Making a Murderer

[elcidcannon]

Anyone seen it? Thoughts?

I'm two episodes in, and hooked. My wife and a couple friends have watched it and have said it's incredibly frustrating and angering (if you're a fan of justice). I saw a couple news clips yesterday evening about how this Netflix series is possibly "leading to a convicted murderer going free." I'm going to try to watch with an open mind...seems like it's a pretty polarizing story.

[drauz]

Anyone seen it? Thoughts?

I'm two episodes in, and hooked. My wife and a couple friends have watched it and have said it's incredibly frustrating and angering (if you're a fan of justice). I saw a couple news clips yesterday evening about how this Netflix series is possibly "leading to a convicted murderer going free." I'm going to try to watch with an open mind...seems like it's a pretty polarizing story.

I've heard that they left out key pieces of evidence in this series. Haven't watched it, just heard that on the radio this morning.

[Taernath]

It's an interesting series. I think that to believe Avery is innocent you need to accept that there was this huge conspiracy across almost all levels of the state investigation, and that never really was laid out. They still found Halbach's remains on his property, along with her car and some other evidence. Where did all that come from? Did the investigators find it somewhere else and bring it there? Avery's defense boiled down to 'I don't know' and 'It's a conspiracy'.

The investigators certainly did things wrong (I really didn't like the interviewed confession of the nephew) but their case was believable.

Fuck those guys from the 1985 case though, they need to be prosecuted.

[Amerek]

They killed that poor girl. She was receiving phone calls from someone creepy - that was Avery. Also, they failed to mention that Avery had purchased handcuffs and restraints merely a week before it all happened. The Netflix show clearly left out details and was made to get people riled up.

[elcidcannon]

They killed that poor girl. She was receiving phone calls from someone creepy - that was Avery. Also, they failed to mention that Avery had purchased handcuffs and restraints merely a week before it all happened. The Netflix show clearly left out details and was made to get people riled up.

you mean the pink sex cuffs?

I'm skeptical from the lack of other DNA evidence. None of Halbach's DNA was in the bedroom or in the garage. And if they cut her hair like he said, that shit'd be everywhere....I can see there not being a strand somewhere. No bloodstains after cutting her throat....no splatter from the gunshot in the garage. All very strange to me.

[Whirlin]

It's spiritually similar to Serial... a podcast done by NPR a while back
https://serialpodcast.org/

[elcidcannon]

It's spiritually similar to Serial... a podcast done by NPR a while back
https://serialpodcast.org/

I'm currently listening to the lastest season about Bergdahl....pretty interesting.

[caelric]

you mean the pink sex cuffs?

I'm skeptical from the lack of other DNA evidence. None of Halbach's DNA was in the bedroom or in the garage. And if they cut her hair like he said, that shit'd be everywhere....I can see there not being a strand somewhere. No bloodstains after cutting her throat....no splatter from the gunshot in the garage. All very strange to me.

You are incredibly naive if you think he is innocent. It's all purely done, as was said, to get people riled up and generate ratings. He is as guilty as he'll and was found so in a court of law.

[elcidcannon]

You are incredibly naive if you think he is innocent. It's all purely done, as was said, to get people riled up and generate ratings. He is as guilty as he'll and was found so in a court of law.

I don't necessarily believe he's innocent, but I sure do believe there's reasonable doubt of him doing it.

[Parkbandit]

I don't necessarily believe he's innocent, but I sure do believe there's reasonable doubt of him doing it.

You were the target audience.

[Taernath]

I don't necessarily believe he's innocent, but I sure do believe there's reasonable doubt of him doing it.

So what scenario do you think occurred? I know that if a body were found in my backyard, burned in a firepit after I was known to have had a bonfire, along with DNA evidence placing me at the scene I'd better have a better alibi than a couple of phone calls where I don't sound out of breath.

[Parkbandit]

So what scenario do you think occurred? I know that if a body were found in my backyard, burned in a firepit after I was known to have had a bonfire, along with DNA evidence placing me at the scene I'd better have a better alibi than a couple of phone calls where I don't sound out of breath.

Didn't you know the entire state of Texas was against him? They all conspired!

[caelric]

The show is like a defense team preparing their entire argument, with no chance for the prosecution to contest any of the omitting of evidence, false arguments, etc... If you can't see that, then I worry about you. You in general.

[Taernath]

Didn't you know the entire state of Texas was against him? They all conspired!

Yeah, it would have been several DAs, two police/sheriffs departments, a few crime labs, and the state supreme court. A conspiracy that big would fall apart under its own weight.

I could see individual pieces of evidence being questionable, like the key. But the state's case wasn't built around that. Even with the vial of blood all the defense managed to show was that it had -possibly- been tampered with at some point in the past. Even without all that, the bullet that was found was determined to have been fired from Steven Avery's gun.

[elcidcannon]

So what scenario do you think occurred? I know that if a body were found in my backyard, burned in a firepit after I was known to have had a bonfire, along with DNA evidence placing me at the scene I'd better have a better alibi than a couple of phone calls where I don't sound out of breath.

The cool thing is I don't need to have a theory for what happened. Without his nephew's confession, there's not enough evidence to convict him; the detectives put nearly every word of his confession into his mouth. There was also no DNA evidence that he was ever at Avery's that night.

[Warriorbird]

I think he did it. Simultaneously I think the case was handled terribly and the first worse.

[Parkbandit]

The cool thing is I don't need to have a theory for what happened. Without his nephew's confession, there's not enough evidence to convict him

Buuuuut... he was convicted....

[Taernath]

The cool thing is I don't need to have a theory for what happened. Without his nephew's confession, there's not enough evidence to convict him; the detectives put nearly every word of his confession into his mouth. There was also no DNA evidence that he was ever at Avery's that night.

Are you talking about the nephew or uncle? Because I think the uncle did it, but the nephew at the very least should get a new trial. I don't think that 'confession' was even admitted into the uncle's trial, but was the sole basis for the nephew's conviction.

[Taernath]

I think he did it. Simultaneously I think the case was handled terribly and the first worse.

It's unfortunate that the show is taking a clear side in this rather than highlighting the limitations of the courts and police corruption.

[elcidcannon]

Buuuuut... he was convicted....

What I meant was: I wouldn't have thought there was enough evidence to convict him.

[elcidcannon]

Are you talking about the nephew or uncle? Because I think the uncle did it, but the nephew at the very least should get a new trial. I don't think that 'confession' was even admitted into the uncle's trial, but was the sole basis for the nephew's conviction.

Wasn't the nephew's story the subject of a press conference in which the lead prosecuting attorney pretty much described how the murder played out (according to the confession)? And that happened right at the time Avery was arrested. That story was the timeline/scenario the prosecution based their case on.

On another note, I'm pretty shocked that the court was able to find an "impartial" jury in his county.

[elcidcannon]

My last reps:

Thread: Making a Murderer
Here's enough shart rep to convict you.
01-12-2016 02:11 PM

Thread: Fun in TSC
poop your pants
01-08-2016 12:38 PM

It's normally months before I can neg rep someone twice. I can only imagine how sad Wrathbringer's life is that he spends all his time giving out enough shart-rep to tag me twice in 4 days.

[caelric]

Just so you know, he shartreps both sides, as I got some from him, as well.

[elcidcannon]

Just so you know, he shartreps both sides, as I got some from him, as well.

Oh yeah, I'm sure he does. I'm just imagining the time spent mindlessly shart-repping....for the sole purpose of continuing to shartrep lol

[Taernath]

Wasn't the nephew's story the subject of a press conference in which the lead prosecuting attorney pretty much described how the murder played out (according to the confession)? And that happened right at the time Avery was arrested. That story was the timeline/scenario the prosecution based their case on.

It was initially, then they shifted at some point from her being killed in the trailer to being killed in the garage. You'll notice that Avery and Dassey were convicted of different things at separate trials: Avery for murder, a firearms offense (stemming from the gun which the show largely passes over), and kidnapping, with Dassey getting murder, mutilation of a corpse, and sexual assault. That was because the confession of Dassey was only used in his trial, and was being pushed by Dassey's original defense lawyer.

[Warriorbird]

Brendan's half-brother made a rap called "They Didn't Do It." I feel bad for him.

https://soundcloud.com/braddasseymusic/brad-dassey-they-didnt-do-it

[drauz]

Looks like he is filing an appeal based on all this.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/9b034479be414293a8a571eac12c7a93/making-murderer-subject-steven-avery-files-appeal

[Taernath]

Sounds like he might have fired his new lawyer.

[Latrinsorm]

Buuuuut... he was convicted....A conviction is no more evidence of guilt than the lack of conviction is evidence of innocence. We should always remember that 50% of Indiana death row inmates were found to be innocent (not "not guilty", innocent) once modern DNA evidence was applied.

I don't have anything to say about the specifics of this case, I'm just pointing out that people are convicted without the evidence to convict them all the time. That's why we have an appeals system, and why even it fails so frequently.

[Soulance]

You thinking of the guy and the kid who happened to pass by one another at the same time on the road? The defense asked him about the 22 handgun he was selling?

My money is on him. Avery is too dumb to do all those things and then clean it all up after himself. And that Brandon Nephew, I feel bad for him.

The legal system failed drastically in this whole situation. I definitely think there's something going on with all those Police. And the FBI figured it out too. If those two Cops were convicted, anyone who comitted a crime/arrested in that County would have a lawsuit fest on them. The FBI saw this and tossed in their two cents to stop it all and keep things quiet.

I'm sure I haven't seen all of the evidence and will have to try to find the Court Documents one day, but there is more than enough there to cast major doubt on the whole thing.

[drauz]

I'm sure I haven't seen all of the evidence and will have to try to find the Court Documents one day, but there is more than enough there to cast major doubt on the whole thing.

Thats why our courts have two sides present their case and not just one. They didn't show the whole case only parts that would help their side.

[Soulance]

I guess Dateline just aired something about it but I missed it. I finally finished the series....

So what about this Fat Kratz guy? He's busted for being leud and sexting with many girls coming out against him. He's a piece of dirt.

Aside from that, I noticed that the girls he seemed interested in were about the same "type" as that Theresa lady. Where was Fatz on Oct 31st, 2005??

I think something happened in that quarry, then the vehicle was brought into the Avery Salvage Yard. It was laughable as to how they tried to "hide" the car with those sticks as well. Waaaaay to many holes in this case and openings where things could have happened after Avery was arrested.

[Soulance]

....and, some guy who fills up his eqipment daily @ 3:30p recalls seeing the Rav driving away from the yard. Didn't see who was in it though....

[Jarvan]

I guess Dateline just aired something about it but I missed it. I finally finished the series....

So what about this Fat Kratz guy? He's busted for being leud and sexting with many girls coming out against him. He's a piece of dirt.

Aside from that, I noticed that the girls he seemed interested in were about the same "type" as that Theresa lady. Where was Fatz on Oct 31st, 2005??

I think something happened in that quarry, then the vehicle was brought into the Avery Salvage Yard. It was laughable as to how they tried to "hide" the car with those sticks as well. Waaaaay to many holes in this case and openings where things could have happened after Avery was arrested.

Please don't use a fake documentary as anything but entertainment.

[Warriorbird]

Neither the documentary or the prosecutor are particularly credible which sort of makes random laypeople just as credible, so if they want to speculate, why not?

[Soulance]

Please don't use a fake documentary as anything but entertainment.
Not exactly sure how it is fake. They just used actual footage and documents from the trial itself. They didn't recreate the crime in any form. I get that the filmmakers wanted to tell a good story and make it appealing to those watching. Sure, it could be possible he's guilty. I doubt it because what they are saying he did, I don't think he could do it all just from a mental standpoint let alone what happened with his Nephew or whatever he is. And, there is tons of reasons for the County and State to want to bury this bigtime. But you're right, law enforcement is always right.

[Taernath]

I don't think he could do it all just from a mental standpoint let alone what happened with his Nephew or whatever he is.

He was charged with other crimes that the documentary only touched on or didn't mention at all. He had convictions for burglary, animal cruelty (where he actually poured gasoline on his cat and threw it into a fire rather than what he claimed in the documentary), and that incident where he ran his cousin off the road and threatened her with a gun. He was also accused of a different rape and his nephew said he molested him, though these two are questionable. Dude is dumb as hell but also unhinged. I could definitely see him murdering someone.

[Jarvan]

Not exactly sure how it is fake. They just used actual footage and documents from the trial itself. They didn't recreate the crime in any form. I get that the filmmakers wanted to tell a good story and make it appealing to those watching. Sure, it could be possible he's guilty. I doubt it because what they are saying he did, I don't think he could do it all just from a mental standpoint let alone what happened with his Nephew or whatever he is. And, there is tons of reasons for the County and State to want to bury this bigtime. But you're right, law enforcement is always right.

The "documentary" is bullshit.

It's a fluff piece to make the guy look innocent. If it was a REAL documentary, it would have showed both sides, and touched on the actual victim as well.

It's nice that you were taken in by it though. I guess weak minds can't make up their own mind, and need someone else to tell them what they should think.

[Soulance]

I guess weak minds can't make up their own mind, and need someone else to tell them what they should think.
Thanks. Guess I'm a "weak mind." As I said, I know the guy is messed up and has done some serious crap in his past. And I've seen the other material that was left out of the whole trial. Again, I'm not pointing at it to say he's guilty or innocent, I'm saying the way the whole case was handled was BS and that is what this is all about. It is not a "fair trial" by any means. A "weak mind" would take in to effect all of those past items and convict him before this trial even started. So if that was your stance, maybe the weak mind falls in your corner.

This is about this case at this moment. Not about being a twisted individual when he was 16 tossing the cat on the fire. I don't doubt he did some disturbing things during his life. He was locked away for 18 years in prison. That's enough to really screw someone up. Who's not to say that fact didn't make him what he is today? I don't believe for a moment anything that Brendon has submitted as evidence. The kid was barely a functioning child and easily swayed so you can't even admit any of that evidence. They searched the garage before and didn't find anything. Only when they went back later did they find bullets and casings all over. Anyone could have picked one up - it's a junkyard where they shot crap everyday I'm sure. You'd probably find bullet holes and casings all over the place from that gun.

Sure, Avery was twisted and pulled a gun on his own sister - and backed off when he saw the baby in the back seat. It wasn't loaded and he just wanted to scare her because that's all his simple mind could think to do at the moment. Again, he's definitely messed up. There is no denying that.

And again, back to the garage...so they bleached and cleaned up the whole area? They tore up the garage floor cracks trying to find evidence of seepage - ZERO found. They could not have cleaned up that well. AAAAAaaaand, you can tell if something has been bleach cleaned. It's TOO clean at that point. So any luminol test would have shown the place where things were cleaned up.

Yes, he did call her a few times that day. Yes, she was creeped out by him as he came out in his towel to greet her during past exchanges. He IS sick and twisted. I will say I can't explain the sweat under the hood of the car, nor in/on the back of the SUV other than, is it possible for that to be planted by grabbing a dirty shirt or something?

So, thanks for calling me weak minded. Guess I'll go back to drooling on myself just because I don't believe it was a "fair" trial. Hopefully, if you ever get in trouble one day, you get a jury, judge, and law enforcement agency Steven Avery received. Guilty until proven Innocent.

[elcidcannon]

Reasonable doubt. There's more than enough evidence to support the theory that the county set him up.

I'd rather Casey Anthony and a hundred others go free than to send one innocent person to jail.

And speaking of weak minded...how everyone involved painted him as guilty before he was even arrested, much less on trial. Why don't you just fall in line with everyone else waving the "he's guilty" flag without actually looking at the facts. Get back in your herd.

[Soulance]

Reasonable doubt. There's more than enough evidence to support the theory that the county set him up.

I'd rather Casey Anthony and a hundred others go free than to send one innocent person to jail.

And speaking of weak minded...how everyone involved painted him as guilty before he was even arrested, much less on trial. Why don't you just fall in line with everyone else waving the "he's guilty" flag without actually looking at the facts. Get back in your herd.
Let us also add truth from the previous conviction against him - the other guy who actually did the crime went on to do it at least two more times. Had Allen been charged when Avery was, those women wouldn't have also been assaulted.

So, how are you going to feel when this happens again if it hasn't already.

[Jarvan]

Thanks. Guess I'm a "weak mind." As I said, I know the guy is messed up and has done some serious crap in his past. And I've seen the other material that was left out of the whole trial. Again, I'm not pointing at it to say he's guilty or innocent, I'm saying the way the whole case was handled was BS and that is what this is all about. It is not a "fair trial" by any means. A "weak mind" would take in to effect all of those past items and convict him before this trial even started. So if that was your stance, maybe the weak mind falls in your corner.

This is about this case at this moment. Not about being a twisted individual when he was 16 tossing the cat on the fire. I don't doubt he did some disturbing things during his life. He was locked away for 18 years in prison. That's enough to really screw someone up. Who's not to say that fact didn't make him what he is today? I don't believe for a moment anything that Brendon has submitted as evidence. The kid was barely a functioning child and easily swayed so you can't even admit any of that evidence. They searched the garage before and didn't find anything. Only when they went back later did they find bullets and casings all over. Anyone could have picked one up - it's a junkyard where they shot crap everyday I'm sure. You'd probably find bullet holes and casings all over the place from that gun.

Sure, Avery was twisted and pulled a gun on his own sister - and backed off when he saw the baby in the back seat. It wasn't loaded and he just wanted to scare her because that's all his simple mind could think to do at the moment. Again, he's definitely messed up. There is no denying that.

And again, back to the garage...so they bleached and cleaned up the whole area? They tore up the garage floor cracks trying to find evidence of seepage - ZERO found. They could not have cleaned up that well. AAAAAaaaand, you can tell if something has been bleach cleaned. It's TOO clean at that point. So any luminol test would have shown the place where things were cleaned up.

Yes, he did call her a few times that day. Yes, she was creeped out by him as he came out in his towel to greet her during past exchanges. He IS sick and twisted. I will say I can't explain the sweat under the hood of the car, nor in/on the back of the SUV other than, is it possible for that to be planted by grabbing a dirty shirt or something?

So, thanks for calling me weak minded. Guess I'll go back to drooling on myself just because I don't believe it was a "fair" trial. Hopefully, if you ever get in trouble one day, you get a jury, judge, and law enforcement agency Steven Avery received. Guilty until proven Innocent.

I take it you thought OJ was innocent too, and all the evidence was planted by white racist cops.

Also.. I would like to point out 2 things.

1) None of us have seen ALL the evidence. You can find some info online, but not all the info. This entertainment show puts out the defense info as much as possible.

2) If it's SO obivous to you after having watched a few tv shows about the case that he is innocent, or at least there is reasonable doubt, how did 12 people decide there wasn't any?

[Soulance]

I take it you thought OJ was innocent too, and all the evidence was planted by white racist cops.

Also.. I would like to point out 2 things.

1) None of us have seen ALL the evidence. You can find some info online, but not all the info. This entertainment show puts out the defense info as much as possible.

2) If it's SO obivous to you after having watched a few tv shows about the case that he is innocent, or at least there is reasonable doubt, how did 12 people decide there wasn't any?
Nope, OJ is guilty. But, if it don't fit you must aquit!

True, we don't have all of the evidence. I also don't trust all of the evidence. I have been on a jury and also know what it can be like.

It was said by one juror that the other jurors were bargaining just like politicians - you vote yes for this and I'll vote no for that.

Just as the documentary only appeared to show one side in your opinion, so does the media. Everyday they put out new information that would easily point to Avery being guilty. There is no way this trial should have been allowed anywhere near Manitowoc. The jury was tainted well before the trial even started. Before the case even began, jurors were hell bent on a conviction. Yea, real fair.

I think I made it pretty clear that I don't know if he is innocent or not. I'm arguing that it was in no way a fair trial.

[Taernath]

The jury was tainted well before the trial even started. Before the case even began, jurors were hell bent on a conviction.

Other way around. The guy who was released early said it was like 7-3 not guilty at the beginning.

[tyrant-201]

The "documentary" is bullshit.

It's a fluff piece to make the guy look innocent. If it was a REAL documentary, it would have showed both sides, and touched on the actual victim as well.

It's nice that you were taken in by it though. I guess weak minds can't make up their own mind, and need someone else to tell them what they should think.

I'm a huge fan of documentaries. I've found that very few of them present themselves in an unbiased manner. They're generally created to make the audience feel a certain way about a matter.

I think Avery is guilty, but was pretty disturbed about how the case was handled. Lots of shady shit going on there, pretty tough to say he's guilty beyond reasonable doubt with so many errors.

[Latrinsorm]

2) If it's SO obivous to you after having watched a few tv shows about the case that he is innocent, or at least there is reasonable doubt, how did 12 people decide there wasn't any?Innocent people have been sentenced to death by 12 people, many times. The adversarial/jury protocol is by far the best justice system humanity has developed and we should all feel incredibly embarrassed by that fact.

[BigWorm]

I don't understand the people in this thread who simultaneously think that government is comically inept at every level but are also convinced that law enforcement and the legal system (aka the government) are nearly infallible and can do no wrong. IMHO both are corrupt as fuck and in desperate need of reform.

[Soulance]

I don't understand the people in this thread who simultaneously think that government is comically inept at every level but are also convinced that law enforcement and the legal system (aka the government) are nearly infallible and can do no wrong. IMHO both are corrupt as fuck and in desperate need of reform.
Exactly, they're human beings. They're just as fallible as anyone else. If you listen to the end where Kratz gets busted all he can talk about is his reputation. That's all he cares about. And I could see that immediately with that fool Len who was Brendon's appointed Defense lawyer. He actually HELPED the prosecution. He should be immediately disbarred. That is a Federal no-no to go against your own client.


You were spoon fed half the story. Boy, you gobbled it right up!
MMmmmmmm, good stuff. Glad you didn't feed it to me, it'd be laced with razor blades.

[Jarvan]

Nope, OJ is guilty. But, if it don't fit you must aquit!

True, we don't have all of the evidence. I also don't trust all of the evidence. I have been on a jury and also know what it can be like.

It was said by one juror that the other jurors were bargaining just like politicians - you vote yes for this and I'll vote no for that.

Just as the documentary only appeared to show one side in your opinion, so does the media. Everyday they put out new information that would easily point to Avery being guilty. There is no way this trial should have been allowed anywhere near Manitowoc. The jury was tainted well before the trial even started. Before the case even began, jurors were hell bent on a conviction. Yea, real fair.

I think I made it pretty clear that I don't know if he is innocent or not. I'm arguing that it was in no way a fair trial.

Just about every trial in the past 10 years with even a hint of media coverage is tainted really. Look at the Baltimore trials in the Freddy Grey case. Honestly tell me you think you can find 12 people that don't have an opinion one way or another before going in. Not possible anymore.

[Soulance]

Just about every trial in the past 10 years with even a hint of media coverage is tainted really. Look at the Baltimore trials in the Freddy Grey case. Honestly tell me you think you can find 12 people that don't have an opinion one way or another before going in. Not possible anymore.
I would say you're probably right. Social media is crazy and it can be hard to miss a story like this.

Funny thing is, I live less than 100 miles from Manitowoc and haven't heard of this case ever until now. They just need to go outside the jurisdiction a bit more and you'll find people for sure. Of course local news will carry it.

You should be tried in your border state in my opinion. Less of a chance of media information interfering with a case unless you are specifically looking for it.

[Soulance]

Watching the Ryan Ferguson on Dateline tonight - wow, strikingly similar. The witness changed his story because of being bullied by the police/investigators.

[Taernath]

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Judge-Overturns-Conviction-for-Making-a-Murderers-Brendan-Dassey-390019181.html


A federal judge in Milwaukee has overturned the conviction of Brendan Dassey, the young man whose case was one of two documented in the Netflix series “Making a Murderer."

Judge William E. Duffin found that investigators repeatedly made false promises to Dassey, who was 16 years old and a slow learner, in extracting a confession, which Dassey's legal team had maintained was coerced. The judge found that confession was involuntary in a 91-page decision handed down Friday.


Season 2 confirmed??