. Example areas of RoundTime reduction are the imposed RoundTime from offensive maneuvers carried out against the caster, or the movement RoundTime incurred when traversing certain obstacles.

The RoundTime reduction is a percentage calculated by: (80 - (1 per 5 known Major Elemental spells) - (1 per 5 ranks of Elemental Lore: Air)), with known Major Elemental Spells capped at level. The reduction bottoms out at 40%.

This message was originally posted in Wizards, Wizard Spells. To discuss the above, follow the link below.

http://forums.play.net/forums/19/237/2647/view/1482


http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/GemStone%20IV%20Announcements/Important%20Announcements/view/2415

[time4fun]

Is the sky falling yet?

[Tgo01]

So...535 is officially completely useless as a level 35 spell? Am I right? Is this for real? Am I on candid camera?

[time4fun]

So...535 is officially completely useless as a level 35 spell? Am I right? Is this for real? Am I on candid camera?

Oh yay, here's the part where wizards complains about a spell the rest of us would kill for

*grabs popcorn*

[Tgo01]

Oh yay, here's the part where wizards complains about a spell the rest of us would kill for

*grabs popcorn*

You would kill for this level 35 spell? Care to explain why? I'm all ears.

[Tgo01]

Oh yay, here's the part where wizards complains about a spell the rest of us would kill for

*grabs popcorn*

Don't you play a cleric? Would you trade this level 35 spell for 319? It's 16 spell levels higher, surely it's better!!!

[MrMortimur]

Self cast, for non warmages, isn't this only a good thing? I mean the rest of us lose out on having haste available to us. But for any player of just a wizard this looks like a solid buff.

[Viekn]

I quit Gemstone. I'm going back to playing Minesweeper.

[Fallen]

They're trying to maintain the defensive aspect of the spell. I'd have to look at the old formula, but the capped 40% reduction seems to be shittyish.

[Tgo01]

But for any player of just a wizard this looks like a solid buff.

It's a complete nerf. Hardly anything is affected by this spell now and it's capped at a 40% roundtime reduction with no flat roundtime reductions.

For example before a wizard with 24 air ranks and 51 major elemental spell ranks could reduce a 60 second roundtime to 33 seconds.

Now the exact same wizard with the exact same skills can reduce a 60 second roundtime to 39 seconds.

The only saving grace is it's a stackable spell now and since you can spell up while not in combat the mana cost doesn't really matter anymore (unless you're dispelled while hunting) but at the same time it's a level 35 spell and for a level 35 spell it's pretty lackluster.

[Taernath]

They're trying to maintain the defensive aspect of the spell. I'd have to look at the old formula, but the capped 40% reduction seems to be shittyish.

Yep. Buff for nonswingers, severe nerf for swingers. I'm not in front of the game or calculator atm, but it looks like 506 would be the warmage version.

[Viekn]

Thread: Haste (535)
Grey Rep
No Comment Made

WTF? Grey rep and no comment made? Make it green or red or leave a comment!

[Tgo01]

Thread: Haste (535)
Grey Rep
No Comment Made

WTF? Grey rep and no comment made? Make it green or red or leave a comment!

It's a shy person leaving you green rep but they don't have enough karma/posts/whatever to give you green or red rep.

[Viekn]

It's a shy person leaving you green rep but they don't have enough karma/posts/whatever to give you green or red rep.

Fuck shy people. I'm drunk. You need to come correct. Either give me props or tell me to eat shit. Bring it bitches!

[Fallen]

It'd be nice if there was a lore effecting that 40% floor. If I were a wizard, i'd be asking for some help there.

[Gnomad]

Self cast, for non warmages, isn't this only a good thing? I mean the rest of us lose out on having haste available to us. But for any player of just a wizard this looks like a solid buff.

Except the difference between a level 6 spell and a level 35 spell with 15 (mostly-)dead spell levels before it is quite the change for lower-level wizards. You're almost definitely going to go for 425 and 925 fairly early, so 535 is quite the while's away.

Granted, there's not nearly as many things that'll stack RT on you at that level, but my level 25 wizard won't be seeing it for a long time. Glad I mastered fletching when I did.

[Fallen]

Some good news here:


>Warmages took a defensive hit from the Haste change due to that 40% floor on RT reduction. For big RT calculations, they will be in RT for many seconds longer.

This may not have been clear from the wording in my original post. That 40% floor is the minimum portion of the original RT, not the maximum reduction to the original RT.

Or to put it another way: If you're at that 40% floor and get a 10 second imposed RT, your assessed RT will be 4 seconds (40% of 10), not 6 seconds (which would be a 40% reduction from 10).

The percentage reduction of the original Haste/506 spell was 50%. Haste/535 is 10% better.

>Does new haste work on my gem chisel?

New Haste/535 works on every RT that is not covered by Celerity/506.

[Tgo01]

Some good news here:

The problem is there aren't too many important roundtime instances outside of those affected by celerity. The most obvious and important ones are CMANs directed towards your character but almost everything else is pretty minor and insignificant, like the 20 second roundtime from enchanting.

I'm not saying the new Haste is horrible, it's a pretty decent little spell, I'm just not sure why it's taking up a level 35 spell slot, or why these changes were even needed considering it's still pretty easy to achieve a 1 second swing roundtime as a warmage.

[Fallen]

The problem is there aren't too many important roundtime instances outside of those affected by celerity. The most obvious and important ones are CMANs directed towards your character but almost everything else is pretty minor and insignificant, like the 20 second roundtime from enchanting.

I'm not saying the new Haste is horrible, it's a pretty decent little spell, I'm just not sure why it's taking up a level 35 spell slot, or why these changes were even needed considering it's still pretty easy to achieve a 1 second swing roundtime as a warmage.

This represents a pretty significant blow to non-wizards which made use of Haste due to the cooldown and the defensive benefits removed. They tried to minimize the impact to Wizards, especially Warmages, but doing so cost a 35th level spell slot. For capped Wizards, this is almost a wash.

[Silvean]

I'm not saying the new Haste is horrible, it's a pretty decent little spell, I'm just not sure why it's taking up a level 35 spell slot, or why these changes were even needed considering it's still pretty easy to achieve a 1 second swing roundtime as a warmage.

Others have given this more thought than I but the ability to negate RT from CMs seems huge. Huuuge.

http://www.americasfreedomfighters.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/adonald16.jpg

Huuuuuge.

[Allereli]

Huuuuuge.

YOOOUUUGGE

[Fallen]

Others have given this more thought than I but the ability to negate RT from CMs seems huge. Huuuge.



Huuuuuge.

The thing is, the old Haste already did that. That it is now long duration and can lower big RTs by 10% more than before *to me* is worth giving up a 35th level spell slot.

[Silvean]

The thing is, the old Haste already did that.

So that's why they came swinging a sword at it; they thought old haste did too much.

[Fallen]

So that's why they came swinging a sword at it; they thought old haste did too much.

Eh...I suppose. Like I said elsewhere, if you're a high enough level wizard, this is essentially a wash. I think the biggest nerf came to non-wizards making use of the spell.

[Fallen]

>New Haste/535 works on every RT that is not covered by Celerity/506.

I'll correct myself here -- some RTs are specifically exempted from any haste-like effect. Haste/535 (or any other roundtime-reducing effect) still won't have an effect there. I don't know offhand if gem chisels are exempted from roundtime modifications.

[Tgo01]

The thing is, the old Haste already did that. That it is now long duration and can lower big RTs by 10% more than before *to me* is worth giving up a 35th level spell slot.

Finros or whoever mentioned that was being very misleading. The old formula gave you a 1 second roundtime reduction right off the bat plus another 75% roundtime reduction. With air lore and major elemental ranks you could have a flat 4 second roundtime reduction I do believe (hard to say now since apparently Allereli couldn't wait to change gswiki and delete all the old information). So if we look at a 10 second base roundtime, take away the 4 seconds, then cut it in half, that's a 3 second roundtime. With the new formula being capped at 40% it's a 4 second roundtime.

Of course the nice thing is with the new formula you can achieve this 40% with a combination of air lore and major elemental spell ranks whereas before the percent reduction was solely from major elemental ranks.

ETA: Unless the GM was saying no matter what the reduction was capped at 50% in the old formula, even taking into account the flat time reduction, but I doubt that.

[Tgo01]

I'll correct myself here -- some RTs are specifically exempted from any haste-like effect.

Well shit, and here I was giving them credit in opening up the new Haste to literally every roundtime. So the things that weren't affected by haste before still aren't affected by haste now.

[subzero]

Yep. Buff for nonswingers, severe nerf for swingers. I'm not in front of the game or calculator atm, but it looks like 506 would be the warmage version.

How is it a buff for casters and nerf for melee? For what it is, being a level 35 spell seems a bit high, but it's a defensive spell with standard durations that you can keep active at all times. There's no falling off right before being disarmed or anything like that anymore. Seems nice enough to me.

[Taluric]

Haste provides a wizard with a reduction in roundtime based on the following formula (all fractions are rounded down):
Final RT = (RT - [1 + X + Y]) * (75 - Z)%
X = Air Lore Bonus; Increases by +1 at 24 ranks, 100 ranks, and 200 ranks
Y = Major Elemental Bonus; Increases by +1 at 51 ranks and 100 ranks
Z = Major Elemental Spells Known / 3

That is the old formula.

[Tgo01]

Haste provides a wizard with a reduction in roundtime based on the following formula (all fractions are rounded down):
Final RT = (RT - [1 + X + Y]) * (75 - Z)%
X = Air Lore Bonus; Increases by +1 at 24 ranks, 100 ranks, and 200 ranks
Y = Major Elemental Bonus; Increases by +1 at 51 ranks and 100 ranks
Z = Major Elemental Spells Known / 3

That is the old formula.

Well now I'm kind of curious if the old Haste had a fixed 50% roundtime reduction cap or if the GM who said that just meant the percent part of the formula was capped at 50%, because I'm pretty sure it's the latter.

Meaning a fully maxed out old Haste could reduce a 10 second roundtime to 2 or 3 seconds (depending on the rounding, forget how that works), whereas a fully maxed out new Haste would reduce the 10 second roundtime to 4 seconds.

Not a huge difference either way, I just think the GM was being misleading.

ETA: The new haste would have a better reduction for really large roundtimes, like a 60 second roundtime would be reduced to 24 seconds with new haste but only 27 or 28 with old haste. Then again I'm pretty sure one never receives roundtimes that high from a single action.

[Silvean]

How is it a buff for casters and nerf for melee? For what it is, being a level 35 spell seems a bit high, but it's a defensive spell with standard durations that you can keep active at all times. There's no falling off right before being disarmed or anything like that anymore. Seems nice enough to me.

They could swap around the spell slot with 925 but that might create other problems.

[subzero]

They could swap around the spell slot with 925 but that might create other problems.

Yeah, obviously being in the 535 slot is a limitation based on how they assign spells rather than someone saying, "Oi, this is super powerful. It should be a level 30+ spell!"

[elcidcannon]

How about it's better for wizards because now they're the ONLY ones that can have it.

Everyone else is slower = wizards got better

[Fallen]

How about it's better for wizards because now they're the ONLY ones that can have it.

Everyone else is slower = wizards got better

Well, they lost the ability to cast it on others. Some see being able to help others as a perk.

[Silvean]

How about it's better for wizards because now they're the ONLY ones that can have it.

Everyone else is slower = wizards got better

Feels like a rare hit at MAing. Is this the first time they've made a move where MAing problems seem to be such a significant part of the rationale? Excepting all of the convoluted things they had to implement to make F2P workable.

[Astray]

Is Celerity meant to be a supplement for Warmages or something? It looks like shit.

[Tgo01]

Is Celerity meant to be a supplement for Warmages or something?

Yes.


It looks like shit.

At base it's pretty much useless. It basically requires air lore ranks to be of any use.

[Astray]

Great. Great work there, Simu.

[Velfi]

http://i.imgur.com/0JtJVFo.gif

[subzero]

Is Celerity meant to be a supplement for Warmages or something? It looks like shit.

Basically boils down to 506 = combat haste and 535 = non-combat haste.

[Fallen]

>I'm not comprehending the formula. It looks like training more spells and air lore make the spell less effective to me. Can you please clarify?

I can see how my wording was confusing. Apologies. It would better say "Your final RoundTime is calculated as a percentage of the original according to the formula: (80 - (1 per 5 known Major Elemental spells) - (1 per 5 ranks of Elemental Lore: Air))%, with known Major Elemental Spells capped at level. The minimum percentage is 40%.

Final_RT = ((Original_RT * (80 - (MjE_Ranks / 5) - (EL:A_Ranks / 5))) / 100). As is typical in Gemstone math, all fractions truncate.

----
>Also I remember reading that you said this was intended and normal. But I want to ask whether it makes sense, shouldn't the fact that I have celerity counter the slow effects if I have a "fast enough" haste? I mean I have over 100 MjE and 202 air lore, I can basically reduce like 9+ rt to 1. If I am slowed a little by the environmental effect of the scatter being cold, and my rt increases by +2 and now becomes 6 rt, then my haste should be enough to bring it down to 1.

That's a reasonable argument. I'll consider the possibility of allowing 535 to counter slowdown effects on combat actions.

>It is logically absurd for a slow effect that normally adds maybe 30% more rt to attack now adds 300% if you're using haste.

I will note, however, that selectively choosing to report times as either percentages or as an absolute number of seconds, depending on which one makes your example look more extreme, isn't going to trick me into thinking an argument makes any more or less sense. I don't remember offhand if you specifically are flipping back and forth, but I have noticed others doing it.

Combined a couple quotes on the same topic.

[SashaFierce]

How about it's better for wizards because now they're the ONLY ones that can have it.

Everyone else is slower = wizards got better

This isn't completely true.

Everyone has a version of haste now. Quickstrike.

It's just that wizards get a free version of quickstrike through 506.

[Fallen]

>Seems i keep getting dispelled by my group members by them using Tonis, while i have 535 up. They cast Tonis and i lose haste? I'm wondering if that was per your design, or a bug.

More like an oversight, which I plan to consider this weekend. You're only allowed one magical slow/haste and one physical slow/haste effect at a time. Previously to 535, such effects were always of short duration, which meant that magnitude always won. A stronger effect supersedes a lesser one and opposite effects of equal or stronger absolute magnitude cancel out what already exists. Now that 535 is a long-duration spell, I should probably exempt it from being superseded by a much shorter duration spell, and update the strength calculations otherwise.

>Also, haste/celerity use to give the wizard the option of using their magic versus a inferior caster.

This decision is always troublesome, and can go either way. With a short duration (60 second) effect, are you better off by retaining a stronger version that only has 5 seconds left on the clock, or a slightly weaker version that will renew at 60? The standard is usually to go with magnitude, but I flipped that around for 506 to go with duration. The reason there is because magnitude is harder to compute with EL:A and MjE ranks both counting in different parts of a formula. If one caster had +1 ranks of EL:A compared to the other, and the other had +30 ranks of MjE compared to the first, which one is of greater magnitude? It can be argued either way. Duration is at least a straight comparison. (This ties into the comments on 535, by the way -- if you have 4 hours of weakish 535, you probably want to keep it instead of a one-minute shot of Tonis; but if you have 80 weakish seconds of 535 remaining, maybe you want Tonis after all? It's a judgment call that isn't practical to set on a personal basis, which means we need to make a universal standard).

Incidentally, you don't need to post a second thread within fourteen hours of the first, if you haven't been answered yet. Give it at least a day or two -- and use the same thread if you do bump it.


I guess this post could have gone in either the 535 or the 506 thread.

[Fallen]

Haste will now offset any slowdown effects applied to combat actions (but will still not improve roundtimes beyond the original amount when doing so). The relative strength calculations have also been updated so that the spell is no longer automatically removed by other effects like Tonis or Lullabye. Note that there is still a strength comparison check, so 535 isn't automatically safe from being removed by a countering slow effect. (I do believe that a maximum-strength 535 is stronger than any slowdown effect, however).